Rapture

[musicllover]

Howdy,
         this is to those on the thread who are as confused as I am. I looked up the author Big D suggested and seems to be a follower of, Joel Fink he is a believer of the ..."The Free Grace movement is housed under a pretty big tent. Finck represents Free Grace believers, who are sometimes referred to as Ultra-Dispensationalists. (Finck actually calls himself a mid-Acts Dispensationalist.)....If you would like to read the small bio on him concerning another of his books you can read it here......
http://www.faithalone.org/journal/bookreviews/finck.html

I hope that works, not sure how all this linking stuff works. But either way I just typed in Finck name on a search engine and I'm sure you'll find something.

NOW what the heck is ultra dispensationalistism.......  had to spit my teeth out for that one  

musicllover

 Thanks musiclover. The link worked and was just as confusing as what BigD has offered, so I guess they're alligned.

 Bronzesnake

I agree Bronze,
        try this one and see if it helps this group, or groups as of yet can't agree themselves either.....http://mb-soft.com/believe/text/ultradis.htm
I'm not sure I'm helping myself much trying to understand where Big D is coming from, I'm going to stick wtih what I've understood for sometime now..... pretribber all the way, and NO I didn't did a bib to say that one...

musicllover

[musicllover]

Bronze:
I am leaving in about 10 minuted to go to me great grand-daugheters 4the bithday party which is about 100 miles away. Won't have time to answer you today, but will probabley do that tomarrow.

Ordering the book will be a GREAT help in your understanding my position. Hope more will do it.

Gota run.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

BigD,
    I can wait, but in the mean time answer me a few quesitons.
    I looked up the dispensational group, to be honests I am concerned.
Do you believe that Jesus is the only son of God?
How many ways is there to get to Heaven?
Do you believe in water batptism?
Do you believe in the Lords supper?
How man dispensations are there?
for just a few.
I know this may not seem like it has much to do with the thread, but for me it does. Its all in the fruits we bare, if a cult was here teaching then we would have a problem, (not saying your from a cult but I want to be sure)
musicllover

[BigD]

Bronze:
Hello BigD my friend.
Did you get drunk on birthday cake?  

BigD:
No, but it sure was good. Probably ate tooooo much of it.

Bronze:
I agree with shrek, your theory on this one year tribulation is confused.

BigD:
If you can understand the gap in  Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born,...and the government shall be upon His shoulders." If you can understand the gap between the to phrases I mentioned in Isaiah 61:1,2. If you can understand that there was a break in the dispensation of the Law to the dispensation of grace, and then after the rapture everything will be back under the Law, Then I don't know why it is so hard to understand the break in the Tribulation.

With the setting aside of Israel, that put a break in the dispensation of the Law. Being the Tribulation started at Pentedost, It was also interrupted at that time. God was still dealing with the Jews as His favorite people.

Bronze:
Why was the stoning of Stephen so important that the clock should stop there?

BigD:
As I explained earlier, It was after Israel, as a nation, rejected the Trinity. The Jews, as a nation, have already rejected God the Father and God the Son. With the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7 is when the leaders of Israel rejected the Third Person of the Trinity. It is after the stoning of Stephen that God set the nation of Israel aside and raised up the Apostle Paul, in Acts 9, to usher in the dispensation of grace. God informed Peter in Acts 10 that he no longer to considered the Jew "unclean". He showed Peter that the Jew and Gentile are now on equal footing and without distinction.

Was the Gentile brought up to the position of the Jews? NO!!! The Jew was brought down to the same level that the Gentiles were brought down in Genesis 11, at the Tower of Bable.

BigD:
The Chruch, the Body of Christ was not yet "made" (see 2 Tim.2:15).

Bronze:
My friend - once again you have confused me. What exactly does 2Tim 2:15 have to do with the body of Christ not being "made" yet?

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I mean, it's a great verse, but anyone could use that verse, even if their doctrine is severely flawed. Does using that verse make any doctrine correct?

BigD:
Forgive me Bronze. I wrote 2Tim.2:15 when I meant Ephesians 2:15. (One of my senior moments.) I will agree with you though 2Tim.2:15 I a verse that one should follow. However I will continue to show how Eph.2:15 fits in, but I will include a few more verses.

I will get to that, but first:

Romans 11:7-12 tells of the setting aside of the nation of Israel. Paul tell us in verse 25 "...that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."  So Israel is temporarily blinded and will end with the fulness of the Gentile - the rapture of the Chruch the Body of Christ.

What is going to happen after the rapture? Well, verse 26, 27 gives us the answer. "And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written. There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sin.

Why did God set Israel aside (temporarily) like he did the Gentiles back in Genesis 11?

The answer is found in verse 32 "For God hath concluded them all (Gentileand Jew) in unbelief, that he might show mercy upon all.

Well if ALL are concluded in unbelief, how is God going bring salvation to all mankind.

Here is where Eph.2:15 comes in. I will quote several verses.

If you will recall back in the other forum and the dialogue with Quasar, I had shown him from Scripture that the Church, the Body of Christ, was not formed "made" until after the setting aside of Israel. For review, I will just say that the Chruch, the Body of Christ, is made up of Jew and Gentile, on equal footing and without distinction and not under the Law. NEVER, prior to the stoning of Stephen and the raising up of Saul Paul do we find those mentioned conditions.

Ephesians 2:13 "BUT NOW (wasn't that way before) in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off (Gentiles) are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he (Jesus) is our peace, who hath made both (Jew and Gentile) one and broken down the middle wall of partition between us (Jew and Gentile):
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments; for to MAKE in himself of twain (set aside Jews and set aside Gentiles) one new man (the Body of Christ), so making peace:
16 And that he might reconcile both (Jew and Gentile) in one body (the Body of Christ, the Chruch for today) by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off (Gentiles), and to them that were nigh (Jews).
18 For through him we both (Jew and Gentile) have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

To be continues:

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

[BigD]

Part 2

Bronze:
 The scriptures clearly mark the time when Jesus was "cut off" at 483 years. Up to that point all the weeks were complete 490 year sections, why do you think the scriptures suddenly detail a 483 year period and ascribe it to the exact time when Jesus was crucified?

Wouldn't it make more sense if the scriptures described a 494 year period to correspond with Stephen's death if you were correct? That's a year from Acts 2 to Stephen's death. I subscribe it's an even longer period of time from the crucifixion of Jesus to Stephen's death, which would cut into the final seven year timeline from the signing of the peace deal,  but for arguments sake I'll go along with your numbers.

Again; the scriptures clearly provide for a seven year period (not six years) which begins with the antichrist signing the peace deal. What do we do with your extra year?

BigD:
I don't see where what you posted above disproves that the Tribulation didn't start at Pentecost. You can do that very easily if you will just show me that Joel was not speaking of the Tribulation in 2:28-32 or that Peter didn't know what he was talking about in Acts 2:15-20. I have told you a couple of times that I would change my views if you could show me that from Scripture.

I haven't found any Scripture that states that the Tribulation cannot begin until after the treaty is signed. Point is out to me if there is. Is it the Body of Christ that is going to sign the peace treaty with the anti-Christ, so that the Tribulation can start immediately after the rapture? If so, Who in the Body of Christ will do it?

Israel, as a nation, will sign the treaty with the anti-Christ. It is restored Israel that will do it. Just how long a preiod between the rapture and the restoration of Israel and the signing of the peace treaty with the anti-Christ.

Just to reply to what you posted above, I am going to quote from the book "REVELATION for the ADVANCED STUDENT" by Jack D. Hastings. There are areas where I do disagree with him in the book but the part I am going to copy; I do agree with him.

>SNIP< So what we have here is:
(69 weeks of years - 483 years), the church age intervening (1 week of years - 7 years) Now looking at the 70 weeks of yars more closely, let's see what is to be accomplished:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy." (verse 24)

"upon they people and upon they holy city," It is upon the Jewish people and upon the City of Jerusalem: "to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sin," it is the Jewish Transgression and their sin of rejection that is to be brought to an end; "and to make reconciliation for iniquity," it is not the crucifixion of Christ that is the reconciliation, but rather the means by which the reconciliation was made. At His glorious appearing, at the end of the 70th wee, our Lord, on the basis of His sacrifice at Calvary wil "reconcile" his chosen people (Israle unto himself. >Snip<

Bronze:
Finally my friend with a 73 candled cake - You can not have one year of tribulation having passed and still ascribe to a Pre-Trib rapture. Even if you believe there were no "Christians" after Jesus died - it's still Post Trib, even if only one year of tribulation passed and the Church was not as of yet born. Pre-Trib rapture means the Tribulation period will not begin before the Rapture. It doesn't mean the Church is not born before the Tribulation.

For example; let's say the Church was not born until the fifth year of Tribulation has occurred, and the Rapture occurred at that point. Is that still a Pre-Trib Rapture? Of course it isn't, because the Tribulation has already begun.

BigD:
The Chruch, the Body of Christ, was not yet made when the Tribulation started in Acts 2 so it did not go through the Tribulation then. It just didn't exist. The Body of Christ was formed AFTER Israel was set aside and will be raptured prior to the resumption of the Tribulation. I am pre-Trib all the way.

Bronze:
Take care Big Guy...and thanks for your sincere book offer, that was truly generous. I will e-mail you with my address, but I must be honest with you. I can tell you for certain that I will never ascribe to your logic, however, I think there is wisdom in at least attempting to understand your viewpoint. At the very least, I could then, offer you a more effective rebuttal.

BigD.
I will mail you the book the day I get your address. I forgot to give my e-mail address. It is jellema@alliancecom.net.

You know, I have bought and given away a few cases of Joel Finck's books. The only ones that I hear from are the ones that were grateful for what they have learned from it. Several have requested the book in order to refute its contents. I have yet to hear from even one of them.

You may or may not agree with anything you read in the book. I have several book by authors that I basically disagree with. However, my knowledge of the Scriptures have been broadened by reading them. They made me be a Berean to "see if these things are so." So, my recommendation to you, when you read it, is to check what Joel says with the Bible.

I do know Joel personally and consider him a personal friend. However, I have had my views many years before I ever heard of him or met him. So please don't consider me a follower of Joel Finck. Just consider us "like minded believers."

Looking forward to you mailing address, and I am enjoying our dialogue.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

[BigD]

quote author=musicllover link=board=4;threadid=6559;start=30#msg92394 date=1106414276]
Howdy,
         this is to those on the thread who are as confused as I am. I looked up the author Big D suggested and seems to be a follower of, Joel Fink he is a believer of the ..."The Free Grace movement is housed under a pretty big tent. Finck represents Free Grace believers, who are sometimes referred to as Ultra-Dispensationalists. (Finck actually calls himself a mid-Acts Dispensationalist.)....If you would like to read the small bio on him concerning another of his books you can read it here......
http://www.faithalone.org/journal/bookreviews/finck.html

I hope that works, not sure how all this linking stuff works. But either way I just typed in Finck name on a search engine and I'm sure you'll find something.

NOW what the heck is ultra dispensationalistism.......  had to spit my teeth out for that one  :-X

musicllover

musicllover:
First of all, I do not consider myself a "follower" of Joel Finck. I have held my view many years prior to ever hearing of him or getting to know him. You can consider us "like minded believers." He is no longer in Rapid City, SD but in Tabor, SD which is about 50 miles from where I live. He does visit our church on occasions.

Joel is strickly independant and self supporting. As another way to support his ministry, I, like several others, buy his book at his retail price and give them away. He feels that his call is to establish "Grace Chruches" where there are none. Once he has established a church that is self supporting, he will move on to another area. There were no Grace Churches in the Rapid City, SD area when he went there. Should you ever take a trip to Mt Rushmore you will find, along the road between Rapid City and Mt Rushore, a beautiful log cabin type Church that Joel established. He now has a growing ministry in Tabor, SD. He is also in much demand at Bible conferences around the country.

There are many even in the denominational circles that consider themselves "dispensationalists." Many Baptist, Pentecostal and non-denominational church that claim to be dispensationalists. I too consider myself an Acts 9/mid-Acts dispensationalist.

There are three major groups that are referred to as dispensationalists. There are the Act 2,  Acts 9/mid-Acts and Acts 28:28 dispies. Dr. Scofield, in his footnotes in the Scofield Bible are based on the Acts 2 "dispie" position. I do use a Scofield Bible as my main Bible. I do enjoy his footnotes and consider most of them very helpful, however, I do disagree with several of them also.

Having read the link that you posted, I do find one statement that Mr Wilking stated to be in misleading when he said: "And I also hope we continue to hold that justification has always been by grace through faith apart from works."

Salvation has ALWAYS been by grace (the grace of God) through FAITH (in what God required at that point in time of human history). After the fall of Adam and Eve, God gave them a conscience to know right from wrong. They were saved/justified by doing the "right" that thier conscience dictated. Cain and Able were required to make a sacrifice (work) in order to be saved/justified. Well we know that Abel make the required sacrifice. In order to be saved/justified, Noah and to believe God (faith) and build an ark (work). Abram (a Gentile) was saved/justified (called righteous) by just believing God and looking to heaven and observe the stars. Abraham, after being circumcised in the flesh, and offering up his son Isaac, was saved/justified by believing God (faith) and offering his son (work). Doesn't James, in his letter say in chapter 2:21 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar.

Also, after God gave the Law to Moses, the children of Israel had to do the deeds/works of the Law BY FAITH. Deeds/works were the vehicle that demonstrated thier FAITH. The deed/works in themselves had no saving power. Also, At Pentecost in order to be saved; the convert had to repent, and be baptized (work). Their receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost was conditioned upon their doing what was required of them.

Today we are not saved/justified by following our conscience, offering a sacrifice, building a boat, looking to heaven to observe the stars, offering our son upon an altar, or doing the deed/works of the law BY FAITH. All those things belonged to different dispensations. The attributesGod have NEVER changed. He is the same today as he was yesterday and will still be the same in the future. Hope you can now see that God has dealt differently with manking throughout human history (dispensations.)

Salvation/justification today is not by doing any of the above BY FAITH. We are saved/justified by putting our FAITH and trust in the Cross work (death, burial and resurrection) of Christ. [/b]NO WORKS REQUIRED.[/b] We do not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit by believing and being baptized. We are baptized (dry-cleaned) {identified with Christs'  death, burial and resurrection} BY the Holy Spirit the moment we put our faith and trust in the Cross work of Christ (1Cor.12:13) . At Pentecost, Jesus is the baptizer WITH the Holy Spirit.

When did salvation/justification by FAITH ALONE come into effect? AFTER Israel was set aside and the raising up of the Apostle Paul to usher in this dispensation of grace "which was kept secret since the world began."

I was happy to see that Mr. Wilkin has recommended Joel's book. I do have a few extra copies of that book (LORDSHIP SALVATION) that I give away also.

Just want to close by saying that Joel only represents ONLY THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Much and Love The Lord!

[BigD]

musicllover posted:

BigD,
     I can wait, but in the mean time answer me a few quesitons.
    I looked up the dispensational group, to be honests I am concerned.
Do you believe that Jesus is the only son of God?
How many ways is there to get to Heaven?
Do you believe in water batptism?
Do you believe in the Lords supper?
How man dispensations are there?
for just a few.
I know this may not seem like it has much to do with the thread, but for me it does. Its all in the fruits we bare, if a cult was here teaching then we would have a problem, (not saying your from a cult but I want to be sure)
musicllover

Let me try and eliminate your concerns. Dispensationalism is not a denomination or a specific doctrine. It is just the manner in which one studies the Bible. It is man that tries to put us into different "boxes."

To answer your questions:
Q: Do you believe that Jesus is the only son of God?
A: YES!!!

Q: How many ways is there to get to Heaven?
A: Only one. that is through the rapture. Those that were saved outside the dispensation of grace will inherit an earthly kingdom.

I do believe that what you really want to know is:
Q: How many ways is one saved?
A: Again, only one. By faith.

Q: Do you believe in water batptism?
A: I do believe that water baptism is a requirement at one time, but do not believe it has a place in this dispensation of Grace. If you study the different baptisms in the Bible, you will find there are at least 12. Paul says in Eph.4:5 there there is only "one baptism" today. That baptism, I do believe is the one mentioned in 1Cor.12:13 "For by one Spirit (Holy Spirit) are we all baptized into one body (the Body of Christ), whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink one Spirit." Brother, that to me is a "dry-cleaning."

If you wish, I will explain my view on the rite of water baptism later; either in a personal e-mail or on this forum.

Q: Do you believe in the Lords supper?
A: I do participate in the Lord supper as a memorial in accordance with 1Cor.11:23-26.

Q: How man dispensations are there?
A: There is no set number of dispensations that can by found in the Bible. However, the majority view is that there are 7 major dispensations in the Bible.

Paul in Ephesians 2 list three (3) different broad dispensations in just that one chapter.

In verses 11, 12 he speaks of "TIMES PAST." the way things used to be. (When there was a "wall of partition" between the Jew and Gentile. During that period a Gentile that wanted to serve the true and living God had to become a Jew [proselyte], and place themselves under the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses.)

In verse 13 he speaks of "BUT NOW," the way things are today. (The middle wall of partition is broken down and the Jew and Gentile are on equal footing, without distinction and NOT under the Law.

In verse 7, he speaks of "THE AGES TO COME." When God will bring His purposes to fruition.
--------------------------------

Before I was shown how to study the Bible from a dispensational point of view, the Bible was a contradictory book and I could not figure it out. I was taught and believed that I had to live by what the entire Bible required, and that all the Bible was TO ME of follow. Also, that I had to read my Bible every day,
 confess my sins every night, and live by the 10 commandments. This I tried my best to do. I had no problem with reading my Bible everyday, and confessing my sins every night. As hard as I tried, I could not live by what ALL the Bible taught, because it seemed contradictory. You have to know how miserably all of us fail when it comes to living by the 10 commandments. So, as hard as I tried, I just knew that if I died, I would never be good enough to go to heaven.

Because no one was able to answer my questions about the seemingly contradictions in the Bible, I finally just gave up trying, and even had to quit reading the Bible for fear of going crazy. Went the way of the world for many many years; even though I had a longing for truth.

After going unchurched for far too many years, the Lord led me to a little church in South Chicago where in just one sermon all the questions of my youth were answered. (I sat dumbfounded because I never asked a question.) I was shown that all the Bible is FOR ME but not all TO ME. The parts where God was dealing with Israel as His chosen people were for Israel, NOT for members of the Body of Christ. The the instructions in righteousness for members of the Body of Christ were given to Paul. That the doctrine of LAW (to Israel) and the doctrine of GRACE (to the Body of Christ) are two opposing doctrines. If mixed, they only lead to confusion and denominations.

That the book of Acts was not just a book to show the growth of the chruch, but it show the setting aside of Israel and the LAW to the establishing of the Chruch, the Body of Christ, under the dispensation of GRACE. How the book started out as Peter and the 12 being the main characters, and ending up with Paul being the main character.

There are two things that really helped me to understand the Bible, and what is for us members of the Body of Christ today. It is the study of the 7 major dispensations and the difference between PROPHESY, that Jesus came to fulfill while upon the earth, and MYSTERY which was kept secret since the world began, until revealed to Paul.

I will post them later in seperate post.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[shrekandogre]

Big D what is your problem.  You say that are verses aren't applied here and you totally ignore Daniel 9:27a "He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering."  The he is the antichrist the many is Isreal and it will start the Tribulation because it says so right here.  You however have used ONE verse to support your belief there is no bibical proof at all that this happened.  If the tribulation occured then stopped is irrational.  Your missing componenets of the tribulation.  Like the antichrist.  There is no tribulation if there is no antichrust so where is the antichrist in acts.  You cant have two different ones there is only one.  And if your pretrib then you believe that the rapture occured before the tribulation so therefore before Acts which would be a couple days after Jesus ascends into heaven.   Your midtrib and you know it just admit it.

[BigD]

Musicllover:
The following will not fit in one posting so it might take two or three.

Most dispensationals agree upon 7 Dispensations. However, there are no set amount of dispensations that can be arrived at in in Bible. Paul in Ephesians 2, list 3 dispensations. 1. "Times Past" vss 11.13. 2. "But Now" vs 13. 3. "Ages to Come" vs 7.

The following is taken from a chart that was produced by the Berean Bible Society. It is based upon the "Dispensation of Grace" starting with the raising up of the Apostle Paul after the stoning of Stephen. I might add that all dispensationalist will not agree with this chart percisely.

GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES*

*(Each dispensation is defined by four characteristics.)

A. All what God dispenses to, requires of, promises to, and commands men.
B. Man's responsibility to God.
C. Then man's failure.
D. God's judgment for man's failure and disobedience.

1. DISPENSATION OF INNOCENCE:

A. God created man in His image and therefore God dealt with man in his innocence (Gen 1:26,27). Adam and Eve were placed into a perfect environment and were vegetarians (Gen 2:5,8,9).

B. Man was responsible to dress the garden and keep it (Gen 2:15) and to abstain from partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Gen 2:17).

C. Mans failure came when Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate of the forbidden fruit (Gen 3:6).

D. Judgment came upon them as they were expelled from the garden and the perfect environment in which they had lived was cursed. Thus sin, sorrow and death entered the world (Gen 3:16-19, 23,24; Rm 5:12-14).

2. DISPENSATION OF CONSCIENCE:

A. God dispensed conscience to Adam and Eve who, when they disobeyed Him, realized that they were naked, thus manifesting that they had to come to a knowledge of good and evil (Gen 3:7-10).

B. Now that conscience was to govern man, he was responsible "...to know good and evil..." (Gen 3:22).

God commanded Cain and Able to bring a blood sascrifice to be accepted by Him (Gen 4:1-4) to be offered by faith (Heb 11:4).

C. Cain disobeyed God in failing to bring an acceptable sacrifice, and in a jealous rage killed his brother Abel (Gen 4:5-15).

Man became polygamous (Gen 4:19). As men refused to heed their conscience, through them the earth became corrupt and was filled with violence (Gen 6:11-13).

D. God's judgment upon the corrupt and violent world came with the universal flood in the days of Noah (Gen 6:17).

3. DISPENSATION OF HUMAN GOVERNMENT;

A. God revealed that man was now to govern, thus strongly implying the rise of nations and the need for the establishment of human government (Gen 9:5,6).

B. Man was responsibsle to establish laws that were in accordance with God's righteous standards. He was responsible to "be ye fruitful, and multiply: bring forth abundantly in the earth, and myultiply therein" (Gen 11:4).

In defiance of the Holy One of heaven, they erected the so-called Tower of Babel to pay homage to the astrological signs of heaven (Gen 11:3,4; cf Rm 1:22,23).

C. Man failed when they disobeyed God's command to bring forth abundantly and, in uniting together, failed to multiply in the earth (Gen 11:4).

D. Judgment came swiftly as the Lord confounded their language and scattered them abroad upon the face of all the earth (Gen 11:7-9).

4. DISPENSATION OF PROMISE:

A. God dispensed a promise to Abram: "And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:...and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed" (Gen 12:2,3). God also promised that he would "...multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore..." (Gen 22:17), and unto them would be given a land called canaan (Gen 15:18).

B. Although the covenant that God established with Abraham was unconditional, Abraham and his descendants were responsible to trust God to fulfill His promise (Gen 26:1-4; 28:10-15).

C. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob failed to trust God completely. Instead of going to the land of Canaan from Ur of the Chaldees, Abraham came to Haran and dwelt there until his father died (Acts 7:4).

When the famine came upon the land, Isaac reluctantly obeyed God by not going into Egypt, however, he moved to Gerar, as close to Egypt as possible (Gen 26:1-6).

Jacob stole the birthright from his brother Esau (Gen 25:24-34) and later he forsook the land of his forefathers and, under the permissive will of God, moved to Egypt (Gen 41:54-57; cf Gen 46:26).

D. God's judgment came upon Israel when she remained in Egypt for 400 years in severe bondage to the Egyuptians.

5. DISPENSATION OF LAW:

A. God dispensed the Law to Moses. The purpose of the Law was to give Israel the knowledge of sin (Rm 3:20). The Law had the following characteristics.

1)MORAL: The ten commandments were given to govern the moral life of Israel (Ex 20).

2)CIVIL: The judgments were given to govern the individual Israelites in his dealings with the others (Ex 21).

3)CEREMONIAL: Provisions were formulated by which an atonement for sins could be made (Lev 16).

B. Since the Covenant of Law, or Mosaic Covenant, was conditional, those who were placed under it were responsible to keep all the 613 Commandments; thus Israel could only realize the blessings of God when she obeyed His voice (Ex 19:3-7).

C. Although Israel agreed to do "...all that the Lord hath spoken..." (Ex 19:8), the promise to obey soon proved to be a yoke about her neck (Acts 15:10), and Israel's failure under the Dispensation of the Law are too numerous to list; howerer, some of the more notable were:

1)Idol worship (Ex 32:1-6)
2)Unbelief (Num 13:26-33)
3)Murmuring (Num 16:1-8)
4)Fornication (Num 25:1-3)
5)Rejection of Messiah (John 19:15,16)

D. God's judgment came upon Israel many time during the approximately 1500 years that the nation was under the Dispensation of the Law. Among the more devastation calamities that befell here were:

1)The Assyrian Captivities (2Kings 17:4-6; 15:18)
2)The Babylonian Captivities (2Chron 36:11-21)
3)The setting aside of Israel in unbelief after the stoning of Stephen (Acts 7).

(The death of Jesus Christ on the Cross of Calvary did not bring to an end the Dispensation of Promise and the Law, nor did it initiate the Dispensation of Grace. Beginning with the stoning of Stephen and subsequent conversion of Saul of Tarsus, the temporary setting aside of God's earthly people, Israel, gradually took place. At the same time, God gradually began to make known to the new apostle, Paul, "the revelation of the mystery.")

This program of His heavenly people is called "...the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest...made known to all nations for obedience of faith:" (Rm16:25,26).

Concurrently with the steady declension of God's Prophetic Program for His earthly people, with the final, yet temporary seting aside of Israel, was the steady ascension of His Heavenly program, the Mystery. There was, therefore, an overlapping of the two programs and dispensations, a transition period. God's Prophetic program will not resume until the beginning of the tribulation in the Kingdom Age.

To be continued:

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[BigD]

Part 2:
6. DISPENSATION OF GRACE:

A. God dispenses grace to a lost and dying world (Eph 2:5, 3:2).

In the Dispensation of Grace a new creation has been brought into existence (2Cor5:17) which is called "...the Church, which is his Body..." (Eph 2:14-17).

Christ is the Head of the Body (Col 1:18) and holds an exalted position as He carries out His heavenly ministry (Phil 2:9: Eph 1:20-23).

B. Men and women are responsible to receive the written Word of God by faith and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved (Acts 16:31). Salvation is obtained by grace through faith, not of works (Eph 2:8,9).

Members of the Body of Christ are responsible to preach Jesus according to the revelation of the Mystery (Rm 16:25; 1Cor 9:16-18) and "to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery" (Eph 3:9) by doing the work of an evangelist (2Tim 4:5).

C. To a great degree men and women have failed to trust God; to believe His work, and to receive His Son, Jesus Christ as their Savior.

D. The Dispensation of Grace will close when "the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" Rm 11:25). All members of the Church which is His Body, living and dead, will then "...be caught up together..." in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air..." (1Thes 4:17; 2Cor10:11; Eph 3:9; Col 1:27).

Those unsaved living after the close of this Dispensation will go into the seven year tribulation. The unsaved who die during this Dispensation will join with other unsaved dead of all ages at the Great White Throne to be cast into the lake of fire (Rev 10:11-15).

7. THE DAY OF THE LORD;

A. God will dispense both wrath and justice uupon the world which has rejected his Son (Psa 2:1-12).

God's Prophetic Program, which was temporarily interrupted when the Dispensation of Grace began, will resume at the "time of Jacob's trouble" (Jer 30:7). Thus Israel will once again be in view as the world endures seven years of tribulation (Rev 7:1-8).

The great tribulation is a prelude to the coming Milennial Kingdom and has it purpose of overthrowing the Kingdoms of the world and the establishment "of Kingdoms of our Lord, and His Christ" (Rev 11:15), and will close at the Second Coming of Christ (Jer 30:7; Isa 24:1, Mat 24:29,30).

The Second Coming of Christ will initiate His reigh as King for a period of 1,000 years (Rev 20:4,5,7). During His reign the Throne of David will be established (2Sam 7:16; Mat 19:28; Acts 2:30). Justice will fill the earth (Jer 23:5,6); peace will prevail (Isa:9:6,7), and the Abrahamic, Davidic and Palestinian Covenants will be fulfilled.

B. It will be Israel's responsibility to declare that Christ is indeed the Messiah of Israel.

Repentance and baptism will again be preached (Mar 16:15,16; Acts 2:38; cf Rev 9:21) and certain aspects of the Law, such as the Sabbath, must again be observed (Mat 24:20).

C. In the face of almost unbelievable judgment, men will blaspheme God during the tribulation (Rev 16:11,21) and in the Millenial Kingdom will continue to sin against God (Isa 65:20). Although the Lord Jesus Chris rules in righteousness for 1,000 years, there will be those who rebel at the end of the Millenium and challenge His authority (Rev 20:7-9).

D. With the Church, the Body of Christ, seated with Him in the heavenlies, the Kingdom Age will be the consumation of all the previous ages and there will be a number of judgments. The establishment of the " Kingdoms of the Lord, and His Christ" will be accomplished by the judging and chastening of Israel (Mat 25:14-30), and the punishing of the nations (Mat 25:31-46).

At the end of the Millenial Kingdom, all of the unsaved of all ages will stand before the Great White Throne of God and be condemned to spend eternity in the lake of fire (Rev 20:11-15).

The Great Day of the Lord will close when the heavens and the earth are consumed with fire as God prepares to execute His Eternal Purpose (2Pet 3:10: Eph 1:10).

8. DISPENSATION OF THE FULLNESS OF TIME: (There are some that do not consider this a dispensation.)

A. God's ultimate purpose of His creation is that "He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth: even in Him (Eph 1:19).

The renovation of the heavens and the earth will return then to their pristine beauty (Psa 104:5; Isa 65:17; 2Pet 3:11; Rev 21:1).

The Body of Christ will reign with Christ in the heavenlies (Eph 2:6,7), and Israel and those redeemed under God's prophetic Program will reign with Christ from the New Jerusalem on the renovated earth (Rev 21:9-27).

A. All saints will live through eternity in perfect harmony with one another, and since all things have been gathered together in Christ, it seems likely that the heaven and the earth will be open to all the redeemed of all ages. God will be all in all (1Cor 5:9).
B. All will serve Him with gladness (2Cor5:9).
C. There will be no more failures.
D. There will be no more judgment.

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying; neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Rev 21:4).

Hope this is helpfull.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[BigD]

Musiclover:

In his book "Things That Differ" Pastor Stam list 14 basic things between PROPHECY (P), (those things that were spoken "SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN" that Jesus came to fulfill, Romans 15:8), and THE MYSTERY (M). (which was "KEPT SECRET SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN," and revealed to the Apostle Paul.)

1. (P) Concerns a kingdom; a political organization (Dan. 2:44, Matt. 6:10).

(M) Concerns a body; a living organism (I Cor. 12:12,27, Eph. 4:12-16).

2. (P) The kingdom to be established on earth (Jer. 23:5, Matt. 6:10).

(M) The body given a position in heaven (Eph. 1:3, 2:5-6, Col 3:1-3).

3. (P) Christ to be its King (Jer. 23:5, Isa.9:6,7).

(M) Christ its living Head (Eph. 1:19-23,Col. 1:18).

4. (P) The kingdom prophesied "since the world began" (Luke 1:68-70, Acts3:21).

(M) The body chosen in Christ before the world began, but "kept secret sincethe world began" (Rom. 16:25, Eph.
1:4-11, 3:5-9).

5. (P) Israel to be given supremacy over the nations (Isa. 60:10-12, 61:6).

(M) Jew and Gentile placed on the same level before God (Rom. 10:12, 11:32,Eph. 2:16,17).

6. (P) The Gentiles to be blessed through Israel’s instrumentality (Gen.22:17,18, Zech. 8:13).

(M) The Gentiles blessed through Israel’s obstinacy (Acts 13:44-46,Rom. 11:28-32).

7. (P) The Gentiles to be blessed through Israel’s rise (Isa. 60:1-3, Zech. 8:22,23).

(M) The Gentiles blessed throughI srael’s fall (Acts 28:27,28, Rom.11:11, 12, 15).

8. (P) Prophecy mainly concerns nations as such (Isa. 2:4, Ezek. 37:21, 22).

(M) The mystery concerns individuals (Rom. 10:12, 13, II Cor. 5:14-17).

9. (P) Prophecy concerns blessings, both material and spiritual, on earth (Isa.2:3, 4, 11:1-9, etc.).

(M)The mystery concerns "all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies" (Eph.1:3, Col. 3:1-3).

10. (P) Prophecy concerns Christ’s coming to the earth (Isa. 59:20, Zech. 14:4).

(M)The mystery explains Christ’s present absence from the earth (Eph. 1:20-23, Col. 3:1-3).

11. (P) In prophecy salvation by grace through faith alone is not contemplated.

(M) Salvation by faith alone lies at the very heart of the mystery (Rom. 3:21-26, 4:5, Eph.2:8,9).

12, (P)The proclamation of the prophetic program committed particularly to the twelve (Matt. 10:5-7, Acts 1:6-8, 3:19-26).

(M) The proclamation of the mystery committed particularly to Paul (Eph.3:1-3, 8-9, Col. 1:24-27).

13 (P) The prophetic program revealed through many of God’s servants (Luke 1:70, II Pet. 1:21).

(M) The mystery revealed through one man; Paul (Gal. 1:1, 11, 12, 2:2, 7, 9,Eph. 3:2,3).

14. (P) Old testament writers frequently did not understand the prophecies made known through them (Dan. 12:8-10, IPeter 1:10-12).

(M) Paul both understood and longed that others might understand the mystery revealed through him. (Eph.1:15-23, 3:14-21, Col. 1:9 -10, 2:1-3).

Hope this is helpful.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lordd!

[nChrist]

Brothers and Sisters,

It is more than apparent that all in this discussion agree on the single MOST IMPORTANT fact of this life:

1 - Jesus Christ was Almighty God made manifest in the flesh.

2 - Jesus Christ died on the CROSS for our sins.

3 - Jesus Christ arose from the dead on the third day and is our Living Lord and Saviour forever.

4 - Jesus Christ was and is the only PERFECT SACRIFICE, and HIS sacrifice is a free GIFT to all who believe, have faith in who HE was and IS, and ask HIM to come into their hearts as LORD over their lives.

The point I would like to make is all involved in this discussion appear to be born again Children of God. We will spend eternity together with JESUS, regardless of our agreement or disagreement on non-Salvation issues.

I think it is good when we can discuss our differences in Christian love when we are discussing things with another brother or sister in Christ. We can all learn something when Christian love is the highest priority. If the discussion is vain and leads to division, Christians should not be involved. I'm obviously not talking about heresy, blasphemy, and false teaching that is destructive to THE BODY OF CHRIST.

We do manage to have many pleasant discussions here about differences that do not involve our own vanity. There is no irony that most vain discussions are a waste of time and the various points go in one ear and out the other. The opposite is mainly true when we manage to put vanity away and have discussions in Christian love.

2 Timothy 2:14  Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
2 Timothy 2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Please pay particular attention to 2 Timothy 2:14. This is the reason why many Christians withdraw or refuse to have debates about non-Salvation issues. If Christian love is the highest priority in our discussions about differences, we can avoid the striving (contention - warring) about words to no profit and subverting of the hearers. If we can't, we should heed the words of 2 Timothy 2:14 and other portions of Scripture that direct Christian conduct.

This is not a forum rule for Christians Unite. However, it is a rule in the hearts of many Christians, and it explains why many people don't participate in some discussions. Our users on Christians Unite are free to argue and debate all they wish as long as they obey the forum rules. I simply wanted to point out why many Christians don't participate in such arguments and debates. Many Christians rightly feel that if the discussion doesn't honor and profit GOD, they made a mistake by becoming involved. I hope this makes some sense. This in NO way hints that the defense of the Gospel of God's Grace is wrong.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 111:2  The works of the LORD are great, sought out of all them that have pleasure therein.

[shrekandogre]

We werent arguing about any of those topics what are you talking about???  That was totally random.  Big D you never responded to my post so i can only believe that you have no argument and that i am right.  HAHA. VICTORY.

[BigD]

The reason that I did not respond to your post yesterday because after responding to Musicllover, it was time to take a break and watch football.  What I posted yesterday was prior to Sunday School and Church and prior to football after Chruch.

sherk posted:

We werent arguing about any of those topics what are you talking about???  That was totally random.  Big D you never responded to my post so i can only believe that you have no argument and that i am right.  HAHA. VICTORY.

What I posted previously was not for your benefit; but for Mulicllover's, in response to his questions, and desire to know more about dispensationalism.

Dainel 9 does not specificly say that a peace treaty must be signed PRIOR to the beginning of the Tribulation. It does state that one will be signed and broken in the middle.

I do believe that there will be a peace treaty signed very shortly after the Tribulation is resumed.

If you will SHOW ME from Scripture that Jeol, in 2:28-32 is not speaking of the Tribulation, and/or Peter in Acts 2:15-20 doesn't know where he is in the prophetic time clock, THEN I WILL ADMIT THAT YOU HAVE VICTORY. HAHA

I have requested the above from other, and they still have not shown me what I requested. Even PROMISED to change my views if they did. So, if you wish for me to change my views - SHOW ME

The reasons that I participate in these forum discussions are twofold. It is to learn, to have my knowledge of the Bible broadened, and to express my views as to what I believe the Bible teaches on various subjects.

As I have stated earlier, I am still in the learning mode.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[musicllover]

The reason that I did not respond to your post yesterday because after responding to Musicllover, it was time to take a break and watch football.  What I posted yesterday was prior to Sunday School and Church and prior to football after Chruch.

sherk posted:

We werent arguing about any of those topics what are you talking about???  That was totally random.  Big D you never responded to my post so i can only believe that you have no argument and that i am right.  HAHA. VICTORY.

What I posted previously was not for your benefit; but for Mulicllover's, in response to his questions, and desire to know more about dispensationalism.

Dainel 9 does not specificly say that a peace treaty must be signed PRIOR to the beginning of the Tribulation. It does state that one will be signed and broken in the middle.

I do believe that there will be a peace treaty signed very shortly after the Tribulation is resumed.

If you will SHOW ME from Scripture that Jeol, in 2:28-32 is not speaking of the Tribulation, and/or Peter in Acts 2:15-20 doesn't know where he is in the prophetic time clock, THEN I WILL ADMIT THAT YOU HAVE VICTORY. HAHA

I have requested the above from other, and they still have not shown me what I requested. Even PROMISED to change my views if they did. So, if you wish for me to change my views - SHOW ME

The reasons that I participate in these forum discussions are twofold. It is to learn, to have my knowledge of the Bible broadened, and to express my views as to what I believe the Bible teaches on various subjects.

As I have stated earlier, I am still in the learning mode.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

BigD,
        Sorry to make you work so hard, I thought a simple yes or know might have worked, I printed off your responses and will try to get them read sometime this week. I have classes to attend and I also am in the process of tyring to hook up to an internet business.
     From what I have been able to find on the Act passage, with all the cross referencing Joel is referring the the second coming of Chris, Peter is using that as an example of what those days will be like. Telling on looker this is not drunkeness, this is what the second coming of Christ will be like, Peter is not referring to the rapture, but referring to the after tribulation party... . I know you want the black and white of it all. And I will try one of these days, but just to be safe, don't hold your breath waiting on me. Unless of coarse you have GOOOOOOOD lungs. There are far superior teachers on board.
    I do want to commend you on your Godly spirit in learning, so so much better than the nasty stuff that can come up with differences. Lastly, still the rapture before, during or end has nothing to do with ones salvation just one location at some point in the future  . Be at peace.
blessings,
musicllover

[BigD]

musicllover posted:

BigD,
        Sorry to make you work so hard, I thought a simple yes or know might have worked, I printed off your responses and will try to get them read sometime this week. I have classes to attend and I also am in the process of tyring to hook up to an internet business.
     From what I have been able to find on the Act passage, with all the cross referencing Joel is referring the the second coming of Chris, Peter is using that as an example of what those days will be like. Telling on looker this is not drunkeness, this is what the second coming of Christ will be like, Peter is not referring to the rapture, but referring to the after tribulation party... :P. I know you want the black and white of it all. And I will try one of these days, but just to be safe, don't hold your breath waiting on me. Unless of coarse you have GOOOOOOOD lungs. There are far superior teachers on board.
    I do want to commend you on your Godly spirit in learning, so so much better than the nasty stuff that can come up with differences. Lastly, still the rapture before, during or end has nothing to do with ones salvation just one location at some point in the future  ;D. Be at peace.
blessings,
musicllover

Don't worry about working to too hard. Happy you gave me the opportunity to post what I did. Hoping others will read it and get a better understanding of us dispies.

With the manifestations of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, Peter is telling them "THIS IS THAT WHICH WAS SPOKEN OF BY THE PROPHET JOEL." Peter NEVER said or implied that these are examples of Christ's 2nd coming.

Peter's understanding of the OT prophetic Scriptures was opened to him by Jesus, prior to his returning to heaven (Luke 24:45). Also, the diciples, including Peter, at Pentecost, were speaking as "the Spirit gave them utterance" (Acts 2:4).

As I have posted earlier, two thing must happen prior to the return of Christ. Jesus must suffer many thing and be rejected by the generation he came to (Luke 17:24, 25) and Israel had to go through the Tribulation. (There are many OT references to that.)

Being Peter understood the OT Scriptures, and the facts that Jesus had already suffered many thing by His people, and the fact the the Tribulation was already in progress, Peter could NOW offer the kingdom to Israel as he did in Acts 3:19-21.

Because Peter understood the OT prophetic scriptures, he knew that the Tribulation would have to run its course before Jesus could return and restore all things mentioned in vs 21. Had Israel repented, as Peter told them in vs 19, that is exactly what would have happened. There would have been no need for this dispensation of grace. The prophetic time clock would have continued to go on.

It is because Israel, as a nation, rejected their King and His Kingdom that God set the nation of Israel aside, and then God stopped the prophetic timeclock, raised up Paul/Saul to usher in this dispensation of Grace, which "was kept secret since the world began." This period in which we live CANNOT be found in prophesy.

The "rapture" just like the "dispensation of grace" cannot be found in prophesy. They are both part of the MYSTERY that was revealed to Paul.

All the OT promises to the Jewish fathers was a King and Kingdom to be and everlasting kingdom upon this earth. Nowhere in Paul's epistles do we find that members of the Body of Christ, the Chruch for this age, are promised any part in the kingdom that was promised to Israel. All the promises to members of the Body of Christ are heavenly.

Our salvation is based upon our right realationship with God/Jesus. Should some of our doctrine be flawed, it will have no bearing on our salvation, however, it could effect our Christian walk which could possibly lead to loss of rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

If the Bible is read and studied literally and in context, this what I believe you will learn.

I understand your need for study and ability to support yourself, so take your time. I am enjoying our dialogure and hope it will continue.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!