Open Theism, Does God know or not?

[Petro]

What had been settled by councils many centuries ago, now is resurfacing as a old heretical teaching, packaged in a new box.

http://www.wwrn.org/parse.php?idd=7503

This is where, the issues surrounding the Sovereignty of God vs the free will of man lead to,  now God, is simply a spectator, and can do nothing, since He does not know how future events will be shaped by mans "free will" decisions.

A few excerts from this article, Christians should be aware of;


"On the other side are scholars such as Clark H. Pinnock and R. William Hasker, proponents of a viewpoint called open theism. For them, the future is somewhat open. God elects to give people free will and therefore cannot know everything that will happen in the future, they maintain."

"We say, yes, God has the power but He gives room for human and creaturely freedom. God's sovereignty is general over the world, but not meticulous," said Pinnock, a professor of theology at McMaster Divinity College in Hamilton, Ontario. "God wants free creatures to have some say."

"Pinnock and his co-writers argue that God has goals - not endless, predetermined outcomes - and can't know everything if He lets creatures choose alternatives that can affect the future. They cite various scripture for support, such as God's statement after Abraham showed willingness to sacrifice Isaac: " ... now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son" (Gen. 22:12)."

"In open theism, God "is not independent. He's now dependent. He doesn't know everything, just a few things. He's subject to the processes of time instead of transcending time," Oliphint said."
.



The troubling issue with this viewpoint, is ultimately, Who is it, that saves? God or man?

Was is it not Gods ? ; "predeterminate council that Jesus as Savior be, the judge of the "quick and the dead"? (Acts 10:42); was it not Gods determinate council and foreknowledge to "deliver" Jesus into wicked men, whose wicked hands crucified and slain Him? (Acts 2:23)

Was it because God didn't know, they would kill him? (Isa 53)
The scripture is crystal clear that "they took counsel together for to put him to death." (Jhn 11:54)

I guess God, couldn't have known this?  However, how is it the word tells us, He mediated the crucifixcion of Jesus before hand.

Note the following scripture;

1 Cor 2
7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8  Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Error, leads to error and distorts, the way man sees God.

If it is true, all are dead in sin, and because God elects a few by His mercy and grace for His own Glory, how is men can teach their actions, are the result of their own will?

Free will, and belief in this teaching, not only distorts man's view of God, but it puffs him up and emphacises his work, as opposed to Gods free grace..

God Bless,
Petro

[SonofAslan]

So you don't believe we have free will? Did you choose to type what you posted or not? So you believe God sends people to hell arbitrarily based upon His whim? So in what sense is God loving?

There are more options than simply openness or determinism. Both are heretical.

[Petro]

So you don't believe we have free will? Did you choose to type what you posted or not? So you believe God sends people to hell arbitrarily based upon His whim? So in what sense is God loving?

There are more options than simply openness or determinism. Both are heretical.

SonofgAslan,

Unfortunately, we are not speaking of "openness or determinism."   but;

Fate vs Freedom,  here...........


Petro

[SonofAslan]

Well see, the problem with open theology is that it leaves God in the dark. Man's free will does not necessarily do that. man can  still be free, while God would know every decision he ever will, could, has, or could have made.

I reject fatalism, and I reject openness theology.  man does have free will, but this in no way restricts God's knowledge.

[Petro]

I wholly agree with what you have posted.

The reason you disagree with "fatalism", is because you see "free will" as being the natural mans ticket to stopping the world, so he can get off at will.

The problem with that is, the ticket he holds is a oneway trip to eternity out of the presence of God, unless God intervenes in that man's life to "draw him, to Christ".

Free will, cannot draw him, anywhere but, further from God and the things of God, because all he can ever do is work himself into righteousness, which are as filthy wrags, before God.

1 Cor 2
14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


I think you know this..


Petro

[SonofAslan]

Hmmm, I disagree. We can do some good through our free will. Even non-Christians love their children, or may do a kind act every once in a while. We can do good naturally. Because God created us, and He created us good. That has not completely disappeared. It has only been besmirched.

Our free will in cooperation with god's grace, draws us further and further into the life of God, which is what salvatiuon is. Yes, we cannot come to God unless He calls us, but he calls all of us. The difference is who responds positively.

I agree completely w/ 1 Cor 2:14.

[ollie]

It is God's word that calls.

Hear it.
Believe it.
Obey it.

[Petro]

Hmmm, I disagree. We can do some good through our free will. Even non-Christians love their children, or may do a kind act every once in a while. We can do good naturally. Because God created us, and He created us good. That has not completely disappeared. It has only been besmirched.

Our free will in cooperation with god's grace, draws us further and further into the life of God, which is what salvatiuon is. Yes, we cannot come to God unless He calls us, but he calls all of us. The difference is who responds positively.

I agree completely w/ 1 Cor 2:14.

SonofAslan,

Ok, thank you for at least being candid, and honest.

So, I think, so far we have established that the work necessary for salvation is, as you have stated;

Believe, Repent, and be Baptized.

So, what kind of Good, and how much of it, must one do to be able to come to faith, repentance and baptism.

I ask this question, because at Mat 25, the sheep were already sheep, and the goats, goats, when the angels gathered and separated them.

And Ephesians 1:13, still speaks of Faith being  a gift given by the grace of God.

And then we read at;

Titus 3
5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


Petro

[SonofAslan]

I couldn't find where Ephesians 1:13 said anything about faith being a gift. Did you mean a different passage? If you mean Ephesians 2:8 ("For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God"), the word "this" in this passage cannot be referring to "faith". The Greek is clearer than the English here, because in Greek, the demonstartive "this" has to agree with the word to which it refers in gender and number. The word "faith" is feminine, and "this" is neuter. It also can't refer to "grace" for the same reason. "Grace" is also feminine. The only thing it can refer to in this passage is salvation, which is a verb and so has no gender or number.


Short answer, the good we must do is respond to God's grace through faith and love. This is a piddling amount of good, and even that would be impossible if it weren't for God's grace. But it is still an act of our free will. God's grace allows us to choose freely how we will respond.

Long answer:

While we can do some good things through our free will, we can only do virtuous acts by the grace of God. That’s true.  But God’s grace has been poured generously on all men.


Romans 5:16-18 (NKJV)
And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

Just as Adam’s sin caused sin and death to come upon all men, so also Christ’s righteousness causes grace to come upon all men. We all are granted grace freely. But grace is not irresistible. God honors our freedom and allows us to choose whether to respond to this grace in faith or reject it. This is what Paul means when he says,


Ephesians 2:8 (NKJV)
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

God grants us grace, but it is only through our faith that grace becomes salvifically efficacious. If grace saved us with no responsibility on our part, then Paul would have said, “Through grace God saves you.” But no. It is not through grace we are saved, it is through faith. But what allows our faith to work salvation in us is God’s grace. This is what it means when Paul adds in the next verse that it is not through works that we are saved lest any should boast. It isn’t our works that save us, just as it isn’t our faith that saves us. It is God’s grace. But what turns God’s grace into salvation is our faith, which works. This latter definition of faith is what James meant when he says,


James 2:14-17 (NKJV)
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

and later,


James 2:24-26 (NKJV)
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Just as grace is only efficacious when we respond to it in faith, so also faith is only efficacious when it works in obedience to the commands of God.


Yes, we can only do good by the grace of God, but we only DO good when we respond in faith to the grace God bestows on us. This response in faith is our part of the covenant. It is in this way that we cooperate with God for our salvation. And this is what Scripture means when it says we must,



Philippians 2:12-13 (NKJV)
work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

How can Paul tell us to work out our own salvation while at the same time telling us that God works in us? We must work out our salvation, we must strive for it, but we do this by cooperating with God’s grace working in us. How do we cooperate? Through faith which works itself out in love. This is what it means to persevere as Paul says we must do:


Hebrews 10:36 (NKJV)
For you have need of endurance [i.e. perseverance], so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:


and


1 Timothy 4:16 (NKJV)
Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue [i.e. persevere] in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

and  Christ tells us to “ strive to enter the narrow gate” (Luke 13:24).

We must struggle and strive and “run the race” and “fight the good fight”, and we will only attain salvation by doing these things. But it is not these things which save us. It is the grace of God given freely to all men which saves us. But this grace only saves us when we respond to it in faithful obedience. A good analogy would perhaps be a seed. Grace is a seed that only becomes a tree if it is watered. But water doesn’t produce the fruit on the tree. The seed is what becomes a fruit bearing tree. The water merely nourishes the seed and allows it to become what it is by nature. Grace is the seed, which when watered by our faithful obedience allows us to become what we were created to be, i.e. fruit bearing trees.


This should also explain what I believe is the proper understanding of the Titus passage.

[Petro]

 posted by SonofAslan

I couldn't find where Ephesians 1:13 said anything about faith being a gift. Did you mean a different passage?

SonofAslan,

Sorry,  Yes....... I meant Eph 2:8-9

If you mean Ephesians 2:8 ("For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God"), the word "this" in this passage cannot be referring to "faith". The Greek is clearer than the English here, because in Greek, the demonstartive "this" has to agree with the word to which it refers in gender and number. The word "faith" is feminine, and "this" is neuter. It also can't refer to "grace" for the same reason. "Grace" is also feminine. The only thing it can refer to in this passage is salvation, which is a verb and so has no gender or number.

Actually this word "this" has three distinct meanings and can be interpreted in three different different ways in this passage, one way is as you have stated, however not to derail the discussion, I will agree with you that it ultimately focuses on Salvation, for sure.

In other words their is nothing one can do to produce salvation.  And faith in Jesus is not something any of us produce without first believing the word of God, the Gosple, because only the hearing of word of God by the Gosple, according to this passage and Romans 10:17, produces faith;

" So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

This is why Jesus, was able to quote Isaiah 6, when He said;

Mat 13
13  Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Short answer, the good we must do is respond to God's grace through faith and love. This is a piddling amount of good, and even that would be impossible if it weren't for God's grace.
But it is still an act of our free will. God's grace allows us to choose freely how we will respond.

Long answer:

While we can do some good things through our free will, we can only do virtuous acts by the grace of God. That's true. But God's grace has been poured generously on all men.


Romans 5:16-18 (NKJV)
And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

Just as Adam's sin caused sin and death to come upon all men, so also Christ's righteousness causes grace to come upon all men. We all are granted grace freely. But grace is not irresistible. God honors our freedom and allows us to choose whether to respond to this grace in faith or reject it. This is what Paul means when he says,

Virtue and doing good, are still only  human efforts, although this may show a person has a desire to live righteously, the motive is what matters, and since God knows the heart of all men, ultimately, it is revealed in whether they obey His word perfectly.  Jesus said to the Pharasees, these religious, pious hypocrites, who accused him of being born out of fornication, at;

 Jhn 8
45   And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 [coloir=Red] Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?[/color]
47  He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
In your other post which I will address later, you mention believing in a person not in an an act , and I understand this, but here Jesus in so many words is saying, "If you hear me, you hear me because God has given you ears to hear, these are His words."


He said this because: He, (Jesus), is that prophet spoken of in Deut 18:18-19, whom God promised He would send, who would every word He himself put in His mouth, and the day is coming, when God will judge everyone that heard His (Jesus's) words.

In short, we all will live or die, by the words Jesus spoke, in the name of Jehovah. God.

Ephesians 2:8 (NKJV)
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

God grants us grace, but it is only through our faith that grace becomes salvifically efficacious. If grace saved us with no responsibility on our part, then Paul would have said, "Through grace God saves you." But no. It is not through grace we are saved, it is through faith. But what allows our faith to work salvation in us is God's grace. This is what it means when Paul adds in the next verse that it is not through works that we are saved lest any should boast. It isn't our works that save us, just as it isn't our faith that saves us. It is God's grace. But what turns God's grace into salvation is our faith, which works. This latter definition of faith is what James meant when he says,

This is true, however:    "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God"     (Rom10:17, Isa 6:10)
God unstops ears, so that they may hear, the word of God.

Faith in Gods word produces, belief in the truth, the principle elements of truth in the Gosple, is the God loves all men and his desire is that  none should perish;  In fact,  God's will is that none should perish but that all should come to repentance (2Pet3:9), so everyone who hears comes to the realization, that he is a sinner and will perish, so to understand this one must believe the word of God, who in the end is Jesus; and the Apostle tells us in; Acts 15:9 refering to the account of Cornelius at Acts 10:, that when they heard the word of truth, God purified the heart by FAITH, and yet these were not yet baptized.

Two questions;

1. Do you see belief in Gods word as work?  You needn't answer;

Actually, I see you do believe this as it was  listed as part of the work required for salvation.

2. If  Baptism is part of the Work equation, how is it the Holy Spirit is given to everyone, before the are Baptized?

James 2:14-17 (NKJV)
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

and later,


James 2:24-26 (NKJV)
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Just as grace is only efficacious when we respond to it in faith, so also faith is only efficacious when it works in obedience to the commands of God.

One of these Two verses, oppose what you have stated previously; You said, the works is believe, repent, and be baptized, verses 14-17 above, are speaking of some other work,  than that stated.

Cont'd....

[Petro]

In the post where I entered into this discussion, you listed a list of verses which center around work, and quoted this passage, and then you went on to quote the passage of the sheep and the goats, and when I asked about the works, you specifically, stated it was "believe, repent and be baptized"
While I believe ( as I have stated already) two of the three to be true, and possibly the third, what

Yes, we can only do good by the grace of God, but we only DO good when we respond in faith to the grace God bestows on us. This response in faith is our part of the covenant. It is in this way that we cooperate with God for our salvation. And this is what Scripture means when it says we must,

What about Baptism, evidence that salvation has occurred is the sealing of the Holy Spirit.

He leads all believer's unto the truth of what is the word of God, from faith to faith.

Philippians 2:12-13 (NKJV)
work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
 
How can Paul tell us to work out our own salvation while at the same time telling us that God works in us? We must work out our salvation, we must strive for it, but we do this by cooperating with God's grace working in us. How do we cooperate? Through faith which works itself out in love. This is what it means to persevere as Paul says we must do:

Here, at this passage of scripture,  it is God who works it out in those whom he has chosen, and He is working in them to will and do of His good pleasure,

What is this person "working out"??

In this passage one must not ignore the context of the word, "work out" hear clearly means the solution of the problem that was vexing the Phillipians, that is to say, their contentions.

Why were they having contentions??  The letter tells us..no doubt there were evil workers among them, dividing and corrupting the truth.

And the meaning of the word "salvation" in this passage is, is not the salvation of the soul, but deliverance from the evil snares of the god of this world, which hinder the work, of bringing men to Christ, the true work of all children of God.  

Hebrews 10:36 (NKJV)
For you have need of endurance [i.e. perseverance], so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

The perseverance needed to finish is spiritual, and it is given by the Spirit, in fact, it is the Spirit that perseveres in the end, He will finish, the work He began in all Christians because He never gives up. This is what enables Christians to stand in the evil day.(Eph 6:13-18)

The "will of God" , is as we have stated already, "that none should perish, however, He expresses His will, which Paul articulated clearly to all men in

Acts 17;
30  And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31  Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

God commands all men everywhere to repent, this is Gods will, and Jesus, said;

Mk 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 [color=Red And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. [/color]
Kind of reminds us of the sheep and the goats, of Mat 25, doesn't it.

And again Jesus said;

Mat 12
50 For whosoever shall do the [/b] which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

The book of Hebrews written to the Jewish Christian believer, was one of reconciling the Law, with Grace, The Apostle, in several places, calls to their attention, their need of not placing their faith in obediance to the Law of Moses,  he wrote,

For us, he writes


Rom 10
4  For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

And at ;

Gal 3
22  But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23  But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24  Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25  But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

1 Timothy 4:16 (NKJV)
Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue [i.e. persevere] in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

and Christ tells us to " strive to enter the narrow gate" (Luke 13:24).

We must struggle and strive and "run the race" and "fight the good fight", and we will only attain salvation by doing these things. But it is not these things which save us. It is the grace of God given freely to all men which saves us. But this grace only saves us when we respond to it in faithful obedience. A good analogy would perhaps be a seed. Grace is a seed that only becomes a tree if it is watered. But water doesn't produce the fruit on the tree. The seed is what becomes a fruit bearing tree. The water merely nourishes the seed and allows it to become what it is by nature. Grace is the seed, which when watered by our faithful obedience allows us to become what we were created to be, i.e. fruit bearing trees.


This should also explain what I believe is the proper understanding of the Titus passage.

This is good, and of course I don't disagree, and when seen in the proper light, we can see, that that water you speak of is given from heaven to increase what was first only trust,  in Gods Word, ending in full blown faith in Jesus finished works (Eph 1:13)

(this is where that verse which got astray from belongs)

Just like the physical seed needs physical water to grow into a tree, the spirtual seed which

produces the tree of , faith,

 (can you see, how it (FAITH) is given from heaven, to believe what one could never believe before, if, left to himself)

so, that same spiritual seed the word of God, needs to be watered with spiritual water (the same word of God), it is the same water, with which the Christian is Baptized with, and It is Jesus who Baptizeth with the Holy Spirit,

This is the real,  Baptism required (Jhn 1:31-33),

(not physical water baptism, Mk16:16, although Christians should be Baptized in accordance to the ordinance given by Jesus),

even unbelievers who claim to believe can be baptized in water, this is clear, form this verse at Mark, but it produces nothing.

Blessings, Petro

[John the Baptist]

Faith?
All of God's creation had FAITH at one time! They were created with it! Some still have more than others regardless of being Christians. (it is not all lost or all developed yet)

Christ asked if He would find FAITH on earth when He comes the second time? Sounds like we already know the answer for the most part?

Here is the way that I see it. The character of no one is fully developed at conversion. Even Adam & Eve had a garden TEST. This was to DEVELOPE FAITH (CHARACTER). It is no differant today. In Christ there are HIS PROVISIONS to develop Character Faith.

This was not a created given trait from God. It takes our free will also! Even though the provisions ARE PROVIDED! Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9. See John 15:5 for the Everlasting Gospel part! Even heavens one time highest of Christ's creation was of faulty tested character!

---John

[SonofAslan]

Actually this word "this" has three distinct meanings and can be interpreted in three different different ways in this passage, one way is as you have stated,
 

Your comment confuses me, because the word here, "touto" only has one meaning, and that is as a demonstrative pronoun "this". Demonstartive pronouns can be used in many ways, but it is impossible that it refers to “faith” or “grace”. So I don't know what other meanings you could be referencing.

So you’re confusing me a bit here.



Answer to question 2. The Holy Spirit is not given to ALL, whether baptized or not. There can be exceptions, as I noted, e.g. the thief on the cross, but these are exactly that, i.e. exceptions.

verses 14-17 above, are speaking of some other work, than that stated.
 

You misunderstand. You are getting caught up in the particularity of the form in which our works take. This is wrongheaded. There is no single particular form in which works manifest themselves that all must do to be saved. But there must be good works for us to be saved. Some may never have fed a homeless man in their lives, but have spent all their time visiting men in prisons. While others may never have visited a prison on their lives, but spend all their time feeding the hungry. The particular form of work isn’t significant. These all fall under the general category of works : “loving God and loving our fellow man”. And this category breaks down into “faith, repentance and baptism”, which further breaks down into the particular works you refer to. So your statement that vv 14-17 arte talking about different works is false. They are talking about the same works as faith, repentance and baptism.

Here, at this passage of scripture, it is God who works it out in those whom he has chosen, and He is working in them to will and do of His good pleasure,

To read it this way leaves off half the verse. That’s why I quoted all of it. You can only interpret this passage as you do if you ignore the first half. We work out our salvation WITH God. God doesn’t work in us, in spite of ourselves. We work out His works. Cooperation. Like I explained.

In this passage one must not ignore the context of the word, "work out" hear clearly means the solution of the problem that was vexing the Phillipians, that is to say, their contentions.

No it doesn’t. Paul clearly says “work out YOUR SALVATION”. He doesn’t say, “Work out the solution to your problem.”

(can you see, how it (FAITH) is given from heaven, to believe what one could never believe before, if, left to himself)

This is where we’re going to disagree. Faith is OUR response to God. It is not given to us from God. It is how we respond to His grace, which He gives us. Faith is ours. Do we respond with faith or with lack of faith? This part is up to us. Some may have MORE faith, which simply means that they turn to God more than others do, but it is still man’s response.

even unbelievers who claim to believe can be baptized in water, this is clear, form this verse at Mark, but it produces nothing.

Just as grace not responded to in faith produces nothing. This is not problematic, but it doesn’t negate the fact that baptism in water responded to in faith is how God bestows His Holy Spirit upon man.

[Nostalghia]

This is a good example of the difference between Monergism and Synergism.

Monergistst state that only God's will is active in the Earth, and the goal of man's is to hope that he is within the good part of this will(predest).

Synergism, which is much more orthodox, states that man must submit and make his will, like Gods will- so they will be indistinguishable and will be like one will.

Was the Bible written by God alone, or did he use men who were completely and wholly men?  Was Jesus all God and no man? or all God and all man?

To me, synergism seems the stronger point of view.  

[Petro]

SonofAslan

I believe you have answered my questions, and have given me enough to know mwhere you stand.

Posted by SonofAslan,
Answer to question 2.

The Holy Spirit is not given to ALL, whether baptized or not.

There can be exceptions, as I noted, e.g. the thief on the cross, but these are exactly that, i.e. exceptions.

Of course your statement above, does not align with scripture, I gave you these scriptures, previously and, it is the final authority for this matter, everyone who belongs and has been baptized by Jesus with the Holy Spirit, have been sealed by that same Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead (Rom 8:11), and that same spirit will give life to our mortal bodies in the end;  and, there are no exceptions, regardless of whether anyone agrees with this truth, or Not.  

Rom 8
9.........................Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


I will now answer your question concerning James 2, at the other thread.

I may not do it today, since there are things which I must accomp-lish today, perhaps later this p.m.


Petro