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Paul2
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« on: December 10, 2003, 09:45:18 PM »

  I'll post some of my Pre-Tribulation Rapture studies here that I'm coping from different debates in other topics so they can be easily found for those interested in the subject. I had many, many pages that were lost when the site was crashed. I'm going to save the best new files on hard drive just in case. I lost hours and hours of studies on the Rapture so I'll start again.

     This first post is from a debate with Prophecyjax1 who believes in a Mid Tribulation Rapture.

     First let me say I'm not trying to convince you personally.
You are making bold statements that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is False. I disagree and will explain why only it will take a serious amount of effort to address all the issues. To solve a mystery you must be come a detective and search ALL the evidence. Your theory sounds easy enough in the beginning but when all evidence is considered it fails. Most people don't want to study deep enough to examine all the evidence required to correctly solve the mystery of the Rapture.

    I'll start laying out evidence for the benifit of those who read this to show that your not unchallenged as you claim.

    Its to bad the site crashed for much of this frame work was already layed out once but what can you do?

   Welcome to Pre-Tribulation Rapture 101:

    First lets start at the book of Revelation. John was given a format to follow in writing the book and we are given a format to follow when reading the book. If you do not follow the format of the book you will surely misinterpret the context.

Revelation 1:19  "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

"Write the things which thou hast seen," What had he seen? The vision of Chapter 1. This is past tense. Stay with me this is really quite simple.

"and the things which are" What are the things which are? The seven letters to the seven Churches, Church things, the Church age. What is Jesus doing in the seven letters to the Churches? Jesus is walking, not sitting between the seven lamp stands, Jesus is judging His Church. This is present tense. Jesus is still judging His Church. This is still an on going action. He warned the seven Churches and he has judged the literal seven churches the letters were adderessed to because the lay in ruins today. The seven letters are also for us. We are being judged. The letters to philidelphia and Laodicea are also prophetic Letters to the church on earth now. Philidelphia is to be Raptured. Laodicea has doctinal errors causing it to be vomited out of the body of Christ and remain behind at the Rapture and its becomes the harlot of Revelation 17.

   We are living in the period of time between Chapter 1 and Chapter 4. This is Christs Church program, present tense.

   Lets look at the key verse again and finish this up shall we:

 Revelation 1:19  "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;


and the things which shall be hereafter; HERE AFTER WHAT? THE CHURCH! WE started with a vision, you'll notice some part of the vision in each of the seven letters, Then came the Seven letters which is Christ Speaking to His Church and actively judging it. The Church is still here and the seven letters still apply to us. At the Rapture Jesus completes the judgement of the Church. The dead and the living Church are judged. Laodicea is vomited out into the Tribulation. WE are still in the time period of the things which are.

and the things which shall be hereafter;  Here after is future tense. After the Rapture and the Church is judged. This is the beginning of the tribulation period.

    Now we need to find where the part of the verse and the things which shall be hereafter; fits in.

Revelation 4:1  "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

    Ok now put it all together. we left off at the seven letters and Christ judging His Church. we are living during "the things which are" present tense. This present period must end before "the things which must be hereafter" can begin. There must be an end of the church age before the tribulation period can begin.

Revelation 4:1  "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
     
This is the Rapture! Theres your trumpet, Its the voice of Jesus. This open door is the same open door in the letter to the church of Philidephia, the Raptured church of those who were alive at the Rapture.

    This event in Chapter 4:1 is the Rapture and that event is what closes out the Age of Grace and the Church and Allows "the things which must be hereafter.to begin. The opening of the seven sealed scroll begins the tribulation, we are in heaven witnessing Jesus take the scroll from the Father. We are not destined for wrath. We are going to a Wedding.

   This is just one reason for pre-Tribulation Rapture but I'll keep adding on evidence as time permits me.

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« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2003, 09:52:15 PM »


Everything is now in place for our Lord to return. Nothing more must be accomplished. Israel has returned to the Holy Land and Jerusalem. Those unfulfilled prophecies like the Temple being rebuilt will be done in the 7 year tribulation period. Mat 25:10  And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
  Old Timer is right. The seven letters to the seven churches of Revelation are Three fold.
    First they were letters to the Seven real churches in those locations of that time period.
   Second they are letters to the universal church of the age of Grace. They contain a message for each person who is Christian.
   Third they represent the different time periods of the Church until the Rapture.

   We are in the time period of two churches in the letters of Revelation now. Philidelphia is the true church of the age now.
Philidelphia will be Raptured. Laodicea is the false church of the age now. Laodicea will be vomited out of the body of Christ and remain behind at the Rapture to enter into the Tribulation as the whore of Revelation 17. Laodicea is a false Church that professes Christianity and Jesus but distorts the truth of the Gospel. They can not be digested into the body of Christ and must be vomited out.

    The true Church of Philidelphia is the church that gives out the word of God. Old Timer used the passage of the wedding feast. When the door was shut. To the church of Philidelphia the Door is open.

Revelation 3:7  "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
   8: I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
   9: Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
  10: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    Philidelphia is Raptured at the voice like a trumpet from Jesus in Revelation 4:1. Laodicea is vomited out and left behind.

    Revelation 3: 14: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
   15: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
   16: So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

    The 24 Elders are the representatives of the Church Age. We are in the crowd after the Rapture and witness these events in the verses below. We are the redeemed!

Revelation 5:8 "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
   9: And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
   10: And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.



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« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2003, 10:00:54 PM »

The Two Witnesses of Revelation 11

    It is imporant to understand the time period of the ministry of the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11. At the time of their ministry (1,260 days) they are the chosen representatives for God on earth. Lets look at the scripture and then I'll explain the importance.

Revelation 11:3   "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
   4: These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

     The seven candlesticks mentioned in Revelation 1 are now not on earth but have been replaced by the two witnesses who are the only two people on earth with the Holy Spirit at the time of their ministry. Old testament Saints were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit but "led" by the Holy Spirit externally. The Only group indwelt by the Holy Spirit is the Church. The Holy Spirit started indwelling man at Pentecost and will end at the Rapture. The reason the word church is not found between chapter 3 and 22 is because the church has left earth and been Raptured. Believers during this period are called "Saints", which was also used to describe believers of old testament times. The church believers are also called Saints but theres a big difference between old testament Saints and Church Saints. Church Saints are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, old testament Saints were not. Saints of the Tribulation will not be Holy Spirit indwelt like the Church but will be led by the Holy Spirit as in old testament times. Not all Saints are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Thats what makes the Church unique.

     The reason the two witnesses are called lampstands is they are the only two on earth at the time of their ministry indwelt by the Holy Spirit. These are God's Ambassadors during the first half of the Tribulation or Daniels 70th week.

    Their ministry starts on the first day of Daniel's 70th week and continues until the mid week, 1260 days later. They begin their ministry on the very day the 7 year treaty with Israel is signed by Antichrist.

    How do I know that? Because Antichrist kills them at the middle of the 70th week.

 Revelation 11:7  "And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them."

     The two witnesses are divinely protected during their Ministry. They have power and control over rain and plagues.
Anyone who tries to harm them bursts into flames. They are unstoppable until finished with their ministry of 1260 days.

    On the last day of their ministry 1260 days after the treaty between Israel and Antichrist is signed the Antichrist goes to the rebuilt Temple and is fatally wounded and healed. Antichrist now starts his 42 month reign. He declares himself God and demands worship. His first "ACT" as self proclaimed God is to kill the two witnesses. No one else had been able to silence the two prophets before but Antichrist kills them to try to deceive people into believing he is God.

 8: And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
   9: And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
   10: And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
   11: And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.


     People rejoice and love the Antichrist because he killed the two witnesses and people send gifts to each other, sort of an "AntiChristmas." The party is short lived because the bodies of the two prophets are refused burial and lie in the street of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 Days until they are brought back to life, rise up an accend in full view of people just like Jesus.

    Why were the two witnesses denied burial for 3 1/2 days? Why are we told about the half day? The two witnesses begin their ministry at the beginning of Daniel's 70th week. A normal week is 7 days long but a prophetic week is 7 years long. The two witnesses preach for 3 1/2 years or propheticlly speaking three and a half days of the 70th week. They prophetically
complete the 70th week by laying dead in the street for three and a half days prophetically completing the 70th week and are resurrected as a sign to the world that at the end of the Great Tribulation there will be resurrection. This proof of resurrection will strengthen new tribulation Saints to be willing to be beheaded rather than take the mark of the beast which will be introduced at that time. To my knowledge I'm the only person to have explained the reason for the 3 1/2 days the two witnesses are refused burial. the 70th week theory is my theory conceived of by me.

    Antichrist ends the ministry of the two witnesses at the middle of Daniel's 70th week. The two witnesses ministry of 1,260 days can not be during the reign of Antichrists 42 months. Antichrist could not claim to be all powerful God during the two witnesses ministry. If he tried to do so people would question why he was powerless to stop them. He does stop them on the Last day of their Ministry which also happens to be the first day of Antichrists 42 month reign or 1,260 days which is the last half of Daniel's 70th week.

     What does all this mean? The Church is Raptured before the 70th week of Daniel begins. God sends two witnesses to be His Prophets during the first half of the 70th week. At the middle of the week Antichrist kills them ending their ministry and begins His 1,260 days or 42 months of reign.

     At the middle of Daniel's 70th week God seals the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel and they are led to the dessert in a place God perpared for them for 1260 days.

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« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2003, 10:08:08 PM »

Revelation 3:11   "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

     Jesus was giving the church of Philidelphia a warning. There is an imminence to the message. What Crown?

     The message to Philidelphia is also the message Jesus has for the Church living on earth at the time of the Rapture. We have a crown offered but it can be stolen by men. This crown is not Salvation but a crown of reward. There is a special crown given to those who look forward to Jesus coming for them at the Rapture. For those who love his appearing. For those who believe and expect the imminent return of Christ to remove His Church from earth.

2 Timothy 4:8   "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

      Many have tried to steal my Crown. Steal my hope of the imminate Return of the Lord to call us out of the world. To replace my hope with the Tribulation. To replace my Joy of hoping the Rapture is soon with dread that it might be in my life time. I protect my Crown like I was warned by Jesus to do.

     I have placed my faith in God"s word for he promised me this: Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    I believe Him. The Church should be expecting Christ now!
He could come at any minute. We are in the way of the treaty. Daniel's 70th week can not begin until were gone. We need to get busy for DAYS ARE SHORT. Are you ready to be Raptured or would it overtake you as a thief in the night?

    Will you receive your Crown? or will you be standing there empty handed smelling of smoke? Jesus could come at any moment. Theres nothing that must come first. The 70th week of Daniel CAN NOT begin until the Rapture has occured.

    Hold on to your crown tight and be ready to meet the Lord in the air. Let no man steal your Crown!

    I'll tackle the 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 issues on the next post.

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« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2003, 10:13:12 PM »

   2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 is a favorite of Pre-Trib. bashers. They miss the "DAY OF CHRIST" and try to replace it with the Rapture. The "Day of Christ" is the "Wrath of the Lamb."

Lets get some background. Paul was in Thessalonica for 3 weeks and started a Church there. He sent the Church a letter known as 1 Thessalonians. He revealed to the Thessalonians the Rapture. That was the focal point of the 1st. letter.

    Paul got word that the Thessalonians were being confused by false reports being sent to them claiming that they had missed the Rapture and had entered the Day of Christ, the wrath of the Lamb, the Great Tribulation.

    Paul sends another letter to clear up the situation.

 2 Thessalonians 2:1  "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.


     The Thessalonians were taught all about the Rapture and what was to follow. Verse 5 "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?" confirms this. They received a false report claiming they had entered the Wrath of the Lamb, which is also called the Day of Christ, which is also called the Great Tribulation. They knew the Rapture was to take place first and assumed they had missed the Rapture. They were told they had entered the Great Tribulation which is the last half of the 70th week of Daniel.

    2 Thessalonians 2:3  "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

     for that day shall not come What day shall not come? The Day of Christ, the Wrath of the Lamb, the Great tribulation. This is the day Paul is focusing on. Paul is focusing on the Day of the Wrath of the Lamb, Jesus Christ. Paul is not talking about the Rapture but the Wrath Of Christ.

     Paul is telling them that the wrath of Christ won't come until the man of sin be revealed (Antichrist). He's assuring them the wrath of the Lamb, Jesus Christ has not come yet.

2 Thessalonians 2:4  "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

      Now Paul tells them Antichrist is to be revealed. We know Antichrist signs the treaty with Israel to start the 70th week of Daniel, 1260 days later he is sitting in the temple claiming to be God. The Wrath of Christ can't begin until Antichrist enters the temple which he will do in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel.

2 Thessalonians 2:5  "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

    Paul reminds them that he had explained this before, and to beware of false messages supposedly from Paul contradicting what he had already taught them. In other words "Believe what I taught you in the first place, don't believe reports that claim you missed the Rapture and The Day of the Lambs wrath has come, The Day of Wrath can't begin until Antichrist is revealed at the signing of the seven year treaty and in the temple claiming to be God 1260 days later.

2 Thessalonians 2:6  "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
   7: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.8: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


     Now Paul is telling them that Antichrist is restrained and not revealed until the restrainer is removed. The restrainer is the Holy Spirit indwelling the Church. We are restraining Antichrist with the presence of the Holy Spirit indwelling us. At the Rapture the Holy Spirit will stop indwelling men and begin a different ministry of indwelling the two witnesses. When the Church is Raptured, Antichrist will be revealed and not until the Rapture.

     The "falling away" can be taken two ways, back sliding, and removal. I plan on falling away from earth to meet the Lord in the air.

2 Thessalonians 2:9   "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
   10: And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
"


     Antichrist is part of Gods judgment. A part of the wrath of the Lamb is allowing Antichrist to perform miracles for 42 months, the last half of Daniels 70th week. When God is sending delusions to believe lies your in the wrath of the Lamb.

     Summing it up, the Rapture is the focal point of
1 Thessalonians. The day of Christ, wrath of the Lamb, Great Tribulation is the focal point of 2 Thessalonians.

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« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2003, 10:23:24 PM »

I have discovered your answer! Take time to read this and allow me to explain in detail.

  The answer I have found will explain John's vision in Revelation and the rapture.

   Allow me to paint a visual picture senario for you. The Rapture of true believers happens now, Bam, millions vanish, including you. The next thing you know your standing before Jesus at the bema judgement seat. Jesus judges his Church at the bema judgement and gives rewards. 24 Elders are selected by Jesus to serve in the role of priests to him. He gives them crowns and they are seated before the throne of God. We are taken into the "place he went to prepare for us " with Jesus for the wedding week, which happens to parallel Daniel's 70th week on earth. On the final day of the wedding week we are assembled before God. This is the Day of the second coming of Christ to earth.

    John on the isle of Patmos was taken to THIS day in heaven, not the day of the rapture but to the day of the second coming! The day of the lord. John arrives in heaven and witnesses the last day. He doesn't see the bema judgement, but sees the elders of the church crowned and actively serving as priests holding the prayers of the tribulation saints. John's vision was not 7 years long. It was 1 day long, the last day.

    Back to us in heaven... We are assembled on the last day and we witness all the events of John's vision with him. We have been on a honeymoon and now we are being shown what has taken place since we left earth. We are being shown some events that have already taken place but we are shown the "cause and effect". We are shown the 7 seals broken and we are shown the effects that took place as a result. We are shown the details of 7 years, Daniel's 70th week. The 7th trumpet is the last day of Daniel's 70th week. Which happens to be the day we are gathered before God's throne in heaven witnessing everything John saw.

    John speaks with an elder who has been crowned, who could that be? the Elder asks John to identify the crowd arrayed in white robes. John does not recognize them, they are not of the church. The elder reveals to John that those arrayed in white have come up from the great tribulation, they are martyred tribulation saints. They are now at the throne of God for it is the last day. The day of the lord. At the end of John's vision Christ returns to earth for the wedding feast. We are hours away from decent.

   We are gathered together for the famous final scene. We are being shown the events of the past 7 years while we were on honeymoon. The seven bowls are poured out after the 7th trumpet but the effects take place from the mid week of Daniel's 70th week on. Satan was throne from heaven at the middle of the 70th week as the effect of the 5th trumpet judgement. We are watching what is like a movie. We are shown causes and their effects and not continous chronological time pass. We are being brought up to speed on events. Right now somewhere out in space is a comet heading for earth that will be called wormwood. It is aready in motion on a head on collision course. In heaven we will see the cause of the comet, the 3rd trumpet sounding, followed by the effect of the comet on earths water. We will be seeing the past, present and future. For with God the future is as certain as the past. John's vision shows the events of seven years in macro view and micro view. we are shown series of sevens with an interlude between the 6th and 7th of a series. Then we are given more details but not chronological in order. We witness the events of 7 years, past, present and future, on the final day of the 70th week of Daniel, and then we decend to earth.

   Can you see it now? John's vision was the Last day, the day of the second coming. We were being debriefed of what has taken place since we were raptured and taken to the place prepared for us to be with Jesus for the wedding week.
   We are about to be presented as the bride of Jesus and return to earth. We are shown the battle before the battle is fought and the outcome is certain.

   This is one of the keys to the book of Revelation. The vision is not chronological in the effects of the seals, trumpets, bowls. Many events take place the same day. The middle of the 70th week is a busy day. Satan gets thrown from heaven, Antichrist is wounded and healed and then to prove he's god kills the 2 witnesses of Revelation 11. The 6th seal effect takes place on this day as well.

    We are being shown a vision. Were not in a stadium looking down watching everything live and in the present. We are witnessing past, present and future of the final 70th week of Daniel.

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« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2003, 10:34:57 PM »

  There are 2 types of resurrection, the resurrection unto life, and the resurrection unto death. Are you with me so far? Good.

   The resurrection unto life is the first resurrection. Still with me? Good.

   There are three distint groups of people that will be part of the first resurrection unto life. The Church is the first group, the Old Testament Saints are second group, the Tribulation Saints are the third group.

   The Church is the first stage of the first resurrection. The church has a special destiny apart from the Old testament Saints and Tribulation Saints. The Church is the Bride of Christ and is Raptured and taken to heaven to the place prepared for us by Jesus to experience the wedding week which parallels Daniel's 70th week on earth.

   At the end of the wedding week and last day of Daniel's 70th week the second stage of the first resurrection takes place and the Martyred Tribulation Saints are resurrected.
The Old Testament Saints are resurrected, and the people who survivors of Armmegeddon are judged.

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« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2003, 10:44:49 PM »

   The famous seventh Trumpet announces the Kingdom of the Lord Jesus has come. This is the last day of Daniel's 70th week on earth. Notice the verse in bold type


Revelation 11:15  "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
   16: And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
   17: Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
   18: And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
   19: And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

   Compare the above verses to the seventh vial passages




 17: And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
   18: And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

   19: And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
   20: And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
  21: And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

     They are both the same event. The 7th trumpet is the announcement that Jesus is now beginning His kingdom, The 7th vial or bowl is the judgement plaque of the earthquake and hail.

    The 7th trumpet and the 7th vial both take place on the last day of Daniel's 70th week. Jesus is returning to earth to establish His kingdom, this is the Day of the second coming!

    John sees the resurrection of the Tribulation Saints, after he has already seen them in heaven, sort of a flash back. John is asked to identify the tribulation saints but doesn't recognize them. He might have been thinking to himself "how did they get here" and in chapter 20 he is shown how they are resurrected.

   All the events of Revelation are not chronolgical, some are but many aren't. You are getting an overview of 7 years, what takes place on earth and in heaven. John sees past, present and future, because to God its all the same. God sees our future in past tense. He has declared the outcome from the beginning. God is awesome! He reveals truth, and reveals lies.

                                         The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2  Cool
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« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2003, 11:26:24 PM »

I thought it was time to "resurrect" this thread again. For those of you who are new or visiting there are many worth while debates and evidence for Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church. If your interested go back to the first page and read through the posts (especially Paul2's  Wink ).

     People are always refering to Matthew and the Rapture, but Matthew is focused on the Jews and the Second Coming of Christ ,not the Rapture.

     Well what about good old Dr. Luke the Gentile? Luke was written by a Gentile, Luke, to Gentiles, Greeks, with messages for Gentiles (The Church).

Luke 21:29: And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree (nation of Israel), and all the trees; (the nations)
   30: When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
   31: So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
   32: Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
   33: Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
   34: And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
   35: For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
   36: Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man
.


     Verse 35 above makes it clear that the so called "Snare" would come on ALL (every person on planet earth) that dwells on the face of the Whole Earth. There is nobody spared, if your on planet earth at this time your snared. But wait! Theres an escape for those accounted worthy from the wrath that shall come to pass.

      Now lets analize the information we have been given:

      We are told clearly that at the time of wrath, everybody dwelling on the face of the whole earth would be snared.

      We are then told clearly, that there is an escape for those accounted worthy.

      The "escape" must be from the face of the whole earth because those who dwell on the face of the whole earth are snared.

      Who are those accounted worthy? Those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, The Church.

      The "escape" is the Rapture of the Church but you must remember that this was spoken by Jesus before his death and the Church even began. The Rapture mystery is hidden here but will be revealed by the Aposle Paul for us more clearly.

    Those who do not believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture must alter the meaning of the verses by substituting the word "ESCAPE" (meaning being removed from the earth, because all who dwell upon the face of the whole earth will be snared) with the word "ENDURE" (meaning somehow the Church will make it through). If God wanted us to "endure" that would have been the word He used, but God wanted us to "Escape " from the earth and the judgments that will take place on ALL THOSE WHO DWELL ON THE FACE OF THE WHOLE EARTH, so God used the word "ESCAPE" meaning "RAPTURE", which means "to be caught up, snatched away! RESCUE!!!                  

                           The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2 Cool
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« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2003, 02:35:18 AM »

Could you give an URL ?

tnx
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« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2003, 04:11:03 AM »

Paul2,

I have read the first page in it entirety, carefully.

I cannot go any further until, I understand how it is you reach your conclusions, so I need to ask questions, especially since you jump from Rev 4:1, where you begin the rapture (according to your timeline), to Rev 7, I already see a problem, but first let me ask;

You said, in refering to the church at Philadelphia Rev 3:10;


(quote)"and the things which are" What are the things which are? The seven letters to the seven Churches, Church things, the Church age. What is Jesus doing in the seven letters to the Churches? Jesus is walking, not sitting between the seven lamp stands, Jesus is judging His Church. This is present tense. Jesus is still judging His Church. This is still an on going action. He warned the seven Churches and he has judged the literal seven churches the letters were adderessed to because the lay in ruins today. The seven letters are also for us. We are being judged. The letters to philidelphia and Laodicea are also prophetic Letters to the church on earth now. Philidelphia is to be Raptured. Laodicea has doctinal errors causing it to be vomited out of the body of Christ and remain behind at the Rapture and its becomes the harlot of Revelation 17.
(end  quote)

The rapture of the church at Philadelphia, I can see clearly according to your understanding is "raptured" because of ;

Rev 3
10  Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The word Temptation # 3986, peirasmos ; pi-ras-mos'  is defined as; by impl; adversaty:- temptation x try.

The Greek-English NT Interlinear uses the word trial in place of temptation.

I can understand trial or temptation being associated with the word tribulation.

But how do you tie the word tribulation to the word wrath??

The word tribulation is not  used in the passage used to defend the pre trib rapture , in the following passage;

1 Th 4
14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1  But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

What verse of sciprutre do you use to separate the "coming of thr Lord" (vs 4:15), and "day of the Lord" (vs 5:2)??

Now, at 1 Th 5:2, the day of the Lord is what is in view here, and it is the day of wrath, (Zephania 1:14-15) spoken of in conjunction with the rapture, and clearly the day of the Lord comes  after the of the tribulation of those days, according to Mat 24:29.

Jesus never promised to keep his disciples from tribulation on the contrary he says,

"in the world ye will have tribulation"(Jhn 16:33)

but,  he does from (his) wrath (1Th5:9), and in His prayer to the Father at Jhn 17, Jesus prays;

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.  
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.  
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.  
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19  And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.  

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

And it is clear from His words, that thru the preaching of their (His Disciples/Christians) words, there shall be others that "shall believe on ME through their word;"

But more importantly note verse 15,  ....."but that thou shouldest keep them out of the evil" (Greek-English NT Interlinear)

Not keep  them out of  wrath but the evil.  

Is there a difference between wrath and evil.....?  They are not synonomous words.

Evil is defined as: Any force action or attitude that works in opposition to God.  Student Bible Dictionary  Barbour Publish'g, Inc.

Furthermore, Notice at the fifth seal,  Rev 6:9-11,  these in "white robes" who, "came out of the great tribulation" are included with those you see as the raptured church  at  Rev 7:9-14.  

If this is so, how was it that these were left behind?, Since the rapture supposedly included every
Christian on the earth.??  And since  pre tribbers do not include those left behind who will come to faith as a result of the rapture, as part of the church, these who wear "White Robes" are clearly included with those who attend the wedding feast.

If the church is raptured, these must have been left behind, along with others who are yet to be killed, according to verse 11.

These even ask; "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?  expectant to have their blood avenged by the Lord at the poring out of his wrath upon the earth.

But notice the answer given them;

11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.  fellow bondservants, not witnesses

If the church has been raptured already, where did these come from?? Who evangelized them?? and  are they not members of the church the Body of Christ??

And again, it isn't until the sixth seal is opened at Rev 6:12-17;  That the "great day of HIS wrath is come; is mentioned, nothing is said about tribulation....

Can you reconcile these for me?


Blessings,
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« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2003, 04:54:58 AM »

   People are always refering to Matthew and the Rapture, but Matthew is focused on the Jews and the Second Coming of Christ ,not the Rapture.

Right On! Bro

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« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2003, 08:38:35 AM »

This is very interesting stuff, from both points of view.  I will have to wait until my work week finishes in order to follow along with scripture in front of me, for both sides.

Grace and peace!
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« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2003, 12:03:11 PM »

  People are always refering to Matthew and the Rapture, but Matthew is focused on the Jews and the Second Coming of Christ ,not the Rapture.

Right On! Bro

Brother Love Smiley

bro love,

In the lite of Mat 24:22, please reconcile, this verse with your statement  above.
 
Clearly, the elect does not consist of the Jews only.  

Or am I wrong?

Lk 16:22-36, is the same discourse, Jesus spoke to His disciples at Mat 24, in the first place he is speaking to His disciples, and then uses Noe, and Lot to make the point concerning His coming wrath upon the world, and at verse 33, the word "whosoever" does not limit these things to the jews at all.

Can you square this up..


Blessings, Petro
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« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2003, 01:24:11 PM »

   Petro,

       Thats quite a list of questions...

      the word "tribulation" refers to every day trials and tribulations. The "Great Tribulation" is a specific time period of Judgment, which includes the "wrath of the Lamb".

      The "Day of the Lord" has many meanings in Scripture, it has been used to describe many things. Heres some examples:

Ezekiel 30:2  "Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Howl ye, Woe worth the day
   3: For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.
   4: And the sword shall come upon Egypt, and great pain shall be in Ethiopia, when the slain shall fall in Egypt, and they shall take away her multitude, and her foundations shall be broken down."

      If you continue reading the passages in Ezekiel 30, you find that Nebuchadnezzar is mentioned.

Ezekiel 30:9   "In that day shall messengers go forth from me in ships to make the careless Ethiopians afraid, and great pain shall come upon them, as in the day of Egypt: for, lo, it cometh.
   10: Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will also make the multitude of Egypt to cease by the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon.
   11: He and his people with him, the terrible of the nations, shall be brought to destroy the land: and they shall draw their swords against Egypt, and fill the land with the slain.


      As you can see by the verses above the "Day of the Lord" was used to describe God's judgment by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar.

2 Peter 3:10  "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

       It seems Peter is using the "Day of the Lord" to describe the Rapture ("But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night") and then also describes the destruction of the heavens and earth after the Millenium which is found in Revelation 21: 1: And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
   2: And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
   3: And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
   4: And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

     Paul uses the "Day of the Lord" to mean the end of the age of Grace which is the Day of the Rapture.

1 Thessalonians 5:2  "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

     Bottom line is the "Day of the Lord" has many meanings and it takes deep searching to determine which meaning to apply to "the Day of the Lord" where ever it is used.

                                                Paul2


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