True teachings vs. false teachings

[sojourner]

Heidi,

All, I can say is that you want to see only what you see.
I Cor 4:15-17. Again, you are looking for  a very specific directive which in most cases is impossible.  

It is not the case of Paul interpreting, he was using the inference and pointing to himself as a role model, as someone to imulate, a teacher, thus their Father. Yes, Christ is the teacher, par excellant, but He bestowed that responsibility to the Church and the Bishop who is the ecclessiastical leader
.
In Cor 1:10, it is not the word 'brother' that we are referring to, but the word' father'. Here Paul uses it exactly as we use it for our early Church Fathers. There were our teachers then and we have teachers now.
Then you say that Paul is the father of the Gospel. Wow, really! You might be confusing him with Luther or Calvin, et el.

At this point the discussion is not what Jesus said or even meant from my vantage point. I and a couple of others are trying to show that the statement and your interpretation could not possible be correct because there are several violations directly in scripture.
It is for you to show that they are not in violation of Jesus' words.  By your understanding, that would should not ever appear anywhere in Scripture except as a substitute for the word, Jesus, Christ, etc.
What say ye?

Another thing which you seem to keep complaining about does not even apply to me. I have explained this to you several times that I am Orthodox, I have clearly, I thought, told you that I even agree with you on this score regarding the Pope.
Do you know the differences between the Roman Catholics and the Orthodox Catholics?

[Heidi]

I do not see that my interpretation of Jesus's words as violating scripture at all! Again, Paul never told us to call him father, did he? He is NOT our Holy Father, nor did he EVER claim to be. He called himself the father of the gospel which he is. That is NOT the same as our Holy Father. I already know that you were looking at the term "forefathers"  in the passage you cited and I answered than on another thread. I also focused on the term BROTHERS, because you ignored that part. I said that of course Abraham and others were our forfathers! Paul was referring to worldly ancestry and teachers before Christ. Jesus also said in Luke; 161:16, "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. SINCE that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached." Jesus is saying that when the Holy Spirit enters us, we now have a NEW Father becuase we are now born of the SPIRIT.  Do you even UNDERSTAND what that means at all? Do you KNOW who your Holy Father is? Do you care? Or do you want to share the title of your Holy Father with an earthly being?  It is you who does not understand what Jesus means. YOU HAVE NEVER EVEN TRIED TO EXPLAIN WHAT HE MEANS. None of you has! All you have done is tried to justify why we should disobey Christ. If you don't think it is disobeying Him, then why don't you explain what He means? The reason you can't explain Jesus's words is that they incriminate you. All the church has to do is KNOW AND BELIEVE CHRIST'S WORDS. But no, they know BETTER than He does what is right and wrong. Christianity could be so simple if people would just believe Jesus. But our human pride gets in the way. We want to glorify ourselves, think we know better and that brings corruption into the church. The latter reason is SPECIFICALLY why he warned us not to call anyone 'father' because he knows our tendency to glorify ourselves.

Since none of you catholic defenders has ever been able to explain that passage, I will quote it in full:Matthew, 23:5-12, "Everything they do is for men to see. They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; they love to take the place of honor and the most important seatsw in he synogogue; they love to be greeted in the market places and to have men call them 'Rabbi'. But you are not to be called 'Rabbi' for you have only one Master and you are ALL brothers. And do not call anyone on earth 'father', for you have one Father and He is in heaven. Nor are you to be called 'teacher' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled and whoever humbles himself will be exalted." When you understand those words, only THEN will you be able to understand the passages you quoted. That passage does NOT describe Paul in the least! But it DOES describe the catholic church.  They parade around in robes showing that they are holy. They do not pray in private as Jesus told us to do. They make a big deal out of Lent instead of trying to disguise their fasting. They call each other Father, Holy Father, Bishops, and Cardinals instead of brothers.  In fact, they disobey almost every single one of Christ's teachings. The "honor him with their lips but their hearts are far from me." They honor the worldly temply instead of the temple inside us which is Christ. They exalt Mary when there is NO scripture from Jesus telling us to do so. In fact, when someone in the crowd yelled, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you", Jesus replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it." But no, the catholic church knows better than Jesus. In Mark, 3:31-33, when told that his brothers and mother were there, Jesus replied; "Who are my mother and brothers?" Then he looked at those seated in the circle around him and said,;"Here are my mother and mt brothers! Whoever does God's will is my brother and my sister and my mother." But no, again the catholic church disagrees with him. He is wrong! Mary is more blessed than Jesus syas she is. But who is Jesus? he's not their Holy father the pope is! And he knows best.
     If you're going to chastize me for believing Jesus's words, then be my guest. He said; "Blessed are you when you are persecuted for my sake." I have a clear conscience. if you want to believe the pope is infallible and knows better than Jesus, then you are free to do so. But since you have 2 Holy Fathers, don't blame me if I'm confused about whom you worship. That's why Jesus warned us not to call anyone on earth Holy Father. If you give the same title to a person that you give God, then not only are you dishonoring God, but you are putting them on the same level. There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to do that. None...unless of course, you do see the pope as God.  

[sojourner]

Heidi,

You just spent a whole response that has almost nothing to do with me. Twice in my post immediately preceding yours I told you I was Orthodox. I told you that earlier and then also told you we do not have a Pope. Thus you wasted a lot of words.

What does apply, is that you are denying what you have stated earlier.
Clearly, that was that we cannot call anyone father since only God is our father.
That was your interpretation of the Matt 23 text. All of my other texts showed that, IF THAT IS TRUE, then Paul and others were in violation of that command. Either they are in violation which you have not explained, or your interpretation is not correct.
Which is it, and stay on point in your answer. Don't give me a harangue.

[Heidi]

You have shown that you obviously do not only understand what i was saying but you don't understand Jesus's words either. Do you say "Father Paul"? Did Paul ASK us to CALL him Father? yes or no? Jesus is referring to a TITLE, sojourner, not a DESCRIPTION of an ancestry or founder. That's what He means by CALLING someone 'father' or Rabbi. It is a title. which indicates subservience in a holy way. That is why you completely misunderstand Jesus's words, otherwise you're saying that He and Paul are contradicting each other, which they aren't at all. Paul never asked us to call Him 'Father" and Jesus told us NOT to call anyone on earth 'father'. They are in complete agreement with each other.

[sojourner]

Heidi,

Paul never asked us to call Him 'Father" and Jesus told us NOT to call anyone on earth 'father'. They are in complete agreement with each other.

Heidi, I really don't know how to say it. But, the statement above in contradicted in Scripture. It is not a matter of Paul requesting that we call him 'father'.

It is rather, what Jesus meant, which is opposed to the latter part of your statment. You are making a blanket statment for your understanding that it means,  to not call ANYONE on earth Father.

Now, if that be so, then the texts that I showed you earlier are in contradiction, not with me or my understanding of them but with your statement.

In my most recent post prior to this, I asked you to reconcile this conflict in what you are saying and what appears elsewhere in Scripture.  You may have a good argument, but I have not heard it as yet. It is probably  one I could not agree with, but that is not the point.
Give it a try.

[Heidi]

So do you think Jesus is lying by telling us not to call anyone 'father'? Because by your interpretation, Paul disagrees with Jesus. In my interpretation, He does not.

[sojourner]

Heidi,

Hopefully I can get you to see what I am trying to do here.
It is not either my understanding or interpretation.

It is your interpretation that is in conflict. You say it does not conflict, but you have not shown why or how.
I want to know why you don't see a conflict. Simply telling me that there is none, doesn't cut it.

Let me put it another way. Based on your interpretation, a blanket statment on the word, father, you cannot call your natural father, father without being in conflict with your understanding. That is what you need to explain.

[Heidi]

I explain this in the thread; "Knowing Christ's Words."

[Gracey]

Perhaps this will help (or perhaps not):

A definition of 'father' from Easton's Bible Dictionery

A name applied
(1.) to any ancestor (Deu_1:11; 1Ki_15:11; Mat_3:9; Mat_23:30, etc.); and
(2.) as a title of respect to a chief, ruler, or elder, etc. (Jdg_17:10; Jdg_18:19; 1Sa_10:12; 2Ki_2:12; Mat_23:9, etc.).
(3.) The author or beginner of anything is also so called; e.g., Jabal and Jubal (Gen_4:20, Gen_4:21; compare Job_38:28).
Applied to God (Exo_4:22; Deu_32:6; 2Sa_7:14; Psa_89:27, Psa_89:28, etc.).
(1.) As denoting his covenant relation to the Jews (Jer_31:9; Isa_63:16; Isa_64:8; Joh_8:41, etc.).
(2.) Believers are called God's “sons” (Joh_1:12; Rom_8:16; Mat_6:4, Mat_6:8, Mat_6:15, Mat_6:18; Mat_10:20, Mat_10:29). They also call him “Father” (Rom_1:7; 1Co_1:3; 2Co_1:2; Gal_1:4)

It appears from some of these arguments I am reading that some of that confusion is with the definitions of the word Father - in other words, whether it's being used as a descriptive word, or as a Title.

I am not going to wade into this one, but maybe defining the "definition" of the word will be of some help.

Gracey
 

[Heidi]

The only meaning that does not contradict either Jesus's or Paul's words is that Jesus was talking about a title. Paul descibes specific fathers, i.e. forfathers, the father of the gospel, etc. just like one would describe a doctor. That is completely DIFFERENT than honoring someone with a title, especially a Holy Title. That is what Jesus is warning us against. His WHOLE passage elaborated on that meaning and only that meaning; calling attention to one's holiness, which is the sin of pride. The best way not to have ANY confusion about the motive of the person carrying a title is to simply not have any titles, which Jesus instructs us to do. Not only does the catholic church ignore this, it deliberately USES the name, 'father' and even adds the term "Holy" to it. This is nothing but a slap in the face of Jesus. Even if Jesus had never said that, I, in my heart could NEVER call ANYONE my Holy Father because i do not SEE them as my Holy Father! The allegiance in my heart is to Christ alone who glorifies our Father in Heaven.

[Gracey]

For the most part, I agree with not giving anyone the title "Father or Holy Father", but we use an awful lot of titles in this world, Heidi.

The best way not to have ANY confusion about the motive of the person carrying a title is to simply not have any titles

Now, it is quite possible you don't do any of this:

- address someone as Mr, Mrs, Miss or Ms
- address anyone as Dr.
- address anyone as Senator, President, Vice President, etc.
- address anyone as Pastor or Professor

There are lots of others I won't list. These are titles used in every day life. Using certain titles is way of offering respect to someone. Some titles are certainly quite acceptable, even to Jesus. There's a difference between being humble and false humility. Christ asks us not to seek titles of high standing for the sake of appearing great in men's eyes; being offered respect by someone is not the same as seeking it to put ourselves above others. Beinging on the receiving end of someones respect is a marvelous opportunity to give God the glory.

We reap what we sow.

Gracey

[Heidi]

Gracey, do you know what Jesus means by not calling anyone on earth 'father'?

[Nickolai]

Gracey, do you know what Jesus means by not calling anyone on earth 'father'?

I'm pretty sure Gracey does know what he means.  But since it conflicts with your PERSONAL interpretation it must be wrong.  Please enlighten me oh wise Heidi  

[Gracey]

Gracey, do you know what Jesus means by not calling anyone on earth 'father'?

Christ's referrences throughout the bible have to do with worship and not with a title. There is only one God.

Not calling someone father means to not worship anyone but God; He alone is Holy. He also tells us not to seek status by calling attention to ourselves, like the Pharisees.

My earthly father was my father (in terms of the fact that he was my sire); God is my Heavenly Father as He is the creator, the author and the perfector; the issuer of all life, not just mine.

Since my dad died last year, I call no one on earth father, except God whom I tend to refer to as "Father God" or "Father in Heaven".  

But, even the bible refers to satan as a father - for instance he is called the father of lies.

Also - rather than answer the question I posed to you, you asked me one. Since I've obliged you with an answer, would you mind doing me the same kidness? Do you never address anyone by their title?

Gracey

[Heidi]

And how is using the title of Holy Father, which everyone in the world attributes to the pope, not calling attention to one's holiness? How is parading around in black robes with white collars not calling attention to one's holiness? How is public fasting not calling attention to one's holiness? How is living in a luxurious palace fit for kings, adorned with gold and bronze statues, (some of them pagan gods like apollo),wearing bright red robes, carrying gold studded candleholders, worshiping on a gold studded altar not calling attention to one's holiness? it would be good for you, Gracey, to read the OT and see how God looks upon these things. You don't have to believe Christ. You need to soak up scripture in order to see what our real HOLY FATHER tells us to do.

Satan is the father of lies. Those who call him "Father" see him as THEIR father, which was jesus's whole point!. Whomever we call "Father" much less "Holy Father" IS whom we worship!