Open Theism, Does God know or not?

[SonofAslan]

Our view is illogical, yet you continue to say that God commands all men to repent, and then prevents some of them from doing so.

So God prevents people from doing that which He commands they do?

In case you don't like the God "prevents"  them angle,m i'll explain it anotehr way.

You sayd God commands all men to repent. But they can only repent if He makes them repent (after all, they have no choice in the matter). So God commands them to do something they can only do if He allows them,  and yet He refuses to allow them to repent. Thus, in your view, God commands all men to do something  which He refuses to allow them to do. And we're illogical? And we contradict Scripture?

Sovereignty is not an issue, as I explained previously.

[Petro]

Our view is illogical, yet you continue to say that God commands all men to repent, and then prevents some of them from doing so.

So God prevents people from doing that which He commands they do?


In case you don't like the God "prevents"  them angle,m i'll explain it anotehr way.

You sayd God commands all men to repent. But they can only repent if He makes them repent (after all, they have no choice in the matter).

The word is "grants" not "makes", quite a difference.

There is a reason, why he does not grant repentance, I know this is tough on you, but you make it tough on yourself, when you don't submit yourself to Gods Word.

This is why you cannot understand, I am am wondering by now if you can hear??

So God commands them to do something they can only do if He allows them,

I guess it has something to do with, the way they see, them selves, Gods commands all men everywhere to repent, but if some aks themselves;

"repent from what"?,

which is kind of like the questions you and pnotch, have been asking.

I ask that individual, doesn't see himself as a sinner, that bad off,m where he needs to repent, kind of like the Pharisee and the Publican at Lk 18:11-14.

This man simply justifies himself, should God, grant such a man repentace??    Maybe you can guess again...


I tell you in that it wil be; a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.



Blessings,

Petro



  and yet He refuses to allow them to repent. Thus, in your view, God commands all men to do something  which He refuses to allow them to do. And we're illogical? And we contradict Scripture?

Sovereignty is not an issue, as I explained previously.

[SonofAslan]

OK Petro, I'm ging to ask a straightforward question now which requires nothing more than a simple answer.

Wjhen God commands us to repent, do we have a choice whether we repent or not?

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth now. One minute you say we have no choice that we can only do it if God "grants" it to us. The next you say God doesn't make us do it. I want a straight answer. Do I have a choice whether to obey God's command or not?

And please, don't tell me I have the choice to obey it, but I don't have the choice to disobey it. That is meaningless.

[Petro]

OK Petro, I'm ging to ask a straightforward question now which requires nothing more than a simple answer.

Wjhen God commands us to repent, do we have a choice whether we repent or not?

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth now. One minute you say we have no choice that we can only do it if God "grants" it to us. The next you say God doesn't make us do it. I want a straight answer. Do I have a choice whether to obey God's command or not?

SonofAslan,

To your question

Do I have a choice whether to obey Gods command or not?

The answer you want is a big yes, unfortunately,

however,

Gods word says you would never choose to, because you can't.

Now let me share what the Bible says;

In and of yourself, you would never  choose, to repent because of three reasons;

1.  You would never want to. (Rom 3:11-12), because, you are lumped in with the rest of us.

Was it you that said, the book of Romans and some other book are the most misintrepreted, I can see why, you despise it.

2.  You were spiritually dead in sin and tresspasses, helpless to do anything about your sinfull condition; spiritually dead; (Eph 2:1)    

One, only speaks out of both sides of his mouth if his tongue is cloven. And they that deny the Word of God, may have such a tongue...

Do you deny these first two points??


3.  Spiritually dead, unable to know, hear and receive God's word.  Remember (1 Cor 2:14)

Do you deny this point as well??


And above all else, You could never repent, because you loved darkness rather than light, because your deeds (works) were evil, and everyone that works evil, hates the light, neither comes to the light, that his deeds might be reproved. (Jhn 3:19-21)

I bet you disagree with this point also,

So now, tell me, how was it you came to repentance, anyhow................on your own??  

Without God's, divine intervention in your life, you could never do anything,  

Would you disagree with this point also??

But God enabled you, to repent, when He revealed to you, what a great sinner you were, and that He loved you enough to die in the place of yourself for your sins, it was His goodness which led you to the truth of this matter and enabled you to repent.

Rom 2
2:1  Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2  But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3  And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4  Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6  Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Lets pull this verse 4, out here into the open.

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Do you deny the goodness of God led you and enabled you to repent??

Can you give an answer, from your vantage point, which will not deny these points.

If you can, please do....

And please, don't tell me I have the choice to obey it, but I don't have the choice to disobey it. That is meaningless.

I won't...

Everyone is saved the same way, would you deny this is true..

If you were granted the gift differently, please tell us about it..


You need to confess..O man.... you are wrong, and He is true and right.


Blessings,

Petro

P.S. I won't be able to teach you further on this matter, until I return, after July 4, have a nice one.
How about you??

[Petro]

This AM, As I read scripture and prayed, I came across this verse I am sharing here, with you.  

2 Cor 7
9  Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
10  For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.


Consider Esau, a fornicator and profane man, who had an inheritance, that he despised, because he trusted in himself.

The scriptures say about him, that he;

..........afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears. (Heb 12:17)

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.


As a servant of God, it isn't easy dealing with people who consider themselves wise in wisdom and understanding,of the things of God, and I confess, I haven't been altogether patient and gentle with some of you, but it is because you drive us to scorn, thru your childish, arguments, wanting to re lay the foundation to repentance by faith in dead works.

Petro

[pnotc]

Petro-

I am, unfortunately, a bit short on time right at the moment, but I will definitely respond to your posts later this weekend.  Even from a quick scan of your posts, I've seen more than a few inconsistencies and misintepretations, so I am definitely looking forward to responding.

And I see that even your admission of wrongdoing includes yet another insult...

"but it is because you drive us to scorn, thru your childish, arguments,"

Jam 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [and] easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

I see why you despise the Book of James so...

[katherine2001]

pnotc and SOA,

I look forward to your responses.  You have to admit that James can be a little hard to take since he says it like it is and sugarcoats nothing.  That may be why at least a couple of the Reformers wanted to remove James from the canon of scriptures (even though the Scriptures say that you aren't supposed to add or remove from them).  However, James is part of the scripture, so if we believe that the scriptures are true, then we must accept everything that they say.  We can't pick and choose what to believe.  We must take all that the scriptures say on a subject into account.  We let the scriptures mold our beliefs, not make the scriptures mold to what we believe.  

Also, I'm learning that true repentence means accepting responsibility for my actions, thoughts, and emotions without blaming anyone else for them or making excuses.  I can't change anyone else--only myself.  Therefore, if I find myself being judgmental and condemning or angry and irritated, that is my problem, and by God's grace, I'd better learn to get these things under control and confess each time that I fall short of that.      

[SonofAslan]

Thank you for being straightforward and honest in your answer.

So we have no choice. You are wrong. I don't WANT to have a choice. I would much rather you were right so I can lay all the blame for whatever happens to me on God and not have to take any of the responsibility myself. The problem is that Scripture denies this udnerstanding, and I feel more compelled to follow Scripture than Calvin. "Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you more than to God, you judge."

Corinthians 7 – where is our choice denied? It says godly sorrow works unto repentance. Of course it does. When I’m sorry for something I did, then I can repent of it. Choice is not denied here. Paul’s hearers could just as easily have ignored what he said, but no, they decided to respond with sorrow and repentance.

Hebrews 12:17 – He wanted to get his blessing back. This doesn’t refer to salvation at all. Esau had rejected his birthright, and when Isaac gave Jacob the birthright, Esua wanted Isaac to repent and change his mind, but Isaac refused.  The repentance he sought wasn’t his own repentance, but he sought get his father to repent of giving the birthright to Jacob. Yes, he sought repentance. He sought Isaac’s repentance.

And Timothy again; “In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”

Notice who is recovering these people from the snares of the devil? THEY are. How is this possible if they have no choice? Why are they instructed if they have no choice in whether they repent or not? This passage, just like Philippians, talks about us cooperating with God.  

You read these passages and ignore others. “ These are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.”

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Ezekiel 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Jeremiah 36:3
It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.

If God’s the one who decides and we have no choice, how can God say “it MAY be that…”? Or has God not yet decided whether to make them repent or not? Is God trying to make up His mind? Or perhaps His will is battling itself to see whether His will to refuse them repentance is greater than His will to make them repent?


If we have no choice, this means God acts according to His own will, but He tells us His own will is that NONE should perish and that ALL should turn from wickedness. If my will plays no role, and only God’s will does, and God’s will is that ALL turn, please explain how it can be that all do not repent and find salvation? Is God forced by some necessity to do that which He doesn’t will? Does His will contradict His willYou said WE deny God’s sovereignty, but you force Him to do that which He doesn’t will to do. ? Your teaching turns God schizophrenic.

You must CHOOSE this day who you will follow, Calvin or the Lord. As for me and my house, we will follow the Lord. Joshua 24:15

[Petro]

It is useless, you simply can't see it, therefore, you can't understand it.

Esau, was rejected by God, way before, He sold his birthright, and the scriptures reveal to us, that God hated Esau, but loved Jacob, before either of them were born or had done right or wrong.

All, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;

And God said to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.

All that is left now, is for you to call God, unrighteous..

I encourage you to keep seeking his face, and pray that you may find the grace which is necessary to come to God who gives men faith.

But, I would derelict not to warn you, there is a point, where God Spirit will no longer strive, with them that oppose the teaching of the Spirit, and idolatry is not a sin, to take lightly, and there is no turning back, once a man, knows the way, if he should take to turning from it.

God Bless,

Petro

[Saved_4ever]

S4E

You really should read the entire discussion before jumping in. You totally failed to grasp what the whole “unbelief” thing was about. No one has denied that we are saved through faith and we are damned through unbelief. Read everything in its entirety before commenting.

Further, you have no idea what Orthodoxy is and what I was taught. You guys really drive me nuts with this junk. I spent 25+ reading Scripture all alone. I was NOT Orthodox. I was NOT Catholic. I was a simple Christian who believed the only thing that mattered was what Scripture said. So I read it. And I read ONLY it. And I prayed, every night, as I read Scripture, that God would guide me. I did that for 25+ years. Every day. I missed maybe 3 days in over 25 years. And I didn’t read just one chapter a day. I read., And I read. And I read. No notes, no lights, no motor car. Not a single luxury. I looked to NO MAN for guidance in how I was to understand Scripture. In the words of Paul, “I did not confer with any human being” (Gal 1:15). I studied only the Word of God without a single outside resource. Not even a cross-reference. I wanted NOTHING to taint the Word. And you know what I came to believe? Exactly what the Orthodox Church teaches. I changed not a jot or a tittle of my belief when I converted. THAT’S the difference. Calvin isn’t my guide to Scripture. Neither is any other man. No Sunday School teacher. No pastor. Only the Word Itself and the Holy Spirit. Believe that if you will, but it is absolute truth. I would swear on something, but Scripture teaches us “Let your yes be yes and your no be no.” So I was taught what I believe by NO ONE. Not Orthodoxy. Not Calvin. Not Hal Lindsey. Not Tim LaHaye. Not Billy Graham. Not ANYONE. Purely from the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit, which if read honestly and sincerely will guide men “into all truth”. But your interpretations are so clouded by the “traditions of men” that you can’t see straight. Remove the log from your own eye, and then you will be able to see what Scripture itself says without all this junk you have obscured it with. So the truth is, S4E, that you haven’t got the first CLUE what I was taught. Why? Because you would rather be deceived. If you DID know what I was taught, then you would have to agree with Scripture, and THEN you couldn't stay in your comfortable deception where you can do whatever you like and God is obligated to save you because you parroted some "sinner's prayer" when you were 6 years old.

I have shown you the truth. I have warned you. If you reject the truth now, it is on your own head. (Ezekiel 33:9)

I'm sorry, but i'm getting a bit frustrated by the non-responsiveness of you Protestant types (with the exception of Petros -- at least HE deals with what I say, for the most part, instead of idiotic statements like "you really make me chuckle").

I think the fact that you pretend you you read scripture for 25 years without any aid is ridiculous.  If I recall you said you started out "protestant and then found after some reading you then disagreed.  Whtaever you want to believe.  You want to know some added garbage you believe?  That God grants Mary's wishes.  That's beyond foolish and completely unbiblical.  THen again you say you read scripture only but I bet you read the apocrypha crap and call it scripture.

HEN you couldn't stay in your comfortable deception where you can do whatever you like and God is obligated to save you because you parroted some "sinner's prayer" when you were 6 years old.

Where did you come up with this garbage?  Do you always make things up about people?  I never said a "sinners prayer" and I certainly never said anythign of the like when I was six.  I haven't even been saved for all that long.  Where did you also come up with the slander that, I believe I can do as I wish because God is obligated to save me?

I've never made any such statment or alluded to it either.  This is another reason I don't bother getting into much with you.  You're so busy playing righteous you don't even give God and credit for what He's done.  You parrot on about how it's by faith and than rant around about hopw holy you are and if you aren't doing X,Y,Z like you than one isn't in the know like you.  I have my beliefs BECAUSE I read my bible not because someone else told me.  You're free to your opinionshow ever off hey are.

Take care

But your interpretations are so clouded by the “traditions of men” that you can’t see straight.

Oh yeah, and this line here coming from an orthodox/RCC is always a good one.  Really it is.

Continue on being religious.....

[pnotc]

Petro-

"It is useless, you simply can't see it, therefore, you can't understand it."

A conveniently self-serving defense.  Anyone who disagrees with you is blind, ignorant, likely not one of the elect, so why bother listening to what he has to say, right?

I notice that you repeatedly fail to reconcile verses.  You rely heavily on Romans 3, yet do not take into account Romans 7 - what is it that Paul desires to do, and yet cannot because of sin?

vs 18 "...For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out."  - This violates Calvinisms tenets on the sinful nature of man wanting only to sin.  Here Paul explicitly states that he wishes to do good, but cannot.  

vs 19 "For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing." - How can he not want to sin, not want to do evil if he is fallen?  How can he have that desire?

vs 22 "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man" -
Here "man" means specifically human, ie, not spiritual.  The inward man, the soul, delights in God's law and wants to follow it, wants to please God, but is prevented from doing so by the outer man, by the flesh ands its bondage to sin.  

3:10 "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."  - This says nothing about desire!  There is no one that understands what they must do to please God, blinded as they are by sin.  But this does not mean they do not desire it.  There are certainly some, even many, who would reject God, as wholly consumed by their sin as they are.  But there are those would still desire salvation and grace.  And "seeketh" means to diligently pursue or chase after - how can any of us diligently pursue God when we were confounded and ensnared by sin?  As it says in the next verse, we have all gotten off the way and been decieved.  

Since you seem to answer only those questions which suit you in any of my posts, I'll only ask you one:  How do you reconcile Romans 7 with Romans 3 without doing violence to either text?  

[Petro]

pnotc,

Do you want to know, so that you can continue to suppress the truth and deny it, or because you want to know the truth of what these scriputres teach.

Wasn't it you who, stated; The Book of Romans is the book, more often misquoted??

Your question is to continue your weak arguments, and;

To me this means you already have an answer, I say, work it out yourself..if............. you don't know.

But thanks for your invitation anyhow...

[Nostalghia]

Let me express my gratitude for those of you who have the patience to talk to such arrogance.

"Do you want to know, so that you can continue to suppress the truth and deny it, or because you want to know the truth of what these scriputres teach."

Are you claiming not to have a lens of interpretation?  Our pov is subjective and yours is objective for the simple fact that it is yours?

"It is useless, you simply can't see it, therefore, you can't understand it."

"but it is because you drive us to scorn, thru your childish, arguments"

I suppose one could let ones own words speak for oneself.  These sort of statements reveal character. I can see you have attained great spiritual wisdom to speak with such authority.

A sinner,

[Petro]

Well now...

The POV's shared here from those who claim to possess faith, is self evident, that their faith is not on what God, has done and continues to do, but in what they (those who claim it)themselves do.

But unto us who believe, the Holy Spirit is given, that we might know the things that are freely given to us by Him.

Proof of this is in the doctrines you espouse to, which deny the gift of eternal security,  you simply deny it, making God out to be a liar.

And don't make any bones about it...

That you are a sinner is true, and so am I, but thank God, he has forgiven me.. He can do the same for you..


P.S.  Your signature, quotes, A. Tarvosky, is he the same communist wrter who was exiled to siberia..?

Petro

[pnotc]

Petro-

Nope, I'm not the one who talked about misintepretations of Romans, though I certainly agree with that statement.  I think it was offered by SOA.  

And just as I thought - you can't reconcile the verses. Your proof-texts fall apart when taken in light of the totality of scripture.  I can reconcile them perfectly well.  My challenge was to see if you could, and you clearly cannot.  

"The POV's shared here from those who claim to possess faith, is self evident, that their faith is not on what God, has done and continues to do, but in what they (those who claim it)themselves do."

All we claim to do is respond to God's offer of Grace.  I'm sorry that bothers you so much, but it isn't a "work", it isn't earning our salvation or saving ourselves.  It is the acceptance of the free gift of grace, the grace which brings salvation.  You know, you never did answer my question:  how would you react to your 2-week old son if he pooped on the rug, even after you told him not to and made it perfectly clear you abhorred it, hated it and could not even stand to look upon it?  

"But unto us who believe, the Holy Spirit is given, that we might know the things that are freely given to us by Him."

Yeah, those of us who believe know grace is free and salvation unmerited.  A gift of pure mercy and benevolence, unearned and unforced.  

"Proof of this is in the doctrines you espouse to, which deny the gift of eternal security,  you simply deny it, making God out to be a liar."

Really?  Why are we told then, that those who endure to the end will be saved?  Why does Paul himself state it may be possible for even him to lose his final reward?  Why does Hebrews 6 talk of those who fall away, never to be brought back to repentance?  Likely more references you cannot reconcile.  

"That you are a sinner is true, and so am I, but thank God, he has forgiven me.. He can do the same for you.."

He already has.

You know, I'm sometimes gifted with prophecy.  I prophesy that you will not respond to a single argument or question, will not even attempt to reconcile the scripture references, and will respond in a post laced with invective and insults.