Rapture

[Jemidon2004]

Majority views are overrated...as is normallness, worldliness, stupidity, breathing, and politics to name a few. as my friend says, she has simplified her theology to a single statement. "Eternity? Smoking or non?" That gets people to thinking...oh yea, your statement isn't too much to ask...i'll be glad to do some studying on it and get back to you on it. It may take a few days, but i'll see what i can find out. I still don't see what Peter's quotation of the first part of Joel's prophecy has to do with the Tribulation period. But i'll look into it. God Bless

Joshua

[shrekandogre]

I totally believe in Calvin's belief of predestination i dont know how fully i believe in his concepts overalll though.  Anyway with Peter in Acts.  Im pulling some of this from my bible commentary, the last days that Joel refers to is Hebrew for afterwards so hes talking about after the holy spirit comes not the tribulation or any such way and then Peter puts it in the context of the "latter days of the new covenant" aka the age of Messianic Covenant and its fullilment and quoting from my commentary "latter days of the new covenant in contrast to the former days of the old covenant".  Sry if this is confusing im sort of rushing but this is what Acts 2 is refering to.

[BigD]

Bronzesnake, I am not disputing your numbers. That is a different rabbit trail that you are trying to lead me down. What we are discussing is - Did the Tribulation start at Pentecost. You have not shown me that Joel 2:28-32 is not speaking of the Tribulation or if he was, that Peter didn't know what he was talking about when he quoted Joel.

I do believe that the short time that the Tribulation was in progress, the manifistationions that were appearing were were signs that the Tribulation was starting. Peter said in Acts 2:16 "BUT THIS IS THAT WHICH WAS SPOKEN BY THE PROPHET JOEL." Peter is either right or didn't know where he was in the prophetic time clock.

Gaps in scripture are not uncomon. In Isaiah 9:6 we read: "For unto us a child is born,...and the government shall be upon His shoulders." We know that child was Jesus and He was born in Bethlehem. However, the government is yet to be upon His shoulders. That is still future. There is one lllooonnnngggg gap.

We know that the Old Testament prophets saw ALL of the particulars of Christ's 1st and 2nd comings, but often preceived them as one event. In Luke 4, we find the following:

16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21 And he began to say unto them This day is this scripture fulfilled.

Jesus was quoting Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Notice the point in Luke 4: where Jesus quoted the phrase "To preach the acceptable year of the Lord, " and Then closed the book. Jesus did not quote all of Isaiah's writing in verse 2. He left out the phrase: "and the day of vengeanace of our God;...(the Tribulation)" Had Jesus quoted that part of Isaiah 61:2 He would have not been able to say, as He did in Luke 4:21 "This day is this scripture fulfilled."

The part that Jesus quoted is still valid today, BUT the Tribulation has not yet been fulfilled. So you see, there is quite a gap between the comma after Jesus said "To preach the acceptable year of the Lord" and "the day of vengeance of our God."

From Moses to the setting aside of Israel the Law was in effect. After Israel was set aside, so was the Law. It was abolished by the cross during this dispensation of grace. During the Tribulation and the milleniumn the Law will again be ineffect. There will be 12 disciples sitting upon twelve thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. In order to judge, there must be Laws to judge by. Also, the Law will be written on the heart of every Jew (Jer. 31:33).

You should be able to see that there was a gap between the birth of Jesus and when the government will be upon His shoulders. Jesus was born but the government is still not upon His shoulders.

You should be able to see that there is a gap in Isaiah 61:2 between the phrase: "to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord" and "the day of vengeaance of our God. It is still "the acceptable year of the Lord", but the Tribulation is still not fulfilled.

You should be able to see that there is a gap within the dispensation of the Law - the dispensation of grace. We are still in the dispensation of grace, but at its close, the Law (new covenant) again will be in effect.

So, a gap in the Tribulation shouldn't be tooo shocking.

The book of the Revelation does cover all of the Tribulation period. The manifistations that started at Pentecost will resume after the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ. There will be a peace tready signed with the anti-christ and will be broken in the middle of the seven year. The last 3 1/2 year will be the Great Tribulation.

Keep in mind that this dispensation of grace cannot be found in prophesy. It "was kept secret since the world began." It was revealed to Paul AFTER the setting aside of the nation of Israel. Therefore, there are no prophesies being fulfilled today. However, there are events happening today that will lead to the fulfillment of OT prophesies. You cannotfind one word about the Chruch, the Body of Christ, in OT prophesies or the gospels.  You cannot find one word of the rapture in OT prophies or in the gospels. You cannot find salvation by grace through faith in the shed blood of Christ in OT prophesies and the gospels. They were part of the "mystery" that was revealed to Paul.

Bronzesnake, I do have several copies of a book that I would like to send you, at my expense. It will give you a good idea as to where I am coming from. It is titled "The MYSTERY" by pastor Joel Finck.

In order to do that, you would have to e-mail me your mailing address. I PROMISE that I will keep that information confidential and send not unrequested materials.

This offer is available to anyone out there that would like a copy of this book.

This book cannot be found in librayies or in book stores. In order to keep the cost of the book down, the author is his own publisher.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[BigD]

Jemidon2004:
THANKS for your reply:

I really appreciate the fact that you will look into my request. Will be looking forward to your reply.
-----------------------------

shrekandogre:
Acts 2:15-20 is speaking of the Tribulation. Peter is quoting Joel in verse 20 and calls it "that great and notable day of the lord..." Brother, that is the Tribulation.

For you, my friend, I will make an offer that I hope you don't refuse. As a former Calvinist that now rejects the 5 points of Calvinist, I would like to send you a book, at my expense, that does refute the 5 points of Calvinism (TULIP.) I will make this offer to anyone that desires to have this book. All that I need is to you you e-mail me your mailing address and I will send one. I PROMISE to keep that information confidential and not send any other materials unless requested.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[shrekandogre]

no that would not be the tribulation more like the second coming.   and your taking it out of context.

[BigD]

no that would not be the tribulation more like the second coming.   and your taking it out of context.

BigD responds:
The Lord's second coming COMPLETES the Tribulation. So the Tribulation has to happen prior to His second coming. I probably should have stated it that way originally.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[musicllover]

BigD,
       For my times sake, cause class have begun again and I am limited to the time I can spend here, would you please tell me which view you are supporting so I know where you are coming from for sure. Correct me so far is that you believe the tribulation period begun at Penticost in Act 2 with Peter sermon, and is then there is a gap, the rest of tribulation will finish at the rapture. If that is what you intended does this view support the mid trib?

musicllover

[BigD]

BigD,
       For my times sake, cause class have begun again and I am limited to the time I can spend here, would you please tell me which view you are supporting so I know where you are coming from for sure. Correct me so far is that you believe the tribulation period begun at Penticost in Act 2 with Peter sermon, and is then there is a gap, the rest of tribulation will finish at the rapture. If that is what you intended does this view support the mid trib?

musicllover

BigD responds:
THANKS for your quistion.

You have observed correctly, however, it is not the mid-trib view.

The mid-trib view is that the first 3 1/2 years is considered the 1st half of the Tribulation and then the rapture. After the rapture we go into the last 3 1/2 years which is called the Great Tribulation. Many today believe that the Chruch, the Body of Christ, will go through the 1st half of the Tribulation.

The Chruch, the Body of Christ was not yet "made" (see 2Tim.2:15), so it did not go through the short period of time that the Tribulation that started in Acts 2. Between Acts 2 and the stoning of Stephen was approx 1 year. So, I hope you can see that the Chruch, the Body of Christ, will and did not go through any part of the Tribulation.

Hope this isn't too confusing.

Feel free to ask any question you may have. Also, consider ordering the book I am offering.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[shrekandogre]

First off stop talking in the third person, we know its you so you dont have to say "BigD responds"...second off your using the same excuse over and over again after me and bronzesnake gave you verses that show you you're wrong and once again.  WHERE IS THE TREATY?  No treaty no tribulation.  Daniel 9:27  Either way you say it your belief is midtrib its in the middle of the tribulation according to you aka midtrib.

[BigD]

It isn't signed yet. Still future. There is NO scriptural support that says that the treaty MUST be signed before the Tribulation begins.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!.

[Bronzesnake]

Hello BigD my friend.

Did you get drunk on birthday cake?  

 I must agree with shrek, your theory on this one year tribulation is confused.
 Why was the stoning of Stephen so important that the clock should stop there? The scriptures clearly mark the time when Jesus was "cut off" at 483 years. Up to that point all the weeks were complete 490 year sections, why do you think the scriptures suddenly detail a 483 year period and ascribe it to the exact time when Jesus was crucified?

 Wouldn't it make more sense if the scriptures described a 494 year period to correspond with Stephen's death if you were correct? That's a year from Acts 2 to Stephen's death. I subscribe it's an even longer period of time from the crucifixion of Jesus to Stephen's death, which would cut into the final seven year timeline from the signing of the peace deal,  but for arguments sake I'll go along with your numbers.

Again; the scriptures clearly provide for a seven year period (not six years) which begins with the antichrist signing the peace deal. What do we do with your extra year?

 

The Chruch, the Body of Christ was not yet "made" (see 2Tim.2:15),

 My friend - once again you have confused me. What exactly does 2Tim 2:15 have to do with the body of Christ not being "made" yet?

 2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 I mean, it's a great verse, but anyone could use that verse, even if their doctrine is severely flawed. Does using that verse make any doctrine correct?

 Finally my friend with a 73 candled cake - You can not have one year of tribulation having passed and still ascribe to a Pre-Trib rapture. Even if you believe there were no "Christians" after Jesus died - it's still Post Trib, even if only one year of tribulation passed and the Church was not as of yet born. Pre-Trib rapture means the Tribulation period will not begin before the Rapture. It doesn't mean the Church is not born before the Tribulation.

 For example; let's say the Church was not born until the fifth year of Tribulation has occurred, and the Rapture occurred at that point. Is that still a Pre-Trib Rapture? Of course it isn't, because the Tribulation has already begun.

 Take care Big Guy...and thanks for your sincere book offer, that was truly generous. I will e-mail you with my address, but I must be honest with you. I can tell you for certain that I will never ascribe to your logic, however, I think there is wisdom in at least attempting to understand your viewpoint. At the very least, I could then, offer you a more effective rebuttal.

 Bronzesnake

[musicllover]

BigD,
       For my times sake, cause class have begun again and I am limited to the time I can spend here, would you please tell me which view you are supporting so I know where you are coming from for sure. Correct me so far is that you believe the tribulation period begun at Penticost in Act 2 with Peter sermon, and is then there is a gap, the rest of tribulation will finish at the rapture. If that is what you intended does this view support the mid trib?

musicllover

BigD responds:
THANKS for your quistion.

You have observed correctly, however, it is not the mid-trib view.

The mid-trib view is that the first 3 1/2 years is considered the 1st half of the Tribulation and then the rapture. After the rapture we go into the last 3 1/2 years which is called the Great Tribulation. Many today believe that the Chruch, the Body of Christ, will go through the 1st half of the Tribulation.

The Chruch, the Body of Christ was not yet "made" (see 2Tim.2:15), so it did not go through the short period of time that the Tribulation that started in Acts 2. Between Acts 2 and the stoning of Stephen was approx 1 year. So, I hope you can see that the Chruch, the Body of Christ, will and did not go through any part of the Tribulation.

Hope this isn't too confusing.

Feel free to ask any question you may have. Also, consider ordering the book I am offering.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

BigD,
     you said it is not the mid-trib view, so what view is it? I'm trying really hard not to get confused but I've never heard anything like what your teaching here. Mid trib view yes, post trib, or pre trib so what is this?

musicllover
musicllover

[BigD]

Bronze:
I am leaving in about 10 minuted to go to me great grand-daugheters 4the bithday party which is about 100 miles away. Won't have time to answer you today, but will probabley do that tomarrow.

Ordering the book will be a GREAT help in your understanding my position. Hope more will do it.

Gota run.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[musicllover]

Howdy,
         this is to those on the thread who are as confused as I am. I looked up the author Big D suggested and seems to be a follower of, Joel Fink he is a believer of the ..."The Free Grace movement is housed under a pretty big tent. Finck represents Free Grace believers, who are sometimes referred to as Ultra-Dispensationalists. (Finck actually calls himself a mid-Acts Dispensationalist.)....If you would like to read the small bio on him concerning another of his books you can read it here......
http://www.faithalone.org/journal/bookreviews/finck.html

I hope that works, not sure how all this linking stuff works. But either way I just typed in Finck name on a search engine and I'm sure you'll find something.

NOW what the heck is ultra dispensationalistism.......  had to spit my teeth out for that one  

musicllover

[Bronzesnake]

Howdy,
         this is to those on the thread who are as confused as I am. I looked up the author Big D suggested and seems to be a follower of, Joel Fink he is a believer of the ..."The Free Grace movement is housed under a pretty big tent. Finck represents Free Grace believers, who are sometimes referred to as Ultra-Dispensationalists. (Finck actually calls himself a mid-Acts Dispensationalist.)....If you would like to read the small bio on him concerning another of his books you can read it here......
http://www.faithalone.org/journal/bookreviews/finck.html

I hope that works, not sure how all this linking stuff works. But either way I just typed in Finck name on a search engine and I'm sure you'll find something.

NOW what the heck is ultra dispensationalistism.......  had to spit my teeth out for that one  

musicllover

 Thanks musiclover. The link worked and was just as confusing as what BigD has offered, so I guess they're alligned.

 Bronzesnake