So few will be saved

[His Messenger]

Blackeyedpeas,

Nice copout. Don't have the answer so make a personal attack. That is always a sign or maturity.

I agree

[Allinall]

Blackeyedpeas,

Nice copout. Don't have the answer so make a personal attack. That is always a sign or maturity.

I agree

I love this.  The man gives truth from God's word that is not agreed with by sojourner.  He then says that given time and spiritual maturity sojourner will grow to see the truth.  And this is a copout because BEP doesn't know what the truth is?  How truly arrogant we must be to assume that because BEP makes an honest statement that he is avoiding his lack of knowing the "truth."  No copout.  Truth.

[nChrist]

Blackeyedpeas,

Nice copout. Don't have the answer so make a personal attack. That is always a sign or maturity.

I agree

Brother Love, The Crusader, Ambassador4Christ, Cyber Pope, Warrior For Christ, His Messenger, Etc.,

Answer him then and waste your time if you wish.

[sojourner]

I Believe,

Context is the Resurrection of the dead (future) not those who sleep in Christ today.

The context is in answer to the questioner about whose wife will she be, which is in reference to the future resurrection. However, Christ also indicates that they are alive in Christ today as well. Our spirit lives on until we recieve our glorified bodies.

"They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

This is in reference to the first resurrection. the spiritual one that takes place at baptism. As members of His Body within His Church we reign with Christ today in His Kingdom.

When does the corruptible put on incorruption?  When are we all changed?  When is the corruption removed so that we may inherit inherit the Kingdom of God?

At the last day when Christ appears. We then as the spotless bride of Christ will be presented to the Father and inherit the Kingdom prepared for us. Paradise and the Kingdom we inherit is the same.

Is there a scriptural account of the living communicating with those who sleep in Christ or asking those who have passed beyond the Earth to intercede for them?

You will not find any direct command because the references that are in the Bible are from principles already in existance.  You look at the Bible the opposite of the way we do.  You look at it deductively, we look at it inductively.  We have Holy Tradition which brought forth the NT which unlies the text.  Because you have not accepted all of Revelation, only the written, you constantly look for principles which will never be there. Thus many references and texts really have no meaning for you or you put your own understanding on them.

 Why does God command us to pray for one another (Rom. 15:30; 2 Cor. 1:11; Eph. 6:18-19; 1 Thes. 5:25; 1 Tim. 2:1; James 5:14-18) if we can pray to God on our own, for ourselves and we need no one else but Jesus? The REAL QUESTION is not "why intercession of the saints" but  why intercession at all.
Western philosophy has influenced the thinking of modern Christians to think of salvation and relationship to Christ as individualism and external as opposed to community/communion and internal.
Trinitarian Theology: We are created for communion. God is Three persons in one essence. So is man. This is the basis of the Great Commandment.

God IS communion, we are created in His image. Intercession is communion, sharing a common life, humanity and being connected to one another through Christ. Orthodoxy: No one is saved alone. "Where two or three are gathered"; I Tim. 4:5 "You are sanctified by the Word of God and prayer" Acts 1:14 Disciples were in one accord in prayer and supplication. I Cor. 12 baptized into one body, the Church, all members of one another, Vine and branches, share a common source of life/the same life in Christ.  We, as Christians, MUST share in the sufferings and life of other Christians, and will continue to do so after death.

The historical witness shows  that intercession of the saints was not outside of the mind or piety of the early Church, who used the LXX (Septuagint) Greek translation of the Hebrew OT, and its Deuterocanonicals (Apocrypha) for teaching and instruction.

I know you do not use or consider the Apocrypha, however, in The Apocrypha : Tobit gives a valuable insight into popular Jewish spirituality in the century or two before Christ. The writer has the angel Raphael say, "When you and Sarah your daughter-in-law prayed,
I brought remembrance of your prayers before the Holy One... I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints, and who go in and out before the glory of the Holy One."
Maccabbees 15:12 Judas Maccabbees sees a vision of the departed Onias praying for the Jews, and the Prophet Jeremiah also prays for them and appears to him and gives him a golden sword to conquer with. This is why the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus would have made sense to Jesus’ Jewish audience. They believed that the dead can communicate among themselves and with those who are on the earth. This was the belief that the early Christians brought into the Church and saw affirmed in Christ as indicated in Revelation, Hebrews, etc.
That is where Protestants again have trouble finding direction. There are no principles necessarily because this was an extablished practice and the Bible only contains glimpses.
LXX was the "Bible of the NT Church" which contained the Apocrypha. Jude 9, Michael and Satan; 2 Tim. 3:8 Jannes and Jambres. The Apocrypha was used for instruction and doctrine.
The Roman catacombs (circa 2nd century) inscription:
 "Pray for thy parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year and 51 days."
            "Januaria, take thy good refreshment, and make request for us."
            "Atticus: sleep inpeace, secure in thy safety, and pray anxiously for our sins;"
            "Martyrs, holy, good, blessed, help Quiracus."
            "Peter and Paul, help Primitivus, a sinner."
            "Paul and Peter, have us in mind in your prayers, and more than us."
            "Paul and Peter, pray for Victor."

The biggest problem Protestants have is that they continually compare with the Roman Catholic Church. Rome has added and changed the practice and Gospel from the original, thus the reaction to it because of its abuse. Romans added merit, indulgences, and built it into  Purgatory, which the Reformers recognized as incorrect, but their solution was an error as well.
It would do protestants and western Christians in general to put Roman Catholicism behind them. They are still a negative religion or a constant protest. I can understand the people in the time of the dark ages, even middle ages and possibly until the 19th and 20th century. But today there is no reason why anyone cannot know much more about the Original Christians their witness without being clouded by Roman Catholicism.

The crux of the matter, for we who are in Christ are one body in him, and that body organic, and the parts of that body have one nous, that of Christ, and have a high level of interactivity one with another in love and healing and intercession. Salvation is not a "me and God" affair, but a "we in Christ"...  And we pray one for another, and the medium of communication for a Christian is prayer - The overtly verbal is but a small portion of a Christian's communal life.  We live in Spirit and in Truth, not in words and proofs, and we have life in Christ, and that life does not die with physical death, for it is not a physical life, but spiritual...  So that death is no barrier to communication in spirit, and the medium of communication in spirit is prayer, and we can pray to God, and to other Christians, for prayer is of the nous, as well as the common prayer that is the work of the Church in liturgy.
We believe that we worship all together in the heavenly temple whenever we are gathered in the Eucharist.

Within the Body of  Christ, we work together, all helping one another.  God could have opened Saul's eyes without Ananias.  He could have healed the sick without St. Paul's touch.  He could reveal Himself directly to us without sending preachers.  But instead, both in this present life and in the life to come, God gives us the unspeakable honor of allowing us to be co-ministers with Him to one another.  We get the chance to keep on performing acts of love for one another.  To share His ministry is part of sharing His Life, part of being like Him and always acting, speaking, thinking, in union with Him.

God practically never dishes out His grace without going through someone else. Rarely do you see in the Bible God acting apart from going through someone, whether that be Moses, King David, the prophets, the Apostles, and the list could go on and on. He specifically said that we would actually do greater things than He did, and our history of the saints proves that they did indeed do miracles equal to and greater in degree than Christ did while on earth.

My last point. Even if Protestants had a direct command in the Bible they would probably find a way to explain it away so as to fit their respective presupposition. Same as they do with baptism and the Eucharist.

Several of the text you used, I Believe, I don't see a connection or possibly not understanding how you are attempting to use them for your understanding of the Invocation of the Saints.


           

[I_Believe]

I brought remembrance of your prayers before the Holy One... I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints, and who go in and out before the glory of the Holy One."

On it's face this account is absolutely absurd.  

God has angels to bring to remembrance the prayers of the saints even though:
  A) He already knows all things
  B) The Holy Spirit helps our weakness in prayer by interceding for us
  C) Your Father knows what things you need, before you ask him

This is the boldness which we have toward him, that, if we ask anything according to his will, he listens to us. And if we know that he listens to us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions which we have asked of him. (1Jo 5:14-15)

Our prayers are not to inform God about our needs but to align our spirit and will with His.

In the same way, the Spirit also helps our weaknesses, for we don't know how to pray as we ought. But the Spirit himself makes intercession for us with groanings which can't be uttered. He who searches the hearts knows what is on the Spirit's mind, because he makes intercession for the saints according to God. We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose. (Rom 8:26-28)

because if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. Beloved, if our hearts don't condemn us, we have boldness toward God; and whatever we ask, we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do the things that are pleasing in his sight. This is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, even as he commanded. He who keeps his commandments remains in him, and he in him. By this we know that he remains in us, by the Spirit which he gave us. (1Jo 3:20-24)

But you, when you pray, enter into your inner chamber, and having shut your door, pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. In praying, don't use vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their much speaking. Therefore don't be like them, for your Father knows what things you need, before you ask him. Pray like this: 'Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy. Let your Kingdom come. Let your will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors. Bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. For yours is the Kingdom, the power, and the glory forever. Amen.' (Mat 6:6-13)

This is the reason the tradition is not given much credence by those who believe that all Scripture is God-breathed and that man's traditions in or out of the "Church" are suspect.

[sojourner]

Heidi,

Well, Sojourner, I am a Christian, My doctrine is the bible, not a doctrine made up by men who think of themselves as holy.

No one doubts, but what kind.  Obviously you don't agree with the Apostles, you disparage them in favor of yourself.  You also have not yet proven that yours in nothing but your very own interpretation. Show it as the Gospel once given for all of humanity from the very beginning.

You don't have to believe the bible. You can believe a church doctrine instead which changes as fast as the weather.

That is based on your misunderstanding of what is Church and what is the Body of Christ.  I believe in Christ first and foremost. He is the Church, so I also believe in the Church.  The history of that NT portion of Christ's interaction with His Church is called Scripture.
Your statement about changes will need to be proven. Again, as I suspect you are mouthing more of your hatred to the Roman Catholics be it person(s) or organization. Before you make sweeping statements you need to be sure of your facts.

Jesus said; "Heaven and earth will pass away but my words will never pass away." The words in the catholic doctrine have passed away MANY times. If one is more familiar with Jesus's words than any church doctrine, then he is following Jesus, not idol worshipping the minds of men.

Again, you know nothing of what you speak. Prove your allegations.
The problem you have is that you need to separate Jesus's words from Church history, doctrine because they are one and the same.
Or is it really a question that you don't really believe in THE historical, Biblical Jesus? Just a

[sojourner]

I Believe,

You are again taking a few versus and establishing a whole doctrine on it which does not take into consideration all the other versus to the contrary. In fact the statement you made about the Father knowing before we ask, then later you quote a verse, that we must ask. And that is the point.

Same as with salvation in general. You are of the belief that God actually does everything for you and you don't need to do anything. He is up there, you are down here and He is dispensing salvation.  He actually saved you, when in effect you need to acknowledge Him and seek repentance. That is of your past but really a change of direction.
By the texts you quoted it sums up what I had stated in my previous post. Protestants have this individualism about Christianity. You are saying that you don't really need to pray for your brothers, not even for the unsaved.  Everything you are attempting to point out makes it anti-christian. It is never 'I' or 'me'. It is always 'other'.  It is all communion of community. All IN Christ, not individually, but in unity. This is the unity that Christ prayed for in His prayer in John 17. This is an organic, ontological unity He is speaking about.
Protestants use the language but they practice and believe externally, individually.
That brings me to your statement:

Our prayers are not to inform God about our needs but to align our spirit and will with His.

That is correct but just what do you think His will is?
Since you use the Bible as your basis, you should not have any trouble with this one. It is plainly written all over it. Including the 'making oneself pure' and that we were created for the very works that you constantly disparage. That is precisely the salvation of man as it was the salvation of Adam. You just don't see the similarity or requirement of our created purpose. It is all about communion of community.

The Bible is a cohesive whole. It is a seamless garment. Protestants pick and choose, take some verses, disregard others that speak the opposite or possibly they don't understand or have disjointed doctrine, such as OSAS, and penal-substitutionary attonement, that sin is God's problem not man's. God changes to accommodate man rather than man to accommodate God.
or to say it biblically, align man's will with God's.

Things like this is the reason the tradition is not given much credence by those who believe that all Scripture is God-breathed and that man's traditions in or out of the "Church" are suspect

That is the problem that you have. We don't have that problem when we use all of Revelation and the witness of both the saints and the Holy Spirit through history.

On the other hand you have a monumental problem in showing that anything that you believe based on the Bible is anything but man-made.  The Bible is an inanimate object, that's why it is said to be objective. However, those who read are definitely not objective. If they were, you would have everyone arriving at the same opinion and belief. Then of course, you need to interpret because you don't have the rest or the basis of the written. Then of, course you are in violation of some pretty clear scripture. So you want it both ways. Your personal doctrine and disregard or rationalize a direct command to the contrary away.

You have to realize that all heresy, all false teaching, all anti-christian teachings are based on something in the Bible. How do you guard either yourself from false teaching or falling for false teaching. From what I gather it is mostly reason and logic.  Can you find anything in scripture that says that this is the basis of understanding? I'm not speaking here of using any but as the ground of interpretation.
As well as limiting yourself to only what is written.

[I_Believe]

That is correct but just what do you think His will is?
Since you use the Bible as your basis, you should not have any trouble with this one. It is plainly written all over it. Including the 'making oneself pure' and that we were created for the very works that you constantly disparage.

You were made alive when you were dead in transgressions and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the children of disobedience; among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ  (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus; for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, that no one would boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them. (Eph 2:1-10)

But when the kindness of God our Savior and his love toward mankind appeared, not by works of righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly, through Jesus Christ our Savior; that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Tit 3:4-7)

The good works were prepared by God that we would walk in them after we have been saved by grace, through faith, according to his mercy.

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God. (Rom 8:16)

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints who are at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ... having predestined us for adoption as children through Jesus Christ to himself...making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him to an administration of the fullness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, in him; in whom also we were assigned an inheritance, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his will; to the end that we should be to the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: in whom you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation,--in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is a pledge of our inheritance, to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of his glory. (Eph 1:1-14)

I have other sheep, which are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will hear my voice. They will become one flock with one shepherd... I told you, and you don't believe. The works that I do in my Father's name, these testify about me. But you don't believe, because you are not of my sheep, as I told you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. (Joh 10:16-28)

But I make known to you, brothers, concerning the Good News which was preached by me, that it is not according to man. For neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came to me through revelation of Jesus Christ...But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me through his grace, to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I didn't immediately confer with flesh and blood, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia. Then I returned to Damascus. (Gal 1:11-17)

But when Peter came to Antioch, I resisted him to his face, because he stood condemned...But when I saw that they didn't walk uprightly according to the truth of the Good News, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live as the Gentiles do, and not as the Jews do, why do you compel the Gentiles to live as the Jews do? (Gal 2:11-14)

We are not called to follow blindly after the traditions of men. We are EACH called to test all things.
How? Through the scripture and the Spirit.

Don't quench the Spirit. Don't despise prophesies. Test all things, and hold firmly that which is good. (1Th 5:19-21)

Every Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-17)

Who are you that judges another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. But he will stand, for God is able to make him stand. One indeed esteems a day above another day; and another esteems every day alike. Let each one be fully assured in his own mind. (Rom 14:4-5)

So then each one of us will give account of himself to God. Therefore let's not judge one another any more, but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling block in his brother's way, or an occasion for falling. (Rom 14:12-13)

Beloved, while I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I was constrained to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For there are certain men who crept in secretly, even those who were long ago written about for this condemnation: ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master, God, and Lord, Jesus Christ. (Jud 1:3-4)

"once for all delivered to the saints" - Not the tradtitions that man added 100, 300, 1000 years later

[I_Believe]

That is correct but just what do you think His will is?
Since you use the Bible as your basis, you should not have any trouble with this one. It is plainly written all over it. Including the 'making oneself pure' and that we were created for the very works that you constantly disparage.

Beloved, now we are children of God, and it is not yet revealed what we will be. But we know that, when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is. Everyone who has this hope set on him purifies himself, even as he is pure. (1Jo 3:2-3)

Are we supposed to grow more like Christ while we remain? Yes!  But we do not earn or acquire any more justification before God by our works of righteousness.

But their minds were hardened, for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains, because in Christ it passes away. But to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. But whenever one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord, the Spirit. (2Co 3:14-18)

Will we ever be fully transformed while we remain? No!

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when that which is complete has come, then that which is partial will be done away with. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child. Now that I have become a man, I have put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, even as I was also fully known. (1Co 13:9-12)

[sojourner]

I Believe,

You quoted a lot of texts that do not make your point, in fact, they actually speak against it. It is all in the presuppositions and understanding on which your interpretation stands.

We are not called to follow blindly after the traditions of men. We are EACH called to test all things. How? Through the scripture and the Spirit. Yes, but Paul is assuming you know the Truth as he instructed Timothy. In order to discern error, to test all things, you must know the Truth, and if it does not align with the Gospel, that is the  original, not what you have interpreted it in modern version.

Test all things, and hold firmly that which is good. (1Th 5:19-21)

In order to hold firmly you need to know what that is. Protestants are trying to find out just what Truth is, that is interpreting salvation to fit their format, then, any other belief that does not align with theirs is false. Yet both are from the same springboard.
We accept what was given by faith. That is all of it. One should not try to reinvent revelation contrary to what the very Gospel explicitly warns against.
Saying we have Scripture and that is the Gospel once given. But the interpretation was also given, some of it is within the written text. Protestants seem to think that Scripture was written by the Holy Spirit in total isolation of any purpose until the 15th century.  
Very clearly, the Bible states that He established His Church, endowed it with all Truth, He would remain with them continually, not leave them and reappear in the 15th century and hand over a book which could be individually dissected and any belief would be 'saving'. Given most Protestants view of clear scripture, the Holy Spirit failed miserably, and besides is a liar. If so, why believe in even the Bible, it would have no authority.

Are we supposed to grow more like Christ while we remain? Yes!  But we do not earn or acquire any more justification before God by our works of righteousness.

Here again you are referring to the object of all protestants protestations. It is Roman Catholic doctrine that you are opining against. What you may not realize is that all of Protestantism is based on the same erroneous footing. It is called the forensic theory.
The earning and merit is a hangover from the Romans. You don't find in Orthodoxy. The word 'justification' actually means in these instances, to be made righteous or right. There is no merit or even reward as it is referred to by protestants. (again, ALL men have been made right, justified, we appropriate it by faith) We do it because it is love, it is communion. It is living IN Christ.  However, the Romans also attached the legal connotation to it, at least Anselm and Abelard did who developed this theory about salvation.  Saying what you do about Salvation is a very logical result from this theory. In short, it means that when one accepts Christ, Christ declares them 'not guilty'.(notice, no change in nature or person here) In a legal sense you cannot be half guilty or partially guilty.  It also means for most that they are completely free and all future sins are forgiven as well from that moment without any further action on the part of the believer.  (It is very logical for OSAS also - it springs from the same root). It is also an external event, an external relationship, yet the Bible is quite clear that we have an intimate, personal relationship, in communion, unity the same as the Trinity, in Christ. That is not a legal arrangement. You need to show just how theologically from Scripture you can go from external to internal.

As with any theory thrown at Scripture it does not hold up. First, it was developed from a metaphor to describe salvation which is actually described in scripture several other ways as well. It does not fit reality. First, Christ's work was not first and foremost about sin. Another protestant error taken over from this theory. It was about overcoming Death, the illness that brings sin. Christ's work also included the forgiveness of  sin because He did not get rid of sin at this point. We are to war against this disease all the while we are called to bring humanity and the created order back to God through the person of Christ who works through only His Church, because it is His Body.  He calls all men to repentance, an outward working which we as believers assist Him in reconciling the world to Himself. He does this THROUGH us, through our volition. He is not doing it for us in any shape or manor. It is a thorough, voluntary, cooperation of man with God.

He did not save us nor creation as an idle thought. We were saved in order to do those works which were ordained for us before the foundations of the world. That is our purpose in living, in being created. And you sincerely want God to do this for you? You want this as a result of being saved.  God saved mankind, our nature which we could not do of ourselves, it is up to man to participate, cooperate with God in the saving of the person. Almost all of the texts you use are specifically speaking to this work. Again this was Adam's purpose. He chose to do it on his own and fell from Grace. Literally, eternally. We cannot ever lose what Christ accomplished, not even  unbelievers. They  will also receive immortal bodies in the eschoton. However, if they actively reject Christ during their lives and never have repentance, they will suffer separation, death, once again, though not a separation of body and soul.

"once for all delivered to the saints" - Not the tradtitions that man added 100, 300, 1000 years later

Again, you have not proven this and no traditions have changed  since those delievered by Paul and the other Apostles. Again, a lot of them were added by the Romans after 1054. These are those of which you speak. You forgot all those you are adding which cannot be proven by the historical record in typical modern protestantism. Most protestants would have a hard time bringing any continuity back to the 15th century.

Will we ever be fully transformed while we remain? No!

You do realize that is a contradiction based on what you actually believe or at least of what you are stating.
ergo, if one is justified completely, declared 'not guilty', then one is also completely saved, per your view. That also means that we are instantly completely transformed, conformed to His image in this life. Yet, you say no, here. Why?
At this point it does not matter who is doing it, it is being done and one could not possibly say, one is finitely 'saved'.

[I_Believe]

Here again you are referring to the object of all protestants protestations. It is Roman Catholic doctrine that you are opining against. What you may not realize is that all of Protestantism is based on the same erroneous footing. It is called the forensic theory.
The earning and merit is a hangover from the Romans. You don't find in Orthodoxy. The word 'justification' actually means in these instances, to be made righteous or right. There is no merit or even reward as it is referred to by protestants. (again, ALL men have been made right, justified, we appropriate it by faith) We do it because it is love, it is communion. It is living IN Christ.  However, the Romans also attached the legal connotation to it, at least Anselm and Abelard did who developed this theory about salvation.  Saying what you do about Salvation is a very logical result from this theory. In short, it means that when one accepts Christ, Christ declares them 'not guilty'.(notice, no change in nature or person here) In a legal sense you cannot be half guilty or partially guilty.  It also means for most that they are completely free and all future sins are forgiven as well from that moment without any further action on the part of the believer.  (It is very logical for OSAS also - it springs from the same root). It is also an external event, an external relationship, yet the Bible is quite clear that we have an intimate, personal relationship, in communion, unity the same as the Trinity, in Christ. That is not a legal arrangement. You need to show just how theologically from Scripture you can go from external to internal.

I am not entirely clear on what you are saying that you believe.  I think it might also be helpful for you to clearly state which statements that I have made that are contradictory.

Thank You.

[sojourner]

I Believe,

I am not entirely clear on what you are saying that you believe.  I think it might also be helpful for you to clearly state which statements that I have made that are contradictory.

Very simply, that Christ died for me and saved me as a human being along with His creation. He justified, made right all men with God. It is the joining of the Body and Soul, though finalized in the eschoton is lived out in our life on earth. By Grace, while we ALL were sinners Christ died for ALL of us. What for? So that mankind could again be in communion with God. That man could once again attain the object for which he was created, to bring as a sacrifice himself and the created order back to God. Going from Image to Likeness. From simply man to the Divine Nature. II Pet 1:4

That was the correction of the nature of man. We also have an essence that makes us all the same as humans. It is called personhood. It is the opposite of individual.  The primary characteristics are that we are free, distinctive, and communal.  
We in our sinful nature here on earth cannot achieve the goal without a lot of help from God, through the work of the Holy Spirit and the salvfic aids he has provided for us humans living in a real fallen world. That is the work we do as believers IN Christ once we acknowledge him as Lord of our lives and are joined, literally, with Him, to accomplish the task set before us.
It is the reason God sent Christ to save mankind, so God could save His created order through the work of man.
That work is man's salvation (individually) But, we are saved as a community, as a Church, the Body of Christ. There is a organic unity that is at work in the world. Not just individuals acting on their own.  Faith is the doorway, the entrance into the Kingdom. Work is not the result of faith, it is Faith in action. The prize is not rewards, but Christ Himself.
Again, that separates Christ's redeeming work, the objective part, from the subjective part which is man's acceptance of that free Gift and avails himself of the obligation of his created tasks.
It would be presumptous to assume God's judgement simply on the single mental event of faith at some point in a person's life. It is also presumptous to think that God would then do for you what He created you to do in the first place.

Contradiction.

Will we ever be fully transformed while we remain? No!

I thought I was clear on this, but possibly an assumption on my part and possibly a misunderstanding of the inconsistancy that Protestants have with what they say, and the theology of what they say.

However, once again  as you state, man is saved by faith, a single momentary event in ones life and you are finitely saved unto eternity and cannot lose ones salvation. You then say that the works of righteousness that the Bible talks about is what results from this faith. That we do it for some rewards but it does not save us. It is the fruit of that faith. just evidence of faith, but not salvation itself.

Then you made the statement in the quote above. Total contradiction. Being transformed is the salvation of man. It is the result of the works of faith. It is the prize, the reward, we call it Theosis. If works do nothing, surely they are not transforming you. But it is a correct assessment of our life here on earth. Not perfection here but in eternity. Even our entrance into heaven, we will be purified to remove any unrighteousness still within us. That is the text I Cor 3:15. It would be great if we all could build with gold, but most of us will have an assortment of straw, sand and sticks.

[Heidi]

I got news for you, sojourner, EVERYONE who goes to church thinks he's a Christian! But this contradicts Jesus's words that many who call upon His name will not enter the kingdom of heaven. It also contradicts his words that there will be many false teachers. Jesus said; "My sheep listen to my voice. No one can snatch them out of my hand." Yet there are many people who call themselves Christians who not only believe Jesus is lying when he said that, but have also "deconverted".  "Professed" Christians are precisely the group to whom Jesus is referring when He talks about a wolf dressed in SHEEP'S clothing. That means an unbeliever who masquerades as a SHEEP (His sheep are His true believers.)

[sojourner]

Heidi,

If you believe the words you wrote, the very words have a false teaching within them. False based on the teaching of the Apostles, which is Jesus's words, and not your self-proclaimed gospel.
So who is the wolf?

Now, if you are claiming that I am, you will need to prove that. Your simple assertion based on your self-interpretation does not make it so.

You have yet to show that the Apostles actually taught what you say they do.
Otherwise it is simply idle words.

[I_Believe]

Then you made the statement in the quote above. Total contradiction. Being transformed is the salvation of man.

The word transformed in the context that I used it is to be conformed to the image of Christ,  a process that is not completed while we are still in our corrupt flesh.  How do we know this?  Because we all still sin.

According to his mercy, he saved us applying to us the righteousness which is from God by faith.

Good works in obedience to God through the leading of His Spirit and Word are good and profitable to men that they may not be unfruitful.


"I count all things to be loss...that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith"

"not by works of righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us"

"those who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men;...that they may not be unfruitful"

"Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on, if it is so that I may take hold of that for which also I was taken hold of by Christ Jesus...to the extent that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule...For our citizenship is in heaven, from where we also wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will change the body of our humiliation to be conformed to the body of his glory"


But God, being rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ  (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus; for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, that no one would boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them. (Eph 2:4-10)

For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh; ...Yes most certainly, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus, my Lord, for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and count them nothing but refuse, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed to his death; if by any means I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on, if it is so that I may take hold of that for which also I was taken hold of by Christ Jesus. Brothers, I don't regard myself as yet having taken hold, but one thing I do. Forgetting the things which are behind, and stretching forward to the things which are before, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, think this way. If in anything you think otherwise, God will also reveal that to you. Nevertheless, to the extent that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule. Let us be of the same mind. Brothers, be imitators together of me, and note those who walk this way, even as you have us for an example...For our citizenship is in heaven, from where we also wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will change the body of our humiliation to be conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working by which he is able even to subject all things to himself. (Phi 3:3-21)

For we were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But when the kindness of God our Savior and his love toward mankind appeared, not by works of righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly, through Jesus Christ our Savior; that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This saying is faithful, and concerning these things I desire that you affirm confidently, so that those who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men; ...Let our people also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they may not be unfruitful...(Tit 3:3-15)

We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose. For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. Whom he predestined, those he also called. Whom he called, those he also justified. Whom he justified, those he also glorified. (Rom 8:28-30)

Therefore I urge you, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service. Don't be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what is the good, well-pleasing, and perfect will of God. (Rom 12:1-2)

Perfect harmony.  We are declared righteous by faith in Christ and strive to become like Christ through the leading of the Holy Spirit.  At some future time whether you believe it is at our physical death or when Christ returns "when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is." The Lord Jesus Christ; who will change the body of our humiliation to be conformed to the body of his glory.

Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. (1Co 15:51-53)