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Author Topic: Being Forgiven.  (Read 4232 times)
Marco25
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« on: July 10, 2005, 02:57:19 AM »

Hello I am a first time poster. I do alot of reading and such because most of the people are highly educated and enlightend people of god and I dont want to say anything  stupid lol. Well anyway here is my question. Awhile back in my youth group we had a conversation about being forgiven. My friend asked the question if were forgiven for all our sins why do we still repent. The room went quite for a few minutes. It was a big question and not many people exactly new what to say so the question wasnt fully answered.Some people said we do it out of self etification and others said we do because we feel guilty and it makes us feel better, some people dont believe your not christian if you dont even want to ask for forgivness. I kinda think its a personal relationship thing like I know I dont have to ask but I do anyway??? Huh I'm really looking for a scripture based answer but anything is welcome : )
« Last Edit: July 10, 2005, 03:03:09 AM by Marco25 » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2005, 03:56:26 AM »

Marco25,

The question you ask is an excellant question and one that deserves the best answer possible.

None of us are perfect and as such we will continue to sin. If we do not repent of that sin then we are not humbling ourselves to God nor are we showing conviction (regretting having done that sin). God wants us to humble ourselves before Him. He also wants us to show that we are true in our feelings and desire to please Him. We are told by Jesus that we need to repent. To not do so is to displease Him.



2Co 12:21  And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.


Jam 4:7  Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jam 4:8  Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jam 4:9  Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jam 4:10  Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.


Luk 13:3  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Act 17:30  And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:


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Joh 9:4  I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
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« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2005, 12:46:55 PM »

I came across this Bible study this morning on this very subject. This is aimed primarily toward the unsaved but it is also applicable toward us that are.


ITíS YOUR ATTITUDE

By Cornelius R. Stam

Many people fear that they will never reach heaven.
Some try not to think about it, while others struggle to "be
good," hoping that they will finally "make it." Very few,
comparatively, are sure of heaven.
The real pity is that so few understand what it is that
keeps people out of heaven. If you are confused about this,
just remember that according to Scripture, it is not oneís
sins that keep him out of heaven, but his attitude.
God has made full provision for our sins. "Christ died for
our sins" (I Cor. 15:3) and "we have redemption through His
blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His
grace" (Eph. 1:7).
But God has made no provision for a self-righteous at-
titude. He gave the Law "that every mouth may be stopped
and that all the world may be brought in guilty before God"
(Rom. 3:19). Thus He does not want you to keep saying
things in your own defense. In fact, before you can know
God as your Savior, you must recognize Him as your Judge,
righteously condemning you as a sinner.
Often, when capital crimes are involved, the defendantís
attorney will tell him: "It will be to your advantage to plead
guilty and to throw yourself on the mercy of the court."
This is especially true of us as sinners in the sight of a
holy God. If we will only plead guilty and cast ourselves
upon His mercy we will find Him more than gracious, for
He has already paid the penalty for our sins Himself.
Yes, unsaved friend, it will be to your eternal advantage
to plead guilty before God and to cast yourself upon His
mercy, "for the wages of sin is death, but THE GIFT OF
GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST
OUR LORD" (Rom. 6:23).

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Joh 9:4  I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
ollie
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« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2005, 08:51:30 AM »

When the disciple asked Christ to teach them how to pray and what they should pray for, Christ gave them this example.

 Luke 11:1.  "And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.
 2.  And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
 3.  Give us day by day our daily bread.
 4.  And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil."


In the example given Christ tells His disciples to ask for forgiveness of our sins in prayer. However there is a condition that we must also forgive those that sin against us, if they repent of it, in order to receive forgiveness. Matthew 6:14, Luke 17:3-4.

Then also John tells us:

1 John 1:8.  "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
 9.  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."


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« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2005, 02:15:04 PM »



In the example given Christ tells His disciples to ask for forgiveness of our sins in prayer. However there is a condition that we must also forgive those that sin against us, if they repent of it, in order to receive forgiveness. Matthew 6:14, Luke 17:3-4.



ollie



Very interesting!  Does the above mean we are not expected to forgive those who do not repent?


Grace and peace,
cris

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ollie
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« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2005, 10:09:20 AM »



In the example given Christ tells His disciples to ask for forgiveness of our sins in prayer. However there is a condition that we must also forgive those that sin against us, if they repent of it, in order to receive forgiveness. Matthew 6:14, Luke 17:3-4.



ollie



Very interesting!  Does the above mean we are not expected to forgive those who do not repent?


Grace and peace,
cris


We must remember we are talking of the brethren in Christ. His disciples. The forgiveness of those, outside Christ, who might sin against us, can only be covered by God's love and our sharing it with them, so that they might accept His gift and overcome sin through Christ and receive forgiveness.

The bible seems to teach withdrawal from unrepentant brethren sinners. 2 Thessalonians 3:6
It seems to be a sort of chastisement to humble the unrepentant sinner to repentance and forgiveness from all.

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« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2005, 11:55:57 AM »

Are we not told in 1Tim 6:5 tp withdraw from those that are not of the brethern?

1Ti 6:5  Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.


If they are destitiute of the truth they are not brethern although they may portend to be.

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Joh 9:4  I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
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« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2005, 03:53:14 PM »


2Thessalonians 3:6 seems to refer to the brethern who avoided work or malingered.  Otherwise, unrepentant brethern would seem an oxymoron.

I like your response PR and it is my sentiment above, also.


Getting back to my question now.............if there is a "condition" to God forgiving us, that being we must forgive others  "if" they repent, then my question still goes unanswered.  If one doesn't repent, then we don't have to forgive them, correct?  This is what those verses "seem" to be saying.


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« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2005, 05:18:47 PM »

Great thread!

Quote
if there is a "condition" to God forgiving us, that being we must forgive others  "if" they repent, then my question still goes unanswered.  If one doesn't repent, then we don't have to forgive them, correct?  This is what those verses "seem" to be saying.


This verse comes to mind cris....


Mat 18:21  Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22  Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.


I know I've lost count a few times...lol...j/k

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2005, 05:28:41 PM »

Great thread!

Quote
if there is a "condition" to God forgiving us, that being we must forgive others  "if" they repent, then my question still goes unanswered.  If one doesn't repent, then we don't have to forgive them, correct?  This is what those verses "seem" to be saying.


This verse comes to mind cris....


Mat 18:21  Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22  Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.


I know I've lost count a few times...lol...j/k

Grace and Peace!


There are times when I think it's absolutely imperative to use the brain God gave us.  I feel Jesus Christ had the utmost of common sense.  Common sense says, forgive someone if they repent.  It's commanded of us.  Reminds me of the verse that says "turn the other cheek" and "if your brother steals your shirt, then give him also your jacket".  Now, if I have two cars and my brother steals one of them, should I hunt him down and give him my other car?

 
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« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2005, 05:37:48 PM »

Assuming this is a brother we are talking about and not an un-known thief on the street....

NASB
Mat 18:21  Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
Mat 18:22  Jesus *said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
Mat 18:23  "For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
Mat 18:24  "When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
Mat 18:25  "But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
Mat 18:26  "So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
Mat 18:27  "And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28  "But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, 'Pay back what you owe.'
Mat 18:29  "So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
Mat 18:30  "But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
Mat 18:31  "So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
Mat 18:32  "Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
Mat 18:33  'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
Mat 18:34  "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
Mat 18:35  "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."
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« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2005, 05:53:36 PM »

Assuming this is a brother we are talking about and not an un-known thief on the street....

NASB
Mat 18:21  Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
Mat 18:22  Jesus *said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
Mat 18:23  "For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
Mat 18:24  "When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
Mat 18:25  "But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
Mat 18:26  "So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
Mat 18:27  "And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28  "But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, 'Pay back what you owe.'
Mat 18:29  "So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
Mat 18:30  "But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
Mat 18:31  "So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
Mat 18:32  "Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
Mat 18:33  'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
Mat 18:34  "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
Mat 18:35  "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."


All of the above still does not answer my original question.  Here you are comparing apples and oranges.  Common sense says if someone owes me money I can forgive them that debt or necessarily not.  If everyone forgave everyone money debts, I hate to think where the economy would be.  At any rate when the slave told his master he would repay it all, the master knew he couldn't.  When the slave demanded money from his fellow slave, he didn't have the mindset of his master.  We're talking about tangible forgiveness here.  It's different.

If you hit me and don't stop hitting me, am I supposed to forgive you as you continue hitting me?  I hope you don't say yes, cause if ya do, I'm going to recommend a shrink.

Grace and peace
cris


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« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2005, 06:01:01 PM »

Forgiving someone of their offense and not allowing your self to be in a position for them to continue that offense is two different things.

If I loan someone money and they don't repay it should I "loan" to them again or just give it to them since they won't pay it back? If someone hits me should I stick around them so they can hit me again?

I think that the verse 1Tim 6:5 applies here also.

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« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2005, 06:01:11 PM »

Amen Brothers and Sisters,

YES! - this is a great thread.

Unforgiveness is a burden on the heart, both for the person who refuses to forgive and the person seeking forgiveness. In fact, I think that unforgiveness in the heart of a brother or sister in Christ is like a cancer that harms and consumes the goodness that God gives us. At the very least, it harms our walk in the Spirit and our testimony before men.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 Timothy 6:12  Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
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« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2005, 06:03:41 PM »

Quotes are "Pastor Roger's":
Quote
Are we not told in 1Tim 6:5 tp withdraw from those that are not of the brethern?
It says "any man" and then calls out conditions of any man that if had should be withdrawn from. I don't think it covers all heathen/those not in Christ else how could we draw them to us with the gospel. We are only to withdraw from types/behaviours mentioned not all.

Quote
1Ti 6:5  Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
That cannot mean the heathen with a ready heart to hear the gospel and come to Christ. It does not mean all "non brethren", but stipulates certain characteristics held by some "non brethren".


Quote
If they are destitiute of the truth they are not brethern although they may portend to be.


Very true and the types to be withdrawn from are stipulated.

ollie
Quote
« Last Edit: July 12, 2005, 07:49:25 PM by ollie » Logged

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