Being Forgiven.

[cris]

So if a person beats you, and you don't forgive them while the beating is in process.....but you forgive them after they beatings stop and they leave you for dead, whats really the difference?

Is there a shrink in the house?  Hello!


2T, think about it.  It just isn't possible to forgive someone while they are beating you.  I'm not sure I have to forgive the person who left me for dead according to what Jesus said, "if they repent, forgive them."  This is how this whole thread got started in the first place.

[cris]

As for Salvation we are not forgiven until the act was complete. Jesus however did ask for forgiveness to those that crucified Him before the act was finished.

I said the lashing and crucifixion had stopped before Jesus asked the Father to forgive them.  Is my statement incorrect?

[2nd Timothy]

Its quite remarkamble isn't it?

2T, think about it.  It just isn't possible to forgive someone while they are beating you.  I'm not sure I have to forgive the person who left me for dead according to what Jesus said, "if they repent, forgive them."  

Think about it like this.  If your son was beaten beyond recognition, STILL hanging on the cross with the intention of death, and He asked you to forgive those who had placed Him in that predicament, could you still forgive?   The action had stopped?   Jesus was still breathing when He asked Father to forgive them.    The soldiers still had it in mind to let Him die.....had they repented from trying to kill Him?

[ollie]

Quotes are chris':

2Thessalonians 3:6 seems to refer to the brethern who avoided work or malingered.  Otherwise, unrepentant brethern would seem an oxymoron.

Brethren walking disorderly and not after the tradition delivered by Paul to the church at Thessalonia seems sin. Including the malingering and not working in the Lord.

I like your response PR and it is my sentiment above, also.

The verses quoted do not include all non brethren, but just those of a certain characteristic which are given in the verses quoted by PR.

Getting back to my question now.............if there is a "condition" to God forgiving us, that being we must forgive others  "if" they repent, then my question still goes unanswered.  If one doesn't repent, then we don't have to forgive them, correct?  This is what those verses "seem" to be saying.

I agree. That seems to be the teaching. Off hand I donot know of scripture that reveals other. Only what I previously provided in answer to the topic question. Overall though the Bible teaches there is no forgiveness of sin by God if not repented of, so I donot see why God would require something of His people that He does not do.

ollie

[cris]

See the previous post.  


To add a little depth to your point try this passage.


Luk 17:3  Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Luk 17:4  And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.


First step is to rebuke a brother, obviously to bring about his repentance.  If he repents then forgive, as many times as necessary.

The soldiers never repented of their sins.  They let Christ die.  No one tried to remove Him from the cross and minister to Him so that He would not die, yet Christ still asked the Father to forgive them (was the original point).

I agree, that it would be difficult to forgive someone while they were beating you...I would most certainly try to get away, and at the least rebuke them  .   Some of us probably would not be able to.

My question in relation to one you asked earlier.  If a brother in your church stole your car, and you sought him out to give him your second car, would that be a form of rebuke?  I wonder how he would respond to that?

Com'on 2T, you, yourself just said that Jesus said to forgive your brother IF he repents.  So we rebuke our brother and he doesn't listen.  Where did Jesus say that we are to forgive even though he doesn't repent?  What's the point of even rebuking if we are to forgive either way? The person sinning KNOWS he's sinning.  It's written on his heart.  Can I come to Christ and get saved without repenting?  No, I cannot, and I can't truly forgive my brother unless he repents, either.

Stolen car!  Depending, he just might take me up on the offer.  I would be stupid to offer it to him in the first place.  That was the point.  I wouldn't be using common sense.  I wouldn't be using the brain God gave me.  Personally, I don't see it as a form of rebuke, especially when it's a means of transportation to work and to feed my family.  What?  I should give it to him anyway regardless, and trust that God will get me to work and feed my family.  Sorry, I don't think that's trust in God.  I think it's demeaning God.  I think it's not using the brain He gave me.

[2nd Timothy]

I agree with Ollie.   I think....

Luk 17:3  Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Luk 17:4  And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.


Sums it up nicely.   I know we got off on a tangent about whether or not Christ forgave during the acts of His beatings or not.   I still say He asked for their forgivness while His death was in progress, but clearly we are to rebuke brothers who tresspass against us in an attempt to cause their repentance therby gaining their own forgivness.

Good thread even if we did get sidetracked.

[cris]

Its quite remarkamble isn't it?

2T, think about it.  It just isn't possible to forgive someone while they are beating you.  I'm not sure I have to forgive the person who left me for dead according to what Jesus said, "if they repent, forgive them."  

Think about it like this.  If your son was beaten beyond recognition, STILL hanging on the cross with the intention of death, and He asked you to forgive those who had placed Him in that predicament, could you still forgive?   The action had stopped?   Jesus was still breathing when He asked Father to forgive them.    The soldiers still had it in mind to let Him die.....had they repented from trying to kill Him?

If I believed my son was God, then yes, absolutely.

Jesus breathing has nothing to do with the severed actions.

No, the soldiers did not repent because prophecy had to be fulfilled.  Maybe that's why Jesus asked the Father to forgive them.  It wasn't a lesson for us in our everyday walk on forgiveness.

[2nd Timothy]

Cris...I AGREE!!!!!!


What I and others were saying is that Christ asked for their forgiveness even while they intended to kill Him (no repentance).   Did the soldiers ever repent of beating Him or hanging Him on the tree?   NO!  They killed Him!  They fulfilled His death as they had planned from the beginning.   Yet, Christ asked Abba to forgive them for the knew not what they were doing.   That was the point.

If you brother steals your car, rebuke Him....If He repents forgive Him.   If He doesn't call the police....lol   In the end, you could still forgive Him if it was in your heart.  If He repents and you don't forgive, then you might be in trouble.

Are we all on the same page now?

[ollie]

So, if I'm in a prison yard, do I forgive the person as they continue hitting me?

Did Jesus forgive those who were beating Him as He was being beaten, or would they have had to first ask Him for forgiveness?

Good example. Our Saviour forgave them right from the cross.

ollie

[cris]

Cris...I AGREE!!!!!!


What I and others were saying is that Christ asked for their forgiveness even while they intended to kill Him (no repentance).   Did the soldiers ever repent of beating Him or hanging Him on the tree?   NO!  They killed Him!  They fulfilled His death as they had planned from the beginning.   Yet, Christ asked Abba to forgive them for the knew not what they were doing.   That was the point.

If you brother steals your car, rebuke Him....If He repents forgive Him.   If He doesn't call the police....lol   In the end, you could still forgive Him if it was in your heart.  If He repents and you don't forgive, then you might be in trouble.

Are we all on the same page now?

No, we are NOT on the same page.  I'm in the DSM IV looking for your condition.

[cris]

So, if I'm in a prison yard, do I forgive the person as they continue hitting me?

Did Jesus forgive those who were beating Him as He was being beaten, or would they have had to first ask Him for forgiveness?

Good example. Our Saviour forgave them right from the cross.

ollie

You are missing the point JN.  If Christ was not fulfilling prophecy by being crucified, then yes, they would have had to ask Him for forgiveness and would have had to repented of wanting to crucify Him.  Then, the crucifixion would not have taken place.

No, this is not a good example, I disagree.  No one is arguing about whether He forgave them from the cross.  We are discussing forgiving our brother IF he repents.


 

[cris]

So, if I'm in a prison yard, do I forgive the person as they continue hitting me?

Did Jesus forgive those who were beating Him as He was being beaten, or would they have had to first ask Him for forgiveness?

Good example. Our Saviour forgave them right from the cross.

ollie

You are missing the point JN.  If Christ was not fulfilling prophecy by being crucified, then yes, they would have had to ask Him for forgiveness and would have had to repented of wanting to crucify Him.  Then, the crucifixion would not have taken place.

No, this is not a good example, I disagree.  No one is arguing about whether He forgave them from the cross.  We are discussing forgiving our brother IF he repents.


 

They would have had to have asked Him to forgive them, and would have had to have repented of wanting to crucify Him.

Is that sentence a little more readable?  I'm tired of thinking so I jumble up my sentences worse than I normally do.

[JudgeNot]

You are missing the point JN.

Maybe – but I’ve got the butt-end firmly in my grasp.  

No, this is not a good example, I disagree.

I didn’t intend to make an example – I was asking a sincere question.

As God incarnate, Jesus had the absolute power to forgive sins of individuals before His sacrifice for the sins of all.  (Of course ALL is ALL – living and dead – so maybe I’m one of your “circle talkers”.)  

From the cross he only forgave those who asked for it.  To gain forgiveness one must fully recognize GOD and repent.  That is as it’s always been.  

Christ loves everyone but only forgives those who repent.  Why shouldn’t we do as Christ does?  He commanded us to love one another.  If a person repents and you love them (as you are commanded) then forgiveness should be automatic - something you can't help but do.  Right?

Oh – and what 2nd T said in reply #37.  Dittos for me.  

Love, health and blessings to all,
JN

[cris]

You are missing the point JN.

Maybe – but I’ve got the butt-end firmly in my grasp.  

No, this is not a good example, I disagree.

I didn’t intend to make an example – I was asking a sincere question.

As God incarnate, Jesus had the absolute power to forgive sins of individuals before His sacrifice for the sins of all.  (Of course ALL is ALL – living and dead – so maybe I’m one of your “circle talkers”.)  

From the cross he only forgave those who asked for it.  To gain forgiveness one must fully recognize GOD and repent.  That is as it’s always been.  

Christ loves everyone but only forgives those who repent.  Why shouldn’t we do as Christ does?  He commanded us to love one another.  If a person repents and you love them (as you are commanded) then forgiveness should be automatic - something you can't help but do.  Right?

Oh – and what 2nd T said in reply #37.  Dittos for me.  

Love, health and blessings to all,
JN

Not true cause you wouldn't be able to type.

I never said it was an example you made.  Someone else did.

I never mentioned anything about circle talking.  Someone else did.

When He was on the cross He only forgave those who asked for it.  

I agree that forgiveness will follow if we love our brothers as commanded.

If you're agreeing with reply 37, then you're contradicting this last post of yours.


 

[JudgeNot]

OK - OK...
Let me go back and re-re-read this thread.  I must be lost in a black hole.

Circle Talker - you're right - that credit goes to Reba.  Man!  Am I ever in trouble NOW!    

Maybe I should wait until after I take my medication again before I post anything!    NAW!  

I'll get back to you on whether I disagree with myself or not.  I told me to stay out of it, but I just won't listen.

JN

BTW - thanks for the prayers and the email was a blessing to come home to! (You knew that.)