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Our Lord Jesus Christ loves you.
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Author Topic: Being Forgiven.  (Read 13299 times)
cris
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« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2005, 06:09:22 PM »

Forgiving someone of their offense and not allowing your self to be in a position for them to continue that offense is two different things.

If I loan someone money and they don't repay it should I "loan" to them again or just give it to them since they won't pay it back? If someone hits me should I stick around them so they can hit me again?

I think that the verse 1Tim 6:5 applies here also.




Yes and no.  How would a prisoner remove himself from the situation?  Fact is, there are times when one CAN"T remove himself.  So, if I'm in a prison yard, do I forgive the person as they continue hitting me?  Obviously, if one could remove himself from the situation, then I think doing so is great common sense.  But, back to my original question, again!  

 
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« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2005, 06:12:02 PM »

I think there is a difference in "withdrawing" from someone and witnessing to them. In other words a person can be withdrawn from an individual and still be able to witness to that individual.
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JudgeNot
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« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2005, 06:16:14 PM »

Quote
So, if I'm in a prison yard, do I forgive the person as they continue hitting me?

Did Jesus forgive those who were beating Him as He was being beaten, or would they have had to first ask Him for forgiveness?
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cris
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« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2005, 06:17:01 PM »

I think there is a difference in "withdrawing" from someone and witnessing to them. In other words a person can be withdrawn from an individual and still be able to witness to that individual.


I think you mean "detach".  How can one detach or withdraw as they are being hit?  How can they forgive as they are being hit?  

   
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« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2005, 06:20:24 PM »

Let's not confuse LOVE with FORGIVENESS.  Jesus loves every person.
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« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2005, 06:20:44 PM »

Jesus forgave those that were hanging Him on the cross as He was on the cross. It is and would be difficult to do.

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cris
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« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2005, 06:30:46 PM »


Yes, Jesus loves every person BUT He does not forgive every person unless they ask.  Then He is merciful and gracious enough to do so, IF the person repents.

I don't find Jesus forgiving His beaters as they beat Him along the way.  Jesus did not forgive them AS they crucified Him.  It was only AFTERWARD (the action had stopped) that He asked His Father to forgive them BECAUSE they didn't KNOW what they were doing.  A person who keeps hitting me knows what they're doing.

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« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2005, 06:43:43 PM »

Assuming this is a brother we are talking about and not an un-known thief on the street....

NASB
Mat 18:21  Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
Mat 18:22  Jesus *said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
Mat 18:23  "For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
Mat 18:24  "When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
Mat 18:25  "But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
Mat 18:26  "So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
Mat 18:27  "And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28  "But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, 'Pay back what you owe.'
Mat 18:29  "So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
Mat 18:30  "But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
Mat 18:31  "So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
Mat 18:32  "Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
Mat 18:33  'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
Mat 18:34  "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
Mat 18:35  "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."


All of the above still does not answer my original question.  Here you are comparing apples and oranges.  Common sense says if someone owes me money I can forgive them that debt or necessarily not.  If everyone forgave everyone money debts, I hate to think where the economy would be.  At any rate when the slave told his master he would repay it all, the master knew he couldn't.  When the slave demanded money from his fellow slave, he didn't have the mindset of his master.  We're talking about tangible forgiveness here.  It's different.

If you hit me and don't stop hitting me, am I supposed to forgive you as you continue hitting me?  I hope you don't say yes, cause if ya do, I'm going to recommend a shrink.

Grace and peace
cris


How different is your question from Peter's?   Believe me, I can see your point on common sense....(reminds me of the point brought up in the contraception thread  Grin ), but Christ Himself was able to forgive while He was being beaten, as PR points out.

I believe the passage given does answer your question, as its the same question Peter asked....with a slight twist here and there  Wink.    I believe the point is, that our forgiving others, is meant to cause a change of heart in their wrong doing toward us, just as His forgiveness of our sin is meant to cause a change in our hearts.   Some will not change, but never the less, Jesus still extended that forgiveness to them at the cost of His life.   Certainly He needs no shrink.   The answer to the question is, Forgive, as hard as that may be to accept.   So I guess sign me up for some therapy.

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« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2005, 06:55:19 PM »

Assuming this is a brother we are talking about and not an un-known thief on the street....

NASB
Mat 18:21  Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
Mat 18:22  Jesus *said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
Mat 18:23  "For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
Mat 18:24  "When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
Mat 18:25  "But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
Mat 18:26  "So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
Mat 18:27  "And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28  "But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, 'Pay back what you owe.'
Mat 18:29  "So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
Mat 18:30  "But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
Mat 18:31  "So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
Mat 18:32  "Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
Mat 18:33  'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
Mat 18:34  "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
Mat 18:35  "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."


All of the above still does not answer my original question.  Here you are comparing apples and oranges.  Common sense says if someone owes me money I can forgive them that debt or necessarily not.  If everyone forgave everyone money debts, I hate to think where the economy would be.  At any rate when the slave told his master he would repay it all, the master knew he couldn't.  When the slave demanded money from his fellow slave, he didn't have the mindset of his master.  We're talking about tangible forgiveness here.  It's different.

If you hit me and don't stop hitting me, am I supposed to forgive you as you continue hitting me?  I hope you don't say yes, cause if ya do, I'm going to recommend a shrink.

Grace and peace
cris


How different is your question from Peter's?   Believe me, I can see your point on common sense....(reminds me of the point brought up in the contraception thread  Grin ), but Christ Himself was able to forgive while He was being beaten, as PR points out.

I believe the passage given does answer your question, as its the same question Peter asked....with a slight twist here and there  Wink.    I believe the point is, that our forgiving others, is meant to cause a change of heart in their wrong doing toward us, just as His forgiveness of our sin is meant to cause a change in our hearts.   Some will not change, but never the less, Jesus still extended that forgiveness to them at the cost of His life.   Certainly He needs no shrink.   The answer to the question is, Forgive, as hard as that may be to accept.   So I guess sign me up for some therapy.




No twisting allowed 2T.  Show me where in the bible that Jesus was forgiving as He was being lashed!  Jesus did not forgive until the acts and act of crucifying were over.  

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« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2005, 06:59:42 PM »

Luk 23:34  Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.


Note: The soldiers did not release Him at this point....they finished the Job.   Also note He said forgive them for they know not what the DO (not did).

Perhaps the beatings had stopped, but they carried out their doings to kill Him
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Tim

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« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2005, 07:01:58 PM »

Jesus forgave those that were hanging Him on the cross as He was on the cross. It is and would be difficult to do.




Yes, as He hang on the cross, BUT the action had ceased.  I think this is a good lesson in common sense.  If we are to model our lives after Christ, then we should be able to see Christ asked the Father to forgive them AFTERWARDS, not while or as.

 
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« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2005, 07:04:26 PM »

So if a person beats you, and you don't forgive them while the beating is in process.....but you forgive them after they beatings stop and they leave you for dead, whats really the difference?
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Tim

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« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2005, 07:15:23 PM »

Luk 23:34  Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.


Note: The soldiers did not release Him at this point....they finished the Job.   Also note He said forgive them for they know not what the DO (not did).

Perhaps the beatings had stopped, but they carried out their doings to kill Him

I just read Luke 24.  He had already been crucified.  The act of the crucifixion had ceased.  What do you mean the soldiers had not yet released Him.  How did the soldiers release Him?  The job of crucifying was finished.  Mocking Him and offering Him gall has nothing to do with it.  He came to give His life for us via the crucifixion....................the final act WAS FINISHED.  We were not forgiven, nor could we be saved until IT WAS FINISHED.  We cannot truly forgive until the act is severed.  Then, a new beginning, a rebirth, a resurrection.

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« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2005, 07:23:26 PM »

See the previous post.  


To add a little depth to your point try this passage.


Luk 17:3  Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Luk 17:4  And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.


First step is to rebuke a brother, obviously to bring about his repentance.  If he repents then forgive, as many times as necessary.

The soldiers never repented of their sins.  They let Christ die.  No one tried to remove Him from the cross and minister to Him so that He would not die, yet Christ still asked the Father to forgive them (was the original point).

I agree, that it would be difficult to forgive someone while they were beating you...I would most certainly try to get away, and at the least rebuke them  Cheesy.   Some of us probably would not be able to.

My question in relation to one you asked earlier.  If a brother in your church stole your car, and you sought him out to give him your second car, would that be a form of rebuke?  I wonder how he would respond to that?

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Tim

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« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2005, 07:23:28 PM »

As for Salvation we are not forgiven until the act was complete. Jesus however did ask for forgiveness to those that crucified Him before the act was finished.

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