So few will be saved

[sojourner]

Rich,
Ok,

[michael_legna]

Your focus on prayer allowed you to miss the point of Jesus's phrase which is that if you believe that you have received whatever you ask for, it will be yours.

Heidi, you don't get to determine what Jesus' point was in that phrase.  

The point is that both prayer and believing are required unless of course you want to ignore part of what He said or twist His words.

[michael_legna]

Jesus said that few will be saved. I believe Him because I believe he knows better than we do. Others don't have to believe Him.

Actually Jesus never said that, you are just twisting His words again to suit your doctrine.

here is what was really said.

Luk 13:23  Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Luk 13:24  Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

See they ask Jesus if only a few will be saved.  he never says yes He never says no.  he does say that many will try to enter in by the broad way - but that doesn't mean that there won't also be many who enter in by the straight way.  he said many not almost all, not most, not even a majority, just many - which leaves room for many to enter the straight way.

You really need to read your scripture more carefully Heidi.

[michael_legna]

Okay let's get this over with. 1st FAith ALONE is a Human invention. Luther invent it and added it to his German translation of the Bible, hence sola fide. I don't remember the verse of hand i think he added it to romans. If any one knows pls posted it 2nd Salvation is not a personal or individual matter. Thus Jesus cannot be my or your personal saviour. He died for all of mankind, whether we accept this gift or not is an individuals choice. Salvation is communal. OUR FATHER who art in heaeven...ect NOT MY FATHER....  Love, Hope and FAith out these Love is the Greatest. So faith is never alone. When one has faith one has blessings and graces, again faith is not alone.  Works is the products of Love, faith and hope. We do wokrs to show our Love , our faith and our Hope. Salvation is not a matter of faith alone.

It was Romans 3:28 that Luther changed to include the word alone.

The following URL takes you to a site concerning his German translation.

http://demo.lutherproductions.com/historytutor/basic/reformation/story/luther_german.htm


Rom 3:28  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith ALONE without the deeds of the law.

The bold caps are Luthers addition to the word of God that started all this.  Until that time the idea of faith alone accepting the gift of salvation was unknown in Christianity.

[michael_legna]

1st FAith ALONE is a Human invention.

Ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!!        

So, you've never read the Bible, huh?

Faith alone never appears anywhere in the Bible except in the following verse.

Jam 2:17  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

The only other place that comes closes to it is a reference to faith only, but that verse in the Bible also teaches the opposite of salvation by faith alone.

Jam 2:24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

There are verses that say it is by grace through faith not of works and the like.  But they are speaking not of faith alone, but faith without works of the letter of the law trying to merit salvation - these verses do not speak against works of love fulfilling the spirit of the law which are part of a living faith and serve to perfect and enliven that faith.

[michael_legna]

The Book of life CANNOT be changed because it's already been written! That is the crux of my whole point!

You just don't know your scripture very well do you Heidi.  of course the Book of Life can be changed.

Rev 3:5  He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Here Christ promises that IF we overcome He will not blot our names out of the Book of Life.  That isn'tmuch of a promise is it if it is not even possible to be blotted out.  Do you really want to accuse Jesus of such empty promises?

[Heidi]

Faith alone definitely does appear in the bible, especially in Jesus's words; "Therefore, i tell you, ask for whatever you want in prayer and believe that you have receieved it, and it will be yours"...unless of course, you take out "and believe that you have received it" because it contradicts your interpretation, Michael. Very telling indeed. By the way, prayer is obvious to me in that sentence. It may not be obvious to the catholics because they aren't sure to whom Jesus wants us to pray. It could be to Mary, or Peter, maybe Paul.  They simply have to guess.

[C C]

Heidi,

Don't get down about Jesus.  I don't know if you saw my post the other day, "Robbers of Hope and Theives of Joy"  It's like, Lord Have Mercy!  Are you sure you're in control?  Why is it that some folks are so adament about their religion?  

You just have to remember, the Pharasees--they didn't change.  They crucified Christ.

You have to remember, the Deciples Took FOREVER to catch on to Jesus' mission.

personally, I ventured off into a conversation with someone that didn't have not one iota of belive in Christ, and suddenly by comparison, Catholics are wonderful!!    It's true.  At least you can agree on some things.  In addition, a few years back, I so much longed to join the catholic church so I could be come a nun.      I'm weird.  You have no idea.  The nun life sounds so exciting to me.  But I'm too big a sinner and the Catholics wont have me.    

I always watch Mother Angelica on the Catholic Channel, and I love her.  Then I have to wonder why so many folks say it's wrong to teach in church.  She's pretty smart.  I just don't pray to the Virgin Mary but instead, I go ahead and ask Jesus to ask her to pray to Him for me.  

I can't seem to quit smoking.  I still use curse words when I'm not careful.  I don't like the Pope.  But besides those things, I don't have that big a problem with Catholics.

One thing I do know, how do you think the Christians of old that couldn't read and write got along in life?  How do you think the peasants that couldn't make it to church in years got along?  You don't have to know everything to have Christ in your heart.

I know God forgives us for not knowing everything and I know God forgives us for knowing too much--or believing stuff that isn't true.  As long as we understand that we are sinners and by Christ's atonement on the cross we are saved.  And there's people in the world so happy about Christ's work on the croos that if you tell them they have to do all this extra stuff, then they'll do it.  I think it's sad that those folks have to do all this extra stuff, and I sure would like to tell them its not necesary, but I don't think it will come between the saved and Christ on judgement day.  Sometimes I think if I were a bit more humble, I would go along with a whole lot of stuff that I refuse to go along with.

I completely disagree with Michael on at least a hundred things, but I think he's a sweetie.    Because if you noticed, no matter how provoked he gets, he never starts taking evil stabs at people. Have you noticed?  Well, maybe with you, but he gets tired of arguements, but I noticed the stuff he says is for the most part, not attacking you, but your words.  He wants you to just agree so he can be happy.    We know that wont happen.  But You want him to agree with YOU.  We know that wont happen.  So what then?

Peace

[Heidi]

I agree that the Pharisees didn't change because they were not called by God. In addition, they were prophesied to crucify Jesus. I, however, do not know who is called by God and who is not. Therefore, If I am led to witness, i will do it in the hopes that if someone is being called by God, that something i say might help. There are many times when I quit because Jesus's words are being trampled on. Then there are other times when i am led to respond.

Michael has accused me of lying many times. If you look back at his posts, Candice, you will see a jab at me in everyone of his responses to me. I feel that when any church, person, or group of people blatanly ignores Jesus's words, sets themselves up as infallible, breaks the first 2 commandments by worshiping people, calls attention to themselves as OUR HOLY FATHER, hoards millions of dollars in gold, etc. ALL IN THE NAME of Jesus is sacreligious. I much prefer to deal with atheists who are at least honest about their unbelief. Jesus was the angriest at the Pharisees because of their hypocrisy. I too am the angirest at those people who exalt themselves as much as the catholic church does.

[michael_legna]

Michael has accused me of lying many times. If you look back at his posts, Candice, you will see a jab at me in everyone of his responses to me.

I didn't start out with jabs at your posts Heidi - I started out simply correcting what you misunderstood about the Catholic Church but you insisted on continuing to repeat these misrepresentations even after you had been corrected many times by myself and others.  To tell an untruth when you know better is to lie.  On top of that you have repeatedly misquoted scripture to get it to say things it is not saying, sometimes not even quoting it the same way two posts in a row.

Pick any post I have made where I accuse you lying in the previous post and I will show you exactly where you did just that in the prior post.  If you do not want to review your behavior history I will understand but don't think you will not be challenged by me when you claim I am the one who abused you after the hatred and prejudice towards Catholics you have exhibited on this forum.

I feel that when any church, person, or group of people blatanly ignores Jesus's words, sets themselves up as infallible, breaks the first 2 commandments by worshiping people, calls attention to themselves as OUR HOLY FATHER, hoards millions of dollars in gold, etc. ALL IN THE NAME of Jesus is sacreligious.

More lies.  

Just because we don't agree with your interpretation you say we ignore Christs word.  You are not Christ.

The Church doesn't set itself up as infallible - Christ was the one that gave the Church the authority to bind and loose on earth as in heaven.  If your Church doesn't claim this authority I wonder how it can even see itself as part of Christ's body.

No Catholic worships anyone other than God.  No one in the Catholic Church worships Mary or any of the saints or the statues.  You cannot continue to repeat these misrepresentations of the teachings of the Catholic Church once you have been corrected concerning them without what you are doing being a lie.

The Pope is holy in that as Webster points out in his definition - We call a man holy,when his heart is conformed in some degree to the image of God, and his life is regulated by the divine precepts. Hence, holy is used as nearly synonymous with good, pious, godly.  The Pope is our spiritual father just as Paul was the spiritual father of the Corinthians.

1Co 4:15  For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

So he is the Holy Father - simple.  It is not claiming the same thing for the Pope that is true of God.  No one in the Catholic Church thinks the Pope is God.

If you want to claim that the Catholic Church hoards millions of dollars in gold you better be willing to prove it or it is just more prejudice talking.

Give up the lies and misrepresentations of the Catholic Church.

[Heidi]

Excuse me? Where did i lie? I will go back to EVERY single one of your responses to me and quote the jabs you have made to me. Do you normally blame others for your actions? I am sick and tired of your accusations that i am lying. You have not proven that I have lied at any time. A lie is a DLIEBERATE DECISION to say something when you KNOW for a fact it is not true. You do not know the difference between that and a miscommunication!

I will do just that.

You don't think that the catholic church has ignored Jesus's words when theY DELIBERATELY use the term 'father' for their religious leaders when Jesus SPECIFICALLY tells us not to? There is  REASON Jesus USES that term because THAT is the term he and ALL of us are SUPPOSED to use for God! But that's meaningless to you and the catholic church! HOW IS THAT A LIE? Do the catholics NOT call the pope, "OUR HOLY FATHER? Jesus said that "no one is good but God alone' yet the catholic church has not only decided that it is good but HOLY and INFALLIBLE as well. Do they NOT do that? How am I lying? Jesus told us that when we fast, disguise ourselves tso that no one will know that we are fasting but God alone. But the catholic church sets aside 40 days for fasting and people put ASHES on their forhead to SHOW that they are fasting! Is that a lie??? Jesus said to be in the world but not of the the world. yet the pope is surrounded by luxurious gold and bronze, gold-studded altars and magnificent attire. How is that being in the world but not OF the world? The vatican has a cauldron of treaures in gold kept inside the vatican (I just saw this the other night in a documentary on the vatican. In addition, the statue of apollo, the Pagan god is in the vatican! Never mind that there is NO place in the bible that says that Mary was a virgin all her life and in fact, the bible says the opposite. And there is CERTAINLY no place in the bible where it says that we are to pray to Mary. In fact, when people in the crowd said "Blessed is the woman who gave birth to you", Jesus said, "Blessed, rather, is the one who hears the word of God and obeys it." These arejust a few examples of how the catholic chuch ignores Jesus's words yet claims to love him. What in ANY of these things do the catholic NOT od? where have I lied?

[michael_legna]

Excuse me? Where did i lie? I will go back to EVERY single one of your responses to me and quote the jabs you have made to me. Do you normally blame others for your actions? I am sick and tired of your accusations that i am lying. You have not proven that I have lied at any time. A lie is a DLIEBERATE DECISION to say something when you KNOW for a fact it is not true. You do not know the difference between that and a miscommunication!

When you say that the Catholic Church says we have to earn our salvation through works and can't even offer a source for such a statement and then I and others correct you on it again and again but you continue to repeat this opinion - then it becomes a lie.

The first time is a mistake, the second time could be due to a miscommunication the thrid time it is you lying just to make it easier for you to hate and attack Catholics.

I will do just that.

You don't think that the catholic church has ignored Jesus's words when theY DELIBERATELY use the term 'father' for their religious leaders when Jesus SPECIFICALLY tells us not to? There is  REASON Jesus USES that term because THAT is the term he and ALL of us are SUPPOSED to use for God! But that's meaningless to you and the catholic church! HOW IS THAT A LIE? Do the catholics NOT call the pope, "OUR HOLY FATHER?

When many on this board have shown you time and time again where your simplistic literal interpretation would also make Paul out to be one who ignores the word of God and you refuse to stop saying that about Catholics, then your statements become a lie because the Catholic Church is doing nothing that Paul did not do and you know it.

Jesus said that "no one is good but God alone' yet the catholic church has not only decided that it is good but HOLY and INFALLIBLE as well. Do they NOT do that? How am I lying?

Again it is your literal, simplistic, childish interpretation of verses that people have corrected you in repeatedly that is getting you in trouble.

Are you claiming that Jesus was not good?

You answered this once saying that because He humbled Himself He was exalted.  Whihc was just a non-answer ducking the question.

So I will ask you more directly.

When Jesus was humbling Himself, before He was exalted - was He good?

Was there ever a time Jesus was not good?

Was there ever a time Jesus was not perfect?

Was there ever a time Jesus was not God?

Because if there was not as I and others here believe, then Jesus was not being literal in that verse and your interpretation is wrong as has been pointed out many times before to you and yet you continue to make your statement, knowing it is wrong and that makes it a lie.

Jesus told us that when we fast, disguise ourselves tso that no one will know that we are fasting but God alone. But the catholic church sets aside 40 days for fasting and people put ASHES on their forhead to SHOW that they are fasting! Is that a lie???

Yes that is a lie.  Lent is for more than fasting and Catholics who observe Lent properly do not make a show of fasting.  The putting of ashes on the forehead has nothing to do with fastign either.  Many Catholics do extra works of service during Lent.  Did you know that?  Well if you didn't then it appears your use of the 40 days of Lent as a showing off is flawed since it didn't help Catholics show off their works did it?  Your misunderstanding of the teachings of the Catholic Church run so deep that you have only the hatred you have been taught to go on - no real facts.  Take my suggestion Heidi and don't make claims about the Catholic Church unless you can document them with unbiased sources, then you will be sure to steer away from errors and from repeating these errors after being corrected in them (which makes your repeated statement a lie).

Jesus said to be in the world but not of the the world. yet the pope is surrounded by luxurious gold and bronze, gold-studded altars and magnificent attire. How is that being in the world but not OF the world? The vatican has a cauldron of treaures in gold kept inside the vatican (I just saw this the other night in a documentary on the vatican. In addition, the statue of apollo, the Pagan god is in the vatican!

Where did you see this?  Nonsense - provide a verifiable unbiased source for these or stop repeating these lies.

Never mind that there is NO place in the bible that says that Mary was a virgin all her life and in fact, the bible says the opposite.

No place in the scriptures say she wasn't either so it is possible she was and all of the early Church Fathers say she was.  So you can believe the history of the Church or you can make up your own mind without any support from the scriptures.  You against the early Church Fathers - guess who I am going to believe?

And there is CERTAINLY no place in the bible where it says that we are to pray to Mary.

And you have been told before that Catholics do not pray to Mary in the sense of adoration.  We pray with her and ask her to pray for us just as we would another Christian here on earth.  But yet you continue to spread this misrepresentation without proof and after being corrected, so you knwo it is not true, that makes what you are saying a lie.

In fact, when people in the crowd said "Blessed is the woman who gave birth to you", Jesus said, "Blessed, rather, is the one who hears the word of God and obeys it."

Yes and scripture also says

Luk 1:28  And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

See the Holy Spirit is saying she is blessed among all women, she favored is above all women.  is the Holy Spirit and Jesus disagreeing here?  No, because Jesus did not intend His statement to be a slam against His mother (that would be dishonoring His mother and breaking a commandment).  Jesus intended this to be a lesson that we could be blessed too, by hearing His word and obeying it.  What happened to faith alone just there?  Why isn't Jesus saying that to be blessed all we have to do is believe?  Because that is not all we have to do and if you read all of scripture and interpret it so it doesn't contradict each other you see that.

Once again your simplistic interpretations have gotten you in trouble.

These arejust a few examples of how the catholic chuch ignores Jesus's words yet claims to love him. What in ANY of these things do the catholic NOT od? where have I lied?

I have showed you all your lies - 8 in all and that is just in this post!  We haven't even covered you misquoting scripture (sometimes in more than one way) just to prove a point.

[Heidi]

Michael, does the catholic church believe or not believe that faith alone saved? If it does not believe that, then it is saying that salvation is dependant on our behavior. Is that true or false? It is the HOLY SPIRIT inside of us that brings us closer to God, Michael. it is the Holy spirit INSIDE of us that gives us the ability to believe Jesus, and do good works. It is God who is the gardner, as Jesus said, and cuts off the branches that bear no fruit. That's why Jesus said; "I can do NOTHING without my Father," and that he himself is not good. He gives complete and total credit for everything he did to the miraculous power of God. he does NOT give it to himself which is why he haid; "He who humbles himself will be exalted."  Therefore, once we receive the Holy Spirit, we are saved because the Holy Spirit, not only will NEVER drive us away, but will LEAD us toward God. That is precisely why faith alone saves. What part of this do you not understand?

And MANY on this board have ALSO shown you that faith ALONE saves, but you continue to ignore them.

Michael, do you know why Jesus said; "no one is good but God alone"? Those are HIS words, NOT mine. I have told you before why Jesus is exalted and that he who humbles HIMSELF will be exalted. Jesus is PERFECT because he tells the truth! His goodness comes fromg GOD, which he clearly says many times, not HIMSELF! I understand why he said that because it is not ME who is good but the Holy Spirit INSIDE of me that brings me into goodness. YOU, however, are saying that WE in and of ourselves are good. Otherwise, why would you even ask me the question of if I think Jesus is good or not? You would KNOW that your goodness comes from God, just as Jesus said that HIS goodness comes from God. What part of Jesus giving the credit for his goodness to GOD, do you not understand?

How do you know that catholics do extra service during lent if they kept it a secret, Michael? I have seen MANY catholics put ashes on their forheads. Why do they do that? Jesus said that people who do things like that are for the praises of men. I don't broadcast my fasting or service because it's between myself and God, and NOT for the praises of men.

Jesus is the Son of God. He always claimed that there is one greater than Himself. That's why He calls God his FATHER. When talking about the hour that he will come, he said, "No one knows the hour, not even the Son, but only the father. he gives omniscience to God and God alone. He acknowledges that he only knows what God has given him to know, which is FAR MORE than the rest of us human beings.

Oh, so not only am i a liar, but the people who were interviewed about the gold that is in the vatican are all liars as well? I've SEEN the vatican. It's  a palace fit for a king! I guess everyone who doesn't agree with your interpretations are all liars. Sorry, Michael, you need to look at the plank in your own eye before trying to remove the mote from others.
 You don't believe Jesus's words when he said that "no one is good but God alone", you don't believe when he says that "no one can snatch them out of my hand" or that we must be born again of water and sprit to enter heaven, that faith ALONE saves when he said, "therefore, i tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, and believe that you have received it, it will be yours." Oh you say that you believe them, but you have just challenged me about Him saying that he is not good, you've challenged me by saying that ANYONE can be snatched out of his hand by simply walking away. Your accusations of lies will NOT cover up your contradictions. They are only done to try to discredit Jesus's words. But you can't openly say you discredit them so you instead say that it's my interpretation of them. My interpretation of them is simply to believe them. But you do not believe Jesus when he said, "no one is good but God alone." I believe Him.

[michael_legna]

Michael, does the catholic church believe or not believe that faith alone saved?

No it does not because the scriptures do not say that it does as I have shown you many times.

If it does not believe that, then it is saying that salvation is dependant on our behavior. Is that true or false?

That is true, but not dependent in a manner in which our behavior earns or merits that salvation.

It is the HOLY SPIRIT inside of us that brings us closer to God, Michael.

Yes but only when we cooperate with the grace given to us by God.  The Holy Spirit does not force us to be closer to God.  He knocks but we must open, He leads but we must follow.

it is the Holy spirit INSIDE of us that gives us the ability to believe Jesus, and do good works.

That is exactly as I have been saying all along, but we must do the works and freely decide to have the faith.  yes the Spirit makes us able to do these things butit is still us doing them, we are not forced to by the Spirit.

It is God who is the gardner, as Jesus said, and cuts off the branches that bear no fruit.

So by your doctrine we can be part of the vine (which is Christ), which means we have the Holy Spirit in us and yet bear no fruit?  How is that possible Heidi?  how did the Holy Spirit fail to produce fruit?  Your doctrine makes no sense.  

The reason we fail to produce fruit even when we are part of the vine and have the Holy Spirit in us is because we fail to cooperate with the Holy Spirit.  It is our failing not the Holy Spirit failing.  And what happens to those of us who fail to cooperate with the Holy Spirit?  We are cast into the fire (hell) and burned.

That's why Jesus said; "I can do NOTHING without my Father," and that he himself is not good.

I ask you again - are you claiming that Jesus was not good?

You answered this once saying that because He humbled Himself He was exalted.  Which was just a non-answer ducking the question.

So I will ask you more directly.

When Jesus was humbling Himself, before He was exalted - was He good?

Was there ever a time Jesus was not good?

Was there ever a time Jesus was not perfect?

Was there ever a time Jesus was not God?

If you answer yes to even one of those questions you are denying the divinity of Jesus.

Heidi - Do you believe that Jesus is God and always was God?

Therefore, once we receive the Holy Spirit, we are saved because the Holy Spirit, not only will NEVER drive us away, but will LEAD us toward God. That is precisely why faith alone saves. What part of this do you not understand?

I don't understand why you cannot provide a single verse that says we are saved by faith alone and the only way you can get to this conclusion is to incorrectly interpret verses in isolation.

And MANY on this board have ALSO shown you that faith ALONE saves, but you continue to ignore them.

Name one and quote their argument or show me the post you claim exists.  Otherwise stop misrepresenting the truth.

Michael, do you know why Jesus said; "no one is good but God alone"? Those are HIS words, NOT mine. I have told you before why Jesus is exalted and that he who humbles HIMSELF will be exalted. Jesus is PERFECT because he tells the truth! His goodness comes fromg GOD, which he clearly says many times, not HIMSELF!

So are you claiming that Jesus is not God?

I understand why he said that because it is not ME who is good but the Holy Spirit INSIDE of me that brings me into goodness. YOU, however, are saying that WE in and of ourselves are good.

No I am not - when did I ever say that - stop misrepresenting my position just to make your look stronger.

We are not good of ourselves, but the grace of God makes it possible for us to do good works.  That has always been my position.  Why do you seek to misrepresent it?

Otherwise, why would you even ask me the question of if I think Jesus is good or not?

I ask you because you seem to imply that you interpret the verse literally when you say that  "His goodness comes fromg GOD, which he clearly says many times, not HIMSELF! "  as if Jesus and God were not the same.

You would KNOW that your goodness comes from God, just as Jesus said that HIS goodness comes from God. What part of Jesus giving the credit for his goodness to GOD, do you not understand?

I do not understand how anyone could take that verse literally when to do so leads one (as it did you) to separate Jesus from God as if His goodness comes from outside.  We know that is not the case (because Jesus is God) so it is clear that verse is not to be taken literally.

How do you know that catholics do extra service during lent if they kept it a secret, Michael?

Well lets see?  Because I am a Catholic and I know what I do.  Or maybe because I know the teachings of the Church and you don't.  Or I work with other Catholics and see them doing it.

I have seen MANY catholics put ashes on their forheads. Why do they do that?

Do you know what is said at the service of Ash Wednesday Heidi?  Do you knwo anything about it other than the outward signs?  And yet you feel comfortable judging it.  Shame shame.

The words spoken are Dust to dust and ashes to ashes.  It is a reminder that we were made by God from the dust of the earth and what we do and what we are so insignificant that we will return to dust.  Only our souls will go on.  So rather than a time of exalting it is a time of humbling.  But you wouldn't understand that because you judge Catholics on your prejudice and biases rather than on a true understanding of what the Church teaches.

Jesus said that people who do things like that are for the praises of men. I don't broadcast my fasting or service because it's between myself and God, and NOT for the praises of men.

Catholics aren't broadcasting their fasting, some don't even fast - do you know which ones?  Guess your little barometer of ashes on the forehead doesn't work.

When talking about the hour that he will come, he said, "No one knows the hour, not even the Son, but only the father.

This is in reference to the jewish wedding custom that the groom (Jesus) would go off and prepare a home for the new bride (the Church) and the father of the groom (the Father) decided when the hosue was good enough so the young man wouldn't in his haste to be married make something unsuitable.  It is a metaphor for the marriage feast of the lamb in heaven at the end of the world.  You would know these type of things if you studied to show yourself approved.  but you want to approach everything in a simplistic literal interpretation which is failing you more and more as we talk.  This verse is not intended to show a separation between God and Jesus.

he gives omniscience to God and God alone. He acknowledges that he only knows what God has given him to know, which is FAR MORE than the rest of us human beings.

So are you claiming that Jesus was just a human being and was not God?  That Jesus is not omniscient? All powerful?  God?

Oh, so not only am i a liar, but the people who were interviewed about the gold that is in the vatican are all liars as well? I've SEEN the vatican. It's  a palace fit for a king!

I don't know about the people interviewed or even if they exist until you provide a verifiable unbiased reference I can check.

I have been to the Vatican as well and it is spendid.  But it is mostly museums which generate moneys to be spent on the poor throughout the world.  The Catholic Church is the largest charity in the world - did you know that Heidi or did you just learn hatred?  The Pope does not live in the splendid rooms of the museum his rooms are comfrotable but modest and I am sure you have never seen those.  But thanks for going to the Vatican the moey you gave the tour company went to help support poor people all over the world.  

[Heidi]

So, Michael, you have shown that i was NOT lying when i said that the catholics don't believe in faith alone, but salvation is dependant upon our behavior. Next time before you accuse me of lying, it would behoove you to read and understand my posts!

How do you think we CO-OPERATE with the Holy spirit? Just luck? or do you think our wonderful nature does it? do you even think?

who do you think LEADS us to do those works? The devil? Our wonderful nature?

It ISN'T possible to bear no fruit if we have the Holy Spirit in us which is PRECISELY why NO ONE CAN SNATCH HIS TRUE SHEEP OUT OUT OF HIS HAND!!!!! That is what I've been saying in MOST of my posts! The branches that bear no fruit are the ones THAT HAVE NO ROOT. The ROOT is the Holy spirit! Again, Jesus said that there will be MANY who call him 'Lord" yet will NOT enter heaven because he never KNEW them. In all of Jesus's passages he synonmizes the word "know" with the Holy Spirit.

And i ask you again; do you not believe Jesus when he said that no one is good but God alone? You still have not answered that question. I have answered your question but you don't know what Jesus means when he said; "He who humbles himself will be exalted." If you understood thsoe words, you would understand my answer, Michael. if you don't then no explanation will suffice until you have the mind of the spirit.