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Anyone care to comment on what your interpretation is on these verses 21, 22 and 23 from Matthew 7.

Should we even have different interpretations?

How about POSTING the VERSES ;D

We shouldn't have different interpretations, but these being referred to in this passage clearly would have a different interpretation.   ;)    

Grace and Peace!

Two-fold question my friend.  Question number one reply:


I would say that this passage just goes to show that not everyone that professes Jesus, knows Him.  When told this, they reply, "But Lord!  Haven't we done such and such, and thus and like, in Your name?!!?"  The problem is that it's not about them.  One who truly professes Jesus, and is professed by Jesus, doesn't do "wonderful works."  They obey the leading of God in their lives, in their service, for the benefit of the body of Christ.  Those people see only the things they did.  They failed to see the God that, had they truly known Him, would have done each of those things through them.  Therefore, what each one had done, was simply a "work of iniquity."

Question 2: There is only one interpretation of each passage.  We must be humble enough to accept that interpretation when God gives it to us through His Spirit in accordance with His word.  There are many applications of each interpretation.  When we give in to the idea of multiple interps, we make the absolute truth of God's word fit in with our nonabsolute philosophy of life.  We buy into the thinking that there are no absolutes, and that everything is different for each person.  God's word deals with that topic as well, but that's a different thread altogether... ;D

Merry Christmas!

Allinall,

AMEN BROTHER!!

I really don't have anything of substance to add. I would simply say there are many people sitting in church pews who play-act at being Christians one hour per week. They may actually be there for business reasons, and they may give to soothe their conscience or status in the community, but they don't know Jesus and Jesus doesn't know them.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 18:28  For thou wilt light my candle: the LORD my God will enlighten my darkness.

OK 2T - which is it?  ;)



Sorry I didn't post those verses.  Will do better in the future.  Thanks for posting them allinall.


I feel these verses refer to the "saved" state.  I cannot imagine anyone prophesying and casting out demons in Jesus' name who didn't believe they were saved.  These verses seem to say one can lose their salvation.  Prophesying and casting out demons in Jesus' name IS bearing fruit so something else has to be going on here.  Maybe it's as allinall says.  Maybe they were doing it on their own and not on the prompting of the Holy Spirit.  It brings to mind the verse that says a kingdom divided against itself can't stand.  Satan doesn't cast out Satan. And it also brings to mind the verse that says to be careful lest you be deceived.  It seems to me these people who were bearing fruit were saved or thought they were saved.  So, I guess God considered them bearing bad fruit even though it looks like good fruit to us.  All the more we need to be on our guard and prayerfully submit to Him.

Any other opinions on these 3 verses?  Would like to hear them.




 

The third verse says "that I never knew you. If this were talking about someone that had "lost" their salvation would it not say "I no longer know you" or "I once knew you"?
 
I believe that this is speaking of individuals that are giving mouth service and not heart service. By this I mean that they are professing Jesus Christ as their Saviour but never actually accepted Him as Saviour.

Their are individuals that will go through the acts of Christianity for the appearance to other men, appearing to cast out demons in His name when they have not actually done so, to prophesy in His name when they are actually giving false prophesies.

If we go a little further back to verse 15 we see that false prophets is the subject being spoken on.

Mat 7:15  Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.


Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Good point PR on your first paragraph.  I was blinded to that until you opened my eyes.  I'll have to give it more thought.  Right now I can't,  but I appreciate your input.  

One of these days I'll learn to use the quote thingy.  I don't know how to quote just one sentence, etc.  I'll learn when I have some time.

Brother Cris,

There are several ways to use the quote function.

First, you can hit the quote on the message you wish to reply to, an the forum software will copy the entire message within quotes. You can then highlight the portion you don't want quoted and hit your delete key. You then begin typing after the last quote command. The quote command looks like this - (Note - I had to replace "[] with {}" to make it show properly since this is a formal command:

{quote}{/quote}

Everything in the center of the quote commands is quoted and in a separate box. The above would be completely correct with "[]" instead of "{}".

You can also highlight text and use your own copy to clipboard function, hit the box with the blue right arrow on your reply to place the quote commands for you, and paste what you copied to your clipboard in the exact center of the quote commands.

You can also type in the quote commands yourself or use the box with the blue right arrow to place a quote anywhere you wish in your reply.

I hope this helps some.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 1:17  For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Hope you don't mind if I drop in and put a little different slant on this.

As was pointed out, the context is false prophets/teachers.

A false prophet/teacher would be one who does not believe that God was made manifest in the flesh as His Son - Jesus Christ.

We are to test the spirits.  If the spirit of whomever is doing the healing does not proclaim that Jesus was, is, and always will be God, he/she is a false prophet/teacher.  Anyone who is taught under that spirit will do the same works that the false person is doing it under.

The gifts of the Spirit are as the Spirit wills, not by man's desire or appointment.  The false prophets and teachers today that are in these huge healing ministries are not of God.  They are false.  I am referring to the likes of Hinn, Copeland, Hagin, Roberts, Dollar, Crouches, Joyce Meyer - to be blunt - the Word of Faith movement and much, if not most of the currently coined "Charismatic" movement.

That whole venue was birthed by those who teach and believe that Jesus was born only human.  When He died, He *died spiritually*, took on the nature of satan, and then He was reborn, raised by God to be "a" god.  Christians are also reborn and are little gods with the same power as Jesus had.  Therefore; they have what is called the "believer's authority".  This doctrine teaches that you have the power to heal and cast out demons.

So how does satan cast out demons?  Very simply.  he imitates by making it appear as if those demons have departed.  he is the great imitator - masquerading as an angel of light.  

I have talked to many, many people who have had so-called deliverences from demons.  They always, always come back.  Usually within two weeks, sometimes longer.  They just hang around waiting for a person to weaken and then re-enter.

These people then go back again and again to be delivered.  Same with the healing thing.  Been there, done that.

So what does that do to the salvation issue?  I don't know,  to be honest.  Only God knows the heart.  I do know that He will use true believers to heal and cast out demons as He wills.  And sometimes it looks like the exact thing as you see coming from the other side.  

It's all about the fruit.  If you look at the fruit of people's lives, they must measure up to the standards of God's Word.  Sometimes it takes a lot of time, prayer, and watching to see what kind of spirit it is.   If it is not of God, they are proclaiming a false gospel.  When you submit yourself to their teachings and follow them, you are in essence taking on that false spirit and operating in it.

I believe that people who are under this kind of spirit, unknowingly, have the opportunity to hear the truth.  Most will reject the truth, because they believe the lies in their hearts.  God is not a God of spiritual manifestations.  Yet this venue makes it the basic premise of salvation.  The more manifestations - whether it be healing, casting out demons, tongues, or getting "slain in the spirit", laughing, dancing, jerking, feelings of fire, etc ad nauseum  -  are to soothe, titillate, and excite the flesh.  You are taught that the more you "feel", the closer to God you are.

Jesus said, Blessed are those who believe but do not see.  Faith in Him is the foundation of salvation, not seeing, feeling, falling, and the host of other manifestations that satan is using to get people into major deception.

The kind of "salvation" that is dependant on manifestations and false doctrine/theology is not "knowing" Jesus. It is another gospel.  Therefore, He will say to those people - get away from Me, I never knew you.

shalom, nana

shalom, malky,  ;D


I think they're verses that just illustrate further what PR above here mentions:  "...mouth (or lip) service, and not heart service..."


The verses illustrate how its easy to masquerade as a follower of Jesus.


I wonder, Chris, why were you asking the question?


The verses don't intimate it, exactly, but again, it's really about the love question.  

The distinictions between what happens when we love, as opposed to when we just "try" to love, or, perhaps, just try to copy.

Jesus is just drawing the distinction between the Real McCoy and the counterfeit.

Good lessons there for all of us.

The "religion" we have in Jesus is one of the few, or probably the only one, where love is at the very nexus of it all - confounding the angels as well as satan himself.

What we do springs from that love we have for Him(which He gives us in the first place, of course - He loved us first).  All other - or any other, action, or behaviour, is counterfeit.


In fact, I think, in the New Testament especially, but certainly in the Old Testament(Deuternonmy , for instance), love, and profound love, is the very basis of it all.

I don't think any other "religion" boasts such a central, deep seated, continuing theme.

Which is wonderfully liberating, b/c all other religions ultimately rely upon man's righteousness - the things that he does.

Whereas our knowledge in Jesus relies on absolutely nothing that we can do, to save ourselves - it's all pointless, futile, useless.

Actually, our "faith" is quite opposite to the rest of the world's.

AMEN SYMPHONY!!

Sister Nana, I really don't know much about the people or ministries you mentioned. I have seen and heard a little bit about Binny Hinn.

I saw a MAJOR ISSUE in your post that jumped off the page at me. It, alone, is what I concentrated on. Jesus Christ is, was, and always will be ALMIGHTY GOD, THE CREATOR!! Jesus Christ did take the form of a man, walk this earth, and die for us on the CROSS, BUT HE WASN'T JUST A MAN!! Jesus Christ was NOT created, nor was HE made into a god (little "g"). Jesus Christ IS GOD, and HE Lives today, yesterday to infinity, and tomorrow to infinity. I won't judge any of the people or ministries you mentioned, mainly because I don't know what they teach and believe.

HOWEVER, I will say with all boldness and bluntness that we should ignore and turn off anyone who denies that Jesus Christ is VERY GOD. It is blasphemy is say that Jesus Christ was a brother of Lucifer, created, or somehow elevated to something HE was not before. Jesus Christ always was and always will be ALMIGHTY GOD. This is a very simple test Christians should and can use. Anyone who teaches otherwise is working for the devil. It's just as simple as that.

I don't think that the bold statement above should cause any strife or division in THE BODY OF CHRIST. If you are a real Christian, you know that Jesus is GOD. If you don't know or believe that Jesus is GOD, you are not a Christian - just as simple and blunt as that. When one uses the name of JESUS, they are using the name of GOD. If someone is doing something for or in the name of a JESUS who is not GOD, they ARE NOT working for GOD.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I Peter 1:18-19  Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Amen brother and Another Amen to Symphony,



Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Joh 10:30  I and my Father are one.

1Jo 5:7  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

BEP,-----thanks for the instructions on how to use the quote thingy.  I haven't had the chance to experiment with it but I will do so first chance I get. However, what's a clipboard?  I will have to learn how to "paste" also.  Sorry I'm very computer illiterate.  Seems as if I'm always in a hurry to do or say something and never have the time to just experiment with it.


I know God said, "I never knew you" in Matt: 7-23.  He also said somewhere in the OT that He knew all of us before we were born, too, even though it probably doesn't have anything to do with these 3 vs from Matthew.  Apparently He was speaking to those at the great white throne judgement where none of those are saved (Matt. 25:41-46).  It also brings to mind the Pharisees. They were sticklers in following the letter of the law.  Jesus told the people to listen to them because they preached the truth, but not to do what they (the Pharisee's) did.  They knew the truth but were deceitful and devious in wanting to bind others to the letter of the law.  Here, I believe Jesus was speaking of the heart condition.  The Pharisees would allow someone to die on the Sabbath----------what kind of a heart is this?  I also think our precious Lord and Savior came to teach some common sense (which, apparently some of us lost along the way).  It seems as if allinall kinda hit the nail on the head with "professing" and "knowing".  That was good.  I think, then, that there must be those who know nothing about being saved but have the heart of God and do all the things that Jesus asked us to do.  Also, there must be those who know about being saved but don't have the heart of God. They just play-act as BEP said.  As I type this I'm ending up answering my own question, I think!!

I've listened to Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, and some of the others who were mentioned and have to disagree about them preaching another gospel. No one is perfect (yet) and we all make mistakes.  I've read a couple of J. Meyer's books and they were a blessing to me.  I've also read some of Hinn's books-------------they blessed me, too.  I don't consider any of these books to be bad fruit.  They preached the Word of God.  I do know denominations point a finger at each other accusing and judging.  Some of the people you spoke of are AG and Four Square pentacostals.  I've listened to the Crouches for years and have been blessed.  I've never heard any of these people preach that salvation was based on manifestations.  I learned so much from them about the heart condition of people.  And about deliverance, I tend to agree with you here, at least partially.  That's a whole other topic, though.  

Symphony, I ask questions in order to learn.  I like to hear what others believe and why.  I liked what you had to say, too.  One of my problems/questions is that there are different denominations because they interpret differently.  This really, really bothers me.  Sometimes I think we all should have the same interpretation and, then, sometimes I think God gives each of us the interpretation based on where we are in Him.  I know what I just said is problematic, also. This, too, could be a whole other topic with pros and cons.

Anyway, here's what my bible (NAS) says-------Matt. 7 vs 1-6 is about judging others; 7-12 is about encouraging to pray;  13-23 is about ways contrasted and fruits contrasted; and 24-29 is about the two foundations.

Some people believe one can lose their salvation and some believe you can't.  It's all in the interpretation of the bible.  I know that if I get stuck in a snowstorm and get rescued (saved), I can later choose to go right back, maybe years later, thinking there won't be a storm and end up perishing.

There could also be other implications to these verses according to Calvin's doctrine.  I had never heard about his doctrine until recently---------believe it or not-------duh, like where have I been all my life. ;D :-X






 
 

Brother Chris,

You are most welcome. When you drag your mouse over a portion of text, right click, and choose "copy" from the command menu, the selected text is temporarily stored in what's called the "clipboard". When you click where you want the text, right click, and give the command "paste", it takes what is stored in the "clipboard" and pastes it where your cursor is.

Reference the people and the ministries mentioned, I really don't know what they believe or teach. Sister Nancy was talking about people who don't believe Jesus is God, nor do they teach Jesus is God. I don't know if those people or ministries fit that or not, but I do know that Jesus Christ is the only way to be saved and is most obviously God. There are huge ministries that teach Jesus was just a man, or just a prophet, or just a brother of the devil, a fallen angel, and was made into a god with a little "g". As an example, Islam believes Jesus was a lesser prophet than Mohamed. They claim that Allah is the same God we worship, but he couldn't be since they don't recognize Jesus as God. There are large ministries that I do know about that teach we can be elevated to "gods", just like Jesus, if we believe in and practice what they teach. For some of these groups, you never find out the truth until you ask specific questions about Jesus:

1.  Is Jesus Almighty God?
2.  Was Jesus created?
3.  Who is Jesus?
4.  Was Jesus just a man, a prophet, or a great teacher?
5.  Is Jesus Christ the Creator?

Answers -

1.  YES.
2.  NO.
3.  Our Living Lord and Saviour, ALMIGHTY GOD.
4.  NO.
5.  YES.

Any other answers would either have to be based upon something other than the Holy Bible or completely ignore large parts of the Holy Bible. This would involve Salvation issues that most Christians would definitely contend for.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 124:8  Our help is in the name of the LORD, who made heaven and earth.

cris wrote:
I've listened to Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, and some of the others who were mentioned and have to disagree about them preaching another gospel. No one is perfect (yet) and we all make mistakes.  I've read a couple of J. Meyer's books and they were a blessing to me.  I've also read some of Hinn's books-------------they blessed me, too.  I don't consider any of these books to be bad fruit.  They preached the Word of God.

nana:
When Paul said that satan comes masquerading as an angel of light, he was talking about those who would have an element of truth wrapped around deception.

When people like Hinn, Meyers, and the Crouches teach a taste of truth, that is the hook to get you to listen, to believe the lie.  satan has always spoken the truth with a twist [Eve].  This is the corrupt tree that Jesus is talking about in Matt 7:15-20.

If Hinn, Meyer, and the Crouches do not believe that Jesus is God Almighty, we are warned in God's Word to get away from them.  Jesus said - if you are not for Me, you are against Me.  You cannot believe a lie about Jesus - no matter what words come out of your mouth - you are preaching another gospel and do not have the truth.  It is contaminated and unholy.

shalom, nana

The LORD SAID ?if they preach JESUS CHRIST and THE CROSS THEY ARE FRIEND .It does not mean they are BORN OF GOD .But we MUST BE VERY CAREFUL with our WORDS .THEY CAN GIVE US and others LIFE OR DEATH . THANK GOD ?HE LOOKS AT US AS KIDS or we would be in trouble a lot .AT least I would .I could havemade my name MR mistakes ,as  have made a lot .Hopefully ,I am starting to catch on ?

Sister Nana,

I think that I might have a channel on my television with some of these pastors and ministries. I stay so busy with my own Bible studies and the forum that I really don't know much about them.

I am curious, as others might be, do you have a site you could share for this kind of information? What someone teaches, specifically about Jesus, would be KEY, CRITICAL information about that ministry. If they deny Jesus Christ as being Almighty God, they would be nothing but false teachers working against the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. Not only would they be false teachers, they would be committing blasphemy.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 6:10  Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

Hi BEP,

I'm partially experimenting with the quote thing.  We'll see how it works out.  Anyway Paul and Jan Crouch started Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN) about 30 years ago.  It's 24/7 programming.  Obviously, some programs are better than others.  I started watching TBN over 20 years ago but have not watched it recently.  I used to love to watch "Praise the Lord" at 10 PM every night.  Jan and Paul always hosted but over the years things change.  Someone else hosts now and it varies as to who does.  I learned so much during those years and I NEVER EVER heard any of them say Jesus Christ was not God.  I wouldn't have watched TBN if they had.  At times, TBN kept me sane and focused on Jesus Christ.  I can't even begin to name all of the programs.  I think you could just type in TBN in your search window and get to their website from there.  TBN is on the DishSatellite Ch. 260 and on various cables.  Some of the names are Jack Hayford, Rod Parsley, Oral Roberts, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, Juniata Bynum, Dwight Thompson, Dottie Rambo, Mike Perky, Dr. Cherry, Myles Monroe, T.D. Jakes and many, many more.  Most of the people are pentecostal.  Jan and Paul both come from families who were missionaries and pentecostal.  Granted, Ken Copeland  has a daily program. He's a prosperity preacher.  I don't watch him because I don't believe in that teaching.  Yes, Paul and Jan believe in the gifts of the spirit, tongues, interpretation of tongues, prophecy, etc.

BEP-------a long time ago God told me to extract the good and let go of what wasn't.  Everyone disagrees with what someone else says on occasion.  I don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

You will have to judge for yourself.  On Sunday (most of the day) they record and broadcast sermons from all over the U.S.  These are Baptist as well as Pentecostal and probably other denominations.

A word of warning, if you've never seen Jan Crouch, please don't let the pink hair turn you off.  There have been many negative comments about Jan's make-up and pink hair over the years but she has the heart of Jesus. She grows on people. She has just recently been cured of colon/lung cancer and gives God the glory for it.  BEP, she's about 68 years old and Paul is around 70.

cris

Glad to be of help.  The first 3 links are specific to Benny Hinn, the next two to Joyce Meyer, and the last two links have many articles exposing false teachers, false teachings, and false prophecies [including the Crouches who promote this stuff on TBN like a flood of deception].

http://www.afcministry.com/Benny_Hinn.htm

http://www.myfortress.org/BennyHinn.html

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/benny_hinn.htm

http://www.myfortress.org/JoyceMeyer.html

http://www.pfo.org/preacher.htm

http://www.cephasministry.com/evangelists_2.html

http://www.seekgod.ca/index.htm

1 Tim 6:3 If anyone teaches otherwise, and does not consent to wholesome words (those of our Lord Jesus Christ), and to the doctrine according to godliness,
4 he is proud, knowing nothing. He is sick concerning doubts and arguments, from which comes envy, strife, evil speakings, evil suspicions,
5 meddling, of men whose minds have been corrupted and deprived of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness. Withdraw from such.

Shalom, nana

Brother Cris,

I really don't care much about denominational tags and names, nor would I want doctrinal differences to be a negative influence on fellowship between brothers and sisters in Christ.

The Statement of Faith that Christians Unite uses for free services to thousands of Christian web sites around the world is an excellent measurement of who I call Brothers and Sisters in Christ:
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These are Salvation issues. I enjoy it when Christians can have pleasant discussions about differences, but I don't enjoy wars between Christians who share the same Lord and Saviour, JESUS CHRIST, Almighty God, THE CREATOR.

The Statement of Faith above is really a basic description of the Gospel of the Grace of God, THE GOOD NEWS! No two Christians have 100% agreement in everything. Simply put, if they share the same Critical Salvation Issues, they are Brothers and Sisters in Christ. Maybe someone else has a better term than "Critical Salvation Issues", but that's what I'll call it for lack of a better term. These are the issues that every Christian should boldly proclaim as the unquestioned truth every day of their lives. I would also argue, debate, and boldly contend for these issues with a completely clear conscience.

I would not have the same strong feelings about contending over doctrinal differences that can spoil friendship and fellowship between brothers and sisters in Christ. So, I don't want to be sucked into a war over gifts, tongues, and other "Non Critical Salvation Issues". I'm hoping and praying that I said this clearly and correctly, especially in a way that God would want me to. Denominational tags, labels, and ETC. mean nothing if you are already resting in the Mighty Hands of Jesus Christ and are members of the church not made with human hands, THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST! Man's labels and tags will be left behind, useless, and meaningless when we go HOME to spend eternity with Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour forever.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Titus 2:11-14  For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

cris wrote:
a long time ago God told me to extract the good and let go of what wasn't.  Everyone disagrees with what someone else says on occasion.  I don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

nana:
Nowhere in the Bible are we taught that God expects us to dig through the garbage can to pick out Histruth.  Jesus said if the tree is corrupt, no good fruit can come of it.  He was referring to false teachers and false prophets.  All of the names you listed are one or the other are both.  We are called to withdraw [1 Tim 6:3-5]

I an across an interesting article awhile back about throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

It seems the saying originated back in the Victorian days when baths were only done once a year   :-X  One tub full of water for the whole family.  Dad started, then mom, and on down the list of kids - baby was always last.  By the time the baby was "bathed", the water was so dirty that you couldn't tell what was baby and what was dirty water.  Hence the saying, don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

You cannot mix truth with deception, you cannot make the unholy, holy - you only contaminate the truth.

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean [thing] out of an unclean? not one.

Eze 44:23 And they shall teach my people [the difference] between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.

1Cr 5:6 Your glorying [is] not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

1Cr 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Gal 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

shalom, nana

Mat 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Because we must be born again to have the LORD know us as HIS .You see the power to do these works are in the name of JESUS CHRIST .That is how they did them .They had FAITH in the name .NOT in the LORD .They never in there heart Gave HIM GLORY and honor .Nor did these things for HIM .They were self righteous .Every thing they did was for them .
Because you see ,everything we do must be out of LOVE .That is why I believe it to be a sad thing ,for the body not to walk in power.Because the kingdom of heaven ,is with in your heart . And with out us fasting and letting the holy spirit lead us ?we are not where we could be as a people born of GOD .
Mat 5:6  Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
I think this vs.can be taken 2 fold .Fasting and a normal desire ,which our spirit has .

BEP,

I offer my apology if I offended in any way.  My intention was to describe as clearly as possible my experience.  I believe much of what people say is taken out of context, but that's just my opinion.  All I can say is that I just praise God for His protection over me, if all of these people mentioned are so ungodly.  

I did read some of the information posted.  I read much of it awhile back.  Luke 6:42 came to mind about taking the log out of your own eye before taking the speck out of your brother's eye.  It's just my opinion, but I think articles like that constitute slander and judgmentalism.

Sorry I was ignorant about labels, too. I won't mention them again. :-X

cris




   

cris wrote:
It's just my opinion, but I think articles like that constitute slander and judgmentalism.

nana:
I am curious as to how the words that are quoted from these people themselves about Jesus Christ and His redemptive work on the cross that are in conflict with Biblical Truth, constitutes slander and judgmentalism.

The Bible instructs and mandates us to bring those who are in opposition to it's truth in the open and expose them as enemies of the Gospel - which Paul did time after time.

I try to be very careful in judging other ? It is so dangerous to misjudge a person ? But if they preach JESUS CHRIST and the cross they are friend ,maybe they are not born again ??? Who can say ? I did not get to here over night and I still have a ways to go . But as I watch people ,I see changes .I see many growing in TRUTH in a short time . The LORD works in different ways .No certain way . I see some very wonderful changes at different sites .It is really a blessing as some sites with little or NO help from me grow in great love .I really love to see this .We are all in a growing process.I hope I am /

I guess my only answer is that if one was there, and one heard these things, then one must do whatever God commands one to do.  I wasn't there, and I didn't hear these things.  If I repeat the negative statements written about others, not having heard it directly, the bible would call me a gossip.  

I won't be making any further comments on this subject.





 

cris wrote:
If I repeat the negative statements written about others, not having heard it directly, the bible would call me a gossip.  

nana:
So then, Paul was a gossip.  He wrote about other people exposing false teachers to the churches at large and told them to read his letters to others.  So for 2000 years we are reading gossip, if we go by that definition  ;D

WOW all of history is just gossip!  :P
 Cris i dont like  the TBN crowd BUT Tbn has been in part a blessing to Mom who is 81 and cant get out. If the local church was doing their job she wouldn't 'need' the likes of TBN.... so  i will 'throw rocks' at everyone :-X

John 7:24

24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
KJV
 We should not judge Jan via her "pink hair" but we should be aware of Pauls "pay off" to his accuser. And the mass of funds they have collected. The same as we would for the small town preacher .... if ya heard he was stepping out on his wife the truth would show up and he should be judged... the scripture lies out a plan for such things.... Sandy Patti  is a wonderfull singer she is an adultous... both statments are true.  I am a sinner saved by grace... I do not want my life plastered across the TV.....

For the last 2000 years, the disciples, including Paul have had their lives exposed on the pages of Scripture.  "Somehow" they have held up just fine.  Integrity, righteousness, and holy living before God is what counts.

1 Tim 5:20 Those who sin, rebuke before all, so that the rest also may fear.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Where in the NT are the daily lives of the deciples exposed?  We can plainly see King Davids life his many great sins are listed murder and all...

 I thought the  Gosples as we know them were laid out well after the deaths of the guys..

The thing about Mom and TBN that drives me NUTS is Mom and Dad were often 'home mission' pastors. in the 50s that ment NO MONEY and yet she sends $$$ to the 'big guys' I have pleaded for her to support another home misson some place.

Maybe Malky, i did not make my self clear the TBN crowd are thiefs and crooks who use the Word to rob and steal....   :P

And how does that make you feel Sis?   ;D BTW, I agree.   :)

Since we're on the subject:  >:(

I print and distribute, free of charge, 5,000 newspapers every month. Of that amount, about 750 are sent to prisoners around the US.  Advertising in the paper covers about 1/3 of the cost to produce it, and nothing of the mailing.

While Benny is bringing in 120 MILLION+ a year, I can't entice ONE...not even ONE....Christian reader to give $2 a month to send papers to two prisoners.

Guess I'm not outrageous enough, or don't have a feather designed to tickle ears.

It's disgusting.

Like drowning in a strong, hot, cup of coffee!  ;D

I could handle that right about now.  I got the flu bug and I really wanna squash it... :'(

Did some one say coffee? I need a cup!
I also agree about the TBN crowd. :P :P

Brother Cris,

You didn't say anything at all to offend me in any way. I only mentioned men's labels and tags as part of this discussion. I don't really believe that anyone in this thread is trying to offend or hurt anyone's feelings. I know that is the last thing I would want to do. I know this is a very serious discussion, and I'm trying to learn about some of the issues raised.

Brother, I hope that I didn't say anything to offend you or hurt your feelings. I do find the subject matter here to be so serious that I want to find out the truth for myself. I'm from a family full of preachers and missionaries. I would have to say that I'm ignorant about television ministries. We do our own Bible studies in my family, so I guess the best term for me would be "spoiled and sheltered", being spiritually fed since before I could talk. I give thanks for that.

Brother, I would simply ask you to keep an open mind and try to learn about this as I have decided to do. In fact, I prayed about this, and I want to find out the truth for myself. When I listen to television shows, it's usually for Christian music. I already have several ministers in my own family, and I have a list of Bible study topics for my personal Bible study that I probably won't live long enough to complete.

Brother, if I said anything to offend you, please forgive me. I just want to discover the truth about this for myself.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 Corinthians 1:18  For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Evangelist,

Brother, you reminded me of something I promised to do and I forgot. I told you I would try to help with your financial burdens in your ministry, and I will. I'm sorry that I forgot. I have received a blessing from your ministry, and I pray that God will provide the help you need.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Matthew 11:28-30  Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Sister Reba,

It's great to see you back on the forum. I know that you've had some big trials to go through, and you have been in my prayers.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Hebrews 12:2  Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Thanks Mr Bepster!  :)

Your cards are a blessing

BEP,  

Don't ask me how, but I misunderstood.  I thought I offended but didn't really know how I did that.  I thought, that you thought, the posts might be getting into an argument mode, so, I said I wouldn't respond for that reason.  

I wouldn't intentionally offend-----------for sure!!

I will definitely keep an open mind.  Thanks, BEP.

God bless,
cris

I misunderstood BEP's post, that's why I said I wouldn't comment on this topic again.

ALLINALL---I hope you're feeling a little better today.

Reba-------I didn't understand your post about Paul C. "paying off" his accuser.  I've never heard anything about this.  The statement about Sandi Patti-------I don't know if this is true, either.  All I know is we are all sinners. But, WE tend to decide one sin is worse than another.  If someone calls themselves a Christian, and chooses to live in adultery, then I wonder how they can call themselves a Christian.  God will judge them.  If this one should be a Pastor, then I believe he isn't fit to pastor according to the Word of God.  If he won't step down, then the elders must make him step down.

I don't think ALL history is gossip.  I don't think all of it's true either.  Ouch, was that a rock that just hit me in the head? ;D

MALKYEL---------I don't think the Apostle Paul was a gossip.  Others were accountable to him, and on and on.  TRUST is the word here.  One has to "earn" trust.  If I repeat what I hear, or what is written without knowing and trusting, then I'm guilty of gossiping.  Even if I repeat what someone tells me about another, whether true or untrue, I'm considered a gossip.  It seems to me the "accusers" should be using the same platform.  Why don't they have TV ministries?  Some level ground is needed here.  It also seems to me they would be a lot more effective in proving their case if they were willing to expose their own lives across the TV screen.  

I don't know for how long these accusers have been rebuking those TV ministries whom they think are sinning, but I'm assuming it's been a long time.  What good has it done in reference to "so the rest also may fear?"  Before I'd ever expose and/or accuse anyone, I'd have to "know" they were guilty, and not guilty because I took what they said out of context.  Then, with the bible and prayer, ask God what he'd have me do.  The biblical mandate to bring those in opposition to the "truth" as enemies of the Gospel was local. EVERYONE'S life was exposed for EVERYONE to see. The bible isn't gossip and what Paul told others to do wasn't gossip, either.  We need to compare apples with apples.

From what I've seen, every denomination has their interpretation and they think their interpretation is the correct one.  There wouldn't be all these different denominations if this wasn't true. Is somebody right and somebody wrong?  Is everybody right?  Is everybody wrong?  All I can offer anyone, is to let them know Jesus loves them, and died for them.  I also let them know I'm willing to help them.  I know lots of Christians who would walk past someone (even someone they know from the same church) who needed help and say, "Well, I'm sorry to hear that.  I'll be praying for you." They don't offer any help, when they could.  I know first hand because it's happened to me.  And, they've been from different denominations.   Before someone tears down a TV ministry, let them take a good look at what's going on locally. Reba mentioned this, too.  I'd say the local church needs to get itself in order.  TBN probably wouldn't have been on the air as long as it has, if the local church was doing its job.  So,TBN is doing God's work, too.  Many, who otherwise would never have heard of the gospel, heard, and were saved because of TBN.

Oh, the baby and the bathwater---------I cannot imagine a mom or dad (Victorian or not) putting a baby into filthy water.  Common sense says one would bathe the baby first, for many different reasons.  I dunno, maybe the only people who have common sense are us comtemporary ones.  Actually, I'm surprised any of us made it this far, considering all the bacteria in our ancestors bathwater. :-X  ;D