Don't you know partial rapture solves the problem!!

[Christinme]

Come together pre+post

[Bronzesnake]

Come together pre+post

 The Witnesses keep telling anyone who will listen that they are the Jews, and at one time they were convinced that they were the 144,000 from Revelations and once their numbers reached the 144,000 the end of the world would be upon us all. Trouble was that when their numbers actually reached the 144,000 the world didn't end. Then they actually bi-passed the number. They quickly received (new light) and now they tell anyone who will listen that within the J.W. ranks are a "special" 144,000 who will actually reside in Heaven with God at the end of days, and their "lesser" congregation will spend eternity, not in Heaven with God, but rather, in Paradise on earth.

 The truth of the matter is that the 144,000 spoken of in Revelation are actually real 100% bonafide Jews. Not make believe, or "spiritual" wannabee Jews.

Bronzesnake

[aw]

No such thing as a PARTIAl rapture. The BODY of Chhrist is never divided. The TRUMP of 1 Thess is not the last trump of Rev either.

aw

[Bronzesnake]

No such thing as a PARTIAl rapture. The BODY of Chhrist is never divided. The TRUMP of 1 Thess is not the last trump of Rev either.

aw

 It's not the "last trump" of Revelation which sounds at the Rapture my friend...It's "God's" last Trump.

 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  

 Sometimes an angel is sounding the trump such as...

 Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.  

 Look for yourself my friend. The last time you will find God sounding a trump is at the Rapture, found in 1Th 4:16 you won't find God sounding a trump after that, therefore it is the "final trump of God". After that, you will see that the remaining trumps are blown by angels.

 Take care...

 Bronzesnake.

[Christinme]

No such thing as a PARTIAl rapture. The BODY of Chhrist is never divided. The TRUMP of 1 Thess is not the last trump of Rev either.

aw

Partial rapture is the only possibility.


Some people say that the rapture of the church cannot be divided because the body of Christ cannot be divided. It should be noted in reply, however, that the body is a figure of speech which signifies one life, If the body is taken literally, then there is already division today because the Lord is now in heaven, Paul has already died, we remain living on earth, and some believers are yet to be born.

Thessalonians 4.16-17 Do not these verses speak of rapture? Obviously they do, yet they do not specify what time. They deal with the fact of rapture, not with the time of rapture. Thus, they can not be used to prove pre-tribulation rapture.

1 Corinthians 15.50-52 Whether dead or living, all will be raptured. Yet, again, it presents the fact of rapture without specifying a time sequence that would indicate a pre-tribulation rapture. On the contrary, it can be used to prove a post-tribulation rapture. “At the last trump” is a descriptive phrase that is equal to the seventh trumpet cited in Revelation 11.15. Some people advance the theory that according to Roman custom the trumpets are sounded three times. But the Holy Spirit follows no Roman law.

Before the Great Tribulation, the Holy Spirit returns to heaven. Since the church is with the Holy Spirit, it may be assumed that the whole church is raptured before the Great Tribulation. The basis for this assumption is 2 Thessalonians 2.6-7 where the phrase “one that restraineth” is made to refer to the Holy Spirit. Yet “one that restraineth” cannot be the Holy Spirit, for the subsequent clause - “until he be taken out of the way”- is not the proper terminology to be used in speaking about the Holy Spirit. The Third Person of the Trinity has many different names, such as the Spirit, the Spirit of glory, the Spirit of revelation, etc; and the word “Spirit” is usually present - and even though in one instance the word “Comforter” is used alone, yet from the next clause which follows (“even the Spirit of truth”) it is evident that this has clear reference to the Holy Spirit (John 14.16-17). Never do the Scriptures say the Holy Spirit is “he that restrains”; moreover, how can the Holy Spirit be said to “be taken out of the way”? Furthermore, where does the Bible announce that the Holy Spirit is absent during the Great Tribulation? And how can there be the so-called believers of the Great Tribulation if the Holy Spirit is not present? For no one is saved without the Holy Spirit, He who is born of the Spirit is spirit. Moreover, this matter of the Holy Spirit’s presence during the Great Tribulation is clearly shown in Revelation 5: “and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth” (v.6).  The time of the Great Tribulation is the time of the latter rain (see Acts 2.15-21, Joel 2.28-31). The prophecy of Joel was not completely fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. For on that day there were no “wonders in the heaven and in the earth: blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke”; nor was “the sun . . . turned into darkness, and the moon into blood” (Joel 2.30-31). All of these five wonders will be fulfilled around and in the time of the Great Tribulation: blood (first trumpet), fire (first and second trumpets), smoke (fifth trumpet), sun and moon (sixth seal). Pentecost is only a miniature, a foretaste. Peter does not say: “It is fulfilled”; he merely says that “this is that” (Acts 2.16). As a matter of fact, the Holy Spirit is going to do greater work during the time of the Great Tribulation. If there will not be the Holy Spirit present, how can the saints ever endure during the Great Tribulation?

[Christinme]

Come together pre+post

 The Witnesses keep telling anyone who will listen that they are the Jews, and at one time they were convinced that they were the 144,000 from Revelations and once their numbers reached the 144,000 the end of the world would be upon us all. Trouble was that when their numbers actually reached the 144,000 the world didn't end. Then they actually bi-passed the number. They quickly received (new light) and now they tell anyone who will listen that within the J.W. ranks are a "special" 144,000 who will actually reside in Heaven with God at the end of days, and their "lesser" congregation will spend eternity, not in Heaven with God, but rather, in Paradise on earth.

 The truth of the matter is that the 144,000 spoken of in Revelation are actually real 100% bonafide Jews. Not make believe, or "spiritual" wannabee Jews.

Bronzesnake

Of course the 144,000 in Rev. 7.1-8 are bonafide Jews. But the 144,000 are not required to be Jews but can come from any nation. The latter 144,000 are those closest to Christ in the past 2000 years. Once their full number comes in, then first rapture can take place of God's overcomers who are "taken" ready to be received not having to go through the time of testing because they can no longer be hurt by the second death while the left (Matt. 24.37,40-41) also Christians are received at the last trumpet before the bowls as a matter of completion of the body of Christ raptured.

Who are the 144,000? The 144,000 cited in Revelation 7.4 and 144,000 spoken of here in 14.1 are two different classes of people, contrasted as follows:

       (1)   The people of 7.4 are the chosen among the children of Israel, while those of 14.1 are purchased from among men.              

            (2)   The seals received by them are not the same. The one spoken of in 7.2 is “the seal of the living God”, which is Old Testament terminology. The seal alluded to in 14.1 bears the name of the Lamb and the name of the Father, and such names are related to the church. Hence these people must come from the church.

            (3)   The people told about in 7.3 are called “the servants of our God”, but those in view in 14.1 are the children of God (this conclusion is deduced from the name of the Father).

            (4)   Throughout the entire book of Revelation the Lord calls God as Father each time. And He always says it in connection with the church (1.6, 2.27, 3.5, 3.21). The Lord never uses it in connection with Israel.

            (5)   The people spoken of in 14.1ff. are associated with the Lamb (standing with the Lamb, having the name of the Lamb, following the Lamb, and being the first fruits unto the Lamb). In chapter 7 the Lord is seen as another angel; and this, as we have seen, is a returning to His Old Testament position.

            (6)   The song they sing is described in 14.3 as a new song, whereas the song the people mentioned in 7.4 sing is but an old song.

            (7)   The people in view in 14.4 are virgins, but with Israel virginity is to be bewailed. (According to Ex. 23.26, Deut. 7.14, 1 Sam. 2.5, and Ps. 113.9, to bear children is considered a blessing while to be barren is deemed a curse. In Judges 11.38,39 the daughter of Jephthah is said to have bewailed her virginity for two months.)

            (   The articles preceding both of the 144,000 numbers cited in 14.1 and 7.4 are indefinite, and are therefore general and not specific. Thus these 144,000 numbers constitute two different classes.

14.1 The group of 144,000 here is a special class of people in the church; they are not all the people of the church. And the reasons for this conclusion are as follows:

(1) Since the 144,000 figure in 7.4 is taken literally, the number here should also be reckoned as literal.

(2) This group being the first fruits (14.4), it cannot be said that the entire church makes up the first fruits.

(3) There is no such fact that the people in the entire church keep their virginity.

(4) Prior to the arrival of the Great Tribulation (for it is before the voices of the three angels are heard, 14.6-11), these people are already raptured to Mount Zion.

(5) 14.5 tells of the exceptional features of these people, concerning which it cannot be said that all the born-again ones possess such characteristics.

Consequently, the 144,000 standing on Mount Zion are the best of the overcomers of the church; that is to say, this group of 144,000 is representative of the totality of the overcomers.



Some of us are ready to be received sooner than others. There are harbingers in every sphere and advanced parties. It is the very fact that those who are finally ready which causes the war in heaven casting Satan down.

[Christinme]

No such thing as a PARTIAl rapture. The BODY of Chhrist is never divided. The TRUMP of 1 Thess is not the last trump of Rev either.

aw

 It's not the "last trump" of Revelation which sounds at the Rapture my friend...It's "God's" last Trump.

 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  

 Sometimes an angel is sounding the trump such as...

 Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.  

 Look for yourself my friend. The last time you will find God sounding a trump is at the Rapture, found in 1Th 4:16 you won't find God sounding a trump after that, therefore it is the "final trump of God". After that, you will see that the remaining trumps are blown by angels.

 Take care...

 Bronzesnake.

You are both partly right. In the OT all the Word can do is speak in generalities as they pertain to the Last Week Tribulation. But that is what the book of Revelation is for, to give the details and new revelation in it. Its new revelation is that the TRUMP of GOD is broken up into 7 trumpet of 7 years. Each trumpet is of unequal time. Before the first trumpet is rapture of those who are ready, who kept the Word of His patience and were accounted worthy (Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36) who escape the Hour of trial, not just trial but the Hour of time itself. This is the only way God preserves an assurance. Then at the last trumpet of the 7 trumpets right before the bowls the rest of the body is raptured, those who are "taken and left" (1 Thess. 4.15-17)obviously since there were those who were "taken" (Matt. 24.37,40-41)  before hand at first rapture (Rev. 7.9).

You guys, stop contending with each other and come together pre+post.

Praise the Lord! Come, come now.

[Bronzesnake]

Of course the 144,000 in Rev. 7.1-8 are bonafide Jews. But the 144,000 are not required to be Jews but can come from any nation. The latter 144,000 are those closest to Christ in the past 2000 years. Once their full number comes in, then first rapture can take place of God's overcomers who are "taken" ready to be received not having to go through the time of testing because they can no longer be hurt by the second death while the left (Matt. 24.37,40-41) also Christians are received at the last trumpet before the bowls as a matter of completion of the body of Christ raptured.

 This according to the Bible as misinterpreted by  Christinme.

 The 144,00 are Jews, period. Unless you can show me otherwise in the scriptures , and I know you can't my friend. That convoluted reasoning you used to attempt to either split or double the 144,000 does not stand up at all.

 Allow me to make in perfectly clear for you as to who these 144,00 are according to God.

 Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.  


 Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand.  


 Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses [were] sealed twelve thousand.  


 Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar [were] sealed twelve thousand.  


 Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin [were] sealed twelve thousand.  


 

Some of us are ready to be received sooner than others. There are harbingers in every sphere and advanced parties. It is the very fact that those who are finally ready which causes the war in heaven casting Satan down

 That is just twisted my friend. Please, just stick to what God actually says, don't reinvent the wheel.  Michael and his legion of angels do war with satan and cast him out, and I believe there is very good evidence that shows the battle between Michael and satan happens three and a half years after the Rapture, and culminates with satan being tossed from Heaven and down to earth.

 

Some people say that the rapture of the church cannot be divided because the body of Christ cannot be divided. It should be noted in reply, however, that the body is a figure of speech which signifies one life, If the body is taken literally, then there is already division today because the Lord is now in heaven, Paul has already died, we remain living on earth, and some believers are yet to be born.

 That's just ridiculous! The body of Christ is the Christian church. The Christian church is not a reference to a building, it is the Christians as a group. The body means all Christians.

 There is one place in the New Testament which depicts Christians being Raptured...

 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  


 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  


 1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 The only other time we find Christians going to Heaven after that in the New Testament is those who missed the Rapture and are saved ( many by the testimony of the converted 144,000 Jews who are responsible for saving many) Those who are behead for refusing the mark of the beast and for refusing to worship his statue.

 Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:  


 Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?  


 Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.  

 I have a couple of questions for you my friend...

 Is Jesus Christ God? and which Bible are you useing...KJV? NIV? or NWT?

[Evangelist]

Don't you know partial rapture solves the problem!!

Don't you know that a partial rapture creates another problem??

It creates the problem of creating a dichotomy, two classes of Christian believers. One class (the ones taken) are saved. The other class (the ones not taken) are only half-saved.

Please explain how that can be (according to the Word). Doesn't God say that if you are saved you are "saved to the UTTERMOST", meaning completely?

Saved or lost...there is NO middle ground. One or the other. X's and O's. P's & Q's. Redeemed or unredeemed. No such thing as a lay-away plan. Paid for IN FULL. Bought 'n paid for. Finished. Complete.

[Evangelist]

a traditional rapture creates two classes of Christian, too.

Really!? How's that?
Let's see....at the trump, the "dead in Christ" shall rise first.  What's that? Those who have die "IN CHRIST". Ok...they are in Christ. Then "we who are alive....". What we? We who are also in Christ? Or we who are only partway in Christ? Or we who have one foot in church, the other in the gutter? Or we who don't believe at all?  Hmmmm. I think Paul meant we who (are in Christ also) and are still alive, not being dead and in the grave.

So what are the two classes?

that's not what Jesus talked about.

You're right there....Jesus was talking about those who are His and those who aren't His....saved or lost....redeemed or unredeemed....sheep or goat. No half-way measures there. You're His or not. He's gotcha, or He hasn't. Taken (if His) and left (if not His). Black and white, no gray area there.

there will be no rapture before the 2nd coming of our Lord !

Might be a debatable point. Please define for us when this 2nd coming occurs (in your opinion). Is it a coming in the air, or is it a coming on Mt. Zion with feet on the ground? Or is it a coming in the heart of the believer? That's a pretty blanket statement, and there do happen to be eleventy dozen or so definitions of "coming" floating around in the Christian world today, so please clarify.  Thanks.

[Christinme]

Rev. 3.10 says that those who are ready may escape along with Luke 21.36. Not all Christians will be ready at first rapture, and not all Christians will be called out of the church in Rev. 2 & 3 like those who receive a white stone or who sit on thrones, for these are those of the first resurrection, the "best" "out-of" resurrection from the conglomerate of parousia of  resurrection.

In order to commence the war in heaven the manchild overcomers in Christ must be born, that is first availed to be first raptured at first rapture at the start of parousia, that is, presence of Christ. The newly clothed resurrected and raptured at first rapture will eventually with Michael cast Satan out of heaven as the falling start at Rev. 9.1. Praise God. Who are these first raptured? (see bottom link).

14.1-5 “THE FIRST FRUITS”

 

14.1        Is Mount Zion in heaven or on earth? It is the heavenly Jerusalem, not the earthly one, because (1) the Mount Zion on earth is at that time in the hands of the Gentiles (11.2); (2) it is clearly stated in 14.4 that “these were purchased from among men”, thus implying that they no longer stand on the earthly Mount Zion during that moment (3) by joining the last two clauses of 14.4 with Exodus 23.19 we learn that the first fruits are not left in the field since as soon as they are ripened they are to be brought to the house of God (see also Ex. 34.26), and since the 144,000 are the first fruits they cannot be left in the field-which speaks of the world (Matt. 13.38)-but are placed instead on the Mount Zion in heaven which is the New Jerusalem; (4) 14.3 says “they sing . . . before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the el-ders”-thus all these are in heaven and not on the earth; (5) the people referred to in 14.1-5 are the first fruits while those alluded to in 14.14-16 are the harvest, so if the harvesting is unto the air, can the first fruits be gathered elsewhere except to heaven? and (6) there is, moreover, no reason to suggest it as being the Mount Zion on earth since the Lord Jesus will come to the earth only by the time of chapter 19.

 

Who are the 144,000? The 144,000 cited in Revelation 7.4 and 144,000 spoken of here in 14.1 are two different classes of people, contrasted as follows:

 

       (1)   The people of 7.4 are the chosen among the children of Israel, while those of 14.1 are purchased from among men.              

            (2)   The seals received by them are not the same. The one spoken of in 7.2 is “the seal of the living God”, which is Old Testament terminology. The seal alluded to in 14.1 bears the name of the Lamb and the name of the Father, and such names are related to the church. Hence these people must come from the church.

            (3)   The people told about in 7.3 are called “the servants of our God”, but those in view in 14.1 are the children of God (this conclusion is deduced from the name of the Father).

            (4)   Throughout the entire book of Revelation the Lord calls God as Father each time. And He always says it in connection with the church (1.6, 2.27, 3.5, 3.21). The Lord never uses it in connection with Israel.

            (5)   The people spoken of in 14.1ff. are associated with the Lamb (standing with the Lamb, having the name of the Lamb, following the Lamb, and being the first fruits unto the Lamb). In chapter 7 the Lord is seen as another angel; and this, as we have seen, is a returning to His Old Testament position.

            (6)   The song they sing is described in 14.3 as a new song, whereas the song the people mentioned in 7.4 sing is but an old song.

            (7)   The people in view in 14.4 are virgins, but with Israel virginity is to be bewailed. (According to Ex. 23.26, Deut. 7.14, 1 Sam. 2.5, and Ps. 113.9, to bear children is considered a blessing while to be barren is deemed a curse. In Judges 11.38,39 the daughter of Jephthah is said to have bewailed her virginity for two months.)

            (   The articles preceding both of the 144,000 numbers cited in 14.1 and 7.4 are indefinite, and are therefore general and not specific. Thus these 144,000 numbers constitute two different classes.

 

14.1 The group of 144,000 here is a special class of people in the church; they are not all the people of the church. And the reasons for this conclusion are as follows:

 

(1) Since the 144,000 figure in 7.4 is taken literally, the number here should also be reckoned as literal.

(2) This group being the first fruits (14.4), it cannot be said that the entire church makes up the first fruits.

(3) There is no such fact that the people in the entire church keep their virginity.

(4) Prior to the arrival of the Great Tribulation (for it is before the voices of the three angels are heard, 14.6-11), these people are already raptured to Mount Zion.

(5) 14.5 tells of the exceptional features of these people, concerning which it cannot be said that all the born-again ones possess such characteristics.

 

Consequently, the 144,000 standing on Mount Zion are the best of the overcomers of the church; that is to say, this group of 144,000 is representative of the totality of the overcomers.

 Some people say that the rapture of the church cannot be divided because the body of Christ cannot be divided. It should be noted in reply, however, that the body is a figure of speech which signifies one life, If the body is taken literally, then there is already division today because the Lord is now in heaven, Paul has already died, we remain living on earth, and some believers are yet to be born.

[InHimITrust]

Come together pre+post

 The Witnesses keep telling anyone who will listen that they are the Jews, and at one time they were convinced that they were the 144,000 from Revelations and once their numbers reached the 144,000 the end of the world would be upon us all. Trouble was that when their numbers actually reached the 144,000 the world didn't end. Then they actually bi-passed the number. They quickly received (new light) and now they tell anyone who will listen that within the J.W. ranks are a "special" 144,000 who will actually reside in Heaven with God at the end of days, and their "lesser" congregation will spend eternity, not in Heaven with God, but rather, in Paradise on earth.

 The truth of the matter is that the 144,000 spoken of in Revelation are actually real 100% bonafide Jews. Not make believe, or "spiritual" wannabee Jews.

Bronzesnake

100% bonafide "jews"? There are 12 tribes listed in revelation, which were hebrews. The only ones called Jews were of the 2 southern tribes of Judah. The 2 beasts represent the 2 nations of the House of Israel out of Egypt after the split of Solomon: the House of Judah(2 southern tribes) and the House of Israel (10 northern scattered tribes). The 10 horns of the beast of the sea represent the 10 northern tribes(rome), and the beast of the earth with 2 horns represent the 2 tribes of Judah(Jerusalem). This has nothing to do with "futuristic beasts".
    The true jew is the ones that believe in Jesus Christ, as the 144000(figurative number) are the ones that were sealed and saved during the 3 and half years of roman invasion in pre 70ad. The siege of Jerusalem lasted only about 6 months, but none of the ones that were believers in Christ were killed.
       This is the way I have seen it in revelation, which is the destruction of the "Harlot/woman" by the beast she was laying in bed with, Rome.

[Christinme]

author=Bronzesnake
    The true jew is the ones that believe in Jesus Christ, as the 144000(figurative number) are the ones that were sealed and saved during the 3 and half years of roman invasion in pre 70ad. The siege of Jerusalem lasted only about 6 months, but none of the ones that were believers in Christ were killed.
       This is the way I have seen it in revelation, which is the destruction of the "Harlot/woman" by the beast she was laying in bed with, Rome.

Just as Genesis spoke of the eternity past, Revelation addresses eternity future. With the book of Revelation written in 95 AD it is talking about the future, events not yet happened in addition to the church age of the past 20 centuries, not a mear history book but telling us what is to come for our spiritual benefit and for the world.

That is why you don't judaize Christianity for then only learned historians would be saved, you would be blunting the solemn warning at the end of this age so you can live evilly, and having no faith that Jesus Christ can return to reign in Person for a 1000 years is also deadness of the spirit taking away reward for overcoming in Christ so that you can remain soulical. God's way is in the spirit.

The beasts are two, a false prophet and the Antichrist who have not yet come. The 144,000 in Rev. 14 are virgins close to Christ who are Christians. The 144,000 in Rev. 7.1-8 are not Christians but a preserved remnant of the Jewish nation God promises. In Matt. 24.13,14 the Jews testify to the world of the sovereign God by their desparate actions.

This should not be construed as the sealed 144,000. The sealed 144,000 has direct meaning in Rev. 7.1-8, not the 144,000 of Rev. 14.1, that a preserved remnant of the Jewish nation will be saved. The reason this is so hard for so many to understand is because most are legalists and don't let their spirit be reached by depth of God's meaning.

Praise God!

[InHimITrust]

author=Bronzesnake
    The true jew is the ones that believe in Jesus Christ, as the 144000(figurative number) are the ones that were sealed and saved during the 3 and half years of roman invasion in pre 70ad. The siege of Jerusalem lasted only about 6 months, but none of the ones that were believers in Christ were killed.
       This is the way I have seen it in revelation, which is the destruction of the "Harlot/woman" by the beast she was laying in bed with, Rome.

Just as Genesis spoke of the eternity past, Revelation addresses eternity future. With the book of Revelation written in 95 AD it is talking about the future, events not yet happened in addition to the church age of the past 20 centuries, not a mear history book but telling us what is to come for our spiritual benefit and for the world.

That is why you don't judaize Christianity for then only learned historians would be saved, you would be blunting the solemn warning at the end of this age so you can live evilly, and having no faith that Jesus Christ can return to reign in Person for a 1000 years is also deadness of the spirit taking away reward for overcoming in Christ so that you can remain soulical. God's way is in the spirit.

The beasts are two, a false prophet and the Antichrist who have not yet come. The 144,000 in Rev. 14 are virgins close to Christ who are Christians. The 144,000 in Rev. 7.1-8 are not Christians but a preserved remnant of the Jewish nation God promises. In Matt. 24.13,14 the Jews testify to the world of the sovereign God by their desparate actions.

This should not be construed as the sealed 144,000. The sealed 144,000 has direct meaning in Rev. 7.1-8, not the 144,000 of Rev. 14.1, that a preserved remnant of the Jewish nation will be saved. The reason this is so hard for so many to understand is because most are legalists and don't let their spirit be reached by depth of God's meaning.

Praise God!

http://christianity.3.forumer.com/

  Hmmm. Ok. It is a jewish nation being destroyed, as prophecied by God and Christ.
     But if your spirit has led you to believe different thatn mine (and not because of futuristic prophecy fiction books around), then I guess I won't argue with you on it. My interpretation is biblical with half of the bible scriptures to back mine up.
   It is a jewish city being destroyed by a gentile army being willed by God Himself to attack the Harlot/Jerusalem. If you can't see that, then I guess I will have to stick with it on my own and a few others that have also seen it like this. The bible is complete for me and is how I read it, otherwise it would be unbelievable for me. But I let God help me with interpreting it, so don't try and tell my I am wrong and I won't tell you yours is wrong. I have already described what the book of Jonah represented and revelation represented, so I can't add anything else.
     God bless you and yours.

[Bronzesnake]

christinme...
 You ascribed the following quote to me. I did not say that.
 It is a quote from inhimitrust.

 

author=Bronzesnake
    The true jew is the ones that believe in Jesus Christ, as the 144000(figurative number) are the ones that were sealed and saved during the 3 and half years of roman invasion in pre 70ad. The siege of Jerusalem lasted only about 6 months, but none of the ones that were believers in Christ were killed.
      This is the way I have seen it in revelation, which is the destruction of the "Harlot/woman" by the beast she was laying in bed with, Rome

 I believe what God says about the 144,000.