Best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages

[Petro]

     Petro,

    Lets take this one point at at time to avoid confusion.

    You mentioned the "elect". The "elect" are "elected" to something and thats a good place to start. The "elect are elected to Salvation and Eternal life. Lets not add anymore to the "elect" other than election to Salvation and Eternal life.

    Would that definition of the elect, cover the Old Testament Saints, who were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit? Yes. Would that defintion cover the 144,000 witnesses from the 12 tribes of Israel? Yes. Would that definition cover the Church? Yes. Would that definition cover Tribulation Saints? Yes. So far using the definition of the "Elect" as "elected unto Salvation and Eternal life" fits all the different groups that will receive Salvation and Eternal life.

    There is a difference between Old Testament Saints and the Church. The Church is the body of Christ. Old Testament Saints are not part of the body of Christ. The body of Christ is "indwelt with the Holy Spirit, Old Testament Saints were not. Old Testament Saints had an earthly Temple where sacrifices were offered. The Church has no earthly Temple and doesn't offer sacrifices because the Church is the Temple, Church Saints are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, resulting in our bodies becoming the Temple of the Holy Spirit. The Church offers no sacrifice because Jesus is the Sacrifice that ended all other sacrifices. There is a difference between Old Testament Saints and the Church Saints, they can not be lumped together as the body of Christ, they are different entirely.

OK.  I am with you, please do not add anything more to your post.

As I would like to clear this point up.

So what you are saying is the the present day Saints are members of the Body of Christ, is this correct??

And furthermore, are saying, that Abraham and all the men of faith, mentioned in Heb 11; are not members of the Body of Christ??


If so;

How do you arrive at this idea??

Gen 15:6 tells us,

Abraham, believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness.

And if it were not for the NT, we would assume that He just simply believed and worshipped God the Father; yet;

Heb 11, tells us;
8  By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9  By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10  For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
cont'd.............

At Gen 14:8, he (Abraham) met Melchisedek King of Salem, the priest of the most high God. who blessed Abraham, who paid Him tithes.

At Heb 6:20, we read that Jesus "the forerunner is for us who entered in" to that Holy Place (Heb 9:12) into the heavens (Heb 8:1) wherein He "set down at the right hand of the throne of God." (Heb 12:2)

We understand by these things Abraham together with these, believed Jesus, and trusted in Him, note:

Heb 11    cont'd................
11  Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12  Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14  For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15  And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16  But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
17  By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son.
18  Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19  Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
20  By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
21  By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
22  By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
23  By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
24  By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25  Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26  Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompense of the reward.

So you can see, that Abraham,Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses and all these listed at Heb 11, trusted in Jesus, for their salvation, not the law, nor animal sacrifices.

Now at;

Heb 9
24  For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Are these faithful men included??

It is not clear to me, what you are saying about Abraham??  He never sacrificed at any temple, and clearly he believed in God providing His own sacrifice, for a blood offering for the remission of sin.

The scriptures are clear, that we, that are of the same faith as faithfull Abraham are heirs with him of the promises made to His seed, refering to Jesus (Gen 15:18, Gal 3:16)

As I see it, we and Abraham are inseparably linked together at Gal 3:9-18, and this blessing has nothing to do with the nation of Israel.

The Mosaic Levitical sacrificial system of worship had not been establsihed, when God made these promises to Abraham..

Please explain all this, before you move along.

You have said alot, but it needs to be explained.

Thank You,

and God Bless,

Petro




    The 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel are seperate and distinct from the Church. They serve a different role than the Church, and have their own special eternal destiny. They are also seperate from the Old Testament Saints, a group all to themselves.

    Not all those who receive Salvation and Eternal life are part of the Church, the body of Christ. Old Testament Saints are not part of the Church, never were, never will be. Their destiny is the 1000 year earthly millenial kingdom, before Eterity begins.

     Problems arise when you add to much to the meaning of the "elect" and when you try to make all who receive Salvation and Eternal life part of the body of Christ, the Church.

     I'll continue on in my next post.

                                                          Paul2

[Petro]

paul2,

This one verse by itself almost totally rejects the idea, that Jews in other dispensations are not indwelt by the Spirit, I have never seen a verse that says, saints during the tribulation will not be..

Eph 2
11  Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13  But now in Christ Jesus ("in Christ" that is to say, in the body) ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19  Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;


These are powerfull verses, which practically destroy any teaching, jews and gentiles are separate entities, that is to say separate saints, in or out of the church (the body of Christ)

(the rest of the passage)

20  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Look at this last verse, ?

Are tribulation saints, exculded form the indwelling Spirit of God??


These are just simple thoughts off the top of my head I have, without getting into the actual study of this subject.

Blessings,

Petro

[Paul2]

    Petro,

     I read the verses you posted from Ephesians.

    First of all, it seems to me that the point of the verses is there is no difference between Jewish Israelite "Christians" and Gentile "Christians". As I understand it, the Jews spoken of are believers in Jesus Christ and the Gentiles are being told that they are part of the same body as the Jewish Israelite Christians.

    The easy way to make my point is this:

     A Jewish man today, Jewish by heritage, blood, that believes in Jesus is part of the Church and also part of the Remnant of Israel. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile if they are believers in Christ, they are both part of the Church.

     A Jewish man today, Jewish by heritage, blood, and the Jewish religon, that do NOT believe in Jesus, is therefore not in the Church, the body of Christ.

    It seems to me that Ephesians was speaking of believers at the time it was written. The Jews it reffered to were Christian Jews as far as I can tell.

    I don't think Paul was saying that the Jewish people who deny Christ and continued to go to the temple and offer sacrifices were to be considered part of the same body, the Church.

    Old Testament Jews were under the Law, not Grace. Old Testament Jews were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

    Revelation 11 speaks of 2 candlesticks before the Lord on earth which represent the 2 witnesses during the time of their 1,260 days of witnessing. The two witnesses are the 2 candlesticks on earth at that time.

    Revelation 1:20 tells us of 7 candlesticks which represent the 7 churches. Somehow there is a shift from 7 candlesticks representing the 7 Churches to 2 candlesticks representing the 2 witnesses. If the Rapture of the Church occurs in Revelation chapter 4, it would make sense that after all Holy Spirit indwelt Christians were Raptured, that God would send the Holy Spirit to indwell His 2 pre-chosen witnesses to accomplish their mission. Where are the other candlesticks because Revelation 11 tells us that only 2 are on earth and that they no longer represent the Churches but now represent 2 individuals, the 2 witnesses.

     I need to know if you think a Jew that denied Christ, remained Jewish, was part of the Church and reffered to by Paul in the letter to the Ephesians. Or do you recognize that both the Jews and Gentiles Paul was speaking of were both Christian believers.

    Are Jews of today considered by you to be part of the church when they still deny Christ, or are they seperate?

    Can a true Christian who has been indwelt by the Holy Spirit lose his Salvation today?

    Now, what if a Holy Spirit filled Christian were to be alive at the time of AntiChrist's mark of the Beast and accepted the mark? Would Salvation be lost?

    Any who take the mark of the Beast will be lost. If Holy Spirit indwelt Christians all are Raptured prior to the Tribulation and those who were unbelievers become believers, being led by the Holy Spirit as were the Old Testament Saints, but not indwelt by the Holy Spirit as was the Church, Salvation could indeed be lost by those who accept the mark of the beast.

    I'll give you a chance to consider these things and respond before going on. We can't continue until we establish what we believe on these important issues.

                                                      Paul2

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to Paul2,

I think that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is definitely a key issue that may answer a lot of questions. I'm still looking for notes, but I'm afraid that I'll have to start over. I also think that the seal of the Holy Spirit is a key issue in Eternal Salvation versus saved one day and lost the next.  Thus, the Holy Spirit is also a key issue during the Tribulation Period. This is a good way to start. Let me polish up the bifocals and I'll join in as quickly as I can.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Reba]

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit HE indwells the church correct?
   Rapture happens the church is gone  

 

[Reba]

Isa 63:11

11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?
KJV

Ps 51:11

11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
KJV


There is only  one salvation that Salvation is in Jesus the Christ.  There was not another salvation for the  men of old.  There is one Holy Spirit .  There is is one God.   All of Gods people look to the cross forward or backward.  Is dividing Gods people Bibical?

[Paul2]

     When were common men, not the prophets first indwelt by the Holy Spirit? When did men first become the Temple of the Holy Spirit?

    I believe the Bible teaches that at Pentecost right after the death and resurrection of Christ, Peter and the rest of those present first received the Holy Spirit which indwelt them. Jesus promised a helper and at Pentecost the Holy Spirit began to indwell common men.

    The Body of Christ, the Church of Christ, began at Pentecost. The body of Christ serves a purpose. The Church are ambassadors for Christ. The Church is a body of believers that are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, providing bodies for Christ to use to accomplish His will. Theres a purpose for the body of Christ, the Church.
   
    I do not dispute the Salvation of Old Testament Saints. I dispute Old testament Saints being the body of Christ. The Church, the body of Christ, was and is made up of Believers who were or are now living and therefore useful as a body for Christ to use. He equiped His Church with the Holy Spirit to be useful and to have living temples for the Holy Spirit to indwell. Old testament Saints served a purpose but at the time the Church was created, they were not needed bodily. They were dead, those alive at the time of Pentecost that believed became the living body of Christ, the Church.

    Why must those who died before Christ, before the indwelling of man by the Holy Spirit at the creation of the church, be seen as the body of Christ? Christ used living bodies to make up His Church. What need does Christ have of a body that has been dead for centuries at the time of the creation of His Church? What purpose is served by a dead body in a grave? The Old Testaments Saints missions on earth were complete at the time the Church began. The Church is a body of Holy Spirit indwelt living representives, actively serving Christ.

    The 144,000 witnesses from Revelation are distintly from the 12 tribes of Israel. Are they part of the Church? Is there no difference between us and them? Why must everybody be the same. Are there not different classes of Angels? Are the not ArchAngels, Serafin, Cherabin... Why must we see everybody who ever lived and received Salvation as the body of Christ, the Church?

    Are we all Apostles? are we all prophets? If we can see the distiction between these others, why must all be considered the body of Christ, the church?

    The body of Christ, the Church, was different from the Old testament Saints. Peter was not indwelt by the Holy Spirit until Pentecost. Christ created a seperate living body made up of believers to use in the world. Why must those who were dead at the time be considered the same as those who were indwelt by the Spirit with a purpose on earth while they lived?

    What purpose does it serve to have those who are dead and in the grave become part of the Living body of Christ?

    Old Testament Saints don't have living bodies right now. Their bodies are buried in the ground, with their bones turning to dust. They never served as members of the Church while alive, and were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit to be used as the body of Christ were they?

   Did Daniel ever preach the Gospel of Grace? Don't forget that FACT! The body of Christ, the Church, preaches the Gospel of Grace which didn't exist until Pentecost. Moses didn't teach Grace but taught the Law! Grace and the Law can not exist at the same time. If Grace, then the not the Law, if the Law then not Grace! Grace and the Law are opposed to each other. Christ created His Church to preach His Grace, not the Law. How can Old Testament Saints who were under the Law be considered part of the Church under Grace?

    I'll give you a chance to respond. I just don't understand why you feel everybody must be part of the Church which was created with a purpose, to provide living temples for Christ to use to preach the Gospel of Grace.

                                                Paul2

    Where are you Tom? maybe you can explain this better. Theres a reason I'm not posting scripture at this point and its because I want to reason things out, without having to post the entire Bible to make the point.

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to Paul2,

I'm simply looking forward to your presentation, studying this difficult area again, and fellowship in the WORD. I never did consider myself to be strong in this area, so my goal will be to be strengthened in this area. I may be fairly strong is some related topics, but I mainly want to be the student here. I'm fascinated by the puzzle you have put together and want to see the picture opened. I really want to study your picture, learn, and participate any way you want me to.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[nChrist]

Tribulation--The Tribulation is a past event, being fulfilled in the judgement on Jerusalem in A.D. 70.  (Matthew 24:34; 23:36)

Oklahoma Howdy to joelkaki,

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I wouldn't give a single thought to the above. We would simply have to agree to disagree. I couldn't possibly have a serious conversation about that as a premise, so I won't try. Nothing else would make any sense either, so count me out on that discussion.

Tom

[Paul2]

     Joel,

   Thank you, your explainatiom has explained everything I needed to know. I am now able to understand the position you and Reba share and understand why everything I say is viewed as wrong. It all makes sense to me now. I only wish I had known this from the beginning. Of course I'm considered wrong, our views are 180 degrees different.

    Funny thing is I mention Daniel's 70th week over and over in just about every post but nobody has said they believe the 70th week is already completed, which has led to the confusion. By ignoring my use of Daniel's 70th week, I assumed everybody considered it to be in the future. It all makes sense to me now!

                                                        Paul2

[joelkaki]

Oklahoma Howdy to joelkaki,

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I wouldn't give a single thought to the above. We would simply have to agree to disagree. I couldn't possibly have a serious conversation about that as a premise, so I won't try. Nothing else would make any sense either, so count me out on that discussion.

Tom

Howdy to you too (though not from Oklohoma),

I understand why you would say such a thing.  Dispensationalism is so widespread today, together with its future end-times scenario, that views like mine aren't heard of that much.  But as I said to Paul2, your view (pretrib) was not heard of for over 1800 years of church history.  The view I hold to has been held to historically, and is not some newfangled thing.  So I wouldn't dismiss it so lightly.  You can't act like it's crazy and yours is mainstream when yours did not appear for 1800 years of church history and mine has been around a lot longer than that.  But if you personally don't want to discuss it, then there's nothing I can do about it, and I will respect your wishes.  But I think you might be surprised at some of the things Scripture has to say about it.

Joel

[joelkaki]

Joel,

  Thank you, your explainatiom has explained everything I needed to know. I am now able to understand the position you and Reba share and understand why everything I say is viewed as wrong. It all makes sense to me now. I only wish I had known this from the beginning. Of course I'm considered wrong, our views are 180 degrees different.

    Funny thing is I mention Daniel's 70th week over and over in just about every post but nobody has said they believe the 70th week is already completed, which has led to the confusion. By ignoring my use of Daniel's 70th week, I assumed everybody considered it to be in the future. It all makes sense to me now!

                                                        Paul2

OK, good, at least where we know where we are coming from.  
   As to Daniel's Seventieth Week, I see no reason for a gap.  In fact, that is one of my biggest problems with dispensational theology--there are way too many gaps.  A gap is placed in 1 Corinthians 15, in Daniel 9, and in a number of other places.  
   But I would love to discuss these things with you in a reasonable manner if you would like to.

Joel

[Petro]

     Petro,

    Check your flip attitude at the door! You've misquoted me several times and DON"T PAY ATTENTION to what I write. If I have to prove this to you I'll be happy to make up a post quoting you misquoting me! Your attitude toward me is apparently hostile. Your patronizing me while misquoting me is getting old. You can talk to me on YOUR THREAD any way you want but this is MY thread and your attitude is not making these studies easy.

    This is a hot topic right now and a hot thread. Lets not ruin it by being hostile. I'm in the middle of replying to your post but the more I read your posts the more I dislike your attitude. I understand heated debates, I got mad myself not long ago, but I'm not trying to be disrespectful on every post.

   I'm not trying to be disrespectful even though I'm being misquoted. Enough is enough. I will continue on, with you or without you, the choice is yours. I'm not mad right now for the record but I am tired of the attitude toward me in your posts as though I'm so simpleton your humoring. Back off with the tone please.  

                                                        Paul2

Paul 2

I have had phone troubles all day at my home, and although I have two phones I had not been able to access this thread until, now.

Somewhere else you accuse me of being hostile to you, ?? you are dreaming, I am trying to undertsand your understanding of what you are putting out, but you keep talking in circles, semi explaining and then moving on.

It is almost as thou you feel you have to continue re iterating yourself over and over without explaining how you reach conclusions.

Anyway, you can continue without if you desire, I have other things I can work on, anyhow.............

Here, is my answer to your previous reply #195 to me.



I don't see, any reason to continue discussing the rest of your script until we resolve, your  version on your intepretation of the parable of the 10 virgins, and how you move this event to precede the great tribulation of Mat 24.

You said;

posted by Paul2 at reply #195
NO!, No! No!, Let me make this 100% clear. Only the Church believers will be Raptured. Only those indwelt by the Holy Spirit. I do not and have never believed in a partial Rapture with chosen believers left behind. There will be no true believers left behind at the Rapture. NONE, not one, Every Holy Spirit indwelt member of the Church body will be taken at the Rapture.

At one of your previous posts, you stated while referring to the 10 virgins oil, that it represented the Holy Spirit, (notice that all had oil for there lamps, the foolish 5 virgins, didn’t have enough oil,

 What are you implying here??

What does this mean, to you??  

The foolish virgins had some of the Holy Spirit but not enough??

Please explain this, as you go on to infer that they all will be saved, but are presently not saved??  

How do you determine this??

Previously, When I questioned you on this (concerning the parable of the  10 virgins you promptly answered the 5 foolish virgins were not part of the church), then went on to post the web page on marriage customs at your reply #107.

The information provided at this web page fails to mention that there is a period of time from the betrothal to the consummation of this marriage according to OT Biblical Marriage Customs, in the case of Jacob, he labored 7 years for Rachel and 7 years for Leah, and according to the OT it was customary to pay a “bride price” to the father of the bride to seal the marriage agreement (Ex 22:16-17, Deut 22:28-29), this was done at the betrothal, as I understand..

I can see you do, have what appears to be all of the elements of the ends times rapture scenario, covered, I think, you just simply have them out of order, for instance you start at the parable of the 10 virgins, as the day of the rapture,

but;

Somehow or other you must, (and do,) disconnect Chapter 24 of Mathew from Chap 25; yet, the very first word of Chap 25:1, indelibly connects them, note;

In order to make your understanding of this passage in your end times eschatology, you must disconnect it from Chap 24, and re arrange it to make it fit your interpretated understanding of it,  however, the fact you recognize and state, chapter 24 does not concern the church does not discount the fact chap 24 precedes chapter 25 in the order of end times prophecy, actually in doing this, you rearrange the answer the Lord has given us, in order to fit your interpretation of this things.

The NT Greek-English Interlinear reads as follows;

25  Then will be made like the kingdom of the heavens [to] ten virgins who having taken their lamps went forth to meet the bridegroom.[/b]  ..........if you recal this is the point raised by Reba, first.............

The word them[/b] #5119, tote;  tot-eh that of the past or future, also in consecution ei: that time ,then.

Clearly the word tote at the beginning of this  passage is used in the present tense. after these things which were just explained and then in an uninterrupted succesive order, or consecutively at this verse, in a sequential manner to those things which have just occurred according to the Lord. as befalling the earth, which are the signs of His coming leading up this point.  

I know this is a mouthful but, I trust you understand, that if this is so, your rapture does not begin at the beginning of the tribulation but at the end.

Understanding , Mat 24:21-29 is the key to understanding the rest of all these things.

Now you dismiss, Mat 24:29, claiming the chapter is speaking of  the Jews only, interestingly , I assume you do not feel the same way about the parallel passages at Mk 13, Luke 21 however,  this is not in line with the Gospel’s message which is directed to ALL who believe and trust the Lord,

I ask you to, Visualize this for a moment, (this may be a good script), You being a gentile, if you could have asked the Lord then, the same question,;

“Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

What would be His answer be to you, and to me (which would include me and all others in the 21st century, who have no it been born yet..but will have faith to the saving of the soul, at this time, and desire to know these things)  and all other gentile Christians, who at the time this question was raised did not exist;  

I say the answer would be the same one, since the signs leading up to His return involve the Nation of Israel and the Jews....you see??



These verses at Chap 25, is a continuation of what the Lord is teaching at Chap 24,  it is understood, that,  what he is saying follows what he has already said.

This is what you need to get straightened out in your understanding, so that the order of your thoughts you are putting down on paper agree with scripture, not the other way around...

This is why you need a timeline, not a script...the script can come later.

Blessings,  
Petro

[Petro]

We haven't moved at all from where we ended, our last posts concerning the identification of who are identified as the  "called elect chosen saints", and whether these comprise the "church" or not, The body of Christ.

The next question that goes unanswered is "Who is the woman of Rev 12", I maintain she is the woman who produced the Godly seed, which would bruise the serpents head of Gen 3:15, which would be the church, the true children of the promises of God. (Gal 4:22-28)

So, if you are a member of the Body of Jesus, you are included with Issac;

 "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise." (Gal4:28),

and all the children of the promise "are counted for the seed." (Rom 9:6-8)

The most daming information given to us by the scriptures, which deny a secret rapture before the second coming of Jesus to the earth, is given in His own words at Mat 24.

Supposedly the principle teaching for a Pre Tribulation rapture is that only those who look for Jesus's return will be "caught up" into the heavens, yet Jesus said;

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  (Mat 24:27-30)

What I have emboldened is one of the signs of His coming. A heavenly sign which is; "as the lightning cometh out of the east, shineth even unto the west", which causes "all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"

Pre Tribbulation adherents contradict Jesus own words, by teaching His coming is secretive and in the dark. No one will see Him, except the chosen few who are raptured.

John the Apostle said;

Rev 1
7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

And then Jesus follows this by stating;

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Christians do not need to be taken to and fro, with every whim of teaching by the slight of mans interpretations, a simple historical study of the church fathers, and what they believed and taught concerning this matter, reveals the they were futurist and Pre Millennialists, they believed the words of Revelation, the prophecies of Daniel and the warnings and promises of Jesus to refer to definite, literal, future events, and that the Return of Christ would come BEFORE and LEAD TO a literal thousand-year reign of righteousness and peace on earth. There was nothing taught of a Pre Trib Rapture

Pre Tribulation teachings didn't appear on the church scene until the 1830's, when a young 15 year old scottish girl, had visions by the name of Margarte MacDonald.

" that some Christians would see Christ coming, not with the natural eyes, but only with Spiritual eyes...meaning of course that the rest of the world would not see Him.

Most Pre Tribulationists do not even know this (this was an original teaching of the Pre Trib position), and have no real biblical explanation why the rest of the world will not see Him.

Pre-tribulationism was born within a small body of Latter-Rain, Zionist charismatics engaging in false prophecies.

The biggest promoter of this doctrine was a man by the name of Edward Irving who promoted a secret return of Jesus, even the late self styled Patsor Charles Taze Russell, who founded the Watchtower Society (Jehovah Witnesses) predicted an invisible return of Jesus in 1886.

According to;

("The Incredible Cover-up" Dave MacPherson, Omega Publications)

"The rapture is of course not an easy event to counterfeit, but the Latter Rainists are still with us today, stronger than ever, and they are working hard to re-define the rapture, as a transformation event to occur not in the clouds, but on earth as a Rosicrucian-like process called "Manifest Sons of God." In this process, the Christians are supposed to take on amazing bodies while still here on earth, so as to turn the world into the Millennium, apart from the visible appearance of Jesus. It's a grand hoax, so watch for it."

I trust these issues which are raised will spur us on to study, the Good Word, and pray diligently the Comforter, will lead us into all truth concerning these things.

Blessings,
Petro

[2nd Timothy]

Petro wrote:

The most daming information given to us by the scriptures, which deny a secret rapture before the second coming of Jesus to the earth, is given in His own words at Mat 24.

Supposedly the principle teaching for a Pre Tribulation rapture is that only those who look for Jesus's return will be "caught up" into the heavens, yet Jesus said;

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  (Mat 24:27-30)

What I have emboldened is one of the signs of His coming. A heavenly sign which is; "as the lightning cometh out of the east, shineth even unto the west", which causes "all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"

When you compare your passage with the following, it becomes apparent that they are the same event.

Rev 19:11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15  And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16  And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17  And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18  That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Sounding very much like what is described in Matthew about the birds gathering to eat the flesh of the dead.

Rev 19:19  And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

This verse makes it clear that this is the second coming...actual return to earth.  Verse 21 says the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.   IMO this is the second coming, not the ratpure.  Of course, placing the rapture of the church at this point would be a post trib event, which seems to have problems with other verses.   For example, if it happens at this time, when we go to fathers house where Jesus is preparing mansions for us?  (John 14:2)    Who is the army seen following Christ dressed in fine white linnen?  I say Jude 1:14.  And if we are seen coming with him, then we left long before this event and have been dwelling in heavenly mansions.

To me it becomes a real problem trying to seperate Matthew 24:27-30 and Revelation 19:11-21.   The more I study Matthew 24, the less I believe it references the rapture.  I think its focus is more on tribulation period.  The church is not even established at that point.

Another problem is the overlapping of dispensations.  Let me say right off the bat, that I lack knowledge in this area of scripture, but I do know that there are no examples of this anywhere else in the bible.  If the 70th week begins at the beginning of the tribulation, and the rapture happens at mid or end, then we get overlapping dispensations.   There was no church during the first 69 weeks, so it makes sense that there will be no church during the last week.  (I will leave this argument for you and Paul2 however, as I am not equipped to debate it....hopefully you guys can shed more light on this.)

As for Margaret McDonnald.   As I understand it, her vision  looked for a fiery trial which is to try us, and she foresaw the Church being purged by the Antichrist.  This certainly does not sound like a pre-trib rapture view to me.

The following clip comes from a well known pre-trib web site.   I have no idea how true it is, but the article is interesting.
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John L. Bray, a Southern Baptist evangelist, offered $500 to anyone who could prove that someone taught the rapture doctrine prior to MacDonald's 1830 vision. Bray was first proven wrong when he wrote in a newsletter, "Then my own research indicated that it was Emmanuel Lacunza, a Jesuit Catholic priest, who in the 1812 book The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty, first taught this theory." Bray stuck his neck out again when he made another $500 offer to anyone who could provide a documented statement earlier than Lacunza's 1812 writings. Apparently he had to cough up the 500 bucks. I quote him again: "I offered $500 to anyone who would give a documented statement earlier than Lacunza's time which taught a two-stage coming of Christ separated by a stated period of time.” No one claimed that offer until someone found writings that forced Bray to write the following: “Now I have the Photostat copies of a book published in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in 1788 but written in 1742-1744 in England, which taught the pretribulation rapture before Lacunza." Lately, a number of other sources have been located that teach the pretribulation rapture--some written as early as the second century. Where does this leave Margaret MacDonald?
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Of course, I don't accept the above as gospel, but it appears to dash the McDonnald vision as the origin of pre-trib teaching.   Most modern day pre-trib teachers will say that their doctrine is based on inspired word of God rather than McDonnald or anyone else for that matter.   While this adds another dimension to the pre-mid-post debate, I hardly see how it makes or breaks any view.   There were many who missed how the first coming of messiah would happen.   And it did happen in a way that most Jews thought it would not.   So this brings us full circle again.

When will it happen, and how does scripture say it will happen?

Grace and Peace!