Open Theism, Does God know or not?

[Petro]

posted by sonofaslan,
Ok, first, your distinction between sin in  general and the sin of unbelief, as if a) this distinction is legit and b) the sin of unbelief is so heinous but all other sin is perfectly acceptable to God is an abomination. All sin is pure wickedness and God can abide NONE of it. And unbelief is no WORSE a sin than adultery or murder. In fact, the mother of ALL sin is pride.[/quoted]


All manner of sin, can be forgiven, even the sin of Blashpemy against the Son of man, but blashemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this life nor the one to come.

The sin of unbelief, in the face of the teaching testimony of the Holy Spirit, will not be forgiven, if one does not believe in this life, there is no other sin, which cannot be forgiven, however, all other sins are not the issue in this age.

Second, show me anywhere in Scripture where this distinction you make between the supposed “sin of unbelief” and all other sin. It isn’t here. Sin is sin. Period.

Obviously you've never read Rom 11, Heb 3 and 4.

This is it, I have discussed this with you, to a conclusion.

I have given you what you desired, an answer.

There it is take it or leave it.

Good luck,  

Petro

SonofAslan,

[SonofAslan]

The sin of unbelief, in the face of the teaching testimony of the Holy Spirit, will not be forgiven, if one does not believe in this life, there is no other sin, which cannot be forgiven, however, all other sins are not the issue in this age

Nice interpretation, but it isn’t Scriptural. It is your opinion. Unsubstantiated by scriptural support. I’m not saying I disagree with you completely, but you act as if  the “sin of unbelief” is a special category of sin all to itself. This is false and unbiblical. I have read Romans 11, and Hebrews 3 and 4 numerous times and over and over again. You may INTERPRET then to categorize “unbelief” as some special unforgivable sin, but that’s just an opinion, not Scripture carved in stone. I’m even inclined to recognize it as plausible and not too problematic. But your claim that everyone who disagrees with you is contradicting Scripture is false. And the last statement is false and heretical. If you think sin is ok with God you are GREATLY mistaken. And if you think there is one criteria for salvation now and a different one later, you are again GREATLY mistaken, and THAT’S the heresy of Dispensationalism.

The problem is, you have a certain view, and you’re going to make sure Scripture fits it. You think God has ordained that we either go to heaven or hell with no response from us, so you come to passages like Peter “God does not desire than ANY should perish” and force your already preconceived view on it. You already believe works play no role, so when you read James or Matthew, you have to conform these passages to your already preconceived  view. That’s not sin. It’s normal. But it leads to a distorted view of Scripture, and it leads to errors like Calvinism and Armenianism. It’s a shame, because I think you’re a nice guy who is deeply committed to the Lord. Both of those are very good things. I just wish you could recognize the same in others, and recognize the difference between what Scripture says and what you THINK it says.

You’ve come to see particular interpretations of Scripture as being the same as Scripture itself. That’s a tragedy.

Just as there is a hierarchy of good works moving from particular acts of kindness (e.g. feeding the hungry) to belief/repentance/baptism to love, so also is there a hierarchy of sin which moves from particular evil deeds (e.g. murder) to unbelief to pride/arrogance/self love. My gripe with your categorization isn’t that you’ve turned something into a sin which isn’t a sin. Of course unbelief is a sin. My gripe is that you separate it from all other sin as if they are unconnected. This leads you into error in moral understanding and in Scriptural exegesis.

This is it, I have discussed this with you, to a conclusion.

I’m truly sorry you feel that way, because I’ve come to respect you as someone who is deeply committed to serving Christ as he understands him. It’s a shame, as I said above, that you can’t recognize the same in others who disagree with you. You really need to distinguish between what you think Scripture says and what it in fact says. Because as it stands, you seem to think everyone who views Scripture differently than you is a heretic.

I could consider you a friend if you could make that distinction. As it is, you aren’t open to it. That makes me truly sad. Remember my prayer in the other thread? It still applies. I wish God’s greatest possible blessings on you and your family and the rest of your life.

[Petro]

The sin of unbelief, in the face of the teaching testimony of the Holy Spirit, will not be forgiven, if one does not believe in this life, there is no other sin, which cannot be forgiven, however, all other sins are not the issue in this age

Nice interpretation, but it isn’t Scriptural. It is your opinion. Unsubstantiated by scriptural support. I’m not saying I disagree with you completely, but you act as if  the “sin of unbelief” is a special category of sin all to itself. This is false and unbiblical. I have read Romans 11, and Hebrews 3 and 4 numerous times and over and over again. You may INTERPRET then to categorize “unbelief” as some special unforgivable sin, but that’s just an opinion, not Scripture carved in stone.

What makes it carved in stone, is Jesus words of Mk 16:16.


He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

But your claim that everyone who disagrees with you is contradicting Scripture is false.

This statement you make is not only false, but foolish, I never made such a claim.

It only shows you are "vehemently against the word of God", the matter is always revealed by those who oppose the truth.




Petro

[Petro]

posted by sonofaslan,

We can only respond to God’s grace because God’s grace is given to us FIRST. Without God’s grace, we could not respond to Him.

I am amazed, you argue this point in this way.

Grace is not a gift at all, it is the means by which the gift is produced thru faith, and even that faith is granted, thru repentance.

Repentance is not something which can originate within any man of himself, nor can  be produced in himself, as one would pump watert out of a well. It is a divine gift, you can't see this, because, your theology is based on the semi-peliagianistic teaching that, it is a product of man's works.

I will give another scripture, so that you can reject it, also;

Acts 5
30  The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31  Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Who is in view at these verses, where it says "Israel"??

Did that explain the difference? Armenianism? I don’t know anything that about really, except that it’s a reaction to Calvin’s extremes. But all reactions tend to fall into the opposite error.

Armenianism is the protestant version of Semi-Pelegianism, you shouldn't even concern yourself, with another heretical view, it has no value, in as much as it will not bring you into a closer relation with God.

I don't expect you to agree with what I said, but it should be understandable. And I think it should be clear that it contains no heresy.

So, you say..

Petro

[Petro]

SonofAslan,

Here is another verse, you can cross out of your bible;  maybe I gave it to you already..

2 Tim 2
24  And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25  In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;


I must admit, it isn't easy being patient, with you all.

Petro

[SonofAslan]

Why should you have a problem being patient with us? I have no problem being patient with you? In fact, as I have stated, I have come to respect you, even though I disagree with you.


Petro,

Mark 6:12
They went out and preached that people should repent.


Why preach that people should repent if they have  no choice?

Matthew 11:20
Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not

On what basis does Jesus criticize these cities if they had no choice?


Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

How can they be commanded to repent if they have no choice?

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:


How can God command all men to repent, when we have no choice in whether to repent or not? Ared you saying God commands us to do things while making it impossible that we do them?

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

How can God be willing that all men come to repentance if He chooses who will and who will not repent? Does God contradict His own will?

There are many more, Petro. I do not reject your passages. I just do not interpret them the way you do. I put those passages together with these passages and see them as being complementary. God grants us repentance as the means of salvation. Does this mean we have no choice whether to repent or not? No, but it means if God had not granted it, repentance would effect nothing. We choose whether to repent, thus takingf hold of the gift, or to not repent, thus rejecting the gift.

If you have a different view of these passages and others where repentance is commanded, please share it.

[Nostalghia]

Hail Aslan, King of Narnia!!!!!

*Lion's roar heard in the distance

[Petro]

posted by sonofaslan as reply #
Petro,

Mark 6:12
They went out and preached that people should repent.


Why preach that people should repent if they have no choice?

Two reasons:
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
and the second,
That those who had been elected and predestinated, from before the foundations of the world (the sheep), should hear and believe.  No one knows who they are, I dare  to say,  they don't even know, before they are saved. And certainbly the Evil One doesn't either, this is why, he will kill, anyone and everyone, he can,  in hopes of snaring one of them.
[quoted]
Matthew 11:20
Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not

On what basis does Jesus criticize these cities if they had no choice?

Note, what He did in these cities;  "mighty works", they, Chorazin and Bethsaida,  didn't want neither desired, to repent, and furthermore, Jesus refers to Tyre and Sidom who had fallen under the judgement of God, because of wickedness and idolatry, stating that,  had these"mighty works" (which He refers to) would have repented in sackcloth and ahes, long ago,

But these would not repent after seen this miracles, because of their  "unbelief and hardness of heart"

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

How can they be commanded to repent if they have no choice?

There is no choice to this matter, God commands it, period.
The natural man, reasons in himself;  Whay do I need to repent?
I am not as bad as that man over there or this guy over here, this is the wisdom of the world, which is used to analyze, Gods will.  
"The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain."
This is a good verse;  God,.........commandeth all men every where to repent:

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:


How can God command all men to repent, when we have no choice in whether to repent or not? Ared you saying God commands us to do things while making it impossible that we do them?

I am not saying anything other than what scripture says;
Repentance is not mouthing words and executing rituals, true repentance involves the will. and scripture states:
Joining a church, shaking the priests hand, and giving a testimony, nor being wtare baptized has yet to save anyone.

God who knows the heart, works in every man he draws to the truth of His Word, to will His will, and do of his good pleasure, it occurs even while yet in unbelif.
Phil 2
13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

{quote]
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

How can God be willing that all men come to repentance if He chooses who will and who will not repent? Does God contradict His own will?

This is a mystery.. I don't question his motives, the same Word which speaks to all, speaks to me, what is plain is that the Word says;  "It is He who grants repentance"
This is plain (Acts 11:18, 2 Pet 3:9), He elects, predestinates, and judges because He is Soveriegn.....

There are many more, Petro. I do not reject your passages. I just do not interpret them the way you do. I put those passages together with these passages and see them as being complementary. God grants us repentance as the means of salvation.

I can't disgree with you stated above, He grants repentance to whom He wills to do grant it to, this plain as daylight.

Does this mean we have no choice whether to repent or not? No, but it means if God had not granted it, repentance would effect nothing.

Well, I am amazed you see this, if He does not grant repentance, how is works going to do obtain anything for you?, or Baptism, or observing sacramentals, or membership in an institution, etc.

We choose whether to repent, thus takingf hold of the gift, or to not repent, thus rejecting the gift.

I am not sure what you see, here, if you elaborated on this simplistic answer perhaps, I could comment, the gift is not in view herein, at this point.
The very Gospel which calls for repentance produces it.  This clearly seeing in the experience of the people of Nineveh (Jonah 3:5-10), when thewy heard the preaching of the Word of God, they truned to God, not seeking a gift, but seeking to be forgiven, because they believed the message.
The same is true of the men unto whom Peter preached on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:37-38), they were pricked in their heart, note at verse 38, they new nothing of a gift.  You know about a gift because you have the luxury of possessing a bible.
 

If you have a different view of these passages and others where repentance is commanded, please share it

.

Different views where repentance is commanded??

I don't have any different views other than those I have expressed in accordance to what the Word teaches.

My views won't change the truth, anyhow..




Blessings,  
Petro

[SonofAslan]

Repentance is not mouthing words and executing rituals, true repentance involves the will.

So we have a choice in whether we repent or not? I can decide? If it involves my will, I can choose it or reject it. If God forces me to do it, it doesn’t involve the will.

This is a mystery

If your view can't account for all of Scripture, it is false. If your view entails looking at 2 Peter and saying "It makes no sense". Your view is false.

That's it. i'm done.  God's blessing to you, Petro. I sincerely wish you all God's best.
Jim

[Petro]

Repentance is not mouthing words and executing rituals, true repentance involves the will.

So we have a choice in whether we repent or not? I can decide? If it involves my will, I can choose it or reject it. If God forces me to do it, it doesn’t involve the will.

Your ability to choses is not what you think it is, you think you chose to believe in Christ, when in fact this is not so.

The only think you can do is agree with God, you are a sinner, headed for an eternity in hell, and only when you come to this conclusion, will God give the gift of faith, to this individual.

This is a mystery

If your view can't account for all of Scripture, it is false. If your view entails looking at 2 Peter and saying "It makes no sense". Your view is false.

It is nonsense to say everyone must account for all scripture, obviouly you can't account for all scripture, since the just shall live by faith, from faith unto faith, if one could account for all scripture, there would be no need for faith, since his walk would be by sight.  This is why, you can't see this, you think, only when you see it plainly that only then it must be of god, so you allow yourself to be carried about by every wind of doctrine, including those that get regurgitated.

That's it. i'm done.  God's blessing to you, Petro. I sincerely wish you all God's best.
Jim

Well, I wouldn't want you to leave, with at least giving you a verse.

I suppose I shouldn't have saved it for you till now, but nevertheless here it is;


1 Cor 12
7  But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8  For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9  To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10  To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11  But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.


I am sure verse 9 above, means nothing to you, but unfortunately, it states, the opposite of what you want scripture to teach you.

But what can I say, it is God the Spirit that gives the gifts according to His will not ours.

God Bless, anyhow...

Petro

[pnotc]

"Two reasons:
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

This, doesn't actually answer SOA's question.  His question was not "why did they preach?", but why are they telling people they should, if they have no choice in the matter?  In your formulation, this makes no sense.  There is no reason why anyone should repent, only that they will.  To anyone not reading into the text, should is clearly an indication that repentance is conditional, that it is not forced.  Otherwise, it would just be a command to repent.  Those who were elected would do so and be saved, and those who weren't elected, would not and remain dead.  

"No one knows who they are, I dare  to say,  they don't even know, before they are saved. And certainbly the Evil One doesn't either, this is why, he will kill, anyone and everyone, he can,  in hopes of snaring one of them."

You posted this somewhere else, also, I showed you how illogical it is.  The elect are the elect are the elect.  If an elect dies before being saved and then goes to hell, he was never elect, and God was therefore wrong about who the elect are.  And, if no one knows who they are, how do you know that I'm not, or that SOA is not?  

"Note, what He did in these cities;  "mighty works", they, Chorazin and Bethsaida,  didn't want neither desired, to repent, and furthermore, Jesus refers to Tyre and Sidom who had fallen under the judgement of God, because of wickedness and idolatry, stating that,  had these"mighty works" (which He refers to) would have repented in sackcloth and ahes, long ago,"  

Note the emphasis I put on your quote.  You're violating your stated position.  What does their will have to do with it?  What do their wants or desires have to do with whether or not God chooses to save them?  Not a darn thing!  So why are you bringing it up?  

"But these would not repent after seen this miracles, because of their  "unbelief and hardness of heart" "

But per your theology, they are unbelieving and heard of heart because God made them that way.  He could have given them the faith they needed to repent, but did not.  Let me pose a question to you.  I know you have kids.  Would you upraid your 2 week old son for pooping on the floor, especially if you had told him before not to do it, and really, really didn't want him too?

"There is no choice to this matter, God commands it, period. "

Do you believe that the Word of God is effectual, and cannot be blocked by any human action or desire?

"The natural man, reasons in himself;  Whay do I need to repent?
I am not as bad as that man over there or this guy over here, this is the wisdom of the world, which is used to analyze, Gods will."

Perhaps it is, and perhaps it isn't.  I think you should reacquaint yourself with Romans 7.  
 
"This is a good verse;  God,.........commandeth all men every where to repent:"

Then why don't they?  Come on, if God, if the absolutely sovereign God of the universe COMMANDS all men to repent, why don't they?  How are they able to resist it and not repent?  

"This is a mystery.. I don't question his motives, the same Word which speaks to all, speaks to me, what is plain is that the Word says;  "It is He who grants repentance""

It is only a mystery because your theology does violence to the passage, as it does many others.  Lets re-examine the command verse above briefly.  You are left with only two reasonable options as to how men resist the command to repentance.  The first, the view that I hold, and I believe SOA holds, is that man's will is enabled by grace to respond to the offer of salvation by faith.  Man, in some manner, fashion or way, responds to the offer and he repents.  The second is your view, which is that man is completely unable to respond, and that it is all on God's side to effect repentance, faith and salvation (in no particular order).  

So, in your view, all men are commanded to repent by God, but prevented from doing so by God.  Doesn't that really mean that not all men are commanded to repent?  In all honesty, that verse only means that some are commanded to repent, and are forced to do so by God's irresistible grace.  So God's word is a lie now?  What about a house divided against itself?  It seems like God is both working for and against salvation.  

Now, you will surely respond by saying that it is not up to you to question God's motives or actions.  This is a straw-man argument, one intended to imply that I or SOA is doing just that.  In fact, we are not. We are pointing out the logical failings of your arguments and theology.  We are not questioning God, we are questioning you.  I know I've written those exact words to you before, and I'm sure they'll fall on the same deaf ears this time, as well.  So I have a challenge for you, if you're up to it.  Respond to my post without referencing me a single time, beyond quoting what I said.  Do not mention me, my beliefs, my actions or my postings from any other thread.  Try to respond to mine and SOA's points based solely on our arguments.  No taunts, no vague comments about questioning God or challenging his will.  It'll be interesting to see if you are able to do so.

[Saved_4ever]

For the little I have read.  Regarding petro's statment about unbelief.  It's stated time and time again but here's a good clincher for you.....Joh 3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Gee I don't know why would use silly folk think that unbelief has a large part in everything.  We won't even talk about Abraham and how his "faith" was counted for righteousness.

f your view can't account for all of Scripture, it is false.

Seriously SOA I love these comments from you.  They make me chuckle everytime.  Yer quite funny really.  Especially with all of your added things and blatent ignoring of some scripture.  Oh well guess it's that orthodox slant you were taught.

[SonofAslan]

S4E

You really should read the entire discussion before jumping in. You totally failed to grasp what the whole “unbelief” thing was about. No one has denied that we are saved through faith and we are damned through unbelief. Read everything in its entirety before commenting.

Further, you have no idea what Orthodoxy is and what I was taught. You guys really drive me nuts with this junk. I spent 25+ reading Scripture all alone. I was NOT Orthodox. I was NOT Catholic. I was a simple Christian who believed the only thing that mattered was what Scripture said. So I read it. And I read ONLY it. And I prayed, every night, as I read Scripture, that God would guide me. I did that for 25+ years. Every day. I missed maybe 3 days in over 25 years. And I didn’t read just one chapter a day. I read., And I read. And I read. No notes, no lights, no motor car. Not a single luxury. I looked to NO MAN for guidance in how I was to understand Scripture. In the words of Paul, “I did not confer with any human being” (Gal 1:15). I studied only the Word of God without a single outside resource. Not even a cross-reference. I wanted NOTHING to taint the Word. And you know what I came to believe? Exactly what the Orthodox Church teaches. I changed not a jot or a tittle of my belief when I converted. THAT’S the difference. Calvin isn’t my guide to Scripture. Neither is any other man. No Sunday School teacher. No pastor. Only the Word Itself and the Holy Spirit. Believe that if you will, but it is absolute truth. I would swear on something, but Scripture teaches us “Let your yes be yes and your no be no.” So I was taught what I believe by NO ONE. Not Orthodoxy. Not Calvin. Not Hal Lindsey. Not Tim LaHaye. Not Billy Graham. Not ANYONE. Purely from the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit, which if read honestly and sincerely will guide men “into all truth”. But your interpretations are so clouded by the “traditions of men” that you can’t see straight. Remove the log from your own eye, and then you will be able to see what Scripture itself says without all this junk you have obscured it with. So the truth is, S4E, that you haven’t got the first CLUE what I was taught. Why? Because you would rather be deceived. If you DID know what I was taught, then you would have to agree with Scripture, and THEN you couldn't stay in your comfortable deception where you can do whatever you like and God is obligated to save you because you parroted some "sinner's prayer" when you were 6 years old.

I have shown you the truth. I have warned you. If you reject the truth now, it is on your own head. (Ezekiel 33:9)

I'm sorry, but i'm getting a bit frustrated by the non-responsiveness of you Protestant types (with the exception of Petros -- at least HE deals with what I say, for the most part, instead of idiotic statements like "you really make me chuckle").

If the entirety of the argument you can make against me is “You really make me chuckle…but I guess that’s the orthodox slant you were taught” then I guess you really don’t have a Scriptural leg to stand on, do you.

[Petro]

pnotc posted Reply #40,

pnotc,

posted by Petro
"Two reasons:
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

This, doesn't actually answer SOA's question. His question was not "why did they preach?", but why are they telling people they should, if they have no choice in the matter? In your formulation, this makes no sense. There is no reason why anyone should repent, only that they will. To anyone not reading into the text, should is clearly an indication that repentance is conditional, that it is not forced. Otherwise, it would just be a command to repent. Those who were elected would do so and be saved, and those who weren't elected, would not and remain dead. [/quoted]


Lets look at SonofAslan's question, again;

posted by SonofAslan at reply #35


Petro,

Mark 6:12
They went out and preached that people should repent.


Why preach that people should repent if they have no choice?

I answered this, but I can, again, if you missed it, the answer is; "because God commands all  men everywhere to repent" Acts 17:30.

But the scripture has concluded that all are dead in sin, none can or will repent, and Jesus, says;

Men,  "loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (Jhn 3:17-21), this a present day truth.

Speaking of Israel He says, "This people have I formed for myself; they shall show forth my praise." (Isa 43:21)

I know you will say well this speaking specifically of the Nation of Israel, ......... this is why, these things sound illogical to you.

But the fact is the NT, clears this up, to them that can see.

The apostle Paul tells us in Eph 1, That the God and Father of the Lord Jesus, has chosen some in Him, having predestinated them unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (This is speaking of these whom He has give to Jesus) but of course those that prevert the Gosple will change this to mean, men chose God, by emphasizing and teaching thi, over that it is God, that does the chosing.

I say this is not only not true, it is illogical, because those who are made to hear and believe, are them the have been given hearing, and have been chosen of God to receive what they could never hear nor receive, without His divine intervention. You don't believe this,  since by your way of thinking, men produce the faith of themselves and it must include good works or they don't, and the emphasis is on good works, oh... yes I have heard it already, you don't believe the works themselves save, you they are only a part of salvation; I say bunk...........

I suggest to you, that is illogocal according to the scriptures, because they teach it is by faith and not works.
 

"No one knows who they are, I dare to say, they don't even know, before they are saved. And certainbly the Evil One doesn't either, this is why, he will kill, anyone and everyone, he can, in hopes of snaring one of them."

You posted this somewhere else, also, I showed you how illogical it is. The elect are the elect are the elect. If an elect dies before being saved and then goes to hell,

You reason this because you do not believe God is Soveriegn.

To your human understanding this sounds reasonable, unfortunately the mysteries of the Kingdom are given to be understood to His elect, and we understand it perfectly, this is why we believe the scriptures.

But I can see you undertand, what Satan understands, he knows that their is a seed of heirs to the promises of God out there somewhere, and because God has a hedge around those who walk according to his will (that is those who are subject to the Spirit), there are some that do not, and these whose works are  wood, hay, stubble; and he (the evil one) percieves these, maybe be vulnerable, so if he can cause their death, then he will have frusterated the plan of God.  

But since Gods plan was formulated from the begining, and He is Sovereign, the onus is on Him, to bring His plan to fruitition. We are confident He will, just as He has promised.  

You don't, but it is no, secret why that is..ou only believe what appeals to you.

We don't know who the sheep or the goats are, some sheep look like goats, until the lords cleans them up, so this is why we preach the Gosple, (the unsearchable riches of Christ) to all creatures.

he was never elect, and God was therefore wrong about who the elect are.

This last statement of yours, really shows your unbelief;

Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. (2 Tim 2:19)

And, if no one knows who they are, how do you know that I'm not, or that SOA is not?

Your own words give you away, I am not surprised you have to ask such a question.

You fall under one of two categories; The fact you insist you are one and cannot reconcile scripture., may  eliminate one, but they are;

1.  The unbeliever;  

"Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed." (1 Pet 2:7-8)

2. The babe in Christ;

 "For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
  But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." (Heb 5:13-14)

I trust you fall under the latter category, which is better than the former. I say this , Because what you have revealed herein, sure makes one wonder.

But then again, FAITH cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. (Rom 10:17)

The promises of God are to the seed of Abraham (not children of the flesh, but the children of ther promise), and only those with the faith of Abraham are counted for the seed (Rom (:

The angel who appeared to, and when speaking to Mary, said "and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. (Mat 1:21)

His people are   [color-Red]"All that the Father giveth me"[/color] according to Jesus. (Jhn 6:37)

And as I answered SOA, He chose to save those whom He saves by the foolishness of preaching. (1 Cor 1:21)

"Note, what He did in these cities; "mighty works", they, Chorazin and Bethsaida, didn't want neither desired, to repent, and furthermore, Jesus refers to Tyre and Sidom who had fallen under the judgement of God, because of wickedness and idolatry, stating that, had these"mighty works" (which He refers to) would have repented in sackcloth and ahes, long ago,"

Note the emphasis I put on your quote. You're violating your stated position. What does their will have to do with it? What do their wants or desires have to do with whether or not God chooses to save them? Not a darn thing! So why are you bringing it up?

"But these would not repent after seen this miracles, because of their "unbelief and hardness of heart" "

But per your theology, they are unbelieving and heard of heart because God made them that way. He could have given them the faith they needed to repent, but did not. Let me pose a question to you. I know you have kids. Would you upraid your 2 week old son for pooping on the floor, especially if you had told him before not to do it, and really, really didn't want him too?

Idolaters will never repent...since they think, they serve and worship the true God contrary and in the face of His known will.

"There is no choice to this matter, God commands it, period. "

Do you believe that the Word of God is effectual, and cannot be blocked by any human action or desire?

This is evident, the elect do not block Gods working in them, they welcome it and obtain the promise by faith, because of God's "effetcual" drawing/working in them.

"The natural man, reasons in himself; Whay do I need to repent?
I am not as bad as that man over there or this guy over here, this is the wisdom of the world, which is used to analyze, Gods will."

Perhaps it is, and perhaps it isn't. I think you should reacquaint yourself with Romans 7.

"This is a good verse; God,.........commandeth all men every where to repent:"

Then why don't they? Come on, if God, if the absolutely sovereign God of the universe

        Cont'd....

[Petro]

Cont'd.....................

COMMANDS

all men to repent, why don't they? How are they able to resist it and not repent?

It is given to some while not others, He is SOVEREIGN, You must frist accept this premise, instead of letting rub you the wrong way, this really is the issue, which prevents you from seeing or understanding these things.

Because He who knows the hearts of all men, sees, something, which cause Him, not to grant repentance,  putting  it the way scripture tells us it is;

We have already gone over this in another thread;

Rom 9
13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

And to your question; Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? vs 19

You need to read the rest of the Chapter.

I have already gone around circles with you on this.

"This is a mystery.. I don't question his motives, the same Word which speaks to all, speaks to me, what is plain is that the Word says; "It is He who grants repentance""

It is only a mystery because your theology does violence to the passage, as it does many others. Lets re-examine the command verse above briefly. You are left with only two reasonable options as to how men resist the command to repentance. The first, the view that I hold, and I believe SOA holds, is that man's will is enabled by grace to respond to the offer of salvation by faith. Man, in some manner, fashion or way, responds to the offer and he repents. The second is your view, which is that man is completely unable to respond, and that it is all on God's side to effect repentance, faith and salvation (in no particular order).

Hah..........So, just because you and SOA, hold to a certain view, this makes it the truth??  Thats a good one........I do enjoy a good chuckle here and there..

So, in your view, all men are commanded to repent by God, but prevented from doing so by God.

I never said all are preventede.  Your view is based on soemthing I never said at ALL.  

See what I am saying about you,                                      you simply want to be contentious for the sake of arguing.

Doesn't that really mean that not all men are commanded to repent?

Absolutely.

In all honesty, that verse only means that some are commanded to repent, and are forced to do so by God's irresistible grace.

Thats false..

 So God's word is a lie now?

According to you it is.

What about a house divided against itself? It seems like God is both working for and against salvation.

He is going to save His elect chosen, He is working to accomplish it, and will.

You do like to argue, you are  attributing words to me I never said; and you are being ridicules now, the verse reads:  

" commandeth all men every where to repent:",

for you to make such a statement and interpreting to mean soimething other than what it says, is to deny what the written word specifically states, no wonder you have such a hard time believing the Word of God.

Now, you will surely respond by saying that it is not up to you to question God's motives or actions. This is a straw-man argument, one intended to imply that I or SOA is doing just that. In fact, we are not. We are pointing out the logical failings of your arguments and theology. We are not questioning God, we are questioning you. I know I've written those exact words to you before, and I'm sure they'll fall on the same deaf ears this time, as well. So I have a challenge for you, if you're up to it. Respond to my post without referencing me a single time, beyond quoting what I said. Do not mention me, my beliefs, my actions or my postings from any other thread. Try to respond to mine and SOA's points based solely on our arguments. No taunts, no vague comments about questioning God or challenging his will. It'll be interesting to see if you are able to do so.

You sound like a frustrated  nut...wanting to argue what you really don't believe,  what you won't be satisifed until I  agree with you..??

Ssheeeeesh...............Whats wrong with you, anyhow..


Petro