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Our Lord Jesus Christ loves you.
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Poll
Question: What do you believe the Rapture will occur?
Pre-Trib - 16 (88.9%)
Mid-Trib - 1 (5.6%)
Post-Trib - 1 (5.6%)
Partial Rapture - 0 (0%)
Pre-wrath(5th trumpet) - 0 (0%)
Total Voters: 14

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Author Topic: Rapture  (Read 16584 times)
BigD
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« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2005, 12:02:18 PM »

shrekandogre
THANK YOU for your reply.
You posted:
"Big D...you addressed none of my points like what about the wrath of God aka tribuliation and us be excempted and what about the imminence of the Lord's Return, mid-trib isnt possible because you dont have this imminence because you know when he's comes becuase the Tribulation will begin, and what about the Church not being mentioned in the Tribulation at all in Rev. 4-19.  As well as Rev 3:10.  Joel 2:29-30 are not signs of the tribulation its talking about us recieving the Holy Spirit.  How do you know for sure that the "in the last days"  that Peter talks about isnt the last days of Jesus on this Earth.  Along with and its not Isreal that must go through it its every nonbeliever after the Rapture occurs."

BigD responds:
Well, I do agree with you that the Chruch, the Body of Christ will not go through the Tribulation, as per the references you posted.

When the Tribulation started in Acts the Chruch, the Body of Christ was not yet formed and was still future revelation to the Apostel Paul.

Peter at Pentecost quoted ALL of Joel 2:28-32. You only want to read verses 29, 30.

I know that the "last days" that Peter is talking about is the Tribulation because Peter is quoting vs 31, of Joel 2, which Joel identifies as "that great and terrible day of the Lord," the Tribulation.

Being the Church, the Body of Christ, wasn't formed until Israel was set aside, and the Tribulation interrupted, it did not go through any part of the Tribulation that started in Acts 2:15-20.

This dispensation of grace that was ushered in with the raising up of the Apostle Paul cannot be found in prophesy. It WAS KEPT SECRET SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN."

This present dispensation of grace will end with the rapture of the Church. It WILL NOT to through the Tribulation. I DO NOT believe in a mid-trib rapture.

Jesus will not return until the end of the Tribulation and when He does return, it will be as a Righteous Judge. Yes, all unbelievers that are not raptured will go through the Tribulation period.

Just want to summerize that I am saying that the Chruch, the Body of Christ, did not go through any part of the Tribulation that started in Acts 2:15-20 and interrupted with the setting aside of Israell. (It was still future revelation.) After the Chruch, the Body of Christ, is raptured, it will not go through any part of the Tribulation when it resumes AFTER the rapture. Therefore I/we can say the Chruch, the Body of Christ will not go through the Tribulation.

Hope this gives you a cleared picture of what I believe.

If you believe what I have posted is in error, I would GREATLY APPRECIATE you showing me my  error. I am still in the learning mode.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

« Last Edit: January 20, 2005, 12:04:48 PM by BigD » Logged
Bronzesnake
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« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2005, 12:30:17 PM »

Happy Birthday you young whipper snapper!!

By the way, I only referred to you as that because you referred to yourself that way.
Remember this...

BigD quote...
Quote
WHAT THE MATTER OLD TIMER? ARE YOU GETTING FRUSTRATED BECAUSE YOU CANNOT RESPOND TO MY "SHOW ME". YOU CAN'T CAN YOU? (That is a question.) AT LEAST BE MAN ENOUGH TO ADMIT IT TO THIS YOUNG WIPER SNAPPER

 My friend. You do understand that there are only seven years left right? and that the bible clearly states that once antichrist signs the "seven year" peace pact, the final seven years begins...this is the seven years of tribulation. If I believe your theory, then I have to subtract the time from  the pentacost until sometime after the stoning of Stephen from the seven years which are clearly numbered in Revelation, which commences at the time that satan signs the "seven year" peace deal - which has yet to happen.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

 So when did the antichrist sign this seven year peace deal my friend? This must happen before the final seven years can begin.

 The 70th week of Daniel is a 7-year period divided into 3 parts.

  The first 3 1/2 years

  The Middle  of the 70th week

  The last 3 1/2 years

 The entire seven year period is accounted for down to the last day in Revelation my friend.

 First 3 1/2 years
 The first half of Tribulation is covered in Revelation 6,7,8,9.
The Seal and the Trumpet judgements are detailed. At the conclusion of the the sixth Trumpet at least 47% of the earth's population has died. This period is 1260 days long.

Last 3 1/2 years
 The second half of Tribulation is covered in Revelation 14,15,16,17,18,19. The Bowl judgements cover the whole earth as compared to portions of the earth in the Trumpet judgements. The earth is united under the direction of the antichrist to the final battle at Armageddon in Israel. This ends with the return of Jesus. This period is 1260 days long.

 Should we add your "missing" time to this seven years?


The completion of Godís revelation to Daniel requires several events that need to be completed Before the first 3 1/2 years

1. The Jewish nation has to be in existence.

2. Islamic power needs to be defeated for the Jewish Temple  to be built on Mt. Moriah.

3. Israel must have the desire to reconstruct the Temple in the face of world opposition.

 These conditions did not exist at the time when you believe the tribulation began my friend - as a matter of fact, the temple has not been rebuilt yet as far as I know. The other two conditions have been fulfilled, so we know we are close to the start of the seven year period. Once the antichrist signs the peace deal, the temple can begin to be rebuilt, and the seven year clock begins to wind down.

 You ask me to "show" you, and I have, but have you seen?

 Bronzesnake

 
 
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Jemidon2004
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« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2005, 12:38:32 PM »

2 thumps on the back and two thumbs up on your post Bronze. Keep up the great work. God Bless  Grin

Joshua
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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2005, 12:48:41 PM »

2 thumps on the back and two thumbs up on your post Bronze. Keep up the great work. God Bless  Grin

Joshua

 Thanks my friend...you do some very good work also.  Cheesy

Bronzesnake
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Jemidon2004
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« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2005, 12:58:54 PM »

Only sharing what the Lord has revealed to me. I'm just a vessal for His use. Again TY for the previous post. If the Lord wills i'll continue. God Bless

Joshua
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"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty" - John Calvin
shrekandogre
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« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2005, 01:30:44 PM »

Thank you bronzesnake you just saved me about 5 minutes worth of typing.  I just want to state again that the record of what will occur concerning the trib is in revelation.  So BigD why would something that started in acts be repeated in Revelation?  And if you believe that we are raptured during a pause in the trib that still midtrib in a way.  your in the middle of the trib. when it happens.
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« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2005, 03:45:08 PM »

Oh yea, i forgot to mention. BigD, your statement that the 70th week began at the stoning and death of Stephen has got me alert now. I went and did some research on that statement, and I found no indication that there was anything prophetic talking about the 70th week in Acts. I simply do not see where you pulled this from. yes, stephen was the first martyr, but what connection does he have with the 70th week. I find no other Scriptures to support this, you think you could clarify it with SCRIPTURE? Oh yea, I spoke to my pastor, and another friend of mine, and they both are as confused as I am about this claim, care to clarify. God Bless

Joshua
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« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2005, 06:22:06 PM »

Bronze,
         Good post, I agree with everything you said, and I suppose I'd probably agree with things you didn't say too. Cause that is what being like minded is all about....thank you I couldn't have said it better myself.
Jesus is Lord over all,
musicllover

PS..... well duh, the reason I posted to begin with is because I wanted you to know I've made a copy of your post for future reference.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2005, 06:23:13 PM by musicllover » Logged

musicllover
Bronzesnake
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« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2005, 12:10:19 AM »

Bronze,
         Good post, I agree with everything you said, and I suppose I'd probably agree with things you didn't say too. Cause that is what being like minded is all about....thank you I couldn't have said it better myself.
Jesus is Lord over all,
musicllover

PS..... well duh, the reason I posted to begin with is because I wanted you to know I've made a copy of your post for future reference.

 God said it first, we simply listen to what He says my friend.

 Bronzesnake
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BigD
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« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2005, 06:43:41 AM »

bronze:

THANKS
for the birthday greeting. It brought a big smile to my face because I do I remember well where the "young whipper snapper" phrase came from. It goes back to "Quasar."

First of all, I want to clarify your last remark. You said: "You ask me to "show" you, and I have, but have you seen?" Well you have no shown me what I requested. Back on the "70 WEEK PROPHESY" thread, reply #6 I said: "I will be more then happy to change my views if you can SHOW ME from Scripture that Joel in chapter 2:28-32 is not speaking of the Tribulation and that Peter in Acts 2:15-20 is WRONG in what he said." This you have not done. So, I have not seen a response to what I requested.

It has been about two years that we did a verse by verse study of The Book of the Revelation which also went back to the OT prophets. So I whould have to go back and do some re-studying of the OT prophets and the Tribulation details in prophesy. I did attempt to do that yesterday but keep getting interrupted. Primarly a lot of phone calls by dear friends and family members stopping by. However, details within the Tribulation it self are not what we are really presently discussing. It's did it start at Pentecost?

First of all, I did give Scriptural support for my position, so there is no need to go through that again. In Luke chapter 13 we have "the parable of the barren fig tree." (The nation of Israel is often referred to as a fig tree in the Bible.) (The following is my interpretation of the parable. If you do not agree with it, I would like to know your interpretation of it.

6 He (Jesus) spake also this parable; A certain man (God) had a fig tree (Isreael) planted in his vineyard (earth); and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

7 Then said he (God) unto the dresser (Jesus) of his vineyard, Behold, these three years (the duration of Christ's ministry) I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

8 And he (Jesus) answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also (the time from Pentecost till the stoning of Stephen), till I shall dig about it, and dung it:(The Holy Spirit manifications of Pentecost.)

9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down. (Israel was "cut down" [set aside] after the stoning of Stephen which occured approximately one year from Pentecost.

I have read, and been told, that the unique thing about a fig tree is that it can be cut down and the roots lay dormant for many years. If they are watered, they will again grow. I don't know if this is true or not.

At the time the Tribulation started in Acts 2, Israel was a nation and the temple was still standing, so there was no need for your above conditions to be met then. So, there were no physical requirements to be met when the Tribulation did start. For the Tribulation to again resume, those conditions will be met. There are several senerios as to how this will happen and I don't know which one could be right. God has it all planned out; so I am not going to worry about it. I won't be here anyway.

I find no support in Scripture that says that a 7 year peace treaty must be signed before the Tribulation can begins. However, you did bring up a good point which I have never  really considered. But, you probably haven't ever considered my viewpoint either. I am going to look into your view more.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!
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BigD
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« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2005, 07:56:07 AM »

shrekandogre posted:
"So BigD why would something that started in acts be repeated in Revelation?  And if you believe that we are raptured during a pause in the trib that still midtrib in a way.  your in the middle of the trib. when it happens."

BigD responds:
When the Tribulation is resumed, after the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ, it will not be a repeat but a resumption of what was started.

Just as the "dispensation of grace" is a "(parenthetical)" period within the dispensation of the Law, the "dispensation of grace" is also a "(parentehetical)" period within the Tribulation.
-------------------------------

Jemidon2004 posted:
"Oh yea, i forgot to mention. BigD, your statement that the 70th week began at the stoning and death of Stephen has got me alert now. I went and did some research on that statement, and I found no indication that there was anything prophetic talking about the 70th week in Acts."

BigD responds:
Don't believe I ever said or implied what you have written. Now that you are alert, I highly suggest that you go back and read over what I have posted.

THANKS for the reply though.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!
« Last Edit: January 21, 2005, 08:00:38 AM by BigD » Logged
shrekandogre
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« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2005, 08:34:34 AM »

The treaty can be found in Daniel 9:27 thats all i can say before I jet.
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« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2005, 08:55:05 AM »

Sorry bigD, i mis read. I thought you were saying that it started with the stoning of stephen. My apologies...however, i still do not see what Stephen's death has to do with it starting or stopping from that matter. God just doesn't start a week, then cut it through mid way...and I have read what you've written, don't get me wrong, however, i mis-read that...i re-read what you wrote on here last night amongst other things, oh yea. I also have a Scofield Bible as well as access to numerous resources, and all the resources that i've stumbled upon agree with what bronzesnake and I have said...just a thought since you said that your view lines up with that of the head of the berean society Tongue. Just thought i'd shoot that across your bow. God Bless

Joshua

Joshua
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BigD
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« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2005, 09:28:13 AM »

Jemidon2004
THANKS
for your response.

It was with the stoning of Stephen that Israel, as a nation, rejected the Third Person of the Trinity. That is when God set the nation of Israel aside and raised up Saul/Paul to usher in the dispensation of grace.

Yes, I do know that a peace tready between Israel and the anti-christ will be signed, but I cannot find any scriptural support the it must happen prior to the Tribulation starting.

As I have requested from bronze, if you can show me that Joel in Joel 2:28-32 was not talking about the Tribulation, and Peter was in error in Acts 2:15-20, THEN I will change my view. Hope that isn't too much to ask.

The one thing that I do not do is put stock in the "majority viewpoints". The majority view many years ago was that the world was flat. It was believed by the majority of the most prominant "Christian" church at that time. We all know better NOW.

Also, I grew up in a community of a little over 2,000 citizens. It was a Dutch community and there were 7 Reformed (Calvinist) churches in that town - no others. I was reared and educated in their "Christian School". I believed and wanted to believe everything that I was taugh.

My family background was very strong Calvinistic. In fact, my dad had two first cousins that were professors at Calvin College.

Prior to 1948 there was no nation of Israel, and the teaching of the Reformed Churches, and other protestant chruches, was that the "Church" was spiritual Israel and that Israel would never again be a nation. That was the majority view at that time.

Well, my dad, through his own personal study, came to see that Israel would one day be a nation again. At one time his view ranked about 2,000+ to 1. Now what would the odds say as to what his chances were to being right? Well, Israel became a nation on the 14th of May 1948 and my dad died on May 31, 1948. He was excommunicated from the "chruch" because he would not change his views. The lesson my father taught me was that the majority view is not always right, and don't believe everything I was taught as it being right.

Also, the majority of chruches today practise the rite of water baptism. Yet there is no majority view as to when, why and how the rite is to be administered. Personally I do not believe that the water rite should be practised today. But that is a different subject that could be discussed (argued - bep) later.

Well, so much for majority view.

Just thought that I would return the shot across you bow.

Have a good day, and God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!



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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2005, 11:57:02 AM »

BigD...

 We agree that there is seven years left after the death of Jesus...right?

 The seven years are accounted for in Revelation, and are known as the tribulation period.

 We have always had "tribulation" throughout history, however, when Jesus speaks about the end, He makes it clear that this period of tribulation will be unlike any other period in the history of the world...this is what is known as the final seven tribulation period - satan will be in charge of the world...literally and physically.

 The entire seven year period is accounted for down to the last day in Revelation my friend.

First 3 1/2 years
The first half of Tribulation is covered in Revelation 6,7,8,9.
The Seal and the Trumpet judgements are detailed. At the conclusion of the the sixth Trumpet at least 47% of the earth's population has died. This period is 1260 days long.

Last 3 1/2 years
The second half of Tribulation is covered in Revelation 14,15,16,17,18,19. The Bowl judgements cover the whole earth as compared to portions of the earth in the Trumpet judgements. The earth is united under the direction of the antichrist to the final battle at Armageddon in Israel. This ends with the return of Jesus. This period is 1260 days long.

 Listen my friend. I think you may be confusing end days signs with the final seven years of tribulation.
Jesus was specific in detailing certain events which would take place in the "end times" one such detail was that Israel would once again become a nation, and as you correctly pointed out, it did in 1948, and I believe it became complete when it took control of Jerusalem in 67. Jesus also described catastrophic weather and geological events, which we are witnessing today. These are all ":end times" prophecies just as Joel's prophecies - are we to add all these years as part of the final seven? Of course not! These are "end times" prophecies - the final seven years of tribulation are just that - the final seven years of the end times. These seven years are clearly counted out in Revelations, and are described as starting when the antichrist signs the SEVEN YEAR peace deal. Come on BigD, you sound like an intelligent lad, it's right there in plain black and white, why can't you see it?

Seven year peace deal by antichrist
Daniel 9:27

First 1260 days
Revelation 6,7,8,9.

Last 1260 days
Revelation 14,15,16,17,18,19.

 There is no room for any more time my friend. The clock stoped when Jesus was cut off - there is seven years missing - the seven years are clearly pointed out and even numbered so there's no confusion - they are described in Daniel, and Revelation.

 I've shown you actual numbers to back up my claims BigD...can you show me verses in the bible where actual numbers can be found in relation to your beliefs?

 Bronzesnake
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