So few will be saved

[sojourner]

I Believe,

The word transformed in the context that I used it is to be conformed to the image of Christ,  a process that is not completed while we are still in our corrupt flesh.  How do we know this?  Because we all still sin.
According to his mercy, he saved us applying to us the righteousness which is from God by faith.
Good works in obedience to God through the leading of His Spirit and Word are good and profitable to men that they may not be unfruitful.

Either word will do, it is the process that is critical. That the process is in fact in progress is the reason for the salvation (redemption) of mankind. True, it will neither be completed, nor perfected in this life because of our sinning.

Because we still sin, by default negates your entire understanding of man's salvation through faith. It cannot be a one-time, not guilty, perfection, no sin in this life. That is the massive error of the judicial or forensic theory. It is not realty. It also negates the whole work of the Holy Spirit IN man during his life on earth as a believer.
I'm glad you did not use the word 'impute' because that is far from reality as well. We are righteous in so far as we don't sin. In so far as we don't sin we have righteousness accounted to us as our own which does come from Christ. That definition of 'faith' has been since Abraham where we have the first explanation of faith being accounted of his good works. Yes, definitely, fruitful because it is what saves man. No works, no salvation, faith is dead.
What is just explained can be summed up in the same text you quoted:

"I count all things to be loss...that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith"

"not by works of righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us"

This has nothing to do 'per se' with the saving of the believer. This is in reference to all of mankind. This needed to be accomplished by Christ so that mankind could accept that free Gift by Grace. Once accepted, we become believers and we then seek to do His will in conforming to His Image in which we were created.

Then this text again sums up the struggle of the believer in this life in attempting to conform all the while still in possession of his sinful nature.

"Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on, if it is so that I may take hold of that for which also I was taken hold of by Christ Jesus...to the extent that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule...For our citizenship is in heaven, from where we also wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will change the body of our humiliation to be conformed to the body of his glory"

But God, being rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ  (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus; for by grace you (have been saved through faith), and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, that no one would boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them. (Eph 2:4-10)

This text has both elements of salvation within it.

The first part, by Grace we were saved.....made alive together with Christ... is in reference only to the objective work of Christ on the Cross whereby ALL men were saved. All men have been made alive again. Meaning, body and soul have been reunited. Christ overturned death which was instituted by Adam. Then by His death and resurrection (baptism) we are raised with Him to sit with Him and reign with Him in His Kingdom.
Then beginning with for by grace again, Paul is summing up the whole of salvation and again lists both elements. The Objective work of Christ (redemption) and then the works we were created to do once we accept that free Gift. Walking in them is work and it is salvation of the believer. If no walking, no believer, no salvation.
Your text of (Phi 3:3-21) is a summary of man's redemption and salvation.
Titus 3:3-15 is along the same vein.
Here is another way to look at the whole picture.
Christ's work of redemption is related to our nature. (all men - mankind)
The work of the Holy Spirit begins at Pentacost and has to do with the deifying or conforming work - our personhood. Neither can do without the other but it takes both for the salvation of man.

We are declared righteous by faith in Christ and strive to become like Christ through the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Actually two things are not what the Apostles taught. We, that is mankind has been made right. Justified. We appropriate that righteousness by faith and increase that righteousness as we grow in faith, as we strengthen faith, as we begin to conform to His Image, in His Likeness. as we become partakers of His divine nature.
If we were in fact declared righteous, we would be perfect. We would have already attained the Image. That is only possible in the eschoton.

There are a lot more implications in this meaning of which protestants do not recognize.

[Heidi]

So when is a person saved, sojourner? How many Sundays does one have to attend church to be saved? How many good acts? What's the magic number? Who said? Where in the bible does it say how many acts we have to do to be saved. In fact it says the EXACT opposite.   James, 2:10, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point if guilty of breaking all of it." So when are we saved? Most of Pauls' words are about being saved through faith alone. Just look at the concordance under "faith" and look up all the NT chapters on it. There are MANY which talks about being saved through faith alone. You are disagreeing with all of those. Jesus didn't die for the adulterers and not the murderers or for every sin we commit through Jul 17th. He died for EVERY sin once and for all. IT IS FINISHED. Do you not understand what that means? Your beliefs agree with the Jews.

[sojourner]

Heidi,

He died for EVERY sin once and for all. IT IS FINISHED. Do you not understand what that means?

Because you don't understand the Biblical meaning of salvation you are confusing the very issue that I have attempted to explain to I Believe. What you say here based on what you have stated before, this would be universalism. This definitely puts you out of the realm of Christianity, Orthodoxy for sure, but even protestantism.

My Bible never says 'faith alone'. You must be Lutheran. He rewrote his Bible to use the word alone. It appears only once and in the negative. As far as looking it up, I don't use the same man-made concordances of the men who established their man-made religion. What would you expect them to say?
Actually, the correct way to say it is: saved by Grace, through faith.

Do you not understand what that means?

I have no idea based on your interpretation. Maybe you should attempt to explain your words which I perceive as a misrepresentation even of protestantism, whatever that actually means today.

Your beliefs agree with the Jews.

They do??

[Heidi]

Do you not believe that Jesus said; "It is finished"? If not, then what did he say? Please tell the world. I do not have a Lutheran bible nor do I subscribe to "Lutheranism." If you believe that we are saved by works, then WHAT IN THE HECK WAS THE POINT OF JESUS'S DEATH? According to your theory, sojourner, it was a COMPLETE waste of time. He did NOTHING! It's all up to you! This issue is the point of the WHOLE bible, both OT and NT. The OT was written to show us WHY WE CANNOT OBEY THE LAW. The NT was written to show us God's remedy for our inability to obey the law. Romans, 2:17, "For in the gospel, a righteousness FROM GOD is revealed, a rghteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: the righteous will live by faith." Romans, 3:11, "There is no one righteous, not even one." You obviously disagree with that also because you say that we can become righteous which would then make some people better than others, which is against Jesus's teachings not to judge, and also pride and arrogance which is not a fruit of the spirit. It is also against Paul's words not to boast, against Jesus's message of humility and virtually contradicts most of the NT!

Again, your beliefs TOTALLY correspond to Jewish teachings only you're wearing sheep's clothing, sojourner. I can see why you doubt your salvatation. You will understand it once you're saved. Until then, you will have many doubts. By the way, doubt is NOT a fruit of the spirit and you are riddled with doubt. Once you're saved, you will experience the fruits of the spirit which are joy, hope, love,  peace, and thanksgiving.  ANY belief that leads us to ANY sin, including the sin of pride is from the devil. Your beliefs glorify man instead of Christ which shows they are not from the Holy Spirit, but from the sin of pride.

[sojourner]

Heidi,

Well, what can one say. You obviously have not read the preceding posts in which I have responded to I Believe,  But to say the least you are very confused. At least as to what the Gospel has been for 2000 years from the beginning. You may be familiar with the current modern vernacular along with some of your own personal interpretation but don't compare that to the original. You are worlds apart.

I do believe in what Jesus said, but not your interpretation of it. It does not align with the original, therefore invalid.

Just to keep it simple. What Christ did was to redeem the world. That includes the physical world along with man. It deals with mans nature which was separated at the fall by Adam. That is why Christ is referred to as the second Adam. He overcame DEATH. The separation of body and soul. He also overcame physical death, but both are actually not completed until the eschoton.

Now, the important thing for you to understand, Christ's work was for all men. It actually is involuntary. Man has absolutely no say in it whatsoever. That is why all the texts very explicitly states that neither works of the law or any effort of man can do what Christ accomplished. It is by Grace only. At this point it has absolutely nothing to do with faith as yet.

This means that all of mankinds sins have been covered,  all of mankind has been justified, made right with God. We are now at the same point Adam was before the fall, with the exception we still have our sinful, corrupted natures.

Next, comes the important part. How does one separate himself from ALL MEN. We do it by believing that God did in fact redeem me and we can lay hold of that free gift by simply accepting it by faith. However, faith is not a one-time mental assertion. Faith means living, abiding, working, the great commandment. We as mankind, that is believers, are to do what Adam was expected to do as being created in God's image. Now that becomes the salvation of the believer. Or, one can say, it is the salvation of man.  If one does not appropriate the work of Christ, you are lost and if you are a slackered, or depart from the faith, you will not be saved. Therefore man is not saved until death. God makes that judgement, not you.

Now, speaking of the NT, probably 95 percent is dealing with this living, walking,. abiding in the Truth.  This is not a movement of gratitude or working for some level of rewards. The reward is Christ Himselt. Perfection in the Divine Nature.

Heidi, that is all in Scripture. It has been delineated, outlined, lived, believed and practiced for 2000 years. By the fact it is still the same after 2000 years authentics precisely where the Holy Spirit actualy resides and works.

Now, I ask, who is wearing sheeps clothing, who is arrogant, in fact somewhat blasphemous,
You are right though, I won't understand it fully until I am saved, which is in the hereafter.

I didn't know you could sin. You stated before that you were completely righteous, made so by your simple belief in God. You don't even need your sins forgiven because it is automatic because Christ died for all sins. Do you understand now, why that would be universalism?

My sincere suggestion is to put the man-made religions and your own feeble attempt to interpret and create your very own personal religion behind you. Learn what salvation has always meant verified by the saints, martyrs, and the Holy Spirit.

You still have not shown that your interpretation is what the Apostles actually received from the Holy Spirit, taught to the first century Christians. If you are working on it, keep at it. It will take you a lifetime  but you will find the Truth.

[nChrist]

Sojourner,

You are teaching a false (little 'g") gospel that does not exist. Just plainly, your beliefs are inside-out, backward, and upside-down wrong and completely FALSE! It was false 2,000 years ago and it's false now. There was a HUGE reason for the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the CROSS in our stead. There isn't a human being alive that has a single thing that is worthy to add to the PERFECT WORK OF JESUS CHRIST THAT WAS FINISHED AT THE CROSS! For a man to think that he or she had anything worthy of even mentioning with the sacrifice would be self-righteous stupidity and near blasphemy.

It's really very simple. You will either yield to the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ, or you won't. If you are working for your salvation or trying to obey the law for your salvation, you lose and fail. If men were capable of being worthy, the crucifixion of Jesus Christ on the cross was in vain. However, the righteousness of men is as filty rags and Jesus is the only way. It is HIS WAY, with HIS BLOOD, with HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, and our faith in HIM ALONE - PERIOD - END OF STORY!

However, in your case, you may wish to go back under a Levitical Priest, do burnt offerings, and forget about the cross with what you are teaching. You are most welcome to do that, but you are not welcome  to attempt to convince others here to take the ride into self-righteous darkness with you. You will need a temple, and in your case, a large supply of livestock. It would be better for you to find out about Jesus, but you appear to be determined to take the self-righteous route. You might have enough righteousness to get into a K-Mart, but not heaven. So, you might have a K-Mart gospel, but it is rejected here. Saying the same thing ten more times won't lend any more validity to something that doesn't exist.

[sojourner]

Blackeyedpeas,

You are teaching a false (little 'g") gospel

That you haven't proven as yet. You will find what I am explaining has been the Gospel for 2000 years. It has not changed one iota. If you want to claim it as false per your own interpretation that is perfectly acceptable. I doubt very much that you could even prove your theory back as far as the 16th century.

There isn't a human being alive that has a single thing that is worthy to add to the PERFECT WORK OF JESUS CHRIST THAT WAS FINISHED AT THE CROSS

Now, that is Gospel Truth. That is precisely what I have been explaining to I Believe. But it seems that most protestants have no clue as what that precisely is. You earlier, and Heidi in the most previous post, put man's response under the finished work of Christ. You keep saying saved by works and no one, for sure me, as ever spoken of being saved by works. You may have the same problem as Heidi in thinking I am explaining the Roman Catholic view of salvation. There can be nothing further  from the Truth. In fact, as I pointed out to I Believe, most, if not all protestant views have as their root the Roman Catholic doctrine  known as the Forensic theory or the pen-sub theory.

If men were capable of being worthy, the crucifixion of Jesus Christ on the cross was in vain.

This quote shows your obvious confusion or misunderstanding of the original Gospel as well. Man has absolutely nothing at all to do with Christ's work of the Cross. However, Christ's work on the Cross was necessary in order for man to have a relationship with God which was broken by Adam. We were eternally separated from God. Thus God redeemed His Creation, He was Incarnated, became fully man so that man could become partakers of the Divine Nature. Now, this so happens to have been the reason we were created. It was precisely what Adam was supposed to be doing WITH    God. He chose instead to do it alone because Satan said to Eve that she could become like God.  This was the whole purpose of man, but it was SUPPOSED to be WITH God.  

Now, here comes modern man, full of pride, arrogant, wants to be individual, like Eve, wants to do it his way, not the way the Bible actually spells it out.
The rest of your post has nothing to do with what I am saying. It is just another diatribe with no meaning and total misunderstanding.

It was false 2,000 years ago and it's false now.

Obviously then, one could well assume that you sincerely believe that the Gospel came about the mid 16th century and a more and better version sometime within the last couple of years. If that be the case why base what you believe on a Bible that resulted from the very Tradition that you are despising and the fact that the Holy Spirit failed and lied to us all. Possibly you believe something similar to the Mormons. You just have not gotten around to writing a new book as yet.

Now, the fact you cannot prove your position leaves you sort of hanging high, as they say. If you really think that what you state is the Gospel, you should have no trouble showing its validity.
But as yet you have not shown it, nor that what I am explaining  actually does not exist.

If you cannot, your view is just what it seems, man-made. Self revelation based on personal interpretation of the Bible which was yanked out of its historical context.

[nChrist]

Sojourner Said:

This quote shows your obvious confusion or misunderstanding of the original Gospel as well. Man has absolutely nothing at all to do with Christ's work of the Cross. However, Christ's work on the Cross was necessary in order for man to have a relationship with God which was broken by Adam.

Sojourner,

Your quote above is just as ridiculous and false as everything else you are spouting. So, no man had a relationship with God between Adam and the cross? Your false teaching nullifies the New Testament, and now you nullify the Old Testament. Your statement would clearly state there are no Old Testament Saints spending eternity in Heaven. Well, you would also rule out the Apostles. It is just as well with what you are teaching.

You didn't even get close to the meaning of the cross, and you don't have a clue about the Gospel of God's Grace that most of the New Testament is devoted to. Here's a little hint for you if you ever decide to search for the truth:  the Gospel of God's Grace is THE TRUTH ABOUT THE CROSS, WHY JESUS CHRIST WAS CRUCIFIED ON THE CROSS IN OUR STEAD, WHO JESUS CHRIST WAS BEFORE AND AFTER THE CROSS, AND WHAT JESUS CHRIST CAN AND DOES MEAN TO MANKIND. "CAN", because many men reject the preaching of the cross and the Living Saviour who PAID IT ALL.
 

[Heidi]

AMEN, Bep!!! I believe that Sojourner has strayed so far away from Jesus's words and into his own mind that he feels like a God himself. That is born out by his phrase that man separates himself from other men by his belief in Christ. His teachings are the absolute opposite of Jesus's teachings. Only when he receives the Holy spirit will he be led into the truth. Until then, conversing with him will be a waste of time.

[Allinall]

*Goes about collecting pearls...*

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to Heidi,

I'm almost convinced that you are correct about it being a waste of time trying to teach the Gospel of God's Grace to Sojourner. Many have already tried.

Small children can and do accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour. Our Lord and Saviour would have us all come to HIM with hearts like a child. The Gospel of the Grace of God can be understood and accepted by a child. One does not need any big words or degrees to explain the Gospel of the Grace of God. If a child can't understand it, you didn't give them the ONE GOSPEL, THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD. Obviously, the ONE and only GOSPEL is all about who Jesus Christ was, what Jesus Christ did for us,  who our Living Saviour is today and forever, and what we need to do to ask Jesus Christ into our hearts as our Lord and Saviour. All of the above can be put in very simple terms that children can understand.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Reba]

*Goes about collecting pearls...*

Enough pearls in that coffee cup and you will over flow...

[sojourner]

Blackeyedpeas,

You have a lot of broad blank strokes to your brush. A lot of diatribe which had absolutely nothing worth while  and not related to what I had stated.
 
You have had two posts to put forth some semblence of an argument to show that what you teach is from the original teaching, rather than from the understanding of some modern teacher, with a little of personal blackeyedpeaism thrown in. Until you can prove it, it still stands as a man-made doctrine with no validity in relation to the True Gospel.
As I stated before that is acceptable if you choose to so believe. But claim it as original, lets see your documentation. You have 2000 years of record to help you.

waste of time trying to teach the Gospel of God's Grace

Just another unproven assertion. Its Blackeyedpeasim until shown to be different.

If a child can't understand it, you didn't give them the ONE GOSPEL, THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD. Obviously, the ONE and only GOSPEL is all about who Jesus Christ was, what Jesus Christ did for us,

You are correct that a child can understand the Gospel. However, I didn't think I needed to bring it down to that level for you. A child matures and is taught the meat of faith. After all. one lives what they believe including how they understand doctrine. However, you seem to have a very difficult time as an adult. I would think as one you could get beyond the childish understanding and be able to show that what you believe has always been believed by all since the beginning.

However, I tend to agree with Allinall. Matt 7:6; I Cor 2:14.

[nChrist]

[Brother Love]

So few will be saved...

No Wonder