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Theology => Apologetics => Topic started by: Marco25 on July 10, 2005, 02:57:19 AM



Title: Being Forgiven.
Post by: Marco25 on July 10, 2005, 02:57:19 AM
Hello I am a first time poster. I do alot of reading and such because most of the people are highly educated and enlightend people of god and I dont want to say anything  stupid lol. Well anyway here is my question. Awhile back in my youth group we had a conversation about being forgiven. My friend asked the question if were forgiven for all our sins why do we still repent. The room went quite for a few minutes. It was a big question and not many people exactly new what to say so the question wasnt fully answered.Some people said we do it out of self etification and others said we do because we feel guilty and it makes us feel better, some people dont believe your not christian if you dont even want to ask for forgivness. I kinda think its a personal relationship thing like I know I dont have to ask but I do anyway??? ??? I'm really looking for a scripture based answer but anything is welcome : )


Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: Soldier4Christ on July 10, 2005, 03:56:26 AM
Marco25,

The question you ask is an excellant question and one that deserves the best answer possible.

None of us are perfect and as such we will continue to sin. If we do not repent of that sin then we are not humbling ourselves to God nor are we showing conviction (regretting having done that sin). God wants us to humble ourselves before Him. He also wants us to show that we are true in our feelings and desire to please Him. We are told by Jesus that we need to repent. To not do so is to displease Him.



2Co 12:21  And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.


Jam 4:7  Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jam 4:8  Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jam 4:9  Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jam 4:10  Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.


Luk 13:3  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Act 17:30  And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:




Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: Soldier4Christ on July 10, 2005, 12:46:55 PM
I came across this Bible study this morning on this very subject. This is aimed primarily toward the unsaved but it is also applicable toward us that are.


IT’S YOUR ATTITUDE

By Cornelius R. Stam

Many people fear that they will never reach heaven.
Some try not to think about it, while others struggle to "be
good," hoping that they will finally "make it." Very few,
comparatively, are sure of heaven.
The real pity is that so few understand what it is that
keeps people out of heaven. If you are confused about this,
just remember that according to Scripture, it is not one’s
sins that keep him out of heaven, but his attitude.
God has made full provision for our sins. "Christ died for
our sins" (I Cor. 15:3) and "we have redemption through His
blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His
grace" (Eph. 1:7).
But God has made no provision for a self-righteous at-
titude. He gave the Law "that every mouth may be stopped
and that all the world may be brought in guilty before God"
(Rom. 3:19). Thus He does not want you to keep saying
things in your own defense. In fact, before you can know
God as your Savior, you must recognize Him as your Judge,
righteously condemning you as a sinner.
Often, when capital crimes are involved, the defendant’s
attorney will tell him: "It will be to your advantage to plead
guilty and to throw yourself on the mercy of the court."
This is especially true of us as sinners in the sight of a
holy God. If we will only plead guilty and cast ourselves
upon His mercy we will find Him more than gracious, for
He has already paid the penalty for our sins Himself.
Yes, unsaved friend, it will be to your eternal advantage
to plead guilty before God and to cast yourself upon His
mercy, "for the wages of sin is death, but THE GIFT OF
GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST
OUR LORD" (Rom. 6:23).



Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: ollie on July 11, 2005, 08:51:30 AM
When the disciple asked Christ to teach them how to pray and what they should pray for, Christ gave them this example.

 Luke 11:1.  "And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.
 2.  And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
 3.  Give us day by day our daily bread.
 4.  And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil."


In the example given Christ tells His disciples to ask for forgiveness of our sins in prayer. However there is a condition that we must also forgive those that sin against us, if they repent of it, in order to receive forgiveness. Matthew 6:14, Luke 17:3-4.

Then also John tells us:

1 John 1:8.  "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
 9.  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."


ollie


Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: cris on July 11, 2005, 02:15:04 PM


In the example given Christ tells His disciples to ask for forgiveness of our sins in prayer. However there is a condition that we must also forgive those that sin against us, if they repent of it, in order to receive forgiveness. Matthew 6:14, Luke 17:3-4.



ollie



Very interesting!  Does the above mean we are not expected to forgive those who do not repent?


Grace and peace,
cris



Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: ollie on July 12, 2005, 10:09:20 AM


In the example given Christ tells His disciples to ask for forgiveness of our sins in prayer. However there is a condition that we must also forgive those that sin against us, if they repent of it, in order to receive forgiveness. Matthew 6:14, Luke 17:3-4.



ollie



Very interesting!  Does the above mean we are not expected to forgive those who do not repent?


Grace and peace,
cris


We must remember we are talking of the brethren in Christ. His disciples. The forgiveness of those, outside Christ, who might sin against us, can only be covered by God's love and our sharing it with them, so that they might accept His gift and overcome sin through Christ and receive forgiveness.

The bible seems to teach withdrawal from unrepentant brethren sinners. 2 Thessalonians 3:6
It seems to be a sort of chastisement to humble the unrepentant sinner to repentance and forgiveness from all.

ollie


Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: Soldier4Christ on July 12, 2005, 11:55:57 AM
Are we not told in 1Tim 6:5 tp withdraw from those that are not of the brethern?

1Ti 6:5  Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.


If they are destitiute of the truth they are not brethern although they may portend to be.



Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: cris on July 12, 2005, 03:53:14 PM

2Thessalonians 3:6 seems to refer to the brethern who avoided work or malingered.  Otherwise, unrepentant brethern would seem an oxymoron.

I like your response PR and it is my sentiment above, also.


Getting back to my question now.............if there is a "condition" to God forgiving us, that being we must forgive others  "if" they repent, then my question still goes unanswered.  If one doesn't repent, then we don't have to forgive them, correct?  This is what those verses "seem" to be saying.




Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: 2nd Timothy on July 12, 2005, 05:18:47 PM
Great thread!

Quote
if there is a "condition" to God forgiving us, that being we must forgive others  "if" they repent, then my question still goes unanswered.  If one doesn't repent, then we don't have to forgive them, correct?  This is what those verses "seem" to be saying.


This verse comes to mind cris....


Mat 18:21  Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22  Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.


I know I've lost count a few times...lol...j/k

Grace and Peace!


Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: cris on July 12, 2005, 05:28:41 PM
Great thread!

Quote
if there is a "condition" to God forgiving us, that being we must forgive others  "if" they repent, then my question still goes unanswered.  If one doesn't repent, then we don't have to forgive them, correct?  This is what those verses "seem" to be saying.


This verse comes to mind cris....


Mat 18:21  Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22  Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.


I know I've lost count a few times...lol...j/k

Grace and Peace!


There are times when I think it's absolutely imperative to use the brain God gave us.  I feel Jesus Christ had the utmost of common sense.  Common sense says, forgive someone if they repent.  It's commanded of us.  Reminds me of the verse that says "turn the other cheek" and "if your brother steals your shirt, then give him also your jacket".  Now, if I have two cars and my brother steals one of them, should I hunt him down and give him my other car?

 


Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: 2nd Timothy on July 12, 2005, 05:37:48 PM
Assuming this is a brother we are talking about and not an un-known thief on the street....

NASB
Mat 18:21  Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
Mat 18:22  Jesus *said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
Mat 18:23  "For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
Mat 18:24  "When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
Mat 18:25  "But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
Mat 18:26  "So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
Mat 18:27  "And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28  "But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, 'Pay back what you owe.'
Mat 18:29  "So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
Mat 18:30  "But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
Mat 18:31  "So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
Mat 18:32  "Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
Mat 18:33  'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
Mat 18:34  "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
Mat 18:35  "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."


Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: cris on July 12, 2005, 05:53:36 PM
Assuming this is a brother we are talking about and not an un-known thief on the street....

NASB
Mat 18:21  Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
Mat 18:22  Jesus *said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
Mat 18:23  "For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
Mat 18:24  "When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
Mat 18:25  "But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
Mat 18:26  "So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
Mat 18:27  "And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28  "But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, 'Pay back what you owe.'
Mat 18:29  "So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
Mat 18:30  "But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
Mat 18:31  "So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
Mat 18:32  "Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
Mat 18:33  'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
Mat 18:34  "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
Mat 18:35  "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."


All of the above still does not answer my original question.  Here you are comparing apples and oranges.  Common sense says if someone owes me money I can forgive them that debt or necessarily not.  If everyone forgave everyone money debts, I hate to think where the economy would be.  At any rate when the slave told his master he would repay it all, the master knew he couldn't.  When the slave demanded money from his fellow slave, he didn't have the mindset of his master.  We're talking about tangible forgiveness here.  It's different.

If you hit me and don't stop hitting me, am I supposed to forgive you as you continue hitting me?  I hope you don't say yes, cause if ya do, I'm going to recommend a shrink.

Grace and peace
cris




Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: Soldier4Christ on July 12, 2005, 06:01:01 PM
Forgiving someone of their offense and not allowing your self to be in a position for them to continue that offense is two different things.

If I loan someone money and they don't repay it should I "loan" to them again or just give it to them since they won't pay it back? If someone hits me should I stick around them so they can hit me again?

I think that the verse 1Tim 6:5 applies here also.



Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: nChrist on July 12, 2005, 06:01:11 PM
Amen Brothers and Sisters,

YES! - this is a great thread.

Unforgiveness is a burden on the heart, both for the person who refuses to forgive and the person seeking forgiveness. In fact, I think that unforgiveness in the heart of a brother or sister in Christ is like a cancer that harms and consumes the goodness that God gives us. At the very least, it harms our walk in the Spirit and our testimony before men.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 Timothy 6:12  Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.


Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: ollie on July 12, 2005, 06:03:41 PM
Quotes are "Pastor Roger's":
Quote
Are we not told in 1Tim 6:5 tp withdraw from those that are not of the brethern?
It says "any man" and then calls out conditions of any man that if had should be withdrawn from. I don't think it covers all heathen/those not in Christ else how could we draw them to us with the gospel. We are only to withdraw from types/behaviours mentioned not all.

Quote
1Ti 6:5  Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
That cannot mean the heathen with a ready heart to hear the gospel and come to Christ. It does not mean all "non brethren", but stipulates certain characteristics held by some "non brethren".


Quote
If they are destitiute of the truth they are not brethern although they may portend to be.


Very true and the types to be withdrawn from are stipulated.

ollie
Quote


Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: cris on July 12, 2005, 06:09:22 PM
Forgiving someone of their offense and not allowing your self to be in a position for them to continue that offense is two different things.

If I loan someone money and they don't repay it should I "loan" to them again or just give it to them since they won't pay it back? If someone hits me should I stick around them so they can hit me again?

I think that the verse 1Tim 6:5 applies here also.




Yes and no.  How would a prisoner remove himself from the situation?  Fact is, there are times when one CAN"T remove himself.  So, if I'm in a prison yard, do I forgive the person as they continue hitting me?  Obviously, if one could remove himself from the situation, then I think doing so is great common sense.  But, back to my original question, again!  

 


Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: Soldier4Christ on July 12, 2005, 06:12:02 PM
I think there is a difference in "withdrawing" from someone and witnessing to them. In other words a person can be withdrawn from an individual and still be able to witness to that individual.


Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: JudgeNot on July 12, 2005, 06:16:14 PM
Quote
So, if I'm in a prison yard, do I forgive the person as they continue hitting me?

Did Jesus forgive those who were beating Him as He was being beaten, or would they have had to first ask Him for forgiveness?


Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: cris on July 12, 2005, 06:17:01 PM
I think there is a difference in "withdrawing" from someone and witnessing to them. In other words a person can be withdrawn from an individual and still be able to witness to that individual.


I think you mean "detach".  How can one detach or withdraw as they are being hit?  How can they forgive as they are being hit?  

   


Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: JudgeNot on July 12, 2005, 06:20:24 PM
Let's not confuse LOVE with FORGIVENESS.  Jesus loves every person.


Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: Soldier4Christ on July 12, 2005, 06:20:44 PM
Jesus forgave those that were hanging Him on the cross as He was on the cross. It is and would be difficult to do.



Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: cris on July 12, 2005, 06:30:46 PM

Yes, Jesus loves every person BUT He does not forgive every person unless they ask.  Then He is merciful and gracious enough to do so, IF the person repents.

I don't find Jesus forgiving His beaters as they beat Him along the way.  Jesus did not forgive them AS they crucified Him.  It was only AFTERWARD (the action had stopped) that He asked His Father to forgive them BECAUSE they didn't KNOW what they were doing.  A person who keeps hitting me knows what they're doing.



Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: 2nd Timothy on July 12, 2005, 06:43:43 PM
Assuming this is a brother we are talking about and not an un-known thief on the street....

NASB
Mat 18:21  Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
Mat 18:22  Jesus *said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
Mat 18:23  "For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
Mat 18:24  "When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
Mat 18:25  "But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
Mat 18:26  "So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
Mat 18:27  "And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28  "But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, 'Pay back what you owe.'
Mat 18:29  "So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
Mat 18:30  "But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
Mat 18:31  "So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
Mat 18:32  "Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
Mat 18:33  'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
Mat 18:34  "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
Mat 18:35  "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."


All of the above still does not answer my original question.  Here you are comparing apples and oranges.  Common sense says if someone owes me money I can forgive them that debt or necessarily not.  If everyone forgave everyone money debts, I hate to think where the economy would be.  At any rate when the slave told his master he would repay it all, the master knew he couldn't.  When the slave demanded money from his fellow slave, he didn't have the mindset of his master.  We're talking about tangible forgiveness here.  It's different.

If you hit me and don't stop hitting me, am I supposed to forgive you as you continue hitting me?  I hope you don't say yes, cause if ya do, I'm going to recommend a shrink.

Grace and peace
cris


How different is your question from Peter's?   Believe me, I can see your point on common sense....(reminds me of the point brought up in the contraception thread  ;D ), but Christ Himself was able to forgive while He was being beaten, as PR points out.

I believe the passage given does answer your question, as its the same question Peter asked....with a slight twist here and there  ;).    I believe the point is, that our forgiving others, is meant to cause a change of heart in their wrong doing toward us, just as His forgiveness of our sin is meant to cause a change in our hearts.   Some will not change, but never the less, Jesus still extended that forgiveness to them at the cost of His life.   Certainly He needs no shrink.   The answer to the question is, Forgive, as hard as that may be to accept.   So I guess sign me up for some therapy.



Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: cris on July 12, 2005, 06:55:19 PM
Assuming this is a brother we are talking about and not an un-known thief on the street....

NASB
Mat 18:21  Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
Mat 18:22  Jesus *said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
Mat 18:23  "For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
Mat 18:24  "When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
Mat 18:25  "But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
Mat 18:26  "So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
Mat 18:27  "And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28  "But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, 'Pay back what you owe.'
Mat 18:29  "So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
Mat 18:30  "But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
Mat 18:31  "So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
Mat 18:32  "Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
Mat 18:33  'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
Mat 18:34  "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
Mat 18:35  "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."


All of the above still does not answer my original question.  Here you are comparing apples and oranges.  Common sense says if someone owes me money I can forgive them that debt or necessarily not.  If everyone forgave everyone money debts, I hate to think where the economy would be.  At any rate when the slave told his master he would repay it all, the master knew he couldn't.  When the slave demanded money from his fellow slave, he didn't have the mindset of his master.  We're talking about tangible forgiveness here.  It's different.

If you hit me and don't stop hitting me, am I supposed to forgive you as you continue hitting me?  I hope you don't say yes, cause if ya do, I'm going to recommend a shrink.

Grace and peace
cris


How different is your question from Peter's?   Believe me, I can see your point on common sense....(reminds me of the point brought up in the contraception thread  ;D ), but Christ Himself was able to forgive while He was being beaten, as PR points out.

I believe the passage given does answer your question, as its the same question Peter asked....with a slight twist here and there  ;).    I believe the point is, that our forgiving others, is meant to cause a change of heart in their wrong doing toward us, just as His forgiveness of our sin is meant to cause a change in our hearts.   Some will not change, but never the less, Jesus still extended that forgiveness to them at the cost of His life.   Certainly He needs no shrink.   The answer to the question is, Forgive, as hard as that may be to accept.   So I guess sign me up for some therapy.




No twisting allowed 2T.  Show me where in the bible that Jesus was forgiving as He was being lashed!  Jesus did not forgive until the acts and act of crucifying were over.  



Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: 2nd Timothy on July 12, 2005, 06:59:42 PM
Luk 23:34  Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.


Note: The soldiers did not release Him at this point....they finished the Job.   Also note He said forgive them for they know not what the DO (not did).

Perhaps the beatings had stopped, but they carried out their doings to kill Him


Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: cris on July 12, 2005, 07:01:58 PM
Jesus forgave those that were hanging Him on the cross as He was on the cross. It is and would be difficult to do.




Yes, as He hang on the cross, BUT the action had ceased.  I think this is a good lesson in common sense.  If we are to model our lives after Christ, then we should be able to see Christ asked the Father to forgive them AFTERWARDS, not while or as.

 


Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: 2nd Timothy on July 12, 2005, 07:04:26 PM
So if a person beats you, and you don't forgive them while the beating is in process.....but you forgive them after they beatings stop and they leave you for dead, whats really the difference?


Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: cris on July 12, 2005, 07:15:23 PM
Luk 23:34  Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.


Note: The soldiers did not release Him at this point....they finished the Job.   Also note He said forgive them for they know not what the DO (not did).

Perhaps the beatings had stopped, but they carried out their doings to kill Him

I just read Luke 24.  He had already been crucified.  The act of the crucifixion had ceased.  What do you mean the soldiers had not yet released Him.  How did the soldiers release Him?  The job of crucifying was finished.  Mocking Him and offering Him gall has nothing to do with it.  He came to give His life for us via the crucifixion....................the final act WAS FINISHED.  We were not forgiven, nor could we be saved until IT WAS FINISHED.  We cannot truly forgive until the act is severed.  Then, a new beginning, a rebirth, a resurrection.



Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: 2nd Timothy on July 12, 2005, 07:23:26 PM
See the previous post.  


To add a little depth to your point try this passage.


Luk 17:3  Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Luk 17:4  And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.


First step is to rebuke a brother, obviously to bring about his repentance.  If he repents then forgive, as many times as necessary.

The soldiers never repented of their sins.  They let Christ die.  No one tried to remove Him from the cross and minister to Him so that He would not die, yet Christ still asked the Father to forgive them (was the original point).

I agree, that it would be difficult to forgive someone while they were beating you...I would most certainly try to get away, and at the least rebuke them  :D.   Some of us probably would not be able to.

My question in relation to one you asked earlier.  If a brother in your church stole your car, and you sought him out to give him your second car, would that be a form of rebuke?  I wonder how he would respond to that?



Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: Soldier4Christ on July 12, 2005, 07:23:28 PM
As for Salvation we are not forgiven until the act was complete. Jesus however did ask for forgiveness to those that crucified Him before the act was finished.



Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: cris on July 12, 2005, 07:23:55 PM
So if a person beats you, and you don't forgive them while the beating is in process.....but you forgive them after they beatings stop and they leave you for dead, whats really the difference?


Is there a shrink in the house?  Hello!


2T, think about it.  It just isn't possible to forgive someone while they are beating you.  I'm not sure I have to forgive the person who left me for dead according to what Jesus said, "if they repent, forgive them."  This is how this whole thread got started in the first place.




Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: cris on July 12, 2005, 07:27:05 PM
As for Salvation we are not forgiven until the act was complete. Jesus however did ask for forgiveness to those that crucified Him before the act was finished.



I said the lashing and crucifixion had stopped before Jesus asked the Father to forgive them.  Is my statement incorrect?




Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: 2nd Timothy on July 12, 2005, 07:36:21 PM
Its quite remarkamble isn't it?


Quote
2T, think about it.  It just isn't possible to forgive someone while they are beating you.  I'm not sure I have to forgive the person who left me for dead according to what Jesus said, "if they repent, forgive them."  


Think about it like this.  If your son was beaten beyond recognition, STILL hanging on the cross with the intention of death, and He asked you to forgive those who had placed Him in that predicament, could you still forgive?   The action had stopped?   Jesus was still breathing when He asked Father to forgive them.    The soldiers still had it in mind to let Him die.....had they repented from trying to kill Him?


Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: ollie on July 12, 2005, 07:43:15 PM
Quotes are chris':
Quote
2Thessalonians 3:6 seems to refer to the brethern who avoided work or malingered.  Otherwise, unrepentant brethern would seem an oxymoron.
Brethren walking disorderly and not after the tradition delivered by Paul to the church at Thessalonia seems sin. Including the malingering and not working in the Lord.

Quote
I like your response PR and it is my sentiment above, also.
The verses quoted do not include all non brethren, but just those of a certain characteristic which are given in the verses quoted by PR.


Quote
Getting back to my question now.............if there is a "condition" to God forgiving us, that being we must forgive others  "if" they repent, then my question still goes unanswered.  If one doesn't repent, then we don't have to forgive them, correct?  This is what those verses "seem" to be saying.
I agree. That seems to be the teaching. Off hand I donot know of scripture that reveals other. Only what I previously provided in answer to the topic question. Overall though the Bible teaches there is no forgiveness of sin by God if not repented of, so I donot see why God would require something of His people that He does not do.

ollie





Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: cris on July 12, 2005, 07:48:01 PM
See the previous post.  


To add a little depth to your point try this passage.


Luk 17:3  Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Luk 17:4  And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.


First step is to rebuke a brother, obviously to bring about his repentance.  If he repents then forgive, as many times as necessary.

The soldiers never repented of their sins.  They let Christ die.  No one tried to remove Him from the cross and minister to Him so that He would not die, yet Christ still asked the Father to forgive them (was the original point).

I agree, that it would be difficult to forgive someone while they were beating you...I would most certainly try to get away, and at the least rebuke them  :D.   Some of us probably would not be able to.

My question in relation to one you asked earlier.  If a brother in your church stole your car, and you sought him out to give him your second car, would that be a form of rebuke?  I wonder how he would respond to that?




Com'on 2T, you, yourself just said that Jesus said to forgive your brother IF he repents.  So we rebuke our brother and he doesn't listen.  Where did Jesus say that we are to forgive even though he doesn't repent?  What's the point of even rebuking if we are to forgive either way? The person sinning KNOWS he's sinning.  It's written on his heart.  Can I come to Christ and get saved without repenting?  No, I cannot, and I can't truly forgive my brother unless he repents, either.

Stolen car!  Depending, he just might take me up on the offer.  I would be stupid to offer it to him in the first place.  That was the point.  I wouldn't be using common sense.  I wouldn't be using the brain God gave me.  Personally, I don't see it as a form of rebuke, especially when it's a means of transportation to work and to feed my family.  What?  I should give it to him anyway regardless, and trust that God will get me to work and feed my family.  Sorry, I don't think that's trust in God.  I think it's demeaning God.  I think it's not using the brain He gave me.









Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: 2nd Timothy on July 12, 2005, 07:51:08 PM
I agree with Ollie.   I think....

Luk 17:3  Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Luk 17:4  And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.


Sums it up nicely.   I know we got off on a tangent about whether or not Christ forgave during the acts of His beatings or not.   I still say He asked for their forgivness while His death was in progress, but clearly we are to rebuke brothers who tresspass against us in an attempt to cause their repentance therby gaining their own forgivness.

Good thread even if we did get sidetracked.


Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: cris on July 12, 2005, 07:55:05 PM
Its quite remarkamble isn't it?


Quote
2T, think about it.  It just isn't possible to forgive someone while they are beating you.  I'm not sure I have to forgive the person who left me for dead according to what Jesus said, "if they repent, forgive them."  


Think about it like this.  If your son was beaten beyond recognition, STILL hanging on the cross with the intention of death, and He asked you to forgive those who had placed Him in that predicament, could you still forgive?   The action had stopped?   Jesus was still breathing when He asked Father to forgive them.    The soldiers still had it in mind to let Him die.....had they repented from trying to kill Him?

If I believed my son was God, then yes, absolutely.

Jesus breathing has nothing to do with the severed actions.

No, the soldiers did not repent because prophecy had to be fulfilled.  Maybe that's why Jesus asked the Father to forgive them.  It wasn't a lesson for us in our everyday walk on forgiveness.




Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: 2nd Timothy on July 12, 2005, 07:58:00 PM
Cris...I AGREE!!!!!!


What I and others were saying is that Christ asked for their forgiveness even while they intended to kill Him (no repentance).   Did the soldiers ever repent of beating Him or hanging Him on the tree?   NO!  They killed Him!  They fulfilled His death as they had planned from the beginning.   Yet, Christ asked Abba to forgive them for the knew not what they were doing.   That was the point.

If you brother steals your car, rebuke Him....If He repents forgive Him.   If He doesn't call the police....lol   In the end, you could still forgive Him if it was in your heart.  If He repents and you don't forgive, then you might be in trouble.

Are we all on the same page now?


Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: ollie on July 12, 2005, 07:59:53 PM
Quote
So, if I'm in a prison yard, do I forgive the person as they continue hitting me?

Did Jesus forgive those who were beating Him as He was being beaten, or would they have had to first ask Him for forgiveness?
Good example. Our Saviour forgave them right from the cross.

ollie


Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: cris on July 12, 2005, 08:12:06 PM
Cris...I AGREE!!!!!!


What I and others were saying is that Christ asked for their forgiveness even while they intended to kill Him (no repentance).   Did the soldiers ever repent of beating Him or hanging Him on the tree?   NO!  They killed Him!  They fulfilled His death as they had planned from the beginning.   Yet, Christ asked Abba to forgive them for the knew not what they were doing.   That was the point.

If you brother steals your car, rebuke Him....If He repents forgive Him.   If He doesn't call the police....lol   In the end, you could still forgive Him if it was in your heart.  If He repents and you don't forgive, then you might be in trouble.

Are we all on the same page now?


No, we are NOT on the same page.  I'm in the DSM IV looking for your condition. ;D



Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: cris on July 12, 2005, 08:20:21 PM
Quote
So, if I'm in a prison yard, do I forgive the person as they continue hitting me?

Did Jesus forgive those who were beating Him as He was being beaten, or would they have had to first ask Him for forgiveness?
Good example. Our Saviour forgave them right from the cross.

ollie


You are missing the point JN.  If Christ was not fulfilling prophecy by being crucified, then yes, they would have had to ask Him for forgiveness and would have had to repented of wanting to crucify Him.  Then, the crucifixion would not have taken place.

No, this is not a good example, I disagree.  No one is arguing about whether He forgave them from the cross.  We are discussing forgiving our brother IF he repents.


 



Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: cris on July 12, 2005, 08:34:15 PM
Quote
So, if I'm in a prison yard, do I forgive the person as they continue hitting me?

Did Jesus forgive those who were beating Him as He was being beaten, or would they have had to first ask Him for forgiveness?
Good example. Our Saviour forgave them right from the cross.

ollie


You are missing the point JN.  If Christ was not fulfilling prophecy by being crucified, then yes, they would have had to ask Him for forgiveness and would have had to repented of wanting to crucify Him.  Then, the crucifixion would not have taken place.

No, this is not a good example, I disagree.  No one is arguing about whether He forgave them from the cross.  We are discussing forgiving our brother IF he repents.


 



They would have had to have asked Him to forgive them, and would have had to have repented of wanting to crucify Him.

Is that sentence a little more readable?  I'm tired of thinking so I jumble up my sentences worse than I normally do. ::) :P





Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: JudgeNot on July 12, 2005, 08:58:01 PM
Quote
You are missing the point JN.
Maybe – but I’ve got the butt-end firmly in my grasp.  :D

Quote
No, this is not a good example, I disagree.
I didn’t intend to make an example – I was asking a sincere question.

As God incarnate, Jesus had the absolute power to forgive sins of individuals before His sacrifice for the sins of all.  (Of course ALL is ALL – living and dead – so maybe I’m one of your “circle talkers”.)   :)

From the cross he only forgave those who asked for it.  To gain forgiveness one must fully recognize GOD and repent.  That is as it’s always been.  

Christ loves everyone but only forgives those who repent.  Why shouldn’t we do as Christ does?  He commanded us to love one another.  If a person repents and you love them (as you are commanded) then forgiveness should be automatic - something you can't help but do.  Right?

Oh – and what 2nd T said in reply #37.  Dittos for me.   ;D

Love, health and blessings to all,
JN




Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: cris on July 12, 2005, 09:14:52 PM
Quote
You are missing the point JN.
Maybe – but I’ve got the butt-end firmly in my grasp.  :D

Quote
No, this is not a good example, I disagree.
I didn’t intend to make an example – I was asking a sincere question.

As God incarnate, Jesus had the absolute power to forgive sins of individuals before His sacrifice for the sins of all.  (Of course ALL is ALL – living and dead – so maybe I’m one of your “circle talkers”.)   :)

From the cross he only forgave those who asked for it.  To gain forgiveness one must fully recognize GOD and repent.  That is as it’s always been.  

Christ loves everyone but only forgives those who repent.  Why shouldn’t we do as Christ does?  He commanded us to love one another.  If a person repents and you love them (as you are commanded) then forgiveness should be automatic - something you can't help but do.  Right?

Oh – and what 2nd T said in reply #37.  Dittos for me.   ;D

Love, health and blessings to all,
JN






Not true cause you wouldn't be able to type. ;D

I never said it was an example you made.  Someone else did.

I never mentioned anything about circle talking.  Someone else did.

When He was on the cross He only forgave those who asked for it.   ???

I agree that forgiveness will follow if we love our brothers as commanded.

If you're agreeing with reply 37, then you're contradicting this last post of yours.


 



Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: JudgeNot on July 12, 2005, 09:30:49 PM
OK - OK...
Let me go back and re-re-read this thread.  I must be lost in a black hole.

Circle Talker - you're right - that credit goes to Reba.  Man!  Am I ever in trouble NOW!  :P  

Maybe I should wait until after I take my medication again before I post anything!  ;D  NAW!  ;D

I'll get back to you on whether I disagree with myself or not.  I told me to stay out of it, but I just won't listen.

JN

BTW - thanks for the prayers and the email was a blessing to come home to! (You knew that.)  :)


Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: Soldier4Christ on July 12, 2005, 09:39:41 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/randers/merry_go_round_lg_nwm.gif)


I think I'm getting dizzzzyyyyy.......


I must agree with whoever it was that said to receive forgiveness you must first repent. Without repentance there is no true and complete forgiveness. This is God's way and we are to follow in His footsteps. Personally, for self edification, I try to forgive even those that do not repent.



Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: cris on July 12, 2005, 09:45:43 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/randers/merry_go_round_lg_nwm.gif)


I think I'm getting dizzzzyyyyy.......


I must agree with whoever it was that said to receive forgiveness you must first repent. Without repentance there is no true and complete forgiveness. This is God's way and we are to follow in His footsteps. Personally, for self edification, I try to forgive even those that do not repent.




Me too!  I got dizzy a long time ago.  You are talking on this earth, brother to brother, aren't ya PR?






Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: cris on July 12, 2005, 09:58:43 PM


BTW - thanks for the prayers and the email was a blessing to come home to! (You knew that.)  :)

You are welcome.  I hoped it would be a blessing.  No, I didn't KNOW that ......................only hoped.  How would I know unless I was told? ;) :)




Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: Soldier4Christ on July 12, 2005, 10:05:11 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/randers/merry_go_round_lg_nwm.gif)


I think I'm getting dizzzzyyyyy.......


I must agree with whoever it was that said to receive forgiveness you must first repent. Without repentance there is no true and complete forgiveness. This is God's way and we are to follow in His footsteps. Personally, for self edification, I try to forgive even those that do not repent.




Me too!  I got dizzy a long time ago.  You are talking on this earth, brother to brother, aren't ya PR?






I hope so....I think.....



Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: Reba on July 12, 2005, 10:08:20 PM

Yes, Jesus loves every person BUT He does not forgive every person unless they ask.  Then He is merciful and gracious enough to do so, IF the person repents.

I don't find Jesus forgiving His beaters as they beat Him along the way.  Jesus did not forgive them AS they crucified Him.  It was only AFTERWARD (the action had stopped) that He asked His Father to forgive them BECAUSE they didn't KNOW what they were doing.  A person who keeps hitting me knows what they're doing.



Rev 13:8
 ......the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
KJV


Jesus was slain long before He took the sins of the world to the Cross. His whole life and death is of forgivness. We just try to forgive and forgiving does not mean the person forgiven does not need to follow through the responseiblty of his/her  (tehe)  actions. Loaned  money should be repayed. Bad guys like ted bundy should have the fullness of justice ,as he did. Forgivness does mean be stupid.

Not all folks are our brothers some are of their father. Jesus said...

John 8:44-47

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
KJV








Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: Soldier4Christ on July 12, 2005, 10:56:54 PM



Mar 11:25  And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
Mar 11:26  But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.


Luk 6:35  But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Luk 6:36  Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Luk 6:37  Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
 




Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: cris on July 12, 2005, 11:10:44 PM



Mar 11:25  And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
Mar 11:26  But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.


Luk 6:35  But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Luk 6:36  Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Luk 6:37  Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
 




If we feel ought against our neighbor, then we have to repent of that before coming into His presence in prayer.  It very well could be that our neighbor has no idea we're holding a grudge against him.  This is quite different from when one sins against another deliberately. He must repent before being forgiven.

Being merciful and loving one's enemies doesn't have anything to do with the original question of whether one can be forgiven by another, without first repenting.

Maybe my posts haven't been real clear about this subject.  I really don't know.

 


Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: Soldier4Christ on July 13, 2005, 01:30:45 AM
The problem we have here, I believe, is an understanding of forgive. There are two meanings of this word.

When I say that we should forgive all men of their trespasses toward us I am using forgive in the context of "ceasing to feel resentment toward". If we continue to feel resentment toward someone, then we are continuing to hate. We are commanded to love all. How can we love and hate someone at the same time?

When God forgives us our sins, then He is "granting relief for payment of". This is done on condition of accepting Him as our Saviour and repentance of our sins. Should we "grant relief of payment of" someone that is not repentant? I don't think that God requires us to do so nor do I think that we are given the power to do so.





Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: cris on July 13, 2005, 01:43:12 AM
The problem we have here, I believe, is an understanding of forgive. There are two meanings of this word.

When I say that we should forgive all men of their trespasses toward us I am using forgive in the context of "ceasing to feel resentment toward". If we continue to feel resentment toward someone, then we are continuing to hate. We are commanded to love all. How can we love and hate someone at the same time?

When God forgives us our sins, then He is "granting relief for payment of". This is done on condition of accepting Him as our Saviour and repentance of our sins. Should we "grant relief of payment of" someone that is not repentant? I don't think that God requires us to do so nor do I think that we are given the power to do so.






I do believe we are on the same page PR.  It's late and I've been thinking far too much today.  Tends to make one tired at times. ;D  I'm going to hit the hay.

Grace and peace,
cris



Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: ollie on July 13, 2005, 01:05:46 PM
Quote
So, if I'm in a prison yard, do I forgive the person as they continue hitting me?

Did Jesus forgive those who were beating Him as He was being beaten, or would they have had to first ask Him for forgiveness?
Good example. Our Saviour forgave them right from the cross.

ollie


You are missing the point JN.  If Christ was not fulfilling prophecy by being crucified, then yes, they would have had to ask Him for forgiveness and would have had to repented of wanting to crucify Him.  Then, the crucifixion would not have taken place.

No, this is not a good example, I disagree.  No one is arguing about whether He forgave them from the cross.  We are discussing forgiving our brother IF he repents.


 



They would have had to have asked Him to forgive them, and would have had to have repented of wanting to crucify Him.

Is that sentence a little more readable?  I'm tired of thinking so I jumble up my sentences worse than I normally do. ::) :P




The crucifiers thought they were within the law condemning a criminal. Thus the "they know not what they do".

Christ's requesting His Father to forgive the crucifiers is not an example of a brother forgiving a brother who repents, but rather of the Christ requesting forgiveness for who he will as he is the Christ and can do so, just as he took the thief to paradise with him. It is an example of requesting forgiveness of people doing what they think is lawful and not knowing the truth of the situation. One Roman soldier seemed to be remorsefull when he admitted that this was truly the son of God.

The beaters and the punishers knew they were beating and punishing, but thought they were within the law of God they lived under. They probably did not think of it as sin to be repented of or wrong doing that must be made right.

ollie


Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: cris on July 13, 2005, 02:10:34 PM

AMEN!

I agree with you here Ollie.


Grace and peace,
cris



Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: Marco25 on July 18, 2005, 01:03:32 AM
WOW!!! This went alot more indepth then i really wanted but...hey whats the bords for.  :) :)


Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: ForHisGlory on July 18, 2005, 05:28:58 AM
From my personal experience I will tell you this: Do not wait until some-one asks to be forgiven, forgive them completely the moment they wrong you, brother or not.
For 15 years I never forgave my Mother-in-law, which was also from my congregation. This unforgiveness grew and grew and later became such a stumbling block that I left the church and stopped to pray. She was not even aware that I felt wronged by her, and she did not ask forgiveness. But my bitterness grew and it took over my whole live, it influenced my relationship with my hubbie, my children and even my own mother.
One day while I was speaking to some-one I heard a clear voice saying to me: You are changing and are doing the same things you hate in your MIL. I stopped in mid sentence.
The following day a sister I grew up with in church phoned me, (we haven't spoken for 5 years) and asked if I wanted to go on a camp with her. I went and God showed me that I need to forgive. I need to let go of the wrong she did.

This is what I hope you remember. The biggest lesson I learned out of this is :
To forgive some-one is not for them, it is to make your own live better.
I have never felt more free and loved then now. My MIL still knows nothing. But I know and God knows.
Forgiveness changed MY live for ever.



Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: 2nd Timothy on July 18, 2005, 05:45:41 AM
That really touched my heart.  Thank you for sharing that- ForHisGlory


(p.s. welcome to CU)


Title: Re:Being Forgiven.
Post by: Soldier4Christ on July 18, 2005, 11:39:24 AM
From my personal experience I will tell you this: Do not wait until some-one asks to be forgiven, forgive them completely the moment they wrong you, brother or not.
For 15 years I never forgave my Mother-in-law, which was also from my congregation. This unforgiveness grew and grew and later became such a stumbling block that I left the church and stopped to pray. She was not even aware that I felt wronged by her, and she did not ask forgiveness. But my bitterness grew and it took over my whole live, it influenced my relationship with my hubbie, my children and even my own mother.
One day while I was speaking to some-one I heard a clear voice saying to me: You are changing and are doing the same things you hate in your MIL. I stopped in mid sentence.
The following day a sister I grew up with in church phoned me, (we haven't spoken for 5 years) and asked if I wanted to go on a camp with her. I went and God showed me that I need to forgive. I need to let go of the wrong she did.

This is what I hope you remember. The biggest lesson I learned out of this is :
To forgive some-one is not for them, it is to make your own live better.
I have never felt more free and loved then now. My MIL still knows nothing. But I know and God knows.
Forgiveness changed MY live for ever.



Amen, ForHisGlory. Welcome to the forum and thank you for sharing this with us. This is exactly what I was saying earlier.