Matt: 7:21-23

[cris]

Anyone care to comment on what your interpretation is on these verses 21, 22 and 23 from Matthew 7.

Should we even have different interpretations?

[Brother Love]

Anyone care to comment on what your interpretation is on these verses 21, 22 and 23 from Matthew 7.

Should we even have different interpretations?

How about POSTING the VERSES

[2nd Timothy]

Anyone care to comment on what your interpretation is on these verses 21, 22 and 23 from Matthew 7.

Should we even have different interpretations?

We shouldn't have different interpretations, but these being referred to in this passage clearly would have a different interpretation.      

Grace and Peace!

[Allinall]

Anyone care to comment on what your interpretation is on these verses 21, 22 and 23 from Matthew 7.

Should we even have different interpretations?

Two-fold question my friend.  Question number one reply:

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

   
   22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

   
   23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I would say that this passage just goes to show that not everyone that professes Jesus, knows Him.  When told this, they reply, "But Lord!  Haven't we done such and such, and thus and like, in Your name?!!?"  The problem is that it's not about them.  One who truly professes Jesus, and is professed by Jesus, doesn't do "wonderful works."  They obey the leading of God in their lives, in their service, for the benefit of the body of Christ.  Those people see only the things they did.  They failed to see the God that, had they truly known Him, would have done each of those things through them.  Therefore, what each one had done, was simply a "work of iniquity."

Question 2: There is only one interpretation of each passage.  We must be humble enough to accept that interpretation when God gives it to us through His Spirit in accordance with His word.  There are many applications of each interpretation.  When we give in to the idea of multiple interps, we make the absolute truth of God's word fit in with our nonabsolute philosophy of life.  We buy into the thinking that there are no absolutes, and that everything is different for each person.  God's word deals with that topic as well, but that's a different thread altogether...

Merry Christmas!

[nChrist]

Allinall,

AMEN BROTHER!!

I really don't have anything of substance to add. I would simply say there are many people sitting in church pews who play-act at being Christians one hour per week. They may actually be there for business reasons, and they may give to soothe their conscience or status in the community, but they don't know Jesus and Jesus doesn't know them.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 18:28  For thou wilt light my candle: the LORD my God will enlighten my darkness.

[cris]

OK 2T - which is it?  



Sorry I didn't post those verses.  Will do better in the future.  Thanks for posting them allinall.


I feel these verses refer to the "saved" state.  I cannot imagine anyone prophesying and casting out demons in Jesus' name who didn't believe they were saved.  These verses seem to say one can lose their salvation.  Prophesying and casting out demons in Jesus' name IS bearing fruit so something else has to be going on here.  Maybe it's as allinall says.  Maybe they were doing it on their own and not on the prompting of the Holy Spirit.  It brings to mind the verse that says a kingdom divided against itself can't stand.  Satan doesn't cast out Satan. And it also brings to mind the verse that says to be careful lest you be deceived.  It seems to me these people who were bearing fruit were saved or thought they were saved.  So, I guess God considered them bearing bad fruit even though it looks like good fruit to us.  All the more we need to be on our guard and prayerfully submit to Him.

Any other opinions on these 3 verses?  Would like to hear them.




 

[Soldier4Christ]

The third verse says "that I never knew you. If this were talking about someone that had "lost" their salvation would it not say "I no longer know you" or "I once knew you"?
 
I believe that this is speaking of individuals that are giving mouth service and not heart service. By this I mean that they are professing Jesus Christ as their Saviour but never actually accepted Him as Saviour.

Their are individuals that will go through the acts of Christianity for the appearance to other men, appearing to cast out demons in His name when they have not actually done so, to prophesy in His name when they are actually giving false prophesies.

If we go a little further back to verse 15 we see that false prophets is the subject being spoken on.

Mat 7:15  Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.


Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

[cris]

Good point PR on your first paragraph.  I was blinded to that until you opened my eyes.  I'll have to give it more thought.  Right now I can't,  but I appreciate your input.  

One of these days I'll learn to use the quote thingy.  I don't know how to quote just one sentence, etc.  I'll learn when I have some time.

[nChrist]

Brother Cris,

There are several ways to use the quote function.

First, you can hit the quote on the message you wish to reply to, an the forum software will copy the entire message within quotes. You can then highlight the portion you don't want quoted and hit your delete key. You then begin typing after the last quote command. The quote command looks like this - (Note - I had to replace "[] with {}" to make it show properly since this is a formal command:

{quote}{/quote}

Everything in the center of the quote commands is quoted and in a separate box. The above would be completely correct with "[]" instead of "{}".

You can also highlight text and use your own copy to clipboard function, hit the box with the blue right arrow on your reply to place the quote commands for you, and paste what you copied to your clipboard in the exact center of the quote commands.

You can also type in the quote commands yourself or use the box with the blue right arrow to place a quote anywhere you wish in your reply.

I hope this helps some.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 1:17  For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

[MalkyEL]

Hope you don't mind if I drop in and put a little different slant on this.

As was pointed out, the context is false prophets/teachers.

A false prophet/teacher would be one who does not believe that God was made manifest in the flesh as His Son - Jesus Christ.

We are to test the spirits.  If the spirit of whomever is doing the healing does not proclaim that Jesus was, is, and always will be God, he/she is a false prophet/teacher.  Anyone who is taught under that spirit will do the same works that the false person is doing it under.

The gifts of the Spirit are as the Spirit wills, not by man's desire or appointment.  The false prophets and teachers today that are in these huge healing ministries are not of God.  They are false.  I am referring to the likes of Hinn, Copeland, Hagin, Roberts, Dollar, Crouches, Joyce Meyer - to be blunt - the Word of Faith movement and much, if not most of the currently coined "Charismatic" movement.

That whole venue was birthed by those who teach and believe that Jesus was born only human.  When He died, He *died spiritually*, took on the nature of satan, and then He was reborn, raised by God to be "a" god.  Christians are also reborn and are little gods with the same power as Jesus had.  Therefore; they have what is called the "believer's authority".  This doctrine teaches that you have the power to heal and cast out demons.

So how does satan cast out demons?  Very simply.  he imitates by making it appear as if those demons have departed.  he is the great imitator - masquerading as an angel of light.  

I have talked to many, many people who have had so-called deliverences from demons.  They always, always come back.  Usually within two weeks, sometimes longer.  They just hang around waiting for a person to weaken and then re-enter.

These people then go back again and again to be delivered.  Same with the healing thing.  Been there, done that.

So what does that do to the salvation issue?  I don't know,  to be honest.  Only God knows the heart.  I do know that He will use true believers to heal and cast out demons as He wills.  And sometimes it looks like the exact thing as you see coming from the other side.  

It's all about the fruit.  If you look at the fruit of people's lives, they must measure up to the standards of God's Word.  Sometimes it takes a lot of time, prayer, and watching to see what kind of spirit it is.   If it is not of God, they are proclaiming a false gospel.  When you submit yourself to their teachings and follow them, you are in essence taking on that false spirit and operating in it.

I believe that people who are under this kind of spirit, unknowingly, have the opportunity to hear the truth.  Most will reject the truth, because they believe the lies in their hearts.  God is not a God of spiritual manifestations.  Yet this venue makes it the basic premise of salvation.  The more manifestations - whether it be healing, casting out demons, tongues, or getting "slain in the spirit", laughing, dancing, jerking, feelings of fire, etc ad nauseum  -  are to soothe, titillate, and excite the flesh.  You are taught that the more you "feel", the closer to God you are.

Jesus said, Blessed are those who believe but do not see.  Faith in Him is the foundation of salvation, not seeing, feeling, falling, and the host of other manifestations that satan is using to get people into major deception.

The kind of "salvation" that is dependant on manifestations and false doctrine/theology is not "knowing" Jesus. It is another gospel.  Therefore, He will say to those people - get away from Me, I never knew you.

shalom, nana

[Symphony]

shalom, malky,  


I think they're verses that just illustrate further what PR above here mentions:  "...mouth (or lip) service, and not heart service..."


The verses illustrate how its easy to masquerade as a follower of Jesus.


I wonder, Chris, why were you asking the question?


The verses don't intimate it, exactly, but again, it's really about the love question.  

The distinictions between what happens when we love, as opposed to when we just "try" to love, or, perhaps, just try to copy.

Jesus is just drawing the distinction between the Real McCoy and the counterfeit.

Good lessons there for all of us.

The "religion" we have in Jesus is one of the few, or probably the only one, where love is at the very nexus of it all - confounding the angels as well as satan himself.

What we do springs from that love we have for Him(which He gives us in the first place, of course - He loved us first).  All other - or any other, action, or behaviour, is counterfeit.


In fact, I think, in the New Testament especially, but certainly in the Old Testament(Deuternonmy , for instance), love, and profound love, is the very basis of it all.

I don't think any other "religion" boasts such a central, deep seated, continuing theme.

Which is wonderfully liberating, b/c all other religions ultimately rely upon man's righteousness - the things that he does.

Whereas our knowledge in Jesus relies on absolutely nothing that we can do, to save ourselves - it's all pointless, futile, useless.

Actually, our "faith" is quite opposite to the rest of the world's.

[nChrist]

AMEN SYMPHONY!!

Sister Nana, I really don't know much about the people or ministries you mentioned. I have seen and heard a little bit about Binny Hinn.

I saw a MAJOR ISSUE in your post that jumped off the page at me. It, alone, is what I concentrated on. Jesus Christ is, was, and always will be ALMIGHTY GOD, THE CREATOR!! Jesus Christ did take the form of a man, walk this earth, and die for us on the CROSS, BUT HE WASN'T JUST A MAN!! Jesus Christ was NOT created, nor was HE made into a god (little "g"). Jesus Christ IS GOD, and HE Lives today, yesterday to infinity, and tomorrow to infinity. I won't judge any of the people or ministries you mentioned, mainly because I don't know what they teach and believe.

HOWEVER, I will say with all boldness and bluntness that we should ignore and turn off anyone who denies that Jesus Christ is VERY GOD. It is blasphemy is say that Jesus Christ was a brother of Lucifer, created, or somehow elevated to something HE was not before. Jesus Christ always was and always will be ALMIGHTY GOD. This is a very simple test Christians should and can use. Anyone who teaches otherwise is working for the devil. It's just as simple as that.

I don't think that the bold statement above should cause any strife or division in THE BODY OF CHRIST. If you are a real Christian, you know that Jesus is GOD. If you don't know or believe that Jesus is GOD, you are not a Christian - just as simple and blunt as that. When one uses the name of JESUS, they are using the name of GOD. If someone is doing something for or in the name of a JESUS who is not GOD, they ARE NOT working for GOD.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I Peter 1:18-19  Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

[Soldier4Christ]

AMEN SYMPHONY!!

Sister Nana, I really don't know much about the people or ministries you mentioned. I have seen and heard a little bit about Binny Hinn.

I saw a MAJOR ISSUE in your post that jumped off the page at me. It, alone, is what I concentrated on. Jesus Christ is, was, and always will be ALMIGHTY GOD, THE CREATOR!! Jesus Christ did take the form of a man, walk this earth, and die for us on the CROSS, BUT HE WASN'T JUST A MAN!! Jesus Christ was NOT created, nor was HE made into a god (little "g"). Jesus Christ IS GOD, and HE Lives today, yesterday to infinity, and tomorrow to infinity. I won't judge any of the people or ministries you mentioned, mainly because I don't know what they teach and believe.

HOWEVER, I will say with all boldness and bluntness that we should ignore and turn off anyone who denies that Jesus Christ is VERY GOD. It is blasphemy is say that Jesus Christ was a brother of Lucifer, created, or somehow elevated to something HE was not before. Jesus Christ always was and always will be ALMIGHTY GOD. This is a very simple test Christians should and can use. Anyone who teaches otherwise is working for the devil. It's just as simple as that.

I don't think that the bold statement above should cause any strife or division in THE BODY OF CHRIST. If you are a real Christian, you know that Jesus is GOD. If you don't know or believe that Jesus is GOD, you are not a Christian - just as simple and blunt as that. When one uses the name of JESUS, they are using the name of GOD. If someone is doing something for or in the name of a JESUS who is not GOD, they ARE NOT working for GOD.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I Peter 1:18-19  Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Amen brother and Another Amen to Symphony,



Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Joh 10:30  I and my Father are one.

1Jo 5:7  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

[cris]

BEP,-----thanks for the instructions on how to use the quote thingy.  I haven't had the chance to experiment with it but I will do so first chance I get. However, what's a clipboard?  I will have to learn how to "paste" also.  Sorry I'm very computer illiterate.  Seems as if I'm always in a hurry to do or say something and never have the time to just experiment with it.


I know God said, "I never knew you" in Matt: 7-23.  He also said somewhere in the OT that He knew all of us before we were born, too, even though it probably doesn't have anything to do with these 3 vs from Matthew.  Apparently He was speaking to those at the great white throne judgement where none of those are saved (Matt. 25:41-46).  It also brings to mind the Pharisees. They were sticklers in following the letter of the law.  Jesus told the people to listen to them because they preached the truth, but not to do what they (the Pharisee's) did.  They knew the truth but were deceitful and devious in wanting to bind others to the letter of the law.  Here, I believe Jesus was speaking of the heart condition.  The Pharisees would allow someone to die on the Sabbath----------what kind of a heart is this?  I also think our precious Lord and Savior came to teach some common sense (which, apparently some of us lost along the way).  It seems as if allinall kinda hit the nail on the head with "professing" and "knowing".  That was good.  I think, then, that there must be those who know nothing about being saved but have the heart of God and do all the things that Jesus asked us to do.  Also, there must be those who know about being saved but don't have the heart of God. They just play-act as BEP said.  As I type this I'm ending up answering my own question, I think!!

I've listened to Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, and some of the others who were mentioned and have to disagree about them preaching another gospel. No one is perfect (yet) and we all make mistakes.  I've read a couple of J. Meyer's books and they were a blessing to me.  I've also read some of Hinn's books-------------they blessed me, too.  I don't consider any of these books to be bad fruit.  They preached the Word of God.  I do know denominations point a finger at each other accusing and judging.  Some of the people you spoke of are AG and Four Square pentacostals.  I've listened to the Crouches for years and have been blessed.  I've never heard any of these people preach that salvation was based on manifestations.  I learned so much from them about the heart condition of people.  And about deliverance, I tend to agree with you here, at least partially.  That's a whole other topic, though.  

Symphony, I ask questions in order to learn.  I like to hear what others believe and why.  I liked what you had to say, too.  One of my problems/questions is that there are different denominations because they interpret differently.  This really, really bothers me.  Sometimes I think we all should have the same interpretation and, then, sometimes I think God gives each of us the interpretation based on where we are in Him.  I know what I just said is problematic, also. This, too, could be a whole other topic with pros and cons.

Anyway, here's what my bible (NAS) says-------Matt. 7 vs 1-6 is about judging others; 7-12 is about encouraging to pray;  13-23 is about ways contrasted and fruits contrasted; and 24-29 is about the two foundations.

Some people believe one can lose their salvation and some believe you can't.  It's all in the interpretation of the bible.  I know that if I get stuck in a snowstorm and get rescued (saved), I can later choose to go right back, maybe years later, thinking there won't be a storm and end up perishing.

There could also be other implications to these verses according to Calvin's doctrine.  I had never heard about his doctrine until recently---------believe it or not-------duh, like where have I been all my life.






 
 

[nChrist]

Chris Said:

BEP,-----thanks for the instructions on how to use the quote thingy.  I haven't had the chance to experiment with it but I will do so first chance I get. However, what's a clipboard?  I will have to learn how to "paste" also.  Sorry I'm very computer illiterate.  Seems as if I'm always in a hurry to do or say something and never have the time to just experiment with it.

Brother Chris,

You are most welcome. When you drag your mouse over a portion of text, right click, and choose "copy" from the command menu, the selected text is temporarily stored in what's called the "clipboard". When you click where you want the text, right click, and give the command "paste", it takes what is stored in the "clipboard" and pastes it where your cursor is.

Reference the people and the ministries mentioned, I really don't know what they believe or teach. Sister Nancy was talking about people who don't believe Jesus is God, nor do they teach Jesus is God. I don't know if those people or ministries fit that or not, but I do know that Jesus Christ is the only way to be saved and is most obviously God. There are huge ministries that teach Jesus was just a man, or just a prophet, or just a brother of the devil, a fallen angel, and was made into a god with a little "g". As an example, Islam believes Jesus was a lesser prophet than Mohamed. They claim that Allah is the same God we worship, but he couldn't be since they don't recognize Jesus as God. There are large ministries that I do know about that teach we can be elevated to "gods", just like Jesus, if we believe in and practice what they teach. For some of these groups, you never find out the truth until you ask specific questions about Jesus:

1.  Is Jesus Almighty God?
2.  Was Jesus created?
3.  Who is Jesus?
4.  Was Jesus just a man, a prophet, or a great teacher?
5.  Is Jesus Christ the Creator?

Answers -

1.  YES.
2.  NO.
3.  Our Living Lord and Saviour, ALMIGHTY GOD.
4.  NO.
5.  YES.

Any other answers would either have to be based upon something other than the Holy Bible or completely ignore large parts of the Holy Bible. This would involve Salvation issues that most Christians would definitely contend for.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 124:8  Our help is in the name of the LORD, who made heaven and earth.