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Im interested in seeing what the majority on this forum believe what will happen.

I use to be a mid-tribber, through what I have learned. I now believe that the Rapture will come, before Tribulation.

So BRNZ before you say anything.......... Shhhhhhhhh! ;D ;)

   "And the truth shall set you free!"   8)

                                                          Paul2

   "And the truth shall set you free!"   8)

                                                          Paul2

I asked you to be nice. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/DreamWeaver000/dom-ani.gif)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/DreamWeaver000/mouse2.gif)  

Brothers and Sisters,

I've always held the opinion that the Rapture will occur before the Tribulation period. However, I would quickly note that many sweet brothers and sisters in Christ have other views. This is a topic worthy of discussion, but not hatred or division.

I have many reasons for my views, but the biggest ones involve the SEALING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT of the hearts of those who love JESUS. In brief, the Bible clearly states that the Holy Spirit (RESTRAINER) will be removed from the earth. No power in Heaven or earth can break the SEAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. Many of us involved in this study already have many pages of posts that describe in detail the reasons for our views. If another brother or sister in Christ disagrees, we still love them the same.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1Corinthians 1:18  For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

The rapture is several years in the future yet. We need to prepare for what is coming. The next big things on God's agenda r the raising up of Israel and the bringing down of America. This country has been blessed beyond any other and this has become a wicked nation. When the luke warm church sits by and lets over 1 million of its unborn be murdered each year this has become a wicked nation. In the near future God is going to give Israel knowledge and understanding that will make them the center of the world, give them the wealth of the world and take away the wealth of their enemies. It will cause the Jews of the world to go back to Israel. It will cause Russia to one day mass a huge muslem army and come against Israel. The so called 7 year trib. will soon start after this. It will take care of the muslem problem and clear the site where the temple is to be built. It will take time to rebuild Jerusalem and build the temple. u can read about it in ezekiel 38 & 39 it starts out (A country that was scattered by the sword that has been brought back and is at peace) Israel has not even been brought back yet. There is much to happen before the rapture. God is going to allow nuclear bombs to be set off in this country that will bring down our economy. When people r in need they will flock to the church. We need to prepare to take care of our families because there will be few jobs and the church needs to prepare to help people and win souls for christ. I know this is not the popular belief but it is the truth. I will not argue with anyone over this i am just warning u of what is coming. PREPARE  

blackeyepeas:
You posted:
"I have many reasons for my views, but the biggest ones involve the SEALING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT of the hearts of those who love JESUS. In brief, the Bible clearly states that the Holy Spirit (RESTRAINER) will be removed from the earth. No power in Heaven or earth can break the SEAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. Many of us involved in this study already have many pages of posts that describe in detail the reasons for our views. If another brother or sister in Christ disagrees, we still love them the same."



BigD responds:
IMHO it is not the Holy Spirit that is the (RESTRAINER). It will still be on the earth after the rapture.

My views are in line with Pastor C.R.Stam, founder and past president fo the Berean Bible Society. In his commentary on "THESSALONIANS" he stated the following:

HOW IS THE MANIFESTATION OF ANTICHRIST BEING RESTRAINED?

The Thessalonian believers also understood, says Paul, what the restraining force was that hindered Antichrist from being revealed until "his time" (Ver. 6).

"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now letteth will let until he be taken out of the way" (Ver. 7).

The "mystery of iniquity” stands over against the "mystery of godliness”,,, referred to in I Tim. 3:16.

How did we believers come to know and love the Lord Jesus Christ? This was accomplished, not in some dramatic, outward way, but by the quiet working of the Holy Spirit, as we received the Word as the truth of God.

But most people are not aware that Satan works in the same way, only from sinister motives. He is called in Eph. 2:2, "the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience."

And as "the mystery of godliness" quietly does its work in the saints, so "the mystery of iniquity [or lawlessness] doth already work" in the children of disobedience, behind the scenes, but very effectively, for the Prince of Lawlessness is the driving force that carries it forward.

Satan has not yet been revealed in Antichrist, however. For the present he is permitted to scheme, and influence men behind the scenes, but is restrained from promoting lawlessness unchecked.

What is it that restrains the Antichrist from being revealed and hinders this wicked world from "going the limit" in sin?

Some say it is Satan, who is holding on to his place in the heavenlies "until he be taken out of the way" (Rev. 12:9), but it is hard to imagine Satan, even in and by his personal absence from this earth, restraining evil.

Others believe that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit. This solution would be acceptable were it not for the fact that the Holy Spirit will continue working on earth during the Tribulation, helping the believing remnant to remain faithful to the end.

The author holds that it is the Spirit in the Church, the Body of Christ that is referred to, or we might say, the influence of the Spirit through the Church for, remember, it is not the police forces of this world, or its armies, that restrain the evil. It is the true Church, indwelt by the Holy Spirit. When the Church is "taken out of the way," the Spirit's ministry through its members will no longer function on earth to restrain lawlessness or the manifestation of Antichrist. This we believe is the only consistent solution to the identity of the Restrainer and is another strong proof that the rapture of the members of Christ's Body will precede the manifestation of Antichrist, first as the great leader and then as the great blasphemer.

Because we may not agree on this issue; it does not mean that I do not love you. We just have a different point of view in this area of the Bible.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

BigD,

Nice try again, but my answer to you remains the same, "No thanks."  You need to find someone who likes to argue for vanity purposes and/or semantics. I don't like either, so count me out. If someone comes along who fills your needs, I'm sure they will let you know. In fact, we might try to get the two of you together in a thread, sell tickets, and have some entertainment.   :D

In case you are wondering, my last post to you still stands, word for word.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 102:12  But thou, O LORD, shalt endure for ever; and thy remembrance unto all generations.

Haha i want to point out blackeyepeas that he was the first to talk.

So BigD what about Romans 5:9 and 1 Thessalonians  1:9-10; 5:9

It promises us(Christians) will be saved from the coming wrath and God will not let us endure it.   Also I questioned the thing about the Holy Spirt being down here as well so he cant be the Restrainer as well a while back but one big thing that contradicts with this though is the Holy Spirit is omnipresent so therefore doesnt that mean he can be holding back the antichrist and be in believers?    Also the imminence of the Lord's return contradicts that point because if it was post we know that we wait after 7 years then he come or we know that if its in the middle then we know that he will be coming pretty soon after the treaty.  And just because there are Christians during the Tribulation doesnt mean that the God didnt take the believers up and then come back down.  Remeber time is realtive to God that means that even though it seems to fast a time for you and me its not for God.  I hope you understand my viewpoint of this whole thing I say it in a nice way.

 Good posts my friend.
Can I point out something you may not have considered?

 The saved believers do get raptured pre-trib. However, God does not send us back down during the tribulation, at least not until Jesus returns at the end.
The "Christians" that are on earth during the tribulation are people who were not saved until after the rapture.

Take care...

Bronzesnake

bep:
Sorry to see that you are so closed minded.

In Acts 17:17 "Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him."

It appears to me that you would have no part with the disputing that went on in that verse. However, according to my Vines concise dictionary of the Bible, the word "disputing" is from the Greek word "dialegomai" (Strongs 1256) meaing "to say thoroughly, i.e discuss: dispute, preach, reason, speak. In Vines concise dictionary is says the usage in the above verse means "reasoned."

It has been my experience with people with closed minds is that they do not desire to "reason" the Scriptures.

It also appears to me that you are saying: "Its my way or the highway."

I am still open to discussion. If you want to call that "argue" - well so be it.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

shrekandogre - Bronzesnake:
THANK YOU for your response. This is a good subject for discussion ("arguement" as per bep).

Maybe I didn't make myself clear previously. Therefore, I will try to show the sequence of events that will take place from the time of Pentecost. If you feel I am in error, I would appreciate correction from the Scriptures.

As I said in my previous posting, the Tribulation began at Pentecost. The signs that Joel 2:28-32 were beginning to appear. Peter says so in Acts 2:15-20. I believe that with all my heart.

We know from the Old Testament Scriptures that two things must happen before the kingdom can be established upon the earth. Israel must go through the Tribulation and the Messiah must suffer.

Even though Jesus came to earth to establish His kingdom, He never once offered the kingdom to Israel. Yes they preached "the gospel of the kingdom," because, according to OT prophesy it was the proper time. The King had been born in Bethleham, and was present with them.

In Luke 17:24, 25, Jesus says (speaking of Himself): "For as the lightning that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man BE IN HIS DAY. (That will be at his 2nd coming.) BUT FIRST must he suffer many things, and be rejected OF THIS GENERATION (the generation He was speaking to)."

Therefore, He did not offer the kingdom AT THAT TIME. He (Jesus) had not yet suffered, and the Tribulation had not yet happened.

Peter, at Pentecost, is telling his listeners that the Tribulation has started. Being he has full understanding of the OT Scriptures, he knew and see the signs beginning. He is also aware that Israel must go through the Tribulation.

Peter can NOW justifiably offer the kingdom to Isreal. The Messiah did suffer and the Tribulation was in progress. Therefore, Peter could offer the return of Christ, and the establishment of the kingdom, in Acts 3:19-21 "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing (kingdom) shall come from the presence of the Lord: AND HE SHALL SEND JESUS CHRIST, WHICH WAS PREACHE UNTO YOU: Whom the heaven must receive UNTIL THE TIMES OF RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS, WHICH GOD HATH SPOKEN BY THE MOUTH OF HIS HOLY PROPHETS SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN."

Hey, we are talking about the King and His Kingdom coming to a restored earth.

Did Israel, as a nation, repent? NO!!! Therefore Jesus could not return to establish His Kingdom upon the earth AT THIS TIME.

Lets take a look at Israel rejection of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (the Trinity).

We know that Israel, rejected God the FAther when they, as a nation, refused to be baptized of John the Baptist, and ALLOWED him to be killed (be-headed). Also, they went about trying to establish their own righteousness (Romans 10:3). Then they rejected God the Son when they DEMANDED that He be curcified. They rejected God the Holy Spirit when they (the leaders) MURDERED Stephen who was filled with the Spirit in Acts 7. (Notice the progression of their implication.)

How could the nation of Israel be the blessing to the nations, as promised to Abram in Gen.12:1-3, when the nations with it leaders, as a whole, rejected the Trinity? Surely, the 12 could not do it alone through the "so called" great commission.

It appears the "kingdom program", through Israel, was bogued down.

Therefore, God interrupted the kingdom program, including the Tribulation that had begun, and set the nation of Israel aside, AFTER the stoning of Stephen.

THEN God raised up Saul/Paul, in Acts 9, to usher in "the dispensation of grace" in which we now live.

With the setting aside of Israel, God is no longer dealing with the nation of Israel as his favorite people. He is NOW dealing with ALL MANKIND on equal footing and without distinction. He (God) did this by MAKING the "THE ONE NEW MAN" of Eph. 2:15. It is known today as THE BODY OF CHRIST. Today we are to be preaching "the gospel of the grace of God" and NOT "the gospel of the kingdom." That program was interrupted and will resume again AFTER the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ.

This "dispensation of grace" will end with the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ. Its home is in heaven "to ever be with the Lord" (1Thess.4:17). It WILL NOT go through the Tribulation.

After the rapture there will be no members left of "the Body of Christ." The tribulation that was interrupted with the setting aside of Israel will again resume. However, there will be the 144,000 sealed Israelites, mentioned in Reveation 7:4-9 that will again preach "the gospel of the kingdom." They will have the same "Pentecostal" powers that were displayed at Pentecost. Countless numbers will be saved through their ministry. The nations will be blessed through the Jews, as promised to Abram. At the end of the Tribulation Jesus will return to establish His Kingdom, and the nations will still be blessed through the Jews, as a nation, during the milleniumn.

Nowhere in Paul's Epistles do I find that the Chruch, the Body of Christ will be part of that kingdom. Our citizenship is in heaven (Philippians 3:20), (That is a different subject that can be discussed ["argued" - as per dep] later.)

Israel, as a nation, will repent and recognize Jesus as their Messiah. That is still future and will not happen during this dispensation of grace.

This post got a little longer then I intended, but I feel it was necessary for you to understand my position.

This posting was written in love and hope it will be responded to in the same manner.

By the way, bronzesnake, today is that "YOUNG WHIPPER SNAPPER'S" 73rd birthday. (Really, I feel to young to be this old.)

First Bronzesnake what I was trying to say i know it may have been confusing but my point was that the Holy Spirit will go up with the believers and then it will be the Holy Spirit that comes back down not the believers.(yet)

Big D...you addressed none of my points like what about the wrath of God aka tribuliation and us be excempted and what about the imminence of the Lord's Return, mid-trib isnt possible because you dont have this imminence because you know when he's comes becuase the Tribulation will begin, and what about the Church not being mentioned in the Tribulation at all in Rev. 4-19.  As well as Rev 3:10.  Joel 2:29-30 are not signs of the tribulation its talking about us recieving the Holy Spirit.  How do you know for sure that the "in the last days"  that Peter talks about isnt the last days of Jesus on this Earth.  Along with and its not Isreal that must go through it its every nonbeliever after the Rapture occurs.

shrekandogre
THANK YOU for your reply.
You posted:
"Big D...you addressed none of my points like what about the wrath of God aka tribuliation and us be excempted and what about the imminence of the Lord's Return, mid-trib isnt possible because you dont have this imminence because you know when he's comes becuase the Tribulation will begin, and what about the Church not being mentioned in the Tribulation at all in Rev. 4-19.  As well as Rev 3:10.  Joel 2:29-30 are not signs of the tribulation its talking about us recieving the Holy Spirit.  How do you know for sure that the "in the last days"  that Peter talks about isnt the last days of Jesus on this Earth.  Along with and its not Isreal that must go through it its every nonbeliever after the Rapture occurs."

BigD responds:
Well, I do agree with you that the Chruch, the Body of Christ will not go through the Tribulation, as per the references you posted.

When the Tribulation started in Acts the Chruch, the Body of Christ was not yet formed and was still future revelation to the Apostel Paul.

Peter at Pentecost quoted ALL of Joel 2:28-32. You only want to read verses 29, 30.

I know that the "last days" that Peter is talking about is the Tribulation because Peter is quoting vs 31, of Joel 2, which Joel identifies as "that great and terrible day of the Lord," the Tribulation.

Being the Church, the Body of Christ, wasn't formed until Israel was set aside, and the Tribulation interrupted, it did not go through any part of the Tribulation that started in Acts 2:15-20.

This dispensation of grace that was ushered in with the raising up of the Apostle Paul cannot be found in prophesy. It WAS KEPT SECRET SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN."

This present dispensation of grace will end with the rapture of the Church. It WILL NOT to through the Tribulation. I DO NOT believe in a mid-trib rapture.

Jesus will not return until the end of the Tribulation and when He does return, it will be as a Righteous Judge. Yes, all unbelievers that are not raptured will go through the Tribulation period.

Just want to summerize that I am saying that the Chruch, the Body of Christ, did not go through any part of the Tribulation that started in Acts 2:15-20 and interrupted with the setting aside of Israell. (It was still future revelation.) After the Chruch, the Body of Christ, is raptured, it will not go through any part of the Tribulation when it resumes AFTER the rapture. Therefore I/we can say the Chruch, the Body of Christ will not go through the Tribulation.

Hope this gives you a cleared picture of what I believe.

If you believe what I have posted is in error, I would GREATLY APPRECIATE you showing me my  error. I am still in the learning mode.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Happy Birthday you young whipper snapper!!

By the way, I only referred to you as that because you referred to yourself that way.
Remember this...

BigD quote...

 My friend. You do understand that there are only seven years left right? and that the bible clearly states that once antichrist signs the "seven year" peace pact, the final seven years begins...this is the seven years of tribulation. If I believe your theory, then I have to subtract the time from  the pentacost until sometime after the stoning of Stephen from the seven years which are clearly numbered in Revelation, which commences at the time that satan signs the "seven year" peace deal - which has yet to happen.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

 So when did the antichrist sign this seven year peace deal my friend? This must happen before the final seven years can begin.

 The 70th week of Daniel is a 7-year period divided into 3 parts.

  The first 3 1/2 years

  The Middle  of the 70th week

  The last 3 1/2 years

 The entire seven year period is accounted for down to the last day in Revelation my friend.

 First 3 1/2 years
 The first half of Tribulation is covered in Revelation 6,7,8,9.
The Seal and the Trumpet judgements are detailed. At the conclusion of the the sixth Trumpet at least 47% of the earth's population has died. This period is 1260 days long.

Last 3 1/2 years
 The second half of Tribulation is covered in Revelation 14,15,16,17,18,19. The Bowl judgements cover the whole earth as compared to portions of the earth in the Trumpet judgements. The earth is united under the direction of the antichrist to the final battle at Armageddon in Israel. This ends with the return of Jesus. This period is 1260 days long.

 Should we add your "missing" time to this seven years?


The completion of God’s revelation to Daniel requires several events that need to be completed Before the first 3 1/2 years

1. The Jewish nation has to be in existence.

2. Islamic power needs to be defeated for the Jewish Temple  to be built on Mt. Moriah.

3. Israel must have the desire to reconstruct the Temple in the face of world opposition.

 These conditions did not exist at the time when you believe the tribulation began my friend - as a matter of fact, the temple has not been rebuilt yet as far as I know. The other two conditions have been fulfilled, so we know we are close to the start of the seven year period. Once the antichrist signs the peace deal, the temple can begin to be rebuilt, and the seven year clock begins to wind down.

 You ask me to "show" you, and I have, but have you seen?

 Bronzesnake

 
 

2 thumps on the back and two thumbs up on your post Bronze. Keep up the great work. God Bless  ;D

Joshua

 Thanks my friend...you do some very good work also.  :D

Bronzesnake

Only sharing what the Lord has revealed to me. I'm just a vessal for His use. Again TY for the previous post. If the Lord wills i'll continue. God Bless

Joshua

Thank you bronzesnake you just saved me about 5 minutes worth of typing.  I just want to state again that the record of what will occur concerning the trib is in revelation.  So BigD why would something that started in acts be repeated in Revelation?  And if you believe that we are raptured during a pause in the trib that still midtrib in a way.  your in the middle of the trib. when it happens.

Oh yea, i forgot to mention. BigD, your statement that the 70th week began at the stoning and death of Stephen has got me alert now. I went and did some research on that statement, and I found no indication that there was anything prophetic talking about the 70th week in Acts. I simply do not see where you pulled this from. yes, stephen was the first martyr, but what connection does he have with the 70th week. I find no other Scriptures to support this, you think you could clarify it with SCRIPTURE? Oh yea, I spoke to my pastor, and another friend of mine, and they both are as confused as I am about this claim, care to clarify. God Bless

Joshua

Bronze,
         Good post, I agree with everything you said, and I suppose I'd probably agree with things you didn't say too. Cause that is what being like minded is all about....thank you I couldn't have said it better myself.
Jesus is Lord over all,
musicllover

PS..... well duh, the reason I posted to begin with is because I wanted you to know I've made a copy of your post for future reference.

 God said it first, we simply listen to what He says my friend.

 Bronzesnake

bronze:

THANKS for the birthday greeting. It brought a big smile to my face because I do I remember well where the "young whipper snapper" phrase came from. It goes back to "Quasar."

First of all, I want to clarify your last remark. You said: "You ask me to "show" you, and I have, but have you seen?" Well you have no shown me what I requested. Back on the "70 WEEK PROPHESY" thread, reply #6 I said: "I will be more then happy to change my views if you can SHOW ME from Scripture that Joel in chapter 2:28-32 is not speaking of the Tribulation and that Peter in Acts 2:15-20 is WRONG in what he said." This you have not done. So, I have not seen a response to what I requested.

It has been about two years that we did a verse by verse study of The Book of the Revelation which also went back to the OT prophets. So I whould have to go back and do some re-studying of the OT prophets and the Tribulation details in prophesy. I did attempt to do that yesterday but keep getting interrupted. Primarly a lot of phone calls by dear friends and family members stopping by. However, details within the Tribulation it self are not what we are really presently discussing. It's did it start at Pentecost?

First of all, I did give Scriptural support for my position, so there is no need to go through that again. In Luke chapter 13 we have "the parable of the barren fig tree." (The nation of Israel is often referred to as a fig tree in the Bible.) (The following is my interpretation of the parable. If you do not agree with it, I would like to know your interpretation of it.

6 He (Jesus) spake also this parable; A certain man (God) had a fig tree (Isreael) planted in his vineyard (earth); and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

7 Then said he (God) unto the dresser (Jesus) of his vineyard, Behold, these three years (the duration of Christ's ministry) I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

8 And he (Jesus) answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also (the time from Pentecost till the stoning of Stephen), till I shall dig about it, and dung it:(The Holy Spirit manifications of Pentecost.)

9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down. (Israel was "cut down" [set aside] after the stoning of Stephen which occured approximately one year from Pentecost.

I have read, and been told, that the unique thing about a fig tree is that it can be cut down and the roots lay dormant for many years. If they are watered, they will again grow. I don't know if this is true or not.

At the time the Tribulation started in Acts 2, Israel was a nation and the temple was still standing, so there was no need for your above conditions to be met then. So, there were no physical requirements to be met when the Tribulation did start. For the Tribulation to again resume, those conditions will be met. There are several senerios as to how this will happen and I don't know which one could be right. God has it all planned out; so I am not going to worry about it. I won't be here anyway.

I find no support in Scripture that says that a 7 year peace treaty must be signed before the Tribulation can begins. However, you did bring up a good point which I have never  really considered. But, you probably haven't ever considered my viewpoint either. I am going to look into your view more.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

shrekandogre posted:
"So BigD why would something that started in acts be repeated in Revelation?  And if you believe that we are raptured during a pause in the trib that still midtrib in a way.  your in the middle of the trib. when it happens."

BigD responds:
When the Tribulation is resumed, after the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ, it will not be a repeat but a resumption of what was started.

Just as the "dispensation of grace" is a "(parenthetical)" period within the dispensation of the Law, the "dispensation of grace" is also a "(parentehetical)" period within the Tribulation.
-------------------------------

Jemidon2004 posted:
"Oh yea, i forgot to mention. BigD, your statement that the 70th week began at the stoning and death of Stephen has got me alert now. I went and did some research on that statement, and I found no indication that there was anything prophetic talking about the 70th week in Acts."

BigD responds:
Don't believe I ever said or implied what you have written. Now that you are alert, I highly suggest that you go back and read over what I have posted.

THANKS for the reply though.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

The treaty can be found in Daniel 9:27 thats all i can say before I jet.

Sorry bigD, i mis read. I thought you were saying that it started with the stoning of stephen. My apologies...however, i still do not see what Stephen's death has to do with it starting or stopping from that matter. God just doesn't start a week, then cut it through mid way...and I have read what you've written, don't get me wrong, however, i mis-read that...i re-read what you wrote on here last night amongst other things, oh yea. I also have a Scofield Bible as well as access to numerous resources, and all the resources that i've stumbled upon agree with what bronzesnake and I have said...just a thought since you said that your view lines up with that of the head of the berean society :P. Just thought i'd shoot that across your bow. God Bless

Joshua

Joshua

Jemidon2004
THANKS for your response.

It was with the stoning of Stephen that Israel, as a nation, rejected the Third Person of the Trinity. That is when God set the nation of Israel aside and raised up Saul/Paul to usher in the dispensation of grace.

Yes, I do know that a peace tready between Israel and the anti-christ will be signed, but I cannot find any scriptural support the it must happen prior to the Tribulation starting.

As I have requested from bronze, if you can show me that Joel in Joel 2:28-32 was not talking about the Tribulation, and Peter was in error in Acts 2:15-20, THEN I will change my view. Hope that isn't too much to ask.

The one thing that I do not do is put stock in the "majority viewpoints". The majority view many years ago was that the world was flat. It was believed by the majority of the most prominant "Christian" church at that time. We all know better NOW.

Also, I grew up in a community of a little over 2,000 citizens. It was a Dutch community and there were 7 Reformed (Calvinist) churches in that town - no others. I was reared and educated in their "Christian School". I believed and wanted to believe everything that I was taugh.

My family background was very strong Calvinistic. In fact, my dad had two first cousins that were professors at Calvin College.

Prior to 1948 there was no nation of Israel, and the teaching of the Reformed Churches, and other protestant chruches, was that the "Church" was spiritual Israel and that Israel would never again be a nation. That was the majority view at that time.

Well, my dad, through his own personal study, came to see that Israel would one day be a nation again. At one time his view ranked about 2,000+ to 1. Now what would the odds say as to what his chances were to being right? Well, Israel became a nation on the 14th of May 1948 and my dad died on May 31, 1948. He was excommunicated from the "chruch" because he would not change his views. The lesson my father taught me was that the majority view is not always right, and don't believe everything I was taught as it being right.

Also, the majority of chruches today practise the rite of water baptism. Yet there is no majority view as to when, why and how the rite is to be administered. Personally I do not believe that the water rite should be practised today. But that is a different subject that could be discussed (argued - bep) later.

Well, so much for majority view.

Just thought that I would return the shot across you bow.

Have a good day, and God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

BigD...

 We agree that there is seven years left after the death of Jesus...right?

 The seven years are accounted for in Revelation, and are known as the tribulation period.

 We have always had "tribulation" throughout history, however, when Jesus speaks about the end, He makes it clear that this period of tribulation will be unlike any other period in the history of the world...this is what is known as the final seven tribulation period - satan will be in charge of the world...literally and physically.

 The entire seven year period is accounted for down to the last day in Revelation my friend.

First 3 1/2 years
The first half of Tribulation is covered in Revelation 6,7,8,9.
The Seal and the Trumpet judgements are detailed. At the conclusion of the the sixth Trumpet at least 47% of the earth's population has died. This period is 1260 days long.

Last 3 1/2 years
The second half of Tribulation is covered in Revelation 14,15,16,17,18,19. The Bowl judgements cover the whole earth as compared to portions of the earth in the Trumpet judgements. The earth is united under the direction of the antichrist to the final battle at Armageddon in Israel. This ends with the return of Jesus. This period is 1260 days long.

 Listen my friend. I think you may be confusing end days signs with the final seven years of tribulation.
Jesus was specific in detailing certain events which would take place in the "end times" one such detail was that Israel would once again become a nation, and as you correctly pointed out, it did in 1948, and I believe it became complete when it took control of Jerusalem in 67. Jesus also described catastrophic weather and geological events, which we are witnessing today. These are all ":end times" prophecies just as Joel's prophecies - are we to add all these years as part of the final seven? Of course not! These are "end times" prophecies - the final seven years of tribulation are just that - the final seven years of the end times. These seven years are clearly counted out in Revelations, and are described as starting when the antichrist signs the SEVEN YEAR peace deal. Come on BigD, you sound like an intelligent lad, it's right there in plain black and white, why can't you see it?

Seven year peace deal by antichrist
Daniel 9:27

First 1260 days
Revelation 6,7,8,9.

Last 1260 days
Revelation 14,15,16,17,18,19.

 There is no room for any more time my friend. The clock stoped when Jesus was cut off - there is seven years missing - the seven years are clearly pointed out and even numbered so there's no confusion - they are described in Daniel, and Revelation.

 I've shown you actual numbers to back up my claims BigD...can you show me verses in the bible where actual numbers can be found in relation to your beliefs?

 Bronzesnake

Majority views are overrated...as is normallness, worldliness, stupidity, breathing, and politics to name a few. :) as my friend says, she has simplified her theology to a single statement. "Eternity? Smoking or non?" That gets people to thinking...oh yea, your statement isn't too much to ask...i'll be glad to do some studying on it and get back to you on it. It may take a few days, but i'll see what i can find out. I still don't see what Peter's quotation of the first part of Joel's prophecy has to do with the Tribulation period. But i'll look into it. God Bless

Joshua

I totally believe in Calvin's belief of predestination i dont know how fully i believe in his concepts overalll though.  Anyway with Peter in Acts.  Im pulling some of this from my bible commentary, the last days that Joel refers to is Hebrew for afterwards so hes talking about after the holy spirit comes not the tribulation or any such way and then Peter puts it in the context of the "latter days of the new covenant" aka the age of Messianic Covenant and its fullilment and quoting from my commentary "latter days of the new covenant in contrast to the former days of the old covenant".  Sry if this is confusing im sort of rushing but this is what Acts 2 is refering to.

Bronzesnake, I am not disputing your numbers. That is a different rabbit trail that you are trying to lead me down. What we are discussing is - Did the Tribulation start at Pentecost. You have not shown me that Joel 2:28-32 is not speaking of the Tribulation or if he was, that Peter didn't know what he was talking about when he quoted Joel.

I do believe that the short time that the Tribulation was in progress, the manifistationions that were appearing were were signs that the Tribulation was starting. Peter said in Acts 2:16 "BUT THIS IS THAT WHICH WAS SPOKEN BY THE PROPHET JOEL." Peter is either right or didn't know where he was in the prophetic time clock.

Gaps in scripture are not uncomon. In Isaiah 9:6 we read: "For unto us a child is born,...and the government shall be upon His shoulders." We know that child was Jesus and He was born in Bethlehem. However, the government is yet to be upon His shoulders. That is still future. There is one lllooonnnngggg gap.

We know that the Old Testament prophets saw ALL of the particulars of Christ's 1st and 2nd comings, but often preceived them as one event. In Luke 4, we find the following:

16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21 And he began to say unto them This day is this scripture fulfilled.

Jesus was quoting Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Notice the point in Luke 4: where Jesus quoted the phrase "To preach the acceptable year of the Lord, " and Then closed the book. Jesus did not quote all of Isaiah's writing in verse 2. He left out the phrase: "and the day of vengeanace of our God;...(the Tribulation)" Had Jesus quoted that part of Isaiah 61:2 He would have not been able to say, as He did in Luke 4:21 "This day is this scripture fulfilled."

The part that Jesus quoted is still valid today, BUT the Tribulation has not yet been fulfilled. So you see, there is quite a gap between the comma after Jesus said "To preach the acceptable year of the Lord" and "the day of vengeance of our God."

From Moses to the setting aside of Israel the Law was in effect. After Israel was set aside, so was the Law. It was abolished by the cross during this dispensation of grace. During the Tribulation and the milleniumn the Law will again be ineffect. There will be 12 disciples sitting upon twelve thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. In order to judge, there must be Laws to judge by. Also, the Law will be written on the heart of every Jew (Jer. 31:33).

You should be able to see that there was a gap between the birth of Jesus and when the government will be upon His shoulders. Jesus was born but the government is still not upon His shoulders.

You should be able to see that there is a gap in Isaiah 61:2 between the phrase: "to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord" and "the day of vengeaance of our God. It is still "the acceptable year of the Lord", but the Tribulation is still not fulfilled.

You should be able to see that there is a gap within the dispensation of the Law - the dispensation of grace. We are still in the dispensation of grace, but at its close, the Law (new covenant) again will be in effect.

So, a gap in the Tribulation shouldn't be tooo shocking.

The book of the Revelation does cover all of the Tribulation period. The manifistations that started at Pentecost will resume after the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ. There will be a peace tready signed with the anti-christ and will be broken in the middle of the seven year. The last 3 1/2 year will be the Great Tribulation.

Keep in mind that this dispensation of grace cannot be found in prophesy. It "was kept secret since the world began." It was revealed to Paul AFTER the setting aside of the nation of Israel. Therefore, there are no prophesies being fulfilled today. However, there are events happening today that will lead to the fulfillment of OT prophesies. You cannotfind one word about the Chruch, the Body of Christ, in OT prophesies or the gospels.  You cannot find one word of the rapture in OT prophies or in the gospels. You cannot find salvation by grace through faith in the shed blood of Christ in OT prophesies and the gospels. They were part of the "mystery" that was revealed to Paul.

Bronzesnake, I do have several copies of a book that I would like to send you, at my expense. It will give you a good idea as to where I am coming from. It is titled "The MYSTERY" by pastor Joel Finck.

In order to do that, you would have to e-mail me your mailing address. I PROMISE that I will keep that information confidential and send not unrequested materials.

This offer is available to anyone out there that would like a copy of this book.

This book cannot be found in librayies or in book stores. In order to keep the cost of the book down, the author is his own publisher.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Jemidon2004:
THANKS for your reply:

I really appreciate the fact that you will look into my request. Will be looking forward to your reply.
-----------------------------

shrekandogre:
Acts 2:15-20 is speaking of the Tribulation. Peter is quoting Joel in verse 20 and calls it "that great and notable day of the lord..." Brother, that is the Tribulation.

For you, my friend, I will make an offer that I hope you don't refuse. As a former Calvinist that now rejects the 5 points of Calvinist, I would like to send you a book, at my expense, that does refute the 5 points of Calvinism (TULIP.) I will make this offer to anyone that desires to have this book. All that I need is to you you e-mail me your mailing address and I will send one. I PROMISE to keep that information confidential and not send any other materials unless requested.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

no that would not be the tribulation more like the second coming.   and your taking it out of context.

BigD responds:
The Lord's second coming COMPLETES the Tribulation. So the Tribulation has to happen prior to His second coming. I probably should have stated it that way originally.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

BigD,
       For my times sake, cause class have begun again and I am limited to the time I can spend here, would you please tell me which view you are supporting so I know where you are coming from for sure. Correct me so far is that you believe the tribulation period begun at Penticost in Act 2 with Peter sermon, and is then there is a gap, the rest of tribulation will finish at the rapture. If that is what you intended does this view support the mid trib?

musicllover

BigD responds:
THANKS for your quistion.

You have observed correctly, however, it is not the mid-trib view.

The mid-trib view is that the first 3 1/2 years is considered the 1st half of the Tribulation and then the rapture. After the rapture we go into the last 3 1/2 years which is called the Great Tribulation. Many today believe that the Chruch, the Body of Christ, will go through the 1st half of the Tribulation.

The Chruch, the Body of Christ was not yet "made" (see 2Tim.2:15), so it did not go through the short period of time that the Tribulation that started in Acts 2. Between Acts 2 and the stoning of Stephen was approx 1 year. So, I hope you can see that the Chruch, the Body of Christ, will and did not go through any part of the Tribulation.

Hope this isn't too confusing.

Feel free to ask any question you may have. Also, consider ordering the book I am offering.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

First off stop talking in the third person, we know its you so you dont have to say "BigD responds"...second off your using the same excuse over and over again after me and bronzesnake gave you verses that show you you're wrong and once again.  WHERE IS THE TREATY????  No treaty no tribulation.  Daniel 9:27  Either way you say it your belief is midtrib its in the middle of the tribulation according to you aka midtrib.

It isn't signed yet. Still future. There is NO scriptural support that says that the treaty MUST be signed before the Tribulation begins.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!.

Hello BigD my friend.

Did you get drunk on birthday cake?  :D

 I must agree with shrek, your theory on this one year tribulation is confused.
 Why was the stoning of Stephen so important that the clock should stop there? The scriptures clearly mark the time when Jesus was "cut off" at 483 years. Up to that point all the weeks were complete 490 year sections, why do you think the scriptures suddenly detail a 483 year period and ascribe it to the exact time when Jesus was crucified?

 Wouldn't it make more sense if the scriptures described a 494 year period to correspond with Stephen's death if you were correct? That's a year from Acts 2 to Stephen's death. I subscribe it's an even longer period of time from the crucifixion of Jesus to Stephen's death, which would cut into the final seven year timeline from the signing of the peace deal,  but for arguments sake I'll go along with your numbers.

Again; the scriptures clearly provide for a seven year period (not six years) which begins with the antichrist signing the peace deal. What do we do with your extra year?

 

 My friend - once again you have confused me. What exactly does 2Tim 2:15 have to do with the body of Christ not being "made" yet?

 2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 I mean, it's a great verse, but anyone could use that verse, even if their doctrine is severely flawed. Does using that verse make any doctrine correct?

 Finally my friend with a 73 candled cake - You can not have one year of tribulation having passed and still ascribe to a Pre-Trib rapture. Even if you believe there were no "Christians" after Jesus died - it's still Post Trib, even if only one year of tribulation passed and the Church was not as of yet born. Pre-Trib rapture means the Tribulation period will not begin before the Rapture. It doesn't mean the Church is not born before the Tribulation.

 For example; let's say the Church was not born until the fifth year of Tribulation has occurred, and the Rapture occurred at that point. Is that still a Pre-Trib Rapture? Of course it isn't, because the Tribulation has already begun.

 Take care Big Guy...and thanks for your sincere book offer, that was truly generous. I will e-mail you with my address, but I must be honest with you. I can tell you for certain that I will never ascribe to your logic, however, I think there is wisdom in at least attempting to understand your viewpoint. At the very least, I could then, offer you a more effective rebuttal.

 Bronzesnake

BigD,
     you said it is not the mid-trib view, so what view is it? I'm trying really hard not to get confused but I've never heard anything like what your teaching here. Mid trib view yes, post trib, or pre trib so what is this?

musicllover
musicllover

Bronze:
I am leaving in about 10 minuted to go to me great grand-daugheters 4the bithday party which is about 100 miles away. Won't have time to answer you today, but will probabley do that tomarrow.

Ordering the book will be a GREAT help in your understanding my position. Hope more will do it.

Gota run.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Howdy,
         this is to those on the thread who are as confused as I am. I looked up the author Big D suggested and seems to be a follower of, Joel Fink he is a believer of the ..."The Free Grace movement is housed under a pretty big tent. Finck represents Free Grace believers, who are sometimes referred to as Ultra-Dispensationalists. (Finck actually calls himself a mid-Acts Dispensationalist.)....If you would like to read the small bio on him concerning another of his books you can read it here......
http://www.faithalone.org/journal/bookreviews/finck.html (http://www.faithalone.org/journal/bookreviews/finck.html)

I hope that works, not sure how all this linking stuff works. But either way I just typed in Finck name on a search engine and I'm sure you'll find something.

NOW what the heck is ultra dispensationalistism.......  had to spit my teeth out for that one  :-X

musicllover

 Thanks musiclover. The link worked and was just as confusing as what BigD has offered, so I guess they're alligned.

 Bronzesnake

I agree Bronze,
        try this one and see if it helps this group, or groups as of yet can't agree themselves either.....http://mb-soft.com/believe/text/ultradis.htm (http://mb-soft.com/believe/text/ultradis.htm)
I'm not sure I'm helping myself much trying to understand where Big D is coming from, I'm going to stick wtih what I've understood for sometime now..... pretribber all the way, and NO I didn't did a bib to say that one... :P

musicllover

BigD,
    I can wait, but in the mean time answer me a few quesitons.
    I looked up the dispensational group, to be honests I am concerned.
Do you believe that Jesus is the only son of God?
How many ways is there to get to Heaven?
Do you believe in water batptism?
Do you believe in the Lords supper?
How man dispensations are there?
for just a few.
I know this may not seem like it has much to do with the thread, but for me it does. Its all in the fruits we bare, if a cult was here teaching then we would have a problem, (not saying your from a cult but I want to be sure)
musicllover

Bronze:
Hello BigD my friend.
Did you get drunk on birthday cake?  

BigD:
No, but it sure was good. Probably ate tooooo much of it.

Bronze:
I agree with shrek, your theory on this one year tribulation is confused.

BigD:
If you can understand the gap in  Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born,...and the government shall be upon His shoulders." If you can understand the gap between the to phrases I mentioned in Isaiah 61:1,2. If you can understand that there was a break in the dispensation of the Law to the dispensation of grace, and then after the rapture everything will be back under the Law, Then I don't know why it is so hard to understand the break in the Tribulation.

With the setting aside of Israel, that put a break in the dispensation of the Law. Being the Tribulation started at Pentedost, It was also interrupted at that time. God was still dealing with the Jews as His favorite people.

Bronze:
Why was the stoning of Stephen so important that the clock should stop there?

BigD:
As I explained earlier, It was after Israel, as a nation, rejected the Trinity. The Jews, as a nation, have already rejected God the Father and God the Son. With the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7 is when the leaders of Israel rejected the Third Person of the Trinity. It is after the stoning of Stephen that God set the nation of Israel aside and raised up the Apostle Paul, in Acts 9, to usher in the dispensation of grace. God informed Peter in Acts 10 that he no longer to considered the Jew "unclean". He showed Peter that the Jew and Gentile are now on equal footing and without distinction.

Was the Gentile brought up to the position of the Jews? NO!!! The Jew was brought down to the same level that the Gentiles were brought down in Genesis 11, at the Tower of Bable.

BigD:
The Chruch, the Body of Christ was not yet "made" (see 2 Tim.2:15).

Bronze:
My friend - once again you have confused me. What exactly does 2Tim 2:15 have to do with the body of Christ not being "made" yet?

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I mean, it's a great verse, but anyone could use that verse, even if their doctrine is severely flawed. Does using that verse make any doctrine correct?

BigD:
Forgive me Bronze. I wrote 2Tim.2:15 when I meant Ephesians 2:15. (One of my senior moments.) I will agree with you though 2Tim.2:15 I a verse that one should follow. However I will continue to show how Eph.2:15 fits in, but I will include a few more verses.

I will get to that, but first:

Romans 11:7-12 tells of the setting aside of the nation of Israel. Paul tell us in verse 25 "...that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."  So Israel is temporarily blinded and will end with the fulness of the Gentile - the rapture of the Chruch the Body of Christ.

What is going to happen after the rapture? Well, verse 26, 27 gives us the answer. "And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written. There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sin.

Why did God set Israel aside (temporarily) like he did the Gentiles back in Genesis 11?

The answer is found in verse 32 "For God hath concluded them all (Gentileand Jew) in unbelief, that he might show mercy upon all.

Well if ALL are concluded in unbelief, how is God going bring salvation to all mankind.

Here is where Eph.2:15 comes in. I will quote several verses.

If you will recall back in the other forum and the dialogue with Quasar, I had shown him from Scripture that the Church, the Body of Christ, was not formed "made" until after the setting aside of Israel. For review, I will just say that the Chruch, the Body of Christ, is made up of Jew and Gentile, on equal footing and without distinction and not under the Law. NEVER, prior to the stoning of Stephen and the raising up of Saul Paul do we find those mentioned conditions.

Ephesians 2:13 "BUT NOW (wasn't that way before) in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off (Gentiles) are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he (Jesus) is our peace, who hath made both (Jew and Gentile) one and broken down the middle wall of partition between us (Jew and Gentile):
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments; for to MAKE in himself of twain (set aside Jews and set aside Gentiles) one new man (the Body of Christ), so making peace:
16 And that he might reconcile both (Jew and Gentile) in one body (the Body of Christ, the Chruch for today) by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off (Gentiles), and to them that were nigh (Jews).
18 For through him we both (Jew and Gentile) have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

To be continues:

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

Part 2

Bronze:
 The scriptures clearly mark the time when Jesus was "cut off" at 483 years. Up to that point all the weeks were complete 490 year sections, why do you think the scriptures suddenly detail a 483 year period and ascribe it to the exact time when Jesus was crucified?

Wouldn't it make more sense if the scriptures described a 494 year period to correspond with Stephen's death if you were correct? That's a year from Acts 2 to Stephen's death. I subscribe it's an even longer period of time from the crucifixion of Jesus to Stephen's death, which would cut into the final seven year timeline from the signing of the peace deal,  but for arguments sake I'll go along with your numbers.

Again; the scriptures clearly provide for a seven year period (not six years) which begins with the antichrist signing the peace deal. What do we do with your extra year?

BigD:
I don't see where what you posted above disproves that the Tribulation didn't start at Pentecost. You can do that very easily if you will just show me that Joel was not speaking of the Tribulation in 2:28-32 or that Peter didn't know what he was talking about in Acts 2:15-20. I have told you a couple of times that I would change my views if you could show me that from Scripture.

I haven't found any Scripture that states that the Tribulation cannot begin until after the treaty is signed. Point is out to me if there is. Is it the Body of Christ that is going to sign the peace treaty with the anti-Christ, so that the Tribulation can start immediately after the rapture? If so, Who in the Body of Christ will do it?

Israel, as a nation, will sign the treaty with the anti-Christ. It is restored Israel that will do it. Just how long a preiod between the rapture and the restoration of Israel and the signing of the peace treaty with the anti-Christ.

Just to reply to what you posted above, I am going to quote from the book "REVELATION for the ADVANCED STUDENT" by Jack D. Hastings. There are areas where I do disagree with him in the book but the part I am going to copy; I do agree with him.

>SNIP< So what we have here is:
(69 weeks of years - 483 years), the church age intervening (1 week of years - 7 years) Now looking at the 70 weeks of yars more closely, let's see what is to be accomplished:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy." (verse 24)

"upon they people and upon they holy city," It is upon the Jewish people and upon the City of Jerusalem: "to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sin," it is the Jewish Transgression and their sin of rejection that is to be brought to an end; "and to make reconciliation for iniquity," it is not the crucifixion of Christ that is the reconciliation, but rather the means by which the reconciliation was made. At His glorious appearing, at the end of the 70th wee, our Lord, on the basis of His sacrifice at Calvary wil "reconcile" his chosen people (Israle unto himself. >Snip<

Bronze:
Finally my friend with a 73 candled cake - You can not have one year of tribulation having passed and still ascribe to a Pre-Trib rapture. Even if you believe there were no "Christians" after Jesus died - it's still Post Trib, even if only one year of tribulation passed and the Church was not as of yet born. Pre-Trib rapture means the Tribulation period will not begin before the Rapture. It doesn't mean the Church is not born before the Tribulation.

For example; let's say the Church was not born until the fifth year of Tribulation has occurred, and the Rapture occurred at that point. Is that still a Pre-Trib Rapture? Of course it isn't, because the Tribulation has already begun.

BigD:
The Chruch, the Body of Christ, was not yet made when the Tribulation started in Acts 2 so it did not go through the Tribulation then. It just didn't exist. The Body of Christ was formed AFTER Israel was set aside and will be raptured prior to the resumption of the Tribulation. I am pre-Trib all the way.

Bronze:
Take care Big Guy...and thanks for your sincere book offer, that was truly generous. I will e-mail you with my address, but I must be honest with you. I can tell you for certain that I will never ascribe to your logic, however, I think there is wisdom in at least attempting to understand your viewpoint. At the very least, I could then, offer you a more effective rebuttal.

BigD.
I will mail you the book the day I get your address. I forgot to give my e-mail address. It is jellema@alliancecom.net.

You know, I have bought and given away a few cases of Joel Finck's books. The only ones that I hear from are the ones that were grateful for what they have learned from it. Several have requested the book in order to refute its contents. I have yet to hear from even one of them.

You may or may not agree with anything you read in the book. I have several book by authors that I basically disagree with. However, my knowledge of the Scriptures have been broadened by reading them. They made me be a Berean to "see if these things are so." So, my recommendation to you, when you read it, is to check what Joel says with the Bible.

I do know Joel personally and consider him a personal friend. However, I have had my views many years before I ever heard of him or met him. So please don't consider me a follower of Joel Finck. Just consider us "like minded believers."

Looking forward to you mailing address, and I am enjoying our dialogue.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

quote author=musicllover link=board=4;threadid=6559;start=30#msg92394 date=1106414276]
Howdy,
         this is to those on the thread who are as confused as I am. I looked up the author Big D suggested and seems to be a follower of, Joel Fink he is a believer of the ..."The Free Grace movement is housed under a pretty big tent. Finck represents Free Grace believers, who are sometimes referred to as Ultra-Dispensationalists. (Finck actually calls himself a mid-Acts Dispensationalist.)....If you would like to read the small bio on him concerning another of his books you can read it here......
http://www.faithalone.org/journal/bookreviews/finck.html (http://www.faithalone.org/journal/bookreviews/finck.html)

I hope that works, not sure how all this linking stuff works. But either way I just typed in Finck name on a search engine and I'm sure you'll find something.

NOW what the heck is ultra dispensationalistism.......  had to spit my teeth out for that one  :-X

musicllover
musicllover:
First of all, I do not consider myself a "follower" of Joel Finck. I have held my view many years prior to ever hearing of him or getting to know him. You can consider us "like minded believers." He is no longer in Rapid City, SD but in Tabor, SD which is about 50 miles from where I live. He does visit our church on occasions.

Joel is strickly independant and self supporting. As another way to support his ministry, I, like several others, buy his book at his retail price and give them away. He feels that his call is to establish "Grace Chruches" where there are none. Once he has established a church that is self supporting, he will move on to another area. There were no Grace Churches in the Rapid City, SD area when he went there. Should you ever take a trip to Mt Rushmore you will find, along the road between Rapid City and Mt Rushore, a beautiful log cabin type Church that Joel established. He now has a growing ministry in Tabor, SD. He is also in much demand at Bible conferences around the country.

There are many even in the denominational circles that consider themselves "dispensationalists." Many Baptist, Pentecostal and non-denominational church that claim to be dispensationalists. I too consider myself an Acts 9/mid-Acts dispensationalist.

There are three major groups that are referred to as dispensationalists. There are the Act 2,  Acts 9/mid-Acts and Acts 28:28 dispies. Dr. Scofield, in his footnotes in the Scofield Bible are based on the Acts 2 "dispie" position. I do use a Scofield Bible as my main Bible. I do enjoy his footnotes and consider most of them very helpful, however, I do disagree with several of them also.

Having read the link that you posted, I do find one statement that Mr Wilking stated to be in misleading when he said: "And I also hope we continue to hold that justification has always been by grace through faith apart from works."

Salvation has ALWAYS been by grace (the grace of God) through FAITH (in what God required at that point in time of human history). After the fall of Adam and Eve, God gave them a conscience to know right from wrong. They were saved/justified by doing the "right" that thier conscience dictated. Cain and Able were required to make a sacrifice (work) in order to be saved/justified. Well we know that Abel make the required sacrifice. In order to be saved/justified, Noah and to believe God (faith) and build an ark (work). Abram (a Gentile) was saved/justified (called righteous) by just believing God and looking to heaven and observe the stars. Abraham, after being circumcised in the flesh, and offering up his son Isaac, was saved/justified by believing God (faith) and offering his son (work). Doesn't James, in his letter say in chapter 2:21 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar.

Also, after God gave the Law to Moses, the children of Israel had to do the deeds/works of the Law BY FAITH. Deeds/works were the vehicle that demonstrated thier FAITH. The deed/works in themselves had no saving power. Also, At Pentecost in order to be saved; the convert had to repent, and be baptized (work). Their receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost was conditioned upon their doing what was required of them.

Today we are not saved/justified by following our conscience, offering a sacrifice, building a boat, looking to heaven to observe the stars, offering our son upon an altar, or doing the deed/works of the law BY FAITH. All those things belonged to different dispensations. The attributesGod have NEVER changed. He is the same today as he was yesterday and will still be the same in the future. Hope you can now see that God has dealt differently with manking throughout human history (dispensations.)

Salvation/justification today is not by doing any of the above BY FAITH. We are saved/justified by putting our FAITH and trust in the Cross work (death, burial and resurrection) of Christ. [/b]NO WORKS REQUIRED.[/b] We do not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit by believing and being baptized. We are baptized (dry-cleaned) {identified with Christs'  death, burial and resurrection} BY the Holy Spirit the moment we put our faith and trust in the Cross work of Christ (1Cor.12:13) . At Pentecost, Jesus is the baptizer WITH the Holy Spirit.

When did salvation/justification by FAITH ALONE come into effect? AFTER Israel was set aside and the raising up of the Apostle Paul to usher in this dispensation of grace "which was kept secret since the world began."

I was happy to see that Mr. Wilkin has recommended Joel's book. I do have a few extra copies of that book (LORDSHIP SALVATION) that I give away also.

Just want to close by saying that Joel only represents ONLY THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Much and Love The Lord!

musicllover posted:

Let me try and eliminate your concerns. Dispensationalism is not a denomination or a specific doctrine. It is just the manner in which one studies the Bible. It is man that tries to put us into different "boxes."

To answer your questions:
Q: Do you believe that Jesus is the only son of God?
A: YES!!!

Q: How many ways is there to get to Heaven?
A: Only one. that is through the rapture. Those that were saved outside the dispensation of grace will inherit an earthly kingdom.

I do believe that what you really want to know is:
Q: How many ways is one saved?
A: Again, only one. By faith.

Q: Do you believe in water batptism?
A: I do believe that water baptism is a requirement at one time, but do not believe it has a place in this dispensation of Grace. If you study the different baptisms in the Bible, you will find there are at least 12. Paul says in Eph.4:5 there there is only "one baptism" today. That baptism, I do believe is the one mentioned in 1Cor.12:13 "For by one Spirit (Holy Spirit) are we all baptized into one body (the Body of Christ), whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink one Spirit." Brother, that to me is a "dry-cleaning."

If you wish, I will explain my view on the rite of water baptism later; either in a personal e-mail or on this forum.

Q: Do you believe in the Lords supper?
A: I do participate in the Lord supper as a memorial in accordance with 1Cor.11:23-26.

Q: How man dispensations are there?
A: There is no set number of dispensations that can by found in the Bible. However, the majority view is that there are 7 major dispensations in the Bible.

Paul in Ephesians 2 list three (3) different broad dispensations in just that one chapter.

In verses 11, 12 he speaks of "TIMES PAST." the way things used to be. (When there was a "wall of partition" between the Jew and Gentile. During that period a Gentile that wanted to serve the true and living God had to become a Jew [proselyte], and place themselves under the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses.)

In verse 13 he speaks of "BUT NOW," the way things are today. (The middle wall of partition is broken down and the Jew and Gentile are on equal footing, without distinction and NOT under the Law.

In verse 7, he speaks of "THE AGES TO COME." When God will bring His purposes to fruition.
--------------------------------

Before I was shown how to study the Bible from a dispensational point of view, the Bible was a contradictory book and I could not figure it out. I was taught and believed that I had to live by what the entire Bible required, and that all the Bible was TO ME of follow. Also, that I had to read my Bible every day,
 confess my sins every night, and live by the 10 commandments. This I tried my best to do. I had no problem with reading my Bible everyday, and confessing my sins every night. As hard as I tried, I could not live by what ALL the Bible taught, because it seemed contradictory. You have to know how miserably all of us fail when it comes to living by the 10 commandments. So, as hard as I tried, I just knew that if I died, I would never be good enough to go to heaven.

Because no one was able to answer my questions about the seemingly contradictions in the Bible, I finally just gave up trying, and even had to quit reading the Bible for fear of going crazy. Went the way of the world for many many years; even though I had a longing for truth.

After going unchurched for far too many years, the Lord led me to a little church in South Chicago where in just one sermon all the questions of my youth were answered. (I sat dumbfounded because I never asked a question.) I was shown that all the Bible is FOR ME but not all TO ME. The parts where God was dealing with Israel as His chosen people were for Israel, NOT for members of the Body of Christ. The the instructions in righteousness for members of the Body of Christ were given to Paul. That the doctrine of LAW (to Israel) and the doctrine of GRACE (to the Body of Christ) are two opposing doctrines. If mixed, they only lead to confusion and denominations.

That the book of Acts was not just a book to show the growth of the chruch, but it show the setting aside of Israel and the LAW to the establishing of the Chruch, the Body of Christ, under the dispensation of GRACE. How the book started out as Peter and the 12 being the main characters, and ending up with Paul being the main character.

There are two things that really helped me to understand the Bible, and what is for us members of the Body of Christ today. It is the study of the 7 major dispensations and the difference between PROPHESY, that Jesus came to fulfill while upon the earth, and MYSTERY which was kept secret since the world began, until revealed to Paul.

I will post them later in seperate post.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Big D what is your problem.  You say that are verses aren't applied here and you totally ignore Daniel 9:27a "He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering."  The he is the antichrist the many is Isreal and it will start the Tribulation because it says so right here.  You however have used ONE verse to support your belief there is no bibical proof at all that this happened.  If the tribulation occured then stopped is irrational.  Your missing componenets of the tribulation.  Like the antichrist.  There is no tribulation if there is no antichrust so where is the antichrist in acts.  You cant have two different ones there is only one.  And if your pretrib then you believe that the rapture occured before the tribulation so therefore before Acts which would be a couple days after Jesus ascends into heaven.   Your midtrib and you know it just admit it.

Musicllover:
The following will not fit in one posting so it might take two or three.

Most dispensationals agree upon 7 Dispensations. However, there are no set amount of dispensations that can be arrived at in in Bible. Paul in Ephesians 2, list 3 dispensations. 1. "Times Past" vss 11.13. 2. "But Now" vs 13. 3. "Ages to Come" vs 7.

The following is taken from a chart that was produced by the Berean Bible Society. It is based upon the "Dispensation of Grace" starting with the raising up of the Apostle Paul after the stoning of Stephen. I might add that all dispensationalist will not agree with this chart percisely.

GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES*

*(Each dispensation is defined by four characteristics.)

A. All what God dispenses to, requires of, promises to, and commands men.
B. Man's responsibility to God.
C. Then man's failure.
D. God's judgment for man's failure and disobedience.

1. DISPENSATION OF INNOCENCE:

A. God created man in His image and therefore God dealt with man in his innocence (Gen 1:26,27). Adam and Eve were placed into a perfect environment and were vegetarians (Gen 2:5,8,9).

B. Man was responsible to dress the garden and keep it (Gen 2:15) and to abstain from partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Gen 2:17).

C. Mans failure came when Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate of the forbidden fruit (Gen 3:6).

D. Judgment came upon them as they were expelled from the garden and the perfect environment in which they had lived was cursed. Thus sin, sorrow and death entered the world (Gen 3:16-19, 23,24; Rm 5:12-14).

2. DISPENSATION OF CONSCIENCE:

A. God dispensed conscience to Adam and Eve who, when they disobeyed Him, realized that they were naked, thus manifesting that they had to come to a knowledge of good and evil (Gen 3:7-10).

B. Now that conscience was to govern man, he was responsible "...to know good and evil..." (Gen 3:22).

God commanded Cain and Able to bring a blood sascrifice to be accepted by Him (Gen 4:1-4) to be offered by faith (Heb 11:4).

C. Cain disobeyed God in failing to bring an acceptable sacrifice, and in a jealous rage killed his brother Abel (Gen 4:5-15).

Man became polygamous (Gen 4:19). As men refused to heed their conscience, through them the earth became corrupt and was filled with violence (Gen 6:11-13).

D. God's judgment upon the corrupt and violent world came with the universal flood in the days of Noah (Gen 6:17).

3. DISPENSATION OF HUMAN GOVERNMENT;

A. God revealed that man was now to govern, thus strongly implying the rise of nations and the need for the establishment of human government (Gen 9:5,6).

B. Man was responsibsle to establish laws that were in accordance with God's righteous standards. He was responsible to "be ye fruitful, and multiply: bring forth abundantly in the earth, and myultiply therein" (Gen 11:4).

In defiance of the Holy One of heaven, they erected the so-called Tower of Babel to pay homage to the astrological signs of heaven (Gen 11:3,4; cf Rm 1:22,23).

C. Man failed when they disobeyed God's command to bring forth abundantly and, in uniting together, failed to multiply in the earth (Gen 11:4).

D. Judgment came swiftly as the Lord confounded their language and scattered them abroad upon the face of all the earth (Gen 11:7-9).

4. DISPENSATION OF PROMISE:

A. God dispensed a promise to Abram: "And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:...and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed" (Gen 12:2,3). God also promised that he would "...multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore..." (Gen 22:17), and unto them would be given a land called canaan (Gen 15:18).

B. Although the covenant that God established with Abraham was unconditional, Abraham and his descendants were responsible to trust God to fulfill His promise (Gen 26:1-4; 28:10-15).

C. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob failed to trust God completely. Instead of going to the land of Canaan from Ur of the Chaldees, Abraham came to Haran and dwelt there until his father died (Acts 7:4).

When the famine came upon the land, Isaac reluctantly obeyed God by not going into Egypt, however, he moved to Gerar, as close to Egypt as possible (Gen 26:1-6).

Jacob stole the birthright from his brother Esau (Gen 25:24-34) and later he forsook the land of his forefathers and, under the permissive will of God, moved to Egypt (Gen 41:54-57; cf Gen 46:26).

D. God's judgment came upon Israel when she remained in Egypt for 400 years in severe bondage to the Egyuptians.

5. DISPENSATION OF LAW:

A. God dispensed the Law to Moses. The purpose of the Law was to give Israel the knowledge of sin (Rm 3:20). The Law had the following characteristics.

1)MORAL: The ten commandments were given to govern the moral life of Israel (Ex 20).

2)CIVIL: The judgments were given to govern the individual Israelites in his dealings with the others (Ex 21).

3)CEREMONIAL: Provisions were formulated by which an atonement for sins could be made (Lev 16).

B. Since the Covenant of Law, or Mosaic Covenant, was conditional, those who were placed under it were responsible to keep all the 613 Commandments; thus Israel could only realize the blessings of God when she obeyed His voice (Ex 19:3-7).

C. Although Israel agreed to do "...all that the Lord hath spoken..." (Ex 19:8), the promise to obey soon proved to be a yoke about her neck (Acts 15:10), and Israel's failure under the Dispensation of the Law are too numerous to list; howerer, some of the more notable were:

1)Idol worship (Ex 32:1-6)
2)Unbelief (Num 13:26-33)
3)Murmuring (Num 16:1-8)
4)Fornication (Num 25:1-3)
5)Rejection of Messiah (John 19:15,16)

D. God's judgment came upon Israel many time during the approximately 1500 years that the nation was under the Dispensation of the Law. Among the more devastation calamities that befell here were:

1)The Assyrian Captivities (2Kings 17:4-6; 15:18)
2)The Babylonian Captivities (2Chron 36:11-21)
3)The setting aside of Israel in unbelief after the stoning of Stephen (Acts 7).

(The death of Jesus Christ on the Cross of Calvary did not bring to an end the Dispensation of Promise and the Law, nor did it initiate the Dispensation of Grace. Beginning with the stoning of Stephen and subsequent conversion of Saul of Tarsus, the temporary setting aside of God's earthly people, Israel, gradually took place. At the same time, God gradually began to make known to the new apostle, Paul, "the revelation of the mystery.")

This program of His heavenly people is called "...the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest...made known to all nations for obedience of faith:" (Rm16:25,26).

Concurrently with the steady declension of God's Prophetic Program for His earthly people, with the final, yet temporary seting aside of Israel, was the steady ascension of His Heavenly program, the Mystery. There was, therefore, an overlapping of the two programs and dispensations, a transition period. God's Prophetic program will not resume until the beginning of the tribulation in the Kingdom Age.

To be continued:

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Part 2:
6. DISPENSATION OF GRACE:

A. God dispenses grace to a lost and dying world (Eph 2:5, 3:2).

In the Dispensation of Grace a new creation has been brought into existence (2Cor5:17) which is called "...the Church, which is his Body..." (Eph 2:14-17).

Christ is the Head of the Body (Col 1:18) and holds an exalted position as He carries out His heavenly ministry (Phil 2:9: Eph 1:20-23).

B. Men and women are responsible to receive the written Word of God by faith and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved (Acts 16:31). Salvation is obtained by grace through faith, not of works (Eph 2:8,9).

Members of the Body of Christ are responsible to preach Jesus according to the revelation of the Mystery (Rm 16:25; 1Cor 9:16-18) and "to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery" (Eph 3:9) by doing the work of an evangelist (2Tim 4:5).

C. To a great degree men and women have failed to trust God; to believe His work, and to receive His Son, Jesus Christ as their Savior.

D. The Dispensation of Grace will close when "the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" Rm 11:25). All members of the Church which is His Body, living and dead, will then "...be caught up together..." in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air..." (1Thes 4:17; 2Cor10:11; Eph 3:9; Col 1:27).

Those unsaved living after the close of this Dispensation will go into the seven year tribulation. The unsaved who die during this Dispensation will join with other unsaved dead of all ages at the Great White Throne to be cast into the lake of fire (Rev 10:11-15).

7. THE DAY OF THE LORD;

A. God will dispense both wrath and justice uupon the world which has rejected his Son (Psa 2:1-12).

God's Prophetic Program, which was temporarily interrupted when the Dispensation of Grace began, will resume at the "time of Jacob's trouble" (Jer 30:7). Thus Israel will once again be in view as the world endures seven years of tribulation (Rev 7:1-8).

The great tribulation is a prelude to the coming Milennial Kingdom and has it purpose of overthrowing the Kingdoms of the world and the establishment "of Kingdoms of our Lord, and His Christ" (Rev 11:15), and will close at the Second Coming of Christ (Jer 30:7; Isa 24:1, Mat 24:29,30).

The Second Coming of Christ will initiate His reigh as King for a period of 1,000 years (Rev 20:4,5,7). During His reign the Throne of David will be established (2Sam 7:16; Mat 19:28; Acts 2:30). Justice will fill the earth (Jer 23:5,6); peace will prevail (Isa:9:6,7), and the Abrahamic, Davidic and Palestinian Covenants will be fulfilled.

B. It will be Israel's responsibility to declare that Christ is indeed the Messiah of Israel.

Repentance and baptism will again be preached (Mar 16:15,16; Acts 2:38; cf Rev 9:21) and certain aspects of the Law, such as the Sabbath, must again be observed (Mat 24:20).

C. In the face of almost unbelievable judgment, men will blaspheme God during the tribulation (Rev 16:11,21) and in the Millenial Kingdom will continue to sin against God (Isa 65:20). Although the Lord Jesus Chris rules in righteousness for 1,000 years, there will be those who rebel at the end of the Millenium and challenge His authority (Rev 20:7-9).

D. With the Church, the Body of Christ, seated with Him in the heavenlies, the Kingdom Age will be the consumation of all the previous ages and there will be a number of judgments. The establishment of the " Kingdoms of the Lord, and His Christ" will be accomplished by the judging and chastening of Israel (Mat 25:14-30), and the punishing of the nations (Mat 25:31-46).

At the end of the Millenial Kingdom, all of the unsaved of all ages will stand before the Great White Throne of God and be condemned to spend eternity in the lake of fire (Rev 20:11-15).

The Great Day of the Lord will close when the heavens and the earth are consumed with fire as God prepares to execute His Eternal Purpose (2Pet 3:10: Eph 1:10).

8. DISPENSATION OF THE FULLNESS OF TIME: (There are some that do not consider this a dispensation.)

A. God's ultimate purpose of His creation is that "He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth: even in Him (Eph 1:19).

The renovation of the heavens and the earth will return then to their pristine beauty (Psa 104:5; Isa 65:17; 2Pet 3:11; Rev 21:1).

The Body of Christ will reign with Christ in the heavenlies (Eph 2:6,7), and Israel and those redeemed under God's prophetic Program will reign with Christ from the New Jerusalem on the renovated earth (Rev 21:9-27).

A. All saints will live through eternity in perfect harmony with one another, and since all things have been gathered together in Christ, it seems likely that the heaven and the earth will be open to all the redeemed of all ages. God will be all in all (1Cor 5:9).
B. All will serve Him with gladness (2Cor5:9).
C. There will be no more failures.
D. There will be no more judgment.

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying; neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Rev 21:4).

Hope this is helpfull.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Musiclover:

In his book "Things That Differ" Pastor Stam list 14 basic things between PROPHECY (P), (those things that were spoken "SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN" that Jesus came to fulfill, Romans 15:8), and THE MYSTERY (M). (which was "KEPT SECRET SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN," and revealed to the Apostle Paul.)

1. (P) Concerns a kingdom; a political organization (Dan. 2:44, Matt. 6:10).

(M) Concerns a body; a living organism (I Cor. 12:12,27, Eph. 4:12-16).

2. (P) The kingdom to be established on earth (Jer. 23:5, Matt. 6:10).

(M) The body given a position in heaven (Eph. 1:3, 2:5-6, Col 3:1-3).

3. (P) Christ to be its King (Jer. 23:5, Isa.9:6,7).

(M) Christ its living Head (Eph. 1:19-23,Col. 1:18).

4. (P) The kingdom prophesied "since the world began" (Luke 1:68-70, Acts3:21).

(M) The body chosen in Christ before the world began, but "kept secret sincethe world began" (Rom. 16:25, Eph.
1:4-11, 3:5-9).

5. (P) Israel to be given supremacy over the nations (Isa. 60:10-12, 61:6).

(M) Jew and Gentile placed on the same level before God (Rom. 10:12, 11:32,Eph. 2:16,17).

6. (P) The Gentiles to be blessed through Israel’s instrumentality (Gen.22:17,18, Zech. 8:13).

(M) The Gentiles blessed through Israel’s obstinacy (Acts 13:44-46,Rom. 11:28-32).

7. (P) The Gentiles to be blessed through Israel’s rise (Isa. 60:1-3, Zech. 8:22,23).

(M) The Gentiles blessed throughI srael’s fall (Acts 28:27,28, Rom.11:11, 12, 15).

8. (P) Prophecy mainly concerns nations as such (Isa. 2:4, Ezek. 37:21, 22).

(M) The mystery concerns individuals (Rom. 10:12, 13, II Cor. 5:14-17).

9. (P) Prophecy concerns blessings, both material and spiritual, on earth (Isa.2:3, 4, 11:1-9, etc.).

(M)The mystery concerns "all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies" (Eph.1:3, Col. 3:1-3).

10. (P) Prophecy concerns Christ’s coming to the earth (Isa. 59:20, Zech. 14:4).

(M)The mystery explains Christ’s present absence from the earth (Eph. 1:20-23, Col. 3:1-3).

11. (P) In prophecy salvation by grace through faith alone is not contemplated.

(M) Salvation by faith alone lies at the very heart of the mystery (Rom. 3:21-26, 4:5, Eph.2:8,9).

12, (P)The proclamation of the prophetic program committed particularly to the twelve (Matt. 10:5-7, Acts 1:6-8, 3:19-26).

(M) The proclamation of the mystery committed particularly to Paul (Eph.3:1-3, 8-9, Col. 1:24-27).

13 (P) The prophetic program revealed through many of God’s servants (Luke 1:70, II Pet. 1:21).

(M) The mystery revealed through one man; Paul (Gal. 1:1, 11, 12, 2:2, 7, 9,Eph. 3:2,3).

14. (P) Old testament writers frequently did not understand the prophecies made known through them (Dan. 12:8-10, IPeter 1:10-12).

(M) Paul both understood and longed that others might understand the mystery revealed through him. (Eph.1:15-23, 3:14-21, Col. 1:9 -10, 2:1-3).

Hope this is helpful.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lordd!

Brothers and Sisters,

It is more than apparent that all in this discussion agree on the single MOST IMPORTANT fact of this life:

1 - Jesus Christ was Almighty God made manifest in the flesh.

2 - Jesus Christ died on the CROSS for our sins.

3 - Jesus Christ arose from the dead on the third day and is our Living Lord and Saviour forever.

4 - Jesus Christ was and is the only PERFECT SACRIFICE, and HIS sacrifice is a free GIFT to all who believe, have faith in who HE was and IS, and ask HIM to come into their hearts as LORD over their lives.

The point I would like to make is all involved in this discussion appear to be born again Children of God. We will spend eternity together with JESUS, regardless of our agreement or disagreement on non-Salvation issues.

I think it is good when we can discuss our differences in Christian love when we are discussing things with another brother or sister in Christ. We can all learn something when Christian love is the highest priority. If the discussion is vain and leads to division, Christians should not be involved. I'm obviously not talking about heresy, blasphemy, and false teaching that is destructive to THE BODY OF CHRIST.

We do manage to have many pleasant discussions here about differences that do not involve our own vanity. There is no irony that most vain discussions are a waste of time and the various points go in one ear and out the other. The opposite is mainly true when we manage to put vanity away and have discussions in Christian love.

2 Timothy 2:14  Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
2 Timothy 2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Please pay particular attention to 2 Timothy 2:14. This is the reason why many Christians withdraw or refuse to have debates about non-Salvation issues. If Christian love is the highest priority in our discussions about differences, we can avoid the striving (contention - warring) about words to no profit and subverting of the hearers. If we can't, we should heed the words of 2 Timothy 2:14 and other portions of Scripture that direct Christian conduct.

This is not a forum rule for Christians Unite. However, it is a rule in the hearts of many Christians, and it explains why many people don't participate in some discussions. Our users on Christians Unite are free to argue and debate all they wish as long as they obey the forum rules. I simply wanted to point out why many Christians don't participate in such arguments and debates. Many Christians rightly feel that if the discussion doesn't honor and profit GOD, they made a mistake by becoming involved. I hope this makes some sense. This in NO way hints that the defense of the Gospel of God's Grace is wrong.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 111:2  The works of the LORD are great, sought out of all them that have pleasure therein.

We werent arguing about any of those topics what are you talking about???  That was totally random.  Big D you never responded to my post so i can only believe that you have no argument and that i am right.  HAHA. VICTORY.

The reason that I did not respond to your post yesterday because after responding to Musicllover, it was time to take a break and watch football.  What I posted yesterday was prior to Sunday School and Church and prior to football after Chruch.

sherk posted:

What I posted previously was not for your benefit; but for Mulicllover's, in response to his questions, and desire to know more about dispensationalism.

Dainel 9 does not specificly say that a peace treaty must be signed PRIOR to the beginning of the Tribulation. It does state that one will be signed and broken in the middle.

I do believe that there will be a peace treaty signed very shortly after the Tribulation is resumed.

If you will SHOW ME from Scripture that Jeol, in 2:28-32 is not speaking of the Tribulation, and/or Peter in Acts 2:15-20 doesn't know where he is in the prophetic time clock, THEN I WILL ADMIT THAT YOU HAVE VICTORY. HAHA

I have requested the above from other, and they still have not shown me what I requested. Even PROMISED to change my views if they did. So, if you wish for me to change my views - SHOW ME

The reasons that I participate in these forum discussions are twofold. It is to learn, to have my knowledge of the Bible broadened, and to express my views as to what I believe the Bible teaches on various subjects.

As I have stated earlier, I am still in the learning mode.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

BigD,
        Sorry to make you work so hard, I thought a simple yes or know might have worked, I printed off your responses and will try to get them read sometime this week. I have classes to attend and I also am in the process of tyring to hook up to an internet business.
     From what I have been able to find on the Act passage, with all the cross referencing Joel is referring the the second coming of Chris, Peter is using that as an example of what those days will be like. Telling on looker this is not drunkeness, this is what the second coming of Christ will be like, Peter is not referring to the rapture, but referring to the after tribulation party... :P. I know you want the black and white of it all. And I will try one of these days, but just to be safe, don't hold your breath waiting on me. Unless of coarse you have GOOOOOOOD lungs. There are far superior teachers on board.
    I do want to commend you on your Godly spirit in learning, so so much better than the nasty stuff that can come up with differences. Lastly, still the rapture before, during or end has nothing to do with ones salvation just one location at some point in the future  ;D. Be at peace.
blessings,
musicllover

musicllover posted:

Don't worry about working to too hard. Happy you gave me the opportunity to post what I did. Hoping others will read it and get a better understanding of us dispies.

With the manifestations of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, Peter is telling them "THIS IS THAT WHICH WAS SPOKEN OF BY THE PROPHET JOEL." Peter NEVER said or implied that these are examples of Christ's 2nd coming.

Peter's understanding of the OT prophetic Scriptures was opened to him by Jesus, prior to his returning to heaven (Luke 24:45). Also, the diciples, including Peter, at Pentecost, were speaking as "the Spirit gave them utterance" (Acts 2:4).

As I have posted earlier, two thing must happen prior to the return of Christ. Jesus must suffer many thing and be rejected by the generation he came to (Luke 17:24, 25) and Israel had to go through the Tribulation. (There are many OT references to that.)

Being Peter understood the OT Scriptures, and the facts that Jesus had already suffered many thing by His people, and the fact the the Tribulation was already in progress, Peter could NOW offer the kingdom to Israel as he did in Acts 3:19-21.

Because Peter understood the OT prophetic scriptures, he knew that the Tribulation would have to run its course before Jesus could return and restore all things mentioned in vs 21. Had Israel repented, as Peter told them in vs 19, that is exactly what would have happened. There would have been no need for this dispensation of grace. The prophetic time clock would have continued to go on.

It is because Israel, as a nation, rejected their King and His Kingdom that God set the nation of Israel aside, and then God stopped the prophetic timeclock, raised up Paul/Saul to usher in this dispensation of Grace, which "was kept secret since the world began." This period in which we live CANNOT be found in prophesy.

The "rapture" just like the "dispensation of grace" cannot be found in prophesy. They are both part of the MYSTERY that was revealed to Paul.

All the OT promises to the Jewish fathers was a King and Kingdom to be and everlasting kingdom upon this earth. Nowhere in Paul's epistles do we find that members of the Body of Christ, the Chruch for this age, are promised any part in the kingdom that was promised to Israel. All the promises to members of the Body of Christ are heavenly.

Our salvation is based upon our right realationship with God/Jesus. Should some of our doctrine be flawed, it will have no bearing on our salvation, however, it could effect our Christian walk which could possibly lead to loss of rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

If the Bible is read and studied literally and in context, this what I believe you will learn.

I understand your need for study and ability to support yourself, so take your time. I am enjoying our dialogure and hope it will continue.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

BigD quote...

 
 My friend. Dan 9 states clearly that there will be seven years from the signing of that treaty. After Jesus was cut off, there is only seven years left. Why can't you understand this my friend? There's no extra time to make up for your extra year. It's actually more than a year if you count the time from Jesus' death up to the stoning of Stephen. It just doesn't fit in with the scriptures time line.

 Bronzesnake

AMEN!! ;D

DreamWeaver and Bronzesnake:

If either one of you can SHOW ME that Joel in Joel 2:28-32 is not speaking of the Tribulation, and/or Peter at Pentecost is in gross error when he said that the Tribulation has started, THEN I WILL BELIEVE YOU!!!!!! HOW MUCH EASIER CAN I MAKE IT FOR YOU. I will believe everything you guys write if you can show me that from Scripture. I WILL SURENDER.

PLEASE print out a verse that says that a treaty MUST BE SIGNED before the Tribulation can begin.

Israel is still in a set aside condition. Israel will not be restored until after the rapture of the church, the Body of Christ. Restored Israel must be present to sign the treaty. When the Church, the Body of Christ is raptured, then Israel will be in the exact place in the timetable of prophesy as she was when she was cut off. They were still under the Law and the Tribulation will have resumed. There was no treaty signed at the time the Tribulation started in Acts 2, and it still will have not been signed when the chruch is raptured.

The time clock of prophesy didn't stop at the crucifiction of Christ but it was stopped when God set Israel aside.

How can the promises to the fathers of Israel be fulfilled when prophesy cannot be fulfilled while Israel is in a set aside condition? Are you saying that the prophetic time clock never stopped?

Looking forward to the response from BOTH of you.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

P.S. Bronzesnake, your book is in the mail. Should be ther if 4-7 days.

The Book of Joel, is a prophetical book yes. The Book of Joel, calls for the people to repent, and for tells the coming of the Holy Spirit.
Joel 2:28,- Concordance to Ezek 39:29, Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.  Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Joel 2:29,- Concordance to Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Joel 2:30,- Concordance to Matt 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (which deals in tribulation.)
Joel 2:31,- Concordance to Is 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. MAL 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Joel 2:32, And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

This is why I mainly ignore you big D. You have a habit of twisting the Bible. When you do this, you confuse people.  :(  Now, look at the concordance to the book of Joel. What do you see?

I will now go back to ignoring you. I don't need the confusion your post make. By the way Big D, this is not an attack on you. I am just being blunt, at the moment.
Bob

Shrek,

This is childish and represents a harsh example of exactly what I was talking about just before this post.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 2:11  For there is no respect of persons with God.

Psalms 19:14  Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

1 Timothy 6:4-6  He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. But godliness with contentment is great gain.

GreenWeaver:
Then allow me to be blunt with you.

I can understand why you won't be back. You HAVE NOT and CANNOT SHOW ME that Joel IS NOT speaking of the Tribulation. However, you do say that it is a prophetic. I ALREADY KNEW THAT." That is not in question.

Peter, at Pentecost is saying that what Joel has prophesied is NOW HAPPENING. PLEASE do one of two things. Call either call Peter a LIAR or agree with him. I will double dog dare you. (Really don't enjoy being this blunt, but feel I must. NOW, it is either put up or shut up.

I have repeatedly stated that if one would show me from Scripture that I was in error, I would change my views. None of you have done that. So how do you expect me to change my views.

Jesus said in Mathew 15:24 "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." At the time that Jesus spoke those words, there was still a "middle wall of partition" between the Jew and Gentile. The Gentiles were considered "unclean," "heathen," "dogs," and "outside the gate. There was no such thing as "The Body of Christ" Jew and Gentile one equal footing, without distinction and not under the Law. Body of Christ was still future revelation.

Joel 2 contains ONLY prophesies that pertain to the nation of Israel. The Body of Christ can't even be found in any OT prophesies.

You cannot find the "Body of Christ" in the Bible until we get to Paul's epistles. In Galatians 2, Paul is only addressing believers that make up the Body of Christ.

The Body of Christ is made of of "the one new man" of Ephesians 2:15. In the Body of Christ there is neither Jew or Gentile. ALL of mankind is NOW on equal footing. That wasn't so in Joel's time.

Forgive me for being so blunt but you started it.

I think that you will find that I have gone to great lengths to present my views.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

BigD,

I think that you and Shrek make the perfect adversaries. Have at it - we'll watch.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

bep:
What you quoted above is what I posted to GreenWeaver. I doubt very much that he will be back either. Why? Because he CAN'T show me what I requested. Evidently he doesn't want me to change my views. As I have often said, I am still in the learning mode.

It will be pretty hard to be an adversary with you because you will not defend what you write. At least sherk and I defend our postions. Is there anything wrong with that?

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

You know BigD you have alot to learn.
First off, I was agreeing with BRNZ., when you attacked me, for agreeing with him.
Second off, It's DreamWeaver or Bob, NOT GreenWeaver.
Thats rather childish isn't it?
3rd off, I am answering a PM, I got to answer you.

I Worldwide rapture of all Christians. 1 Thess. 4:16-17; Rev. 3:10
PLEASE print out a verse that says that a treaty MUST BE SIGNED before the Tribulation can begin.

II Antichrist makes a covenant with Israel, officially beginning the seven-year Tribulation. Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Which is the answer you were looking for.

Two witnesses of Revelation 11 begin their ministry. Rev. 11:3

I think I make it quite clear in my statement, now. K.I.S.S. Keep it so simple.  The Bible was written, by simple men. The Bible should be look at, by those means.

I have tried to explain to you before, on your views. You have choose to ignore me too many times. So why should I try, and make you change your mind now?  

As for learning mode, everyone is in a learning mode. But I will not argue with a dispensatist, you have twisted too many of my words. To where they mean what you want them to mean.

Again, this is not an attack on you.

May God show you his Glory.
Bob

Guess what i dont care.  SAY WHATEVER YOU WANT.  IM HAVING FUN WITH THIS. HA!!!

i totally agree for once with that last comment.  Sry i couldnt respond ive been preoccupado with work and la eschuela.  


Okay im not going to even say anything with the Daniel thing because Bronzesnake basically said it all and it just be repeating.  The fact is Daniel says after the treaty there will tribulation.  He may not come out and say this is the tribulation but since he's mentioning the antichrist we know that that is what he is talking about and along with that he said there will be seven years afterwards.  How many years in the tribulation? 7 not 8 and not 7 and 1 day.  7 years therefore the tribulation couldnt start in Acts when Peter was talking because of course the treaty was not there.  Peter was also saying here this is what happened Joel says that the Holy Spirit will be poured out on believers.  And the wrath for nonbelievers.  Anyway where is the antichrist? I know i asked earlier but i never got a response for the tribulation to occur the antichrist must be present which he is not and there cant be two different antichrists and two different times there is no bibical ref. that can possibly support that idea.  With Joel 2:28-32.  I already told you that 28-29 are bascially what is happening now with the Holy Spirit coming down.  And then 32 happens to do with the believer aka the remnant.  So you cant use the verses to support the tribulation occuring. So lets look at 30,31.  I do believe those are going to occur during the tribulation and will precede the Second Coming.  There is no problem with that as i can see it but the thing to ask is why did Peter say it in Acts.  Peter said it because this marked the last dispensation of grace kinda like what you said earlier or as others put is the God's final act of salvation but the difference between you and me on this thing is that i believe and through different commentaries know that they are talking about an age and Peter is saying that these things will occur at the end of this dispensation he's not refereing to now hes refering to the tribulation which will occur much later after the rapture.    And he says "and they shall prophesy" vs. 18  that just means that you should be ready for it because everyone is letting you know thats it's coming.  Here's a new way of putting it Peter just pushed start on the countdown from now to the tribulation.  I hope this helps eventhough it may be confusing.

DreamWeaver:
THANKS for a more civil reply.

PLEASE forgive me for misspelling your name. Believe me, it was not intentional. I do not know why I typed "Green" instread of "Dream."

My response to you and Bronze at the same time is because in the one word of your response to him ("AMEN)" signafied to me that you were in agreement with every word he wrote and in essance you were saying the same thing.

If you do not want to get involved, then stay out of it entirely. The same goes for blackeyedpeas. When you do get involved, be prepared to defend what you say.

Yes, the "double dog dare" remark was childish. I knew that when I wrote it, and it was on purpose. However, in my youth  it was said if one wanted someone to "put up or shut up." It was issued as a challange. If one did not act on the double dog dare, that one was admitting defeat. You did not accept the double dog dare.

I am well aware of the fact that Daniel 9:27 speaks of the treaty. Nothing in that verse indicates to me that it MUST be signed prior to the Tribulation starting. You are reading that into it.

What I was really looking for is an explanation as to why Peter was in error when he said the Tribulation has started. His statment in Acts 2:16 "But this is that which was spoken by the Prophet Joel:" means exactly what it says. "The last days" are the Tribulation. The signs of those last days were beginning to appear.

I am well aware of Revelation 11:3.

The manner in which I NOW study the Bible is literally and in context. What was written to Israel and the children of Israel is FOR Isreal and the children of Isreal. What is written to members of the Body of Christ is FOR members of the Body of Christ. Members of the Body of Christ are not Jews or "spiritual" Jews.  The children of Israel were under the Law, and the members of the Body of Christ are NOT under the law but GRACE. These are two opposing doctrines. PLEASE CORRECT ME if you feel what I just said is wrong.

PLEASE (I BEG OF YOU) give me a few examples where I "twisted" your words. I will then go back and see how I might have done that.

What is a "dispensatist"? Not familiar with the word. I will admit to be one that is called a "dispensationalist."

What I have just posted, is not an attack upon you, but a response to what you said.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

sherk posted

Let us take a look at exactly Peter said at Pentecost in Acts 2:15-20.

15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day (9 a.m).
16 BUT THIS IS THAT WHICH WAS SPOKEN OF BY THE PROPHET JOES; (Joel 2:28-32).
17 AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE LAST DAYS, saith God, I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visionc, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days ("the last days" that Peter just said were happening in the phrase "BUT THIS IS THAT...) of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneith; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable DAY OF THE LORD come. (The "DAY OF THE LORD" is His 2nd coming., when He returns as The righteous Judge.)

So Peter IS SAYING that the Tribulation has started, the end time signs were now appearing. He quotes all of Joel to point out to his listeners what they still had to look forward to before Jesus returned (Day of the Lord). However, the days that were happen then (the start of the Tribulation), were interrupted with the setting aside of Israel after the stoning of Stephen and the raising up of Saul/Paul.

Why would Peter offer the kingdom to Israel, in Acts 3:19-21, if he wasn't saying the Tribulation wasn't happening? He understood the OT Scripture which said that Jesus must first suffer and that Israel had to go through the Tribulation before the kingdom could be established.

Let me express my views concerning the "anti-Christ." I do believe that at Pentecost, there was a person alive that had all of the qualification of being the anti-christ. Had the Tribulation continued, that person would have been revealed.

It is my contention, and I cannot support this from scripture, that the person who becomes the anti-Christ is one that is very charismatic. That one comes into a position of power and is able to accomplish many things that people believed were impossible. People will begin to look to him as a god. He himself becomes so filled with ego and pride in what he has accomplished that he himself believes that he is God, and starts to act as if he were God.

It is my contention that being the rapture can happen at any moment, there there has always been one that could have filled that bill.

When I look back at the history that I have lived through, there were many past leaders that many church people said that they were the anti-Christ, and tried to prove if from scripture. Hitler and various popes come to mind. There were others also.

If the anti-Christ is alive today, he himself no doubt doesn't know it yet. I do believe that it is very possible for the anti-Christ is already alive.

The dispensation of grace cannot be found in the OT prophesies or in the gospels. Peter in Acts 2 knew nothing about the dispensation of grace. That was not ushered in until AFTER the setting aside of Israel and the raising up of Saul/Paul. It was part of the MYSTERY that was revealed to Paul.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

BigD quote...

 
 I will try one last time my friend.

 Read carefully...


Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 Do you believe the Word of God BigD? It says "he shall"
That means it will happen...what will happen?..."he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week"

 Again - do you believe God's Word or not? Are you able to understand what God is saying in this verse BigD? Are you able to put the clues together BigD?

 Let me help...
There are seven years left from Daniel's 70 weeks...SEVEN - PERIOD! God clearly says that the antichrist WILL sign a peace pact, and that peace deal WILL last for SEVEN YEARS.

 You're trying to tell us that the first year after the peace deal is signed is not Tribulation, but for some bizarre, unknown reason, after that first year Tribulation begins...again! Does that make sense to you my friend?

It doesn't take a genius to figure it out BigD. If there is only SEVEN YEARS left from Daniel's 70 weeks and God says the from the time antichrist signs the deal there WILL be SEVEN YEARS LEFT. Then the peace deal MUST BE SIGNED PRIOR TO THE TRIBULATION STARTING.

 Think hard my friend. Why would God go to the trouble of making the distinction from the prior 490 year periods - to a 483 year period, which corresponds with the death of Jesus?
 This number (483) is different because it marks the time when the clock stops. There are SEVEN years left. The SEVEN years are purposefully numbered out to the last day in Revelation, which corresponds with Daniel's verses pertaining to the antichrist's signing of the SEVEN YEAR peace deal.

 BigD quote...

 
 BigD, please show me the verses in the Bible that describe this antichrist at Pentecost. Also, please point me to the verses which detail that the reason why the "Tribulation" stopped was because this antichrist would have been revealed. If I follow your logic to it's obvious conclusion, then the Tribulation can never begin because if it does, the antichrist will be revealed!  ::)

 This is typical of you my friend. It is pure speculation without any Biblical reference. This is a dangerous practice my friend. I didn't realize the extent of your personal non Biblical "interpretations" I truly believed you were simply not understanding the Bible.

 I've had enough of this. You can not "correct' someone on Biblical doctrine when they have their own doctrine as reference.

Take care BigD. I pray that you will turn your faith to God and His Word exclusively, and turn away from the false interpretations of man.

 By the way... It was a serious breech of protocol going straight to "double dog dare" and completely bypassing "I dare you" It's no better than going from "I dare you"  straight to "I tripple dog dare you" These things must be done in their correct order.

 Please remember this the next time you have a schoolyard exchange!  ;)

 Bronzesnake

Bronze:
I do agree with you that there will be a treaty signed for one week, as the verse you quote states. However, there is nothing in that verse that says that the treaty cannot start until that treaty is signed. I also feel that the treaty wil be signed very soon after the Tribulation which was interrupted resumes.

Further, I don't believe that the Tribulation has to last exactly 7 years. Matthew 24:22 states: "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved, but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened."

How does that fit into Daniel 9:27? So, if those days are shortened, by how much will they be shortened. Now, where is the middle?

I am not quoting man made theories. It is straight from the Bible.

Please study Acts 2:15-20 that I had just posted to sherk. I will copy it for you so you don't have to go back.

Study it and tell me what part is man made interpetations.

From my previous post to sherk:
Let us take a look at exactly Peter said at Pentecost in Acts 2:15-20.

15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. (9 a.m).
16 BUT THIS IS THAT WHICH WAS SPOKEN OF BY THE PROPHET JOES; (Joel 2:28-32).
17 AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE LAST DAYS, (The Tribulation) saith God, I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days ("the last days" that Peter just said were happening in the phrase "BUT THIS IS THAT...) of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth benieth; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable DAY OF THE LORD come. (The "DAY OF THE LORD" is His 2nd coming., when He returns as The righteous Judge.)

So Peter IS SAYING that the Tribulation has started, the end time signs were now appearing. He quotes all of Joel to point out to his listeners what they still had to look forward to before Jesus returned (Day of the Lord). However, the days that were happen then (the start of the Tribulation), were interrupted with the setting aside of Israel after the stoning of Stephen and the raising up of Saul/Paul. Why else would the Tribulation have been interrupted?

Why would Peter offer the kingdom to Israel, in Acts 3:19-21, if he wasn't saying the Tribulation wasn't happening? He understood the OT Scripture which said that Jesus must first suffer and that Israel had to go through the Tribulation before the kingdom could be established."

The Scripture above came straight out of BigD's Bible.

Until you do show, from Scripture, that the above is totally in error, I rest my case.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Big D again my words have been twisted.  
To address a couple things.

Sry about that apparently I cant spell maybe i should type this on Word and use spell check.  I am also a dispensationalist and being one I have to look at what the Hebrew says when Peter says in the last days and the definition is afterwards, later.  Your totally right about some parts of Joel as I said earlier 30,31 are talking about the tribulation im not arguing that with you its the reason why Peter is saying it that we mainly disagree.  So one more time ill say it.  Peter is talking about what to come he quotes Joel for two reasons:  One is because the Jews used the OT so they'd know what he is talking about.  Second he was saying holy spirit is being poured on us like Joel prophesyed and that the Tribulation will be coming soon NOT that the tribulation has begun.  he said "they will prophesy"  Thats future tense meaning that people will begin prophesying the end of days aka as the tribulation meaning that it will happen later and that we should be ready.  He's talking in future tense not present so therefore the tribulation did not start in acts or any time around there.

Israel was set aside long before the stoning of Stephen. This is evidenced in the fact that Israel was no longer a nation. God's taking Israel out of being a nation is punishment and the casting aside...The time when they are  cast aside i believe, is when the Shekinah Glory left the Temple of Solomon around 395-393 b.c. Notice it went from the Temple to the gates, from the gates to the mount of Olives, then from the mount of Olives up into heaven. So thus when God saw that they were not going to pay any attention to the Glory of the Lord, or turn back to Him, He withdrew His presence from the Temple...and it hasn't been there since. Even when Herod's temple was being built, God's Glory did NOT dwell there. Why? Because He had already blinded Israel to the fact that they needed a Savior and had already cast them aside. Why else would God allow the Pharisees and the Sadduccees to rule as a religious order claiming to talk to God. Simply because Israel had already been cast aside. There is no Scriptural evidence to support Israel being cast aside at the stoning of Stephen, i simply do not see it in Scripture anywhere. It had already happened when the Glory of the Lord left the Temple in Jerusalem and the fall of Israel as a nation. I discuss this in further detail with my study on Israel: Still God's Nation or Completely without Hope" Another thing. You need to notice that there IS a gap between the 69th and 70th week. Notice that 69 weeks will occur and they will finish at Christ's Crucifixion. However, it shows that next the "people of the prince" shall come and the city will be destroyed and a flood will come. Many Biblical scholars and Historians will agree that this happened in 70 a.d. So it does show a gap between the 69th and 70th week. The timeline just doesn't line up. You have a gap between the Crucifixion of Christ and the covenant made by Anti-christ. According to what you're saying, the Tribulation started close to Christ's crucifixion and was interrupted...however if you say it was interrupted at Stephen's stoning, again the timeline doesn't line up. Also Peter is using Joel's prophecy as an EXAMPLE as to what was happening. He's not saying that the Tribulation period has occurred. Also, you have to distinguish what Peter is talking about. Is He talking about the Last days in reference to Israel, or the Last days in reference to the Church. Again, where does Stephen's stoning come into play. It seems that you are standing on one set of Scriptures in Acts. That's what it seems to me as the issue with Stephen is concerned. Sorry if my thoughts seem to be scattered. I'm trying to remember word for word what i wrote out last night, seeing as i'm at the library and I don't have my materials with me. Hope this is making any sense...i'll get back to you guys when i have my materials in front of me. God Bless

Joshua

 This is probably not unlike beating a dead horse, but...

 BigD quote...

 If you do not believe God when He says it will last seven years, then I can't help you my friend.

 God has specifically told us that immediately upon the antichrist signing the peace deal there will be seven years PERIOD! He didn't say the MIGHT BE SEVEN YEARS, He said there WILL BE SEVEN YEARS. He even goes to the trouble of actually numbering the days BigD! He even goes further, and actually describes what is happening on earth and in Heaven simultaneously for the entire SEVEN YEAR period!

 Matthew 24:22 isn't going against God's own Word my friend. If that were true, then God is either mistaken, and there really isn't SEVEN YEARS which He said there WAS and IS, or God's a liar...which is it BigD" Matthew 24:22 is referring to the fact that at the end of the seven years Jesus comes to put a quick decisive end to the war...ever heard of Armageddon? If Jesus didn't come back at the end of the seven years to stop the world war (greatest war in history) there would be no one left alive.

 Read Revelation my friend. God says there will be SEVEN YEARS of satan ruling on earth...the final SEVEN YEARS.

BigD quote...

 .

my response...

 .

 BigD reply...


 I can't find this mysterious antichrist in those verses BigD...please point them out for me. Show me exactly where this antichrist figure can be found in the scriptures. Better yet, humble yourself and be honest - admit that it's not really there, and that you had to come up with some kind of explanation to back your false doctrine, because the real Bible verses are in total opposition to your beliefs.

That's about all I can do for you my friend. It's all laid out for you. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink can you?

Bronzesnake

 

sherk:
It wasn't you who spelled "dispensationalist" wrong. It was DreamWeaver.

Joel, in 2:28-32 is speaking in the future tense. Peter is quoting Joel almost word for word. He is using the same tense Joel used because he is quoting him. The time that Joel was speaking of was happening at Pentecost.

Had the Tribulation not been interrupted, those things that Joel spoke of would have ALL been fulfilled.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

BigD,

This is getting more childish by the moment. Just for the record, we will become involved however we wish with total disregard for your agenda or what you may want or not want. We will post what we wish, argue what we wish, and not argue if we wish.  WOW! - you're sounding like a six year old.

Here's a news flash for you. Many of us don't post for the purpose of argument, especially the worst kind of arguments. The worst kinds of argument are for vanity, argument's sake, semantics, and other childish reasons that most mature Christians try to avoid.

However, there is no rule against this. If childish arguments are your cup of tea, drink up. In the meantime, you won't be making any rules that others must join you. Anyone who wishes to can post a message here and feel no obligation at all to involve themselves in a childish argument with you. If someone else wishes to to argue with you, they are most welcome to do so. If they don't wish to argue with you, they are most welcome to do whatever they want to with total disregard for what you want or don't want.

"Double-dog dare".   ;D   What will we hear next?  "Na, na, na, na, na".   ;D

You really shouldn't wonder why many on the forum won't engage in discussions with you. WOW!   ;D  I still love you brother.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Isaiah 30:21  And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.

Bronzesnake

Bronzesnake,

 ;D   ;D  Yes brother, I waded through almost 50 pages of babbling and found nothing but fruitcake, so I deleted the posts.

This fruitcake was all nuts.   ;D

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 27:14  Wait on the LORD: be of good courage, and he shall strengthen thine heart: wait, I say, on the LORD.

 Stop! you're killing me!!  :D ;D

Bronzesnake

You should already be dead, or are you still alive in that flesh of yours? ;) I'm dead...I'm just a Dead man walking :) God Bless

Joshua

this is a great book you have wrote, but its not the truth its just someones view of how they think proficy will be fullfilled and you shouldnt say its the truth :-\ but i assume you mean well and just want people to be prepared,by makeing sure its all good with god ;)

  :D ;D

 [/color][/size][/font]

Bronzesnake

:) took ya long enough...just giving ya a hard time.

Joshua

;D  All I can suggest is more calcium and to stay away from museums.   ;D

If you dont like it dont read it we arent making you.

Jemidon2004 posted

BigD:
Jesus said in Matthew 15:24 "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Paul says in Romans 15:8 "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God to confirm the promises made to the fathers."

The promises to the Jewish fathers were for Israel as a nation.

The Law was given to the nation of Israel. Jesus fulfilled the Law. If Isreal was set aside as far back as you say, there would have been no law to fulfill.
 
Jemidon2004 posted

BigD:
Matthew 23:1 "Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do, but do not after their works; for they say, and do not."

Why would Jesus COMMAND the people and disciples to "observe and do" what the scribes and Pharisees required?

Jemidon2004 posted

BigD:
Back in Genesis 11, at the Tower of Babel, God set the Gentiles aside. Then God raised up a people unto himself (Israel). To Israel God gave them their instructions in righteousness through the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses.

There was a "middle wall of partition" between the Jew and Gentile. If a Gentile one wanted to follow the true and living God, that Gentile one had to become a Jew (proselyte) and place themselves under the Law.

In Matthew 10, we find that Jesus chose His 12 disciples. In vers 5 He commands them "Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not. 6. BUT GO RATHER TO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL.

When Jesus Himself goes only to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel," and commands His disciples to go only to them, it surely doesn't look like Israel is in a "set aside" condition. Looks to me like the Gentiles are still "our side the gate." Jesus Himself refers to the Syrophenician woman (a Gentile) as a "dog."

Paul says of the Jews, in Romans 3:2 "...that unto them were committed the oracles of God." However, they, as a nation, rejected God the Father when they went "about to establish their own righteousness." They rejected God the Son when they demanded that He be crucified. They rejected God the Holy Spirit when they stoned Stephen, in Act 7, who was filled with the Holy Ghost.

It was after Isreal's rejection of the Third Person of the Trinity that God set Israel aside. God then raised up Saul/Paul, in Acts 9, to usher in the the dispensation of grace. Then God shows Peter in Acts 10 that the Gentile is no longer to be considered unclean. Why, because they are now on the same level as the set aside Gentiles. Paul in Romans 11:32 says: "For God hath concluded them all (Jews and Gentiles) in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."

Jemidon2004 posted

BigD:
Daniel 9:24 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finist the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophesy, and to anoint the most Holy."

"upon they people and upon thy holy city," It is upon the Jewish people and upon the city of Jerusalem; "to finish the transgression, and to  make an end of sins." It is the Jewish transgression and their sin of rejection that is to be brought to an end; " and to make reconciliation for iniquity," it is not the crucifixion of Christ that is the reconciliation, but rather the means by which the reconciliation was made. At His glorious appearing, at the end of the 70th week, our Lord, on the basis of His sacrifice at Calvary will "reconcile" his chosen people (Israel) unto Himself. (From the book "REVELATION" for the Advanced Student, by Jack D. Hastings.

The 70th week started at Pentecost (Acts 2:15-20). It was interrupted with the setting aside of Israel after the stoning of Stephen. Being I have posted a great deal on this, I don't thing I have to go through it again.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Yes, I do agree that there will be a tready of 7 years signed in Daniel 9.  However, Jesus Him self said, speaking of the Tribulation, in Matthew 24:22 "...for the elect's sake those days SHALL BE SHORTENED". Its in BigD's BIBLE. What does yours' say?

Is there anything that says that the "mystery anti-Christ" has to be in Acts 15-20. Isn't Peter quoting Joel, and the "mystery anti-Christ" isn't there either. Isn't Joel speaking of the Tribulation? I BELIEVE HE IS! If you don't believe it, PLEASE (I BEG YOU) tell me he isn't. If Peter is not speaking of the Tribulation in Acts 2:15-20, PLEASE (I BEG YOU) tell me he is in error. "THIS IS THAT" means "what is actually happening."

Like you said, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."  I can't even get anyone to explain to me, from Scripture, that Acts 2:15-20 isn't saying that the Tribulation has started. It it wasn't the Tribulation that started, then I am sure Peter would have used some other explanation.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

BigD:
The reason I went to the childish "double dog dare" was because I had repeatedly asked to be shown that Joel, in Joel 2:28-32, and Peter, in Acts 2:15-20 were not speaking of the Tribulation. To that I never received a repy - to those two seperate passages. To this point, I still haven't gotten a proper response to those two passages. THEREFORE the "ddd" was issued. In my youth, I never turned down a "ddd." It was a rare occasion when one was.


BigD
You have surely demonstrated the above already. You are sounding like the kid who owns the ball and won't play unless it is by your rules.

FYI my agenda is to discuss various subjects from Scripture, and express my views as I understand the Bible. My knowledge has been broadened by reading what others write and I will express my views on those subjects when they are in conflict with what I believe. I enjoy discussion those things and do not consider it arguing. We are all free to believe what we wish.

Hope you have noticed that I go through great effort to explain my views and support those views from scripture. I try my best to respond to everything others post. That is not alway the case when others respond to what I have posted. Because of that, there are time I may exhibit frustration. The "ddd" was a good example.


BigD
I have found that many (not all) do not respond to what I have posted because they can't refute what I have written.

The "ddd" doesn't work, so I will probably try and figure out another way of getting my requests answered. Haven't figured out what it may be YET

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

You're right the Promises to the Jewish Fathers were of Israel as a NATION...however Israel was NOT a nation during that time, they were cast aside both spiritually and physically from their former glory as a Nation of God. Even I can see that this happened. First God took away His glory and presence from the temple, then in i believe 387 b.c. King Zedekiah was de-throned, and the kingdom of  Judah ceased to exist. The Kingdom of Israel to the north ceased to exist years before. and the kingdom had split from the united Kingdom of Israel years before that right after Solomon i believe. So it's clear to me that God withdrew His Glory from the temple signifying that God was through with Israel spiritually. Then He allowed the kingdom to cease to exist thus signifying that they were finally cast aside as part of their punishment for dis-obeying God continuously. The Law was given to the NATION of Israel, however, that nation did not exist at that time. It only existed in the minds of those pharisees, scribes, and sadduccees who tried to retain the  Law and the traditions. Jesus was saying to do waht the scribes and pharisees ordered because they were the government during that time. Remember Jesus' words about government. "Render unto Caesar's what is Caesars, and render what is God's unto God" Also if you remember, Jesus rebuked the scribes and the pharisees for their holier than thou attitude and even called them sons of darkness, and children of the devil, even called them vipers. In Matthew 10, Jesus does say go unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel, however the translation is "go unto the lost sheep of the people of Israel" or i.e. the CHILDREN of Israel. Not the Nation of Israel. When Paul says in Romans about the oracles and they set up their own righteousness...He was referring to the Pharisees and the Sanhedrin of whom Paul was once a part of remember. Paul knew all to well the "righteousness" of the pharisical order. They rejected God the Father, as well as God the Holy Spirit when the Spirit of the Lord left Solomon's Temple. The fact that they did NOT go after the Lord is evidence enough that they had rejected Jehovah who is a "Spirit" Again how is it that the 70th week started at Pentacost when the events of the VERY NEXT VERSE AFTER MESSIAH'S DEATH weren't fulfilled until 70 A.D.? Daniel's Prophecy follows a timeline. I don't think that he would jump out of this timeline of the 70 weeks...or include the events of 70 a.d. if Daniel didn't see a gap between the 69th and 70th week. According to you...the 69th and 70th week started almost simultaneously. I've read what you've posted about Stephen's stoneing, and about Pentacost...and my reply to that once again is Peter was using Joel's Prophecy as an example of what was happening during that time. The phrase "THIS IS THAT" translates into "This is like that" meaning this is similar to that of Joel's Prophecy. Peter used Joel's prophecy as an example. I gotta head to class, but i've said all i'm going to say on this subject...because again I don't have my notes in front of me, so I can't copy my notes on Joel's prophecy. Forgive me, however what i said earlier is what I remember from reading and studying the past few nights. God Bless.

Joshua

 My Bible says the exact same thing my friend. However, you have misunderstood the time. To understand exactly when Jesus "shortens time" all you have to do is read the BIBLE - the days are CLEARLY NUMBERED we don't have to guess or assume anything.

 
 Rev 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.  

 1,260 days (3 1/2 years). This concludes the first 3 1/2 years

With the fall of Satan from Heaven and the incarnation of the Antichrist Satan begins his direct assault on mankind. The authority over the Earth and its inhabitants are given to Satan and his forces for 42 months.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.

 forty and two months (3 1/2 years)  Here's the final 3 1/2 years my friend - now deal with it accordingly.


 You just proved that you can not be correct! There is no "antichrist" mentioned in acts - you have admited as much. However, there is an "antichrist" clearly described from the signing of the peace deal. The antichrist is mentioned many times during the seven years of tribulation in Revelation. Therefore, the Tribulation has not started yet.

 Bronzesnake

BigD.
Please read Joel 2 in it's entirety, and tell me when specific events which are chronologically ordered before Joel 2:28, which you believe occurred at acts.

Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for [it is] nigh at hand;    
When did Jesus return? I must have slept through it!  :'(

Joe 2:2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, [even] to the years of many generations.  
This sounds terrible! When did that take place in Acts? ???

Joe 2:3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land [is] as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.  
And when did this happen?

Joe 2:4 The appearance of them [is] as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.  
???

Joe 2:5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.  
Now I would have remembered this! Did this really happen!??

Joe 2:6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.  

Joe 2:7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:  

Joe 2:8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and [when] they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.  

Joe 2:9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.  

Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:  
Now I know this happens in Revelations, but that's during the final seven years after the antichrist signs a peace deal, so...
Just a moment...............Nope, didn't happen, I see the sun!  :D

Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp [is] very great: for [he is] strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD [is] great and very terrible; and who can abide it?  

Joe 2:12 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye [even] to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:  

Joe 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he [is] gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.  

Joe 2:14 Who knoweth [if] he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; [even] a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?  

Joe 2:15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:  

Joe 2:16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.  

Joe 2:17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where [is] their God?  

Joe 2:18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.  

Joe 2:19 Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:  

Joe 2:20 But I will remove far off from you the northern [army], and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.  
Yup, this is right out of Revelations my friend...I guess it happened twice huh?

Joe 2:21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.  

Joe 2:22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.  

Joe 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first [month].  

Joe 2:24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.  

Joe 2:25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.  
It's in Revelation, have a look-see!  :D

 Joe 2:26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.  

Joe 2:27 And ye shall know that I [am] in the midst of Israel, and [that] I [am] the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.  

Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:  
So, this happens AFTERWARDS huh? Must have missed all that other neat stuff I guess.   :'(

Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.  

Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.  

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.  

Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.  

These verses are END TIMES verses my friend. They can all be found in Revelation. Revelation clearly counts out a SEVEN YEAR timeline.

 Paul was referring to Joel in order to explain to unbelievers that the work of Jesus on the cross had set prophecies into motion. He never said the actual Tribulation had begun, and oh, by the way, it will stop and then start again sometime in a couple of thousand years.  ??? ???

 Why wouldn't Paul have specifically warned the people that  the antichrist was among them??? or that the Tribulation had begun??? afterall, God says the Tribulation will be the most terrifying final seven years of our history...funny, Paul didn't seem to notice it, or be concerned enough to mention it to anyone...hmmm

That false doctrine is built solely on simple inference and a total lack of understanding of God's Word. One must ignore many, many verses in order to accept this ambiguous doctrine. God is not ambiguous - He says it and it happens exactly as it is detailed.

Bronzesnake

I would have put it a bit more tactfully, but you got the point across...lol. Sometimes i have a tendancy to be blunt...but i think you had an advantage over me bronze, I think you got your notes in front of you I DON"T!! LOL ROFL Just giving you a hard time. Now, what ya gotta do Bronze, do a word study in the differences in the "Latter days" and the "Last days" in reference to Israel, and the "Last days" in reference to the CHURCH...and you'll find a difference, that may set this mess straight...:) Enjoy!

Joshua

BigD:

In re at least one of your requests, please consider the following.


Dan 8:25
And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify [himself] in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Daniel is here giving an overview of the anti-christ to come, how he shall misrule, and in the words "by peace" is the implicit understanding of some kind of device by which he will be able to deceive his victims into believing that there is peace. Compare this with Pauls words in 1Th 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

It is reasonable to assume that the means by which the people will believe that they are in a condition of peace and safety is that they have been "delivered" from sure destruction by means of a forceful ruler who effects a peaceable end to conflict (historically, some kind of peace treaty).

Dan 9:25
Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times
Dan 9:26
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Here, please note that there appears to be a division...we have the "prince that shall come", indicating an unknown time in the future, and we have "the people of..." that prince. It is not unreasonable to read this as the destruction (...shall destroy the city) is done by a people, or group, that is known...in this case, we know it to be the Romans. BUT...the prince (of that people) that IS to come, is also one endued  by evil powers (satan), and comes at a later time.  After the fall of the Roman empire, this is the main reason for so many believing that there will be a "reconstituted" Roman empire. Many today attribute this characteristic to the EU.

Dan 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate

While many believe that "he shall confirm the covenant" is referring to Messiah, and speaking of the new covenant, such construction is impossible for several reasons. Let's begin with the actual grammatical construction. The "he" is a direct reference to the last named individual, which happens to be "the prince that shall come". Further, to believe that Messiah will be responsible for the "overspreading of abominations" is additionally grammatically, as well as theologically, unsound.  Again, the second "he" in the phrase refers to the immediately preceeding subject, again the "prince that is to come".

Notice also that the "covenant" is a typical ancient way of saying what we today would call "treaty", in this case a peace treaty, referring back to Dan. 8.  This covenant is for one week, which we easily understand to correspond to 7 years in accordance with the rest of Daniel's time periods.  Also, the sentence construction does not lead one to easily believe that this 7 year period is broken in any manner. Rather, it says that in the middle of the week (at 3 1/2 years), he (the prince to come, or anti-christ) breaks the treaty by causing "the sacrifice and ...oblation to cease". Further, he causes desolation "even until the consummation..."

Please note two things. One, that this is a direct cross reference to what Jesus said in both Mat. 24:15 and Mark 13:14 concerning the abomination of desolation. Second, is that at the 3 1/2 year mark, when this prince begins his abomination, that it is carried out "even until the consummation."  Consummation, of course, is properly defined as "the ultimate end, or finish" of something.  The final words add emphasis to this, and also decree what is spoken of by other prophets..."and that determined (by God) shall be poured out upon the desolate."  Compare this with the descriptions of the 21 judgements of God being "poured out upon the earth,", in particular the description of the darkness that is poured out upon the kingdom of the antichrist (Rev. 16:10-11).

Summary:
The antichrist effects a peace treaty (covenant) with Israel at a time of great distress. This treaty is for 7 years (one week), and is the missing, or 70th  week prescribed by Daniel. This period corresponds exactly to the descriptions given of the "Tribulation" period. At the half way mark, after causing abomination in the temple, the "Great Tribulation" phase begins, and corresponds to Jesus' admonition to "flee for the hills."  

Nowhere in Daniel, Mat. 24, or Revelation is there any indication, either directly or indirectly by sentence construction, that the 70th week itself is broken into two separated segments.

Concerning Stephen, we run into some problems also. First, it is believed, but not proven, that he was stoned sometime late in the first year of the Church, or early in the second. This would make his death in 34/35 AD.  The destruction of the Temple was in 70 AD, approx. 35 years later. In no respect does this time period correspond with any of the well-established time calculations given either by Daniel, or by John in Revelation.

Blessings

Bronze:
I have no problem with all of Joel 2 dealing with endtime prophesy.

Joel was a prophet of God. What he writes is futuristic. The events Joel is writing about have not all happened to this day.
Joel knew nothing about the dispensation of the Law being interrupted  and of this dispensation of grace, which was kept secret since the world began, until revealed to the Apostle Paul.

Several of the Old Testament prophets have written about the Tribulation.

John the Baptist in Matt.3:2 preach "Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (about to be set up.)

Matt.4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand (about to be set up).

In Matthew 10:7 Jesus commanded his disciples to preach "The kingdom of heaven is at hand (about to be set up).

Its been over 1900 years now, and the kingdom hasn't been set up yet. So, How could John, Jesus and the 12 preach that? I haven't seen or read about that either.

They could preach that because according to OT prophesy, it was the time for the kingdom to come. The king was here upon the earth. The kingdom program got interrupted because Israel rejected their King and His Kingdom. How could it be established? How could the world be blessed through the Jews as a nation? Those promises are still yet future.

When I do study prophesy, I do not read Paul's epistle's into them. That would be reading future revelation into a past event. You wouldn't read the Laws of Moses into the Garden of Eden, or the battles of WWII into the battles of WWI, so Why read Paul's letters into prophesy or the Gospels?

When Jesus was upon the earth, He followed the Law, and did what the Law required. The Law was in effect until Isreal was set aside. [/b]WOULD YOU PLEASE SHOW ME WHEN WE FIRST KNOW THAT ISRAEL WAS SET ASIDE AND THE LAW MADE OF NONE EFFECT"[/b] According to BigD's Bible, that can be found only in Paul's epiltles. What does your say.

When I study Paul's epistles, I learn that this dispensation of grace is a ("parenthetical") period within the dispensation of grace.

PLEASE (I BEG YOU) tell me if you believe the law will again be ineffect after the rapture of the Chruch. If NO, Why not?

When Peter spoke at Pentecost, there was no such thing known as the Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction and not under the Law. Israel had not yet been set aside, and Paul had not yet been converted. Paul was not converted until AFTER the Tribulation was interrupted. If you study Paul's epistles you will not find that he never offered an earthly kingdom to members of the Body of Christ. He only gives us a heavenly hope.

PLEASE (I BEG YOU) answer these questions for me. Do you agree with me that before the kingdom can be set upon the earth that That Jesus had to suffer and that Israel had to go through the Tribulation. I have pointed out earlier that these two thing must happen before the kingdom could be established; so I won't do it again now.

Do you believe that Peter is offering the kingdom to his listeners in Acts 3:19-21? I do. If you don't, will you PLEASE explain why not. And if he wasn't, what was he offering.

Do you believe that at the time of Pentecost that Peter understood all the OT Scriptures and knew exactly where he was in the timetable of prophesy? (Luke 24:45)

Do you believe that Peter was speaking "as the Spirit gave him utterance? (Acts 2:4)

If you will respond to what I requested above, I will have a much better grasp of what you actually believe.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Amen evangelist. I agree wholeheartedly with what you wrote. I can't put it in any simpler way, and I've tried...lol. Good work brother. God Bless

Joshua

Bronze, i'll let you respond to that one since it was related to you, so i think i'm going to step out since BigD continues to beg. I never did like it when someone begs. So i'm going to step out and watch the discussion...as i feel it may be drawing to a close, because it seems that we are discussing in circles...lol. Someone's gotta break the circle, It won't be me unless i can finally get some time at home where i can get out my materials, and type them up on here. I just despise it when I have to go somewhere and reply without my materials..lol. I guess i can't take my library everywhere now can I...lol. God Bless

Joshua

Evangelist:
One cannot compare the book of Daniel to the book of Thessalonians unless your are trying to show the difference between PROPHESY and MYSTERY

Daniel has to do with the prophetic program to Isreal and which Jesus came to fulfill at His coming (Romans 15:8). It pertained to things which were spoken of "since the world began."

Thessalonians has to do with what was revealed to the Apostle Paul for members of the Body of Christ, and "was kept secret since the world began. .

So is no connection between Daniel and Thessalonians. One cannot find the rapture or the Body of Christ in the prophetic Scriptures.

Paul, in 1Cor15:51-52 explains the rapture as a "MYSTERY" (secret).

In 1Thess.4:13-18 is speaking to believers and  explains the rapture.

In 5:1 Paul assures them "But the times and the seasons brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2. For yourselves know prefectly well that the day of the Lord so commeth as a thief in the night. (They will have been raptured [taken out]).
3 For when they (unbelievers) shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction commeth upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. (They will have to go through the Tribulation and Great Tribulation.)
>SNIP<
9. For God hath not appointed us to wrath (the Tribulation) but to obtain salvation (from the Tribuation) by our Lord Jesus Christ.

As I have suggested to Bronze, don't read future revelations into past events.

The PROPHETIC program that Jesus came to fulfill is entirely different from the MYSTERY program that was revealed to Paul. Don't mix them.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Jemidon2004:
I have been begging because requesting was getting me no where. I'm sure you noticed that I have even resorted to the "ddd". That really hasn't helped either.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Sorry man, i'm not one for beggers. However I did see you resort to the ddd...and i found it distasteful however I didn't comment on it because I didn't feel it was my place to comment on something as childish as that. But please, don't lower yourself to begging, it doesn't become you...you're too stubborn to do that. GB

Joshua

One cannot compare the book of Daniel to the book of Thessalonians unless your are trying to show the difference between PROPHESY and MYSTERY

Daniel has to do with the prophetic program to Isreal and which Jesus came to fulfill at His coming (Romans 15:8). It pertained to things which were spoken of "since the world began."

Thessalonians has to do with what was revealed to the Apostle Paul for members of the Body of Christ, and "was kept secret since the world began. .

So is no connection between Daniel and Thessalonians. One cannot find the rapture or the Body of Christ in the prophetic Scriptures.

Paul, in 1Cor15:51-52 explains the rapture as a "MYSTERY" (secret).

In 1Thess.4:13-18 is speaking to believers and  explains the rapture.

In 5:1 Paul assures them "But the times and the seasons brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2. For yourselves know prefectly well that the day of the Lord so commeth as a thief in the night. (They will have been raptured [taken out]).
3 For when they (unbelievers) shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction commeth upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. (They will have to go through the Tribulation and Great Tribulation.)
>SNIP<
9. For God hath not appointed us to wrath (the Tribulation) but to obtain salvation (from the Tribuation) by our Lord Jesus Christ.

As I have suggested to Bronze, don't read future revelations into past events.

The PROPHETIC program that Jesus came to fulfill is entirely different from the MYSTERY program that was revealed to Paul. Don't mix them.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

2Ti 3:16
All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works

First, BigD...you said:

Technically, you're correct. Daniel 9 doesn't say that....but 2 Thess does. 2Th 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Tell me, in your separation of things, is not Paul here speaking of the same person Daniel is? Or is Paul revealing someone new, never before known?  When Paul is speaking of "that day", what day is he talking about? Isn't he referring to "that day of Christ"? And exactly what is that day of Christ? Is it not the harpadzo?  And if it is the harpadzo, and that can't happen until there is apostasy AND the man of sin is revealed, is there not a correlation to be made between this character and the one told of by Daniel....AND Jesus?

FWIW BigD, don't go overboard trying to separate and render meaningless the interlocking roles (and words spoken) played by ALL the characters of the bible.  Such compartmentalization means simply that the Word is then NOT rightly divided....but is chopped up into separate rooms that certainly DON'T fit together..."a building fitly framed."

I'm done here.

 This reminds me of my discussions with the J.W.'s - They believe their bible the NWT is not a mistranslation of the original biblical manuscripts (which it is) they believe it's merely a modern English translation of the KJV version. ::) I have challenged them on many occasions to compare their bible against any of the twenty plus thousand original biblical manuscripts which are easily available through the Internet. These original Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic etc have all been cross referenced against each other and have been found to be almost verbatim from the oldest known copies of the scriptures, including the Dead Sea Scrolls. Our KJV is found to be about 98% pure also. The only discrepancies are when there are no comparable words to be found in the translated language, and even then, there is never any example of Biblical doctrine which is changed even in the slightest.

 The same can not be said of the NWT translation. That bible is a sham. The translation team which put that fairy tale book together could not even translate the simplest Greek or Hebrew into English when challenged to do so in a Scottish court.

 The J.W.'s completely ignore these facts and blindly continue to repeat their mantra like mindless automatons. Same goes for this doctrine. So much contradictory evidence has been provided from the scriptures and yet this is simply ignored while the dogmatic mantra is regurgatated, as though it will be made true if it is repeated enough times.

 God luck to you BigD my brother, and may God bless you. I look forward to reading the book you sent, so I can get some kind of idea of where you are going so wrong.

Bronzesnake

Part 1



BigD:
Believe those verses with all my heart.

Also, Paul wrote to Timothy saying: "Study to sew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."


BigD:
Paul is speaking of the same person as Daniel. Further, "that day" Paul is speaking of is the Tribulation. The context of "that day of Christ" is the return of Christ. However, I do believe it would have been better translated "That day of the Lord," (Isaiah 2:12) meaning the Tribulation which ends in the return of Christ.

Even though I have a "Key Word" study Bible, which has the Hebrew/Greek Dictionary and Lexical, I cannot find a word in the verses you mentioned that derive from "harpadzo", so I will not comment on that.

For the full meaning of verse 3, I will copy for the book by Pastor C.R.Stam in his comentary on the books of Tessalonians. (I will leave out the footnotes.)

Chapter II - II Thessalonians 2:1-3

FIRST THE DEPARTURE

AN APPEAL TO THE FALTERING

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, theson of perdition." II Thes. 2:1-3

LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU BY ANY MEANS

The Apostle's appeal to the Thessalonian saints not to be "shaken," or “troubled," or "deceived. . . by any means," is based upon the truth of the Rapture.

It was “by" or on the basis of “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and48 our gathering together unto Him," that he begged them not to falter.

This was their "blessed hope," and he besought them not to let any man take it from them either “by spirit" (i.e., the supposed gift of prophecy), or “by word" (i.e., argument) or “by letter as from us” (Ver. 2).

Of all the strong evidences in the Thessalonian epistles that the rapture of believers to be with Christ will precede the Tribulation, the opening verses of II Thes. 2 are certainly the strongest.

NOT ONE SCRIPTURE?

One Bible teacher has declared that "there is not one verse of Scripture which explicitly affirms the rapture of the Church before the Tribulation. But why need there be? There is "not one verse of Scripture which explicitly affirms" that our Lord was baptized before His temptation by the devil, or that He was crowned with thorns before He was crucified, or that baptism with water is no longer included in God's program for believers, or that God is a Trinity. Yet there is abundant Scriptural proof for all these, and the brother referred to above accepts them all as the truth of the Word of God.

Some time ago one of the author's "post-trib." friends wrote to him:

"The great tribulation is not pleasant to anticipate -- this is a fact (Dan. 12:1; Matt. 24:21,22). But in the light of [a series of Scripture passages] I know by God's grace and strength I can endure the greatest torture or the most gruesome death. Perhaps, brother, I will be called upon one day to prove myword. God only knows. I can rest only in Him (II Tim. 1:7). Paul went through much, as did many first-century Christians. To those individuals, tortured and killed, the pain they suffered could not be any worse than the saints will suffer as individuals in the great tribulation. Praise God for our great and glorious hope, I Tim. 1:1."

How sad this is in view of the following three facts:

1. Paul, in speaking of the Rapture never says one word to prepare the saints for the horrors of the Tribulation. We may be certain that he would have done so if they were to endure its terrors before being caught up to be with Christ.

2. Our Lord, in speaking to His "kingdom" followers did say much to them about the coming Tribulation, but not one word about their being "caught up" to meet Him in the air.

3. Thus, the rapture of believers to be with Christ, is distinctively the hope of the Body of Christ, for which Paul repeatedly urges us to be "looking" and "waiting," encouraging one another in the anticipation of this “blessed hope" (Tit. 2:13).

But wait! There is indeed one blessed passage of Scripture which "explicitly affirms" that the Rapture will precede the Tribulation. It is II Thes. 2:3.

Our respect and admiration for the King James Version grows more profound each year. We believe that KJV stands head and shoulders above all other English translations, and perhaps above all other translations in any language. It is in the truest sense a faithful translation. Also, we believe that God has graciously preserved the Greek Scriptures for us in Textus Receptus, the Received Text of the New Testament, rightly called the Majority Text, the text upon which KJV is substantially based.

Yet here is a case where the KJV translators departed from Textus Receptus, for TR does not contain the words "a falling away" in II Thes. 2:3, but the words "the departure," Gr., hee apostasia. Thus the verse actually reads:

"Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come except the departure come first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."

There is abundant evidence for this rendering, as we shall now proceed to prove.

continued in Part 2

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Part 2:

"Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come except the departure come first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."

There is abundant evidence for this rendering, as we shall now proceed to prove.

APOSTASIA AND APOSTASY

First, our English word apostasy, is not an exact equivalent of the Greek apostasia. The English word apostasy means rebellion, or revolt, against a faith once embraced, but the Greek apostasia means departure, nothing more.

Actually the Greek noun apostasia occurs only once more in the New Testament, namely in Acts 21:21, where Paul is informed of the report that he has taught "all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses."

We suggest that even here the word "depart" would be a closer synonym to the rendering "forsake" than would the word "apostatize." To forsake is not exactly to revolt or rebel against, and this is what our English word apostasy means. Furthermore, in this case we are told that it was reported that Paul urged these Jews to "forsake," or "depart from" Moses, and surely Paul did not urge them toany revolt against Moses or his writings. He merely pointed out that now, by grace,they were free from the Law, that the Law had been fulfilled for them by Christ.

In any case, the Record does not say that Paul had taught the Jews who lived among the Gentiles to "forsake" Moses. It says only that the Jews in Judaea had been "informed" that this was the case. This rumor was probably an exaggeration of what he actually had done in teaching that the Law had now been fulfilled by Christ and that believers are delivered from its curse (Gal. 3:13).

But while the noun apostasia occurs only twice in the New Testament, the root verb from which the noun is derived occurs 15 times, and its meaning is easy to determine. We refer to the verb aphisteemi. So that there may be no mistake, we present here a list of every New Testament use of this verb.

Luke 2:37: "departed not from the temple."

Luke 4:13: "the devil…departed from Him."

Luke 8:13: "in time of temptation fall away."

Luke 13:27: "Depart from Me, all ye workers of iniquity."

Acts 5:37: "drew away much people after him."

Acts 5:38: "refrain from these men."

Acts 12:10: "the angel departed from him."

Acts 15:38: "who departed from them from Pamphilia."

Acts 19:9: "he departed from them."

Acts 22:29: "they departed from him."

II Cor. 12:8:"I besought the Lord... that it might depart from me."

I Tim. 4: 1: "some shall depart from the faith."

I Tim. 6:5: "from such withdraw thyself."

II Tim. 2:19: "depart from iniquity."

Heb. 3:12: "in departing from the living God."

First, the reader should observe carefully that in 11 out of these 15 occurrences the verb in question is rendered depart, departed, or departing, while in the other four close synonyms are used.

Further, only three out of the 15 are concerned with departure from the truth. And in all three it is clearly stated that the departure is "from the faith" (I Tim. 4:1), "from the living God" (Heb. 3:12), and from that which was "for a while believed"

(Luke 8:13), leaving the meaning of the verb aphisteemi itself simply depart -- nothing more -- in all 15 occurrences.

In Luke 4:13 we read that the devil “departed' from Christ. In Acts 12:10 an angel "departs" from Peter. In Acts 15:38 we read that a man had "departed" from Paul and Barnabas. In II Cor. 12:8 we read of Paul's thrice-repeated prayer that a thorn might "depart," or be removed, from his flesh. And so with all the others. Indeed, in two of the 15 cases above the very opposite of apostasy or departure from the truth is involved. In I Tim. 6:5 Timothy is told to depart ("withdraw thyself") from men who are "destitute of the truth," while in II Tim. 2:19 all who "name the name of Christ" are exhorted to "depart from iniquity." Surely these were not instructions to apostatize.

Thus, bear it well in mind, aphisteemi, the root verb of the Greek apostasia, means to depart -- nothing more. Later on we will discuss the particular "departure" referred to in II Thes. 2:3, but first the rendering "a falling away," as compared with "the departure," must be further discussed.

THE AUTHORIZED VERSION AND ITS PREDECESSORS >(SNIP)<

WHAT DEPARTURE? No "falling away" or "apostasy" had been previously mentioned in either epistle, but in the whole of I Thessalonians and also of II Thessalonians up to this point, the Apostle's very theme had been the rapture of the members of the Body of Christ. Thus here in II Thes. 2:3 he must be referring to "the departure" of the Church to be with Christ. This falls naturally into place with the whole context, for why should Paul exhort these believers not to be "shaken" or "troubled," merely because the apostasy must precede the Tribulation? This would be no comfort. Further, how could they recognize "the" apostasy, much less "a" falling away when

CONCLUSION

1. The word apostasia and its root verb aphisteemi, do not, used by themselves, mean “apostasy" and “apostatize." They mean “departure" and “depart," nothing more.

2. II Thes. 2:3 states in the Greek, that the day of the Lord will not come “except the departure come first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."

3. The term “the departure," with the definite article, denotes previous reference.

4. Paul had written to the Thessalonians in his previous letter about the departure of the members of Christ's Body from this earth (I Thes. 4:16,17) and had even disassociated this from the prophesied “day of the Lord" with the use of the word, “But" in I Thes. 5:1. He had also referred to this “departure" in the phrase ”our gathering together unto Him," in II Thes. 2:1. Indeed, this was the basis for his appeal to the Thessalonians not to be “shaken" or “troubled" by those who would lead them to believe that “the day of the Lord" had already begun. Also, he had “told" them about “these things" while he was yet with them (II Thes. 2:5).

5. “The man of sin" must also be manifested before the “day of the Lord" can come (II Thes. 2:3,4)52 and he cannot be manifested until “the departure" takes place “first."

6. Thus, in addition to many clear proofs that the rapture of the Body will precede the Tribulation we also have a passage which “explicitly affirms" this.

“WHEREFORE COMFORT ONE ANOTHER…” (I Thes. 4:18).

“BE NOT SOON SHAKEN IN MIND, OR… TROUBLED…” (II Thes. 2:2).

“LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU BY ANY MEANS…” (II Thes. 2:3).


BigD:
If you mean by "compartmentalize" that I make a distinction bewtween the promises and the innstructions in righteousness,  that God gave to Moses for the children of Israel, through the Law, and the promises and instructions in righteousness to members of the Body of Christ that God gave to Paul through the preaching of "the gospel of the GRACE of God, and the revelation of "the MYSTERY, then I am guilty. That is what I call "rightly dividing the word of truth."

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Much and Love The Lord!

BigD:
I WILL MISS YOU MY FIREND

Can't believe that you are comparing my KJV with the Bible with that of the NWT version. Just wondering if you are using something different or that was that just a "straw dummy."

God Bless my friend.

Enjoy the book, and I hope you will e-mail me your comments on it. Would really like to know.

Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Jemidon2004

If your saying that God set the nation of Israel aside way back in the OT times, that would put the Jew and Gentile on equal footing way back then. There wouldn't be a distinction or "middle wall of partition" between them. The Gentiles were "set aside" back in Genesis 11, at the Tower of Bable.

It my deduction above is true, then I must ask: Why did God send Jesus "to the lost sheep of the house (nation) of Isreal?" There were only Jews and proselytes present at Pentecost (Acts 2:10) when God sent the Holy Ghost?

Further, in the OT times, for a Gentile to serve the true and living God, that Gentile had to become a Jew and place themselves under the Laws of Moses. Why would that be if God had set the nation of Israel aside.

Also, when Christ came to earth to start His earthly ministry, Why would he instruct His disciples to go only "to the lost sheep of the house (nation) of Israel? Were those "set aside" Jews better the the "set aside" Gentiles?

Why did it take so long for us to learn what Paul says in Ephesians 2:11-13?

I would appreciate it if you would explain some of my questions to that I can better understand your view.

Being you don't like beggers, PLEASE do not consider this begging.

You posted:

BigD
We Dutchmen are better know to be "hard headed." As the old saying goes: "You will never hurt a dutchman by hitting him on the head."

By nature, I am not a begger. If fact, most people that know me consider me "real easy going." Also, I am not know for being a "quitter" or "one that backs down." Those charactoristics were probably developed from my life experiences.

Coming out of the "depression" (early 30's). and from a large poor family (11 of us), we had to strive (work) for everything we got. At time we even had to fight to keep what little we had.

As a youn man, I fought in the "Golden Gloves, and then, a few years later, I went into the Army. Served there for 23 years. Started out as a machine gunner during the Korean War and also served twice in Viet Nam. Two movies were made from action that I was actively participated in.

As a boxer and military man I learned that the best offense is the best defense. Also, I discovered that there are times when one must do things that are not desirable in order to accomplish one's goals, even if we do not like or normally do them. That is the reason I tried the "ddd." Do I like to "beg?" NO!!! However, I tried that in hopes of getting desired results.

Even the Apostle Paul said, words to the effect, that he would do almost eanything if only he could win just a few. He became what ever it took to do that.

Think of me what you will, but at least you know where I am coming from.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Maybe the results you desire, are right in front of you, then again maybe they are invisible to you. Such is God's way of dealings. I made the earlier statement on the DDD, because I did find it distasteful, however, I don't think any less of you. I've seen enough of your posts to kknow that you are pretty easygoing. As am I. However, resorting to a ddd for the sake of something you desire really surprised me. You are right, sometimes things are done to reach our desired goals...however if we don't wait for God, we'll end up screwing things up, which is why i'm stepping out of the discussion and only watching, because I have contributed what the Lord wishes me to contribute. i feel no point contributing to this thread anymore because, I have said what the Lord wanted me to say. I feel that in my spirit, so no, i will not answer your questions until the Lord prompts me to do so. God Bless

Joshua

Jemidon2004:
Sometimes I feel like the Ethiopian eunuch, in Acts 8, when Philip asked him if he understood what he was reading. His reply was: "How can I except some man should guide me?"

Guess there just isn't anyone around anymore to look to for guidance from Scripture.

As you wish.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 Why am I not surprised that you completely misunderstood what I  was actually saying...Please my friend, read it again. I plainly said that the NWT was a sham - I also clearly stated that the KJV was virtually pure when compared to the earliest ancient biblical manuscripts.

 I was making a statement about people who blindly follow false doctrine, even when the scriptures are clearly opposed to it.

 Take care my brother...

 Bronzesnake

Bronze:
Oh, I understood your comments about the JW's alright. The reason I said what I did was because, if you will recall, after something I had posted that did come from my Bible and you disagreed with, your made the comment: "That came straight from BigD's Bible." As if I was using I were using a corrupt Bible.

Its no biggie.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Hey, people—check THIS out!

  (http://worldnetdaily.com/images/lindsey_title.gif)
(http://worldnetdaily.com/images/Lindsey.jpg)
(http://worldnetdaily.com/images/header_exclu_comm.gif)
Assessing Current Events

When I sit back and take a good, hard look current events, I marvel that anyone could miss the signs of Jesus Christ's soon coming. We live in a world where the United States is considered socially backward because it takes issue with the idea of homosexual marriage.

It is a world in which a Catholic archbishop can cause headlines by referring to homosexuality as "epidemic."

It is a world where people find no contradiction in demanding that everybody else conform to their narrow views because the view of the majority makes them feel like outsiders.

A world in which the prevailing legal view is that there is a "God-given right" for the God-haters to not be offended by the mention of "God" in public.

A Houston, Texas judge ruled that a Bible in a courthouse might give the impression Houston's Harris County has a preference for Christianity. A Bible in a courthouse! Is he kidding?

Up seems to be down and black seems to be white. For the first time in the history of mankind, the main topic of debate is over a question no previous generation would even entertain. The question baffling this generation is not "where did I come from?" or, "Is there an afterlife?" That doesn't seem to be as important as whether marriage should be between a man and a woman.

Meanwhile, the Earth itself seems to be in rebellion. The Asian mega-quake that changed geography caused the planet to vibrate like a tuning fork. It knocked the planet far enough off its axis to momentarily change time – and this may only be the beginning.

There are warnings of a sudden shift in the Earth's poles, a reversal of the Earth's magnetic fields and the fear of the onset of a new Ice Age.

Environmentalists warn that global warming will raise the world's sea levels, resulting the catastrophic flooding and loss of life. Many scientists warn that the shift of mass from the concentration of solid ice caps due to melting and being distributed in the oceans could further exacerbate the Earth's wobbling axis.

Meanwhile, the sun continues to convulse, sending out massive showers of debris into the solar system, while irradiating the Earth with unprecedented doses of solar radiation. It is, according to some prominent Russian scientists, the most active period of solar activity in 8,000 years.

The past year broke all the records in terms of natural disasters. This year began with earthquakes, floods, unseasonably cold weather in some places, unseasonably warm in others, and nobody seems to be able to explain what is going on.

The economy is at once both robust and growing and teetering on the edge of catastrophe. Economists warn that it would take just one push in the right direction at the right time for the whole house of cards to come collapsing around our ears.

Meanwhile, NASA just spent hundreds of millions to launch a spacecraft designed to impact with a comet in deep space to see if it is possible to deflect a killer asteroid. Does anyone else beside me feel like he is in a Stephen King movie?

The Bible prophets describes the last days as a period of ever-increasing wars and natural disasters. Jesus, Himself, predicted that there would be wars and rumors of wars, great earthquakes, plagues of deadly diseases, cataclysmic weather changes and famine just before His return. He likened all these things to birth pangs. He said that as the time approached, they would increase in both frequency and intensity.

He spoke of signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars. He warned of the distress of nations, saying things would grow so frightening that men's hearts would fail them for fear, just in looking at what is coming.

But all these terrors are just the beginning of a period of catastrophe and death so profound that Jesus, Himself, said no time in history has ever been like it before – nor ever will be again.

Amidst all the fear and uncertainty, however, Jesus promised great hope. He said that, just before the beginning of the 7-year period, He would come again and receive to Himself all those who put their faith in Him and receive the gift of pardon He paid for with His own blood.

We see the shadows of predicted events that tell us the time known as the Tribulation Period is almost upon us. To those who understand the prophecy of the Bible that means time is extremely short. Do not put off receiving the gift of pardon that Jesus purchased for you and put your name on it. Don't get left behind. The consequences of that will be beyond anything you can imagine.

i guess no double dares on that..
nuk nuk ;D

Give it a few days...you may get one, you may not...what we see in the future is often what we read of in the past...the phrase "history repeats itself" fits good here...however I pray that it doesn't. God Bless

Joshua

Brothers and Sisters,

I would agree quickly that there are a host of events that appear to indicate either a preview of the end times of this age or the actual unfolding of Bible prophecy before our very eyes right now. Many would laugh and call anyone who had these thoughts as another dooms day lunatic. However, we don't have any date setters here, but we do have quite a few who study Bible prophecy. Very few Christians dismiss Bible prophecies as tales, and it is getting harder by the day to ignore all of the things that are happening in the world each day. The lost just laugh, but Christians are beginning to pay attention to Bible prophecies.

Regardless of Bible prophecy, every Christian should have a burning desire to witness to the lost and yield to JESUS for HIS use. If one wanted to dismiss the daily things happening in the world, it would still be time to witness and yield with every day GOD gives us. I would ask every Christian to feel an urgency in this matter, regardless of what you feel about Bible prophecy. If you have a burden on your heart for a lost family member, a friend, or people you don't even know, act on that burden. Pray each time before you do that God guides and directs your words and efforts. End times or not, JESUS has work for each of us to do every day.

My personal thoughts are that the end times are either near or upon us. It will be a great day of rejoicing when JESUS comes for us. In the meantime, we can KEEP LOOKING UP! and yield to HIS Will.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 19:14  Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

Couldn't help it...this is an ad I've been running based on a series from the paper.

(http://www.john812.com/img/whatsnext.jpg)

Surprisingly  ::)  there's not too many that want to hear about it!

Evangelist,

My Brother, stand fast and keep up the good fight. There will be many sweet Christians praying for your ministry.

We know what the Holy Bible says about itching ears and the refusal of many to endure sound doctrine. Brother, please remember there are still many who love the things of the LORD and HIS WORD. You are an instrument for HIS USE, and HIS WORK through you will never go to waste.

Brother, I simply pray that God will continue to use you to strengthen HIS children and show the lost a path to JESUS. Brother, your path will be difficult if you do HIS WILL.

Dear LORD, we ask for strength and guidance to do Your Will every day that you give us to serve You. LORD, only You can overcome our adversaries, and we know that You Will at Your appointed time. LORD, until then, we ask for courage, strength, and Your Grace to stand for You and keep standing with every day You give us in this short life. We ask these things in the precious name of JESUS, our Lord and Saviour forever.  Amen

Love In Christ,
Tom

Jude 1:3  Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

When I died ,I saw the city heading here .it was in some other spacve .As there were no stars .But too ,that was in 1976 ,but I look for it everyday .Thinking today ,may be the day .But I believe it must be close .And I plan on leaving ,when it gets here .Also I plan to spend the 7 years recieving my job to rule with HIm .Get my new name and new body .And my crown .And plan on seeing you [people there .meet my brothers and sisters from old .And do a lot of singing .I hope my body comes with some good voice sounds .As all I can do now ?is make a joyful noise .

It is my contention that in this dispensation of grace, there are no OT "end time" prophesies being fulfilled. However, I do believe that events happening in this dispensation are leading to the fulfillment of OT "ent time" prophesies.

Being this dispensation cannot be found in prophesy, there are no prophesies that are foretold for this period.

Paul in his second letter to Timothy does speak "last days" in chapter 3:1-9. This, I do not believe is referring to the "last days" of OT prophesies, but the last days of this dispensation of grace.

My basis for contending that is based upon 1Thess.5:1-9.

In 2Thess.2:2, it appears that Paul is writing to the Thessalonians because of a letter, or letters, had actually been forged to make it appear that he (Paul) believed that the Rapture would follow the Tribulation. But we know Paul is speaking of the rapture because in vers 1 he says: "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ; and by our gathering together unto Him" (the rapture) in verse 1.

Many believe, as I do, that Paul expected to be raptured in his lifetime. In verse 9 he says "the mystery of iniquity doth already work, but is under restrain (ver. 7).

Also, it is my contention that the restrainer is the Church, the Body of Christ. Presently the Holy Spirit dwells and operates in the bdy of all believers. Once the Chruch is raptured, The Holy Spirit will still remain in the earth to draw others during the Tribulation, but the Holy Spirits operation through the Church will no longer exist.

I am in complete agreement with BEP and Evangelist that we should be constantly laboring to win others. As Paul says in Ephesians 5:14 "Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
15 See then that ye walk circumpectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is."

If one thinks that the bad things are happening today, and there are, they are minor when compared to what will happen during the Great Tribulation.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

BIG D

I GUESS I'M ALONE ON THIS BUT I HAVE A TOUGH TIME FOLLOWING YOUR THOUGHTS. BUT I LIKE YOUR HUMOR.
I DONT UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN :-\

    OH WELL I HOPE ITS NOT INPORTANT OR I'M SCREWED ;D

BUTCHA:
Just what is it you don't underdstand? I believe the entire Bible. When I study it I take what it says literally and in the context in which it is written. It is not too difficult to figure out when figurative language is used.

If I were to put myself in a specific catagory, as man likes to do, the I am considered a non-denominationalist and an Acts 9/mid-Acts dispensationalist.

Willing to answer any questions you may have.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!