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Theology => Debate => Topic started by: Heidi on May 05, 2004, 01:14:44 PM



Title: True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 05, 2004, 01:14:44 PM
Any teaching that brings us back to Jesus as the only way to God is from the Holy Spirit. Any teaching that makes us glorify men as more powerful than God is from the devil. The sin of pride is what makes us glorify ourselves. The fruit of humility comes from glorifying God. Jesus was the most humble man in the world. He also had more power than any man whoever lived. But He gave credit to God for His power, not to Himself. He is the example Christians need to follow, not the devil.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: His_child on May 05, 2004, 02:31:11 PM
Are you on a mission to see how many threads you can start on the same topic? Or do you just start another thread instead of answering questions posed to you in the first thread?


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 05, 2004, 04:21:00 PM
I think I have explained in detail where I am coming from. What matters most is if people are saved or not. Many people still don't understand what that means. Most people still subscribe to false teaching thinking it is the truth. Thus, the distinction can't be stressed enough.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Tibby on May 05, 2004, 04:36:16 PM
The only false teachings are the teaching about the Catholic church you have heard, Heidi ::) We have enough anti-Catholic topics going. It is to hard ot keep track of them all as it is!


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 05, 2004, 07:03:08 PM
I wasn't singling out the catholic church, Tibby. Any church or any leader that preaches to glorify him is a cult. We are bombarded with false teachings in this world and if people truly want to go to heaven and not be deceived, we need to be able to recognize them. You don't have to want to discern true teaching from false teaching. There might be some who do.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Rich on May 05, 2004, 08:42:03 PM
Well Heidi we can finally agree on one thing, we are certainly
bombarded w/ false teachings, sadly most of it is coming from you.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 05, 2004, 11:00:26 PM
Having no other Gods before our Father in heaven is false teaching? Boy are you out in left field, Rich. That's what all my posts have been about. I can see why you're worried about your salvation! You need to read the bible from start to finish, particularly Christ's words, since you disagree with so many of them. In them, you will find out that Jesus knows a lot more than you do. Apparently the catholic doctrine hasn't gotten you past the first commandment.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: BUTCHA on May 05, 2004, 11:03:37 PM
Any teaching that brings us back to Jesus as the only way to God is from the Holy Spirit. Any teaching that makes us glorify men as more powerful than God is from the devil. The sin of pride is what makes us glorify ourselves. The fruit of humility comes from glorifying God. Jesus was the most humble man in the world. He also had more power than any man whoever lived. But He gave credit to God for His power, not to Himself. He is the example Christians need to follow, not the devil.
amen sister :D


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: His_child on May 05, 2004, 11:13:21 PM
We have enough anti-Catholic topics going. It is to hard ot keep track of them all as it is!

I hear you!
It's made me consider visiting the other sites I visit more than I visit here.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 05, 2004, 11:15:32 PM
Then start another topic, justme.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: His_child on May 05, 2004, 11:17:55 PM
Then start another topic, justme.

People have started other topics, but they get pushed down by the multiple threads on just one topic.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 05, 2004, 11:22:57 PM
When I get sick of topics, I don't post on them. You always have that choice.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: ebia on May 05, 2004, 11:51:18 PM
When I get sick of topics, I don't post on them.
No, you just start another thread on precisely the same subject with precisely the same misinformation as the last one.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Ben5 on May 06, 2004, 12:11:58 AM

1 Tim 3:15 - The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth.  

If you seek true teachings, seek the one, true Church of Christ.  


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Tibby on May 06, 2004, 01:06:20 AM
We have enough anti-Catholic topics going. It is to hard ot keep track of them all as it is!

I hear you!
It's made me consider visiting the other sites I visit more than I visit here.

Way ahead of you.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: _Christopher_ on May 06, 2004, 04:08:10 AM
Having no other Gods before our Father in heaven is false teaching? Boy are you out in left field, Rich. That's what all my posts have been about. I can see why you're worried about your salvation! You need to read the bible from start to finish, particularly Christ's words, since you disagree with so many of them. In them, you will find out that Jesus knows a lot more than you do. Apparently the catholic doctrine hasn't gotten you past the first commandment.

Let me break it down for you one more time.

Catholics do not worship anyone but God.

Read that again, slowly.  

Then if you feel the need to start yet another thread about how your own private interpretation of the Bible and the Church's teachings are correct, feel free.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 06, 2004, 09:03:01 AM
David Koresh said that he worshiped no one but God either. Our actions are what shows who we worship in our hearts, not our words. I know of NO born again Christian who calls the pope Holy Father. A born again Christian is born of the spirit and his new Father is God. Until you are born of the spirit, you will continue to only know your earthly fathers. The ones whose allegiance is to the pope have no reverence for their only Father in heaven. They only pay Him lip service. Otherwise, they would object to calling anyone in the world Holy Father just as Jesus objected to it. Again, you don't have to believe Jesus, Christopher. I do. You can put your faith in the pope.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Rich on May 06, 2004, 09:05:34 AM
Yea, i'm out in left field, wrong again, i'm a first baseman.
And what's up w/ David Koresh all the time?


Title: True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Brother Love on May 06, 2004, 09:07:27 AM
David Koresh said that he worshiped no one but God either. Our actions are what shows who we worship in our hearts, not our words. I know of NO born again Christian who calls the pope Holy Father. A born again Christian is born of the spirit and his new Father is God. Until you are born of the spirit, you will continue to only know your earthly fathers. The ones whose allegiance is to the pope have no reverence for their only Father in heaven. They only pay Him lip service. Otherwise, they would object to calling anyone in the world Holy Father just as Jesus objected to it. Again, you don't have to believe Jesus, Christopher. I do. You can put your faith in the pope.

Good Preaching Heidi, Amen

Brother Love :)


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 06, 2004, 09:45:09 AM
Thanks, Brother love. It's sure easy to spot the born again Christians from the "professed" Christians on this board. The professed Christians are loyal to the pope. The born again Christians are loyal to God. It's too bad one has to make a choice. But when someone takes the name that Jesus said is reserved for only ONE, then one does indeed have to make a choice.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Gracey on May 06, 2004, 09:56:44 AM
Quote
It's too bad one has to make a choice.

What choice are you making here? In another thread I distinctly recall you saying that we have no freedom of choice. Doesn't that mean that God orders everything you do? That you have no choice?

I am not trying to "jump" on you, I'm just trying to understand you. You tell us in other posts that God "controls" the universe, and therefore everything; now you say there is a choice?

Or, are you saying that it is God who controls whether or not we are "saved" by Christ, but He doesn't actually control everything we do?

It's difficult to understand, sometimes, what a person means without being able to see... when you are speaking face to face with someone it's much easier to tell (ie. body language, etc.)

Blessings
Gracey


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 06, 2004, 10:22:35 AM
The holy Spirit is what allows me to see the truth. Jesus said; "And I will send you the Counselor who will lead you into all truth." It is the Holy Spirit that enables us to believe Christ's words, not my own sinful nature. I will stand against any teaching that contradicts Jesus's words. The born again Christians are the only ones who can see through false teachings because they are ruled by the Holy Spirit, not the devil.

I will explain what i mean by no free will through the anology of a parent. A parent can create an environment where her childred feel free to make "choices." The child thinks he is making his decisions when, in reality, it is the parent who is creating an environment for him to do so. That is how God treats us. He creates circumstances in our lives so that we will DESIRE Him. We think we are making the choice when in reality, we are selecting our least stressful option. God knows that we have to be able to understand why we need Him all by ourselves. I cannot tell my child why speeding is wrong, for example. He has to find out by himself. I can change his least stressful option any time i want. i can ground him, not ground him, take away privileges, etc. He will respond according to his least stressful option, all the while believing it is his free choice. God is allowing us the consequences of our behavior so that we feel free to want Him or reject Him. This is the ONLY way we can come to Him without feeling forced to. Thus, the responsibility lies with us. But in reality, God is ushering the circumstances in our lives. This interpretation combines allowing someone to take responsibility for his actions when in reality, God is in control the whole time! It also makes sense with all of scripture which seems to contradict itself about free will, but truly does not.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Rich on May 06, 2004, 11:12:49 AM
We stand against teachings that contradict Christs words as well. That's why there have been councils over the years, to
refute false teachings and clear up any other misinformed ideas. We're also guided by the Holy Spirit, Jesus promised the gates of hell would not prevail against us, and we believe Him.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Gracey on May 06, 2004, 11:16:11 AM
Quote
The child thinks he is making his decisions when, in reality, it is the parent who is creating an environment for him to do so.

This can only be partially true - when the child is young. What happens when the child grows up and becomes an adult?

Heidi, I am always happy to see someone studying and learning God's word, but you  have a tendency to put your own interpretation on things which certainly don't match what I have learned - learned through the Spirit - what I know to be truth.

God is gracious and merciful to us. Someday all of these differing opinions will fall away and we will stand in glory with HIM!

Gracey


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Reba on May 06, 2004, 11:30:06 AM
I see many complaints about Heidi but you all respond to her posts...


There are enough false teachers to cover all the denomination i have seen.  I have never seen one denomo that has  truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth...

My nephew has gone from AofG to Catholic he says in no way does he worship anyone but God .... My friend was Catholic for 49 years , catholic schools and all, was considering being a 'sister'   she tells me she worshiped Mary... go figure .....

I have seen prods chase Benny Hinn around the country , in my view BH is a idol to many as was Kathren Koolmen (sp), Oral Roberts, AA Allen, Calvin, Billy Graham etc...
 

Mother Treasa worked side by side with Mark Bontain (sp)  2 wonderfull Christlike persons, selfless, giving, caring, for no personal gain, one a Catholic one a Prodistant.

Prods chase after this book and that book... this sign 'from' God that sign 'from' God. Many of us know more of what some modern day author has written than what the scriptures say yet we condem the writings of a nother.....

As a prod myself i believe we have enough to do in cleaning our own 'glass house' before we throw rocks..





Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Gracey on May 06, 2004, 11:40:38 AM
Quote
There are enough false teachers to cover all the denomination i have seen.  I have never seen one denomo that has  truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth..

How true.

The walk from christianity to eternity is a never ending learning experience, and if we don't allow ourselves to learn and grow and change, we will have a "hard row to hoe".  The willingness to learn and change with Christ.....

what we all need, I guess.

blessings
Gracey


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 06, 2004, 12:03:50 PM
Gracey, we ALL put our own interpretations into Christ's words. That's why i initiated the thread about true vs. false teachings. When our interpretations agree with ALL of scripture and not just some of it, then they are true. My interpretation of free will incorporates BOTH the notions  that God is in control, AND that He allows us the belief that we have free will. Both the notion of free will and the notion that we don't have free will are in the bible. Most of the gospel of John talks about God being in control of everything, including Christ's power. In Romans, Paul talks about God's sovereign choice. God hardens whom He wants and has mercy on whom He wants. But there are also passages that talk about our accountability in believing Him. My interpretation explains how both can exist, yet how God is still the master of the universe.

When a child is older, he is still responding out of his least stressful option. Many people wonder why a battered woman stays with her husband. But she cannot leave her husband until her fear of her husband is stronger than ther fear of leaving him. She may desperately want to leave her husband but is ruled by fear. "We are slaves to whatever masters us." Nevertheless, we are accountable for our actions and it has to be that way! Paradoxically, once she realizes she is accountable, then that might give her the courage to leave her husband. But she HAD to hear that from someone! Therefore, she is dependant on her environment and the information she receives as the way to health. It's the same as in Nazi Germany. Why would any child who grew up in that era believe that Jews were good people? Where did he get that information? He cannot freely choose to love them if all the information he'd ever received was that they were not loveable.

This brings up Jesus's statement; "If I had not spoken to you you would not be guilty of sin. But now you are without excuse." We are all dependant on the circumstances around us, the info we have or don't have, etc. to make our "decisions." Our decisions will only be made out of who rules us, God or Satan. Once a person hears Jesus's words, he then is accountable for his 'decision" to go toward or away from Christ. This makes us all guilty. The ones take this to heart will seek Christ. The ones who do not care, will stay with Satan. God never denies a seeking heart. The ones with hardened hearts could care less about their salvation or they would seek God. Only God knows who is capable of understanding His word and who isn't. Therefore, His choice of hardening whom He wants to harden and having mercy upon whom He wants to have mercy is made from His knowledge of what each of us can handle. His will is much stronger than ours.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Gracey on May 06, 2004, 12:53:09 PM
Well, Heidi, I'm afraid this is one area (free will) where we are not going to come to agreement. But that's quite all right. If nothing else, it has made me (at least) examine what I believe and where that belief came from....and to seek the understanding I needed from Him!

Many blessings
Gracey
 :)


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Reba on May 06, 2004, 01:31:59 PM
We stand against teachings that contradict Christs words as well. That's why there have been councils over the years, to
refute false teachings and clear up any other misinformed ideas. We're also guided by the Holy Spirit, Jesus promised the gates of hell would not prevail against us, and we believe Him.


Rich, when you say us do you mean the RCC and then does that imply the gate of hell will prevail against everyone who is not RCC?


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Tibby on May 06, 2004, 01:36:52 PM
We stand against teachings that contradict Christs words as well. That's why there have been councils over the years, to
refute false teachings and clear up any other misinformed ideas. We're also guided by the Holy Spirit, Jesus promised the gates of hell would not prevail against us, and we believe Him.


Rich, when you say us do you mean the RCC and then does that imply the gate of hell will prevail against everyone who is not RCC?

Us is the Church, all Christians.  ::)


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Reba on May 06, 2004, 02:01:23 PM
We stand against teachings that contradict Christs words as well. That's why there have been councils over the years, to
refute false teachings and clear up any other misinformed ideas. We're also guided by the Holy Spirit, Jesus promised the gates of hell would not prevail against us, and we believe Him.


Rich, when you say us do you mean the RCC and then does that imply the gate of hell will prevail against everyone who is not RCC?

Us is the Church, all Christians.  ::)
 Tibby who are  'all Christians'?  

I am not sure if you are being silly.... just having some fun.... Maybe because you know what is in your head and heart you do not see how vague your reply is. Any way are your Rich?  :P   Hm Rich the poster not rich as in $$$$$$$ your to young to be rich in $$$$$$$ and a student  right? or are you left as in liberal?  SHEESH   posting is complacated....


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Allinall on May 06, 2004, 05:24:53 PM
David Koresh said that he worshiped no one but God either. Our actions are what shows who we worship in our hearts, not our words. I know of NO born again Christian who calls the pope Holy Father. A born again Christian is born of the spirit and his new Father is God. Until you are born of the spirit, you will continue to only know your earthly fathers. The ones whose allegiance is to the pope have no reverence for their only Father in heaven. They only pay Him lip service. Otherwise, they would object to calling anyone in the world Holy Father just as Jesus objected to it. Again, you don't have to believe Jesus, Christopher. I do. You can put your faith in the pope.

Good Preaching Heidi, Amen

Brother Love :)

Speaking of false teachings...


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Allinall on May 06, 2004, 05:29:15 PM
Ya know, the gig before was the gay bashing.  Granted, homosexuality is sin and God is agin it.  But if it isn't one thing that draws us out to stamp a big "I AM AGAINST ________"[/b], it's another.  So.  What are you people who like to point out the speck in your brothers eye while missing the Sequoia stickin' out of your head actually for?


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Tibby on May 06, 2004, 05:33:46 PM
We stand against teachings that contradict Christs words as well. That's why there have been councils over the years, to
refute false teachings and clear up any other misinformed ideas. We're also guided by the Holy Spirit, Jesus promised the gates of hell would not prevail against us, and we believe Him.


Rich, when you say us do you mean the RCC and then does that imply the gate of hell will prevail against everyone who is not RCC?

Us is the Church, all Christians.  ::)
 Tibby who are  'all Christians'?  

Anyone who can say the Apostle's Creed honestly.


Quote
I am not sure if you are being silly.... just having some fun.... Maybe because you know what is in your head and heart you do not see how vague your reply is. Any way are your Rich?  :P   Hm Rich the poster not rich as in $$$$$$$ your to young to be rich in $$$$$$$ and a student  right? or are you left as in liberal?  SHEESH   posting is complacated....

I answer for Rich when he is away. ;D


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Rich on May 06, 2004, 08:36:14 PM
Thank you Tibby, that darn work gets in the way of this important stuff sometimes.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Reba on May 06, 2004, 11:17:37 PM
1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:

2. And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:

3. Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:

4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:

5. The third day he rose again from the dead:

6. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:

7. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:

8. I believe in the Holy Ghost:

9. I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:  

10. The forgiveness of sins:

1l. The resurrection of the body:

12. And the life everlasting. Amen.



This one  Rich/Tibby?



Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: His_child on May 06, 2004, 11:20:23 PM
Thank you Tibby, that darn work gets in the way of this important stuff sometimes.

Don't ya just hate it when that happens?  ;D


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Tibby on May 07, 2004, 01:38:24 AM
Yeah, Work bites.

Well, you see Reba, in about 300 AD, Igneous of Antioch coined the Term “Catholic” With literally means “Universal.” But when you sink into the connotative means, it is so much deeper. It means connected, in one accord, united, as one. The Term “Catholic Church” was used before “Christianity” was. You see, in the beginning of the Church, it was one church. Not “Orthodox” or “Catholic” or “Baptists.” We were all the Orthodox, Catholic, and Baptized Church. If you believe that, no matter if you are Catholic, Baptist, or Episcopalian, you are still part of one church, if you believe that, then you qualify for line 9.

If that isn't good enough, then consider this, the Catecism basicly says you are still part of the Church, you just don't realize it yet. ;D So, either way you look at it, you are Catholic ;D


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: _Christopher_ on May 07, 2004, 05:01:01 AM
David Koresh said that he worshiped no one but God either. Our actions are what shows who we worship in our hearts, not our words. I know of NO born again Christian who calls the pope Holy Father. A born again Christian is born of the spirit and his new Father is God. Until you are born of the spirit, you will continue to only know your earthly fathers. The ones whose allegiance is to the pope have no reverence for their only Father in heaven. They only pay Him lip service. Otherwise, they would object to calling anyone in the world Holy Father just as Jesus objected to it. Again, you don't have to believe Jesus, Christopher. I do. You can put your faith in the pope.

Interesting!  So the apostles were not "born again" christians either, since they called themselves "fathers" of their disciples!

Wow, the Gospel according to Heidi!  What was it that St Paul said about those that preach a different Gospel again?  Something about a curse?


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: _Christopher_ on May 07, 2004, 05:03:16 AM
Thanks, Brother love. It's sure easy to spot the born again Christians from the "professed" Christians on this board. The professed Christians are loyal to the pope. The born again Christians are loyal to God. It's too bad one has to make a choice. But when someone takes the name that Jesus said is reserved for only ONE, then one does indeed have to make a choice.

Its too bad you propose a false dichotomy.  Its too bad people don't listen to the Bible about obeying their appointed leaders in authority.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: ebia on May 07, 2004, 05:28:04 AM


Quote
Anyone who can say the Apostle's Creed honestly.
Apostles'  (I presume the apostrophy comes there) or the Nicene?   I believe our Orthodox friends don't use the Apostles' (although I don't know if they actually disagree with anything in it).  The only creed the whole church rubber stamped is the Nicene.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 07, 2004, 08:42:16 AM
Christopher, the disciples or apostles never asked US to call them "father."  When they used the word, 'father' they were referring to the word, 'founder' as in the founder of modern psychology, or the first one to spread the gospel as Paul did. The only founder of the church was Peter! Not the subsequent popes. So why do you think the later popes wanted to be called the Holy Father? They were not the founders of the church, Peter was! So what is their reason for this? Why are they our Holy Fathers? They are not the fathers of the church, so what kind of fathers are they? Why in the world do you think Jesus said that? For His health? Or don't you have a clue?


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Tibby on May 07, 2004, 09:49:44 AM


Quote
Anyone who can say the Apostle's Creed honestly.
Apostles'  (I presume the apostrophy comes there) or the Nicene?   I believe our Orthodox friends don't use the Apostles' (although I don't know if they actually disagree with anything in it).  The only creed the whole church rubber stamped is the Nicene.


I kind of hesitated to say they  Nicene because I’ve had some trouble with that one before. People just don’t seem to know it as well. Plus, the name. People hear “Apostle” they think biblical, but they hear “Nicene” they thing “extra-biblical” or even “Pagan.” Because of the fact that my church is on the Journey, as you know, I have gotten use to the Apostle’s creed, for protestant sake. Granted, the Nicene Creed would be better for a guild line of what is Christian (that is why it was made, after all) but it is just easier for people to swallow. We arn't debating with an Heretical Sects, so I don't think the extra lines will matter for now.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 07, 2004, 09:54:53 AM
Oh people know the Nicene creed well. They recite with their eyes and hearts closed. If you speak from your heart, Tibby, instead of by rote, then I will believe you. So far your heart is loyal to the pope instead of to Christ's words. Once Christ is in your heart, you will understand why Jesus said not to call anyone on earth 'father'.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Rich on May 07, 2004, 11:25:38 AM
Whew, Heidi, are you God? Because you sure seem to know whats in everybodys hearts and minds.
   So when i call my father, father, i'm really referring to the word founder, as in he is the founder of modern me? Wow i've sure been off on that one for awhile now.
       That dictionary might clear up some of your confusion if you would just open it up.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Allinall on May 07, 2004, 12:07:02 PM
Soooooo I take that to mean that all you're for is stating what you are against?  NOTE TO READERS:  Heidi.  This is primarily posted to you, not those defending the beliefs you are currently attacking.   :)


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 07, 2004, 04:04:11 PM
I stated what I am for in my OP.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: sojourner on May 07, 2004, 09:03:34 PM
Heidi,

I would be interested to see your interpretation of the following:
I Cor 4:15-17, I Cor 10:1,  Col 3:21.  Then Col 3:21, Luke 16:24-25

in conjuction with your statement that we should call no one father.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 08, 2004, 12:54:36 AM
Are you trying to prove Jesus is wrong? Why? To justify your allegiance to the pope? 1Cor;, 4:15-17, Paul NEVER said to CALL him our Holy Father. He asked us to use him as a role model. I suggest you re-read that passage. 1 Cor. 10:1, of course we had forefathers! Paul is referring to worldly ancestry, not our HOLY Father. Col; again, Paul is referring to wordly ancestry. The pope is not my ancestral nor my Holy Father. He is obviously yours. The passage in Luke was a quote of the rich man talking to Abraham. Did you even read the passage in Matthew where Jesus said not to call anyone 'father'? He was talking to the teachers of the law, people who considered themselves holy and like the titles of honorable men. I already explained this in another post. Do you agree or disagree with Christ's  words? I have no qualms about not calling anyone Holy Father except for my Father in heaven. I completely agree with Jesus's words. They apparently mean nothing to you. We will never agree because we have different Fathers.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: His_child on May 08, 2004, 01:05:18 AM
Are you trying to prove Jesus is wrong? Why? To justify your allegiance to the pope? 1Cor;, 4:15-17, Paul NEVER said to CALL him our Holy Father. He asked us to use him as a role model. I suggest you re-read that passage. 1 Cor. 10:1, of course we had forefathers! Paul is referring to worldly ancestry, not our HOLY Father. Col; again, Paul is referring to wordly ancestry. The pope is not my ancestral nor my Holy Father. He is obviously yours. The passage in Luke was a quote of the rich man talking to Abraham. Did you even read the passage in Matthew where Jesus said not to call anyone 'father'? He was talking to the teachers of the law, people who considered themselves holy and like the titles of honorable men. I already explained this in another post. Do you agree or disagree with Christ's  words? I have no qualms about not calling anyone Holy Father except for my Father in heaven. I completely agree with Jesus's words. They apparently mean nothing to you. We will never agree because we have different Fathers.

Rather cruel and callous statement to come up with for someone who asked you for your inturpretation of a few verses.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 08, 2004, 08:42:22 AM
Tell me, Justme, who is your Holy Father? Since you have more than one, it is very confusing to me whom you worship. How is that my fault? Anyone can say they worship Christ, even David Korseh and ALL false teachers. But were they put their reverence is what determines what they believe in their hearts.  "By their fruits you will recognize them." Again, how is that my fault?


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: sojourner on May 08, 2004, 10:16:31 AM
Heidi,

I Cor 4:15-17, I Cor 10:1,  Col 3:21.  Then  Luke 16:24-25
Not to show Christ or Jesus wrong, but to show that your understanding and interpretation is not what the Apostles taught to the early Christians.

I Cor 4:15-17

Based on your blanket interpretation of Matt 23:9 you would be immediately in conflict with Paul. Paul specifically admonished those in Cornith to call him Father.  Paul defines how he is using the term which is the same for every Bishop.

I Cor 10:1, Here Paul is not talking about ancestors in general, but the teachers, the prophets of the past. It is why we call or early Church leaders, Fathers of the Church.

Col 3:21,  I noticed you backtracked a little on your statement which was a blanket, call NO ONE on this earth your father.  This text only shows that there is no conflict in what Jesus said, which you have changed also.

Luke 16:24-25,  Again, if you would have been correct in your interpretation, I think the Angel here would have rebuked the Rich Man for calling Abraham Father. Here it is used in the 'past teacher' understanding.

Now, that we have some idea of what it does not mean. What does it actually mean.

The answer lies within the very versus surrounding the statement. Jesus is not taking issue with the particular title in and of itself.  If he where then he could have just as easily used Protestant terms of pastor or reverend.  The issue is about two critical areas of leadership,  teaching and personal character.

Jesus is speaking the the rabbis of His day, the scribes and Pharisees. He states that they started correctly sitting in the 'seat of Moses'.  It was their responsibility to preserve that tradition faithfully and pass it on. Instead of passing this sacred tradition with its true meaning, interpretation,  they would add their own, thus this error was also passed down. Thus Jesus is saying that the Mosiac Tradition was made of no effect with all the changes and additions. Jesus rebuked them 'for laying aside the commandment of God, you hold to the traditions of men...", "making the word of God of no effect..."
Then Jesus turning to the Apostles said to them, "But you, do not be called Rabbi'. Or, not to use their positions as teachers as an opportunity to build their own tradition and a personal following, thus making the deposit of faith of no effect. Christ is their ONLY teacher.  This is what the Aposbles have done and succeeding generations since.
By the way, you are correct is pointing out that the Pope, his person and title is in violation of this command. However, you  have been an unwitting disciple of it as well.





Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Gracey on May 08, 2004, 02:27:45 PM
Quote
Tell me, Justme, who is your Holy Father? Since you have more than one, it is very confusing to me whom you worship. How is that my fault? Anyone can say they worship Christ, even David Korseh and ALL false teachers. But were they put their reverence is what determines what they believe in their hearts. "By their fruits you will recognize them." Again, how is that my fault?

Sorry to get in your way Justme, but this, I believe should be addressed.

Heidi, just what are the "fruits" we are speaking of here? The fruit of the spirit?

Gal 5:22  But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23  meekness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Gal 5:24  But those belonging to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
Gal 5:25  If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26  Let us not become glory-seeking, provoking one another, envying one another.


If so, it would do us well to look first at our own fruits. I am quite sure we all fall short. Please, dear - try to have a little more patience (long-suffering) when posting your replies and quit yelling at peeps. Your zeal is admirable...but it does not, obviously, yet make you perfect. Let us not provoke one another, but love one another.

In Christ
Gracey


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 08, 2004, 03:42:45 PM
I am not only tired of being chastized for posting that we should worship Christ from our hearts first, but also frustrated because so many  "Christian" responders want to mock this very basic principle. I expect this kind of mocking from unbelievers because they do not agree that Jesus is the only way to God. But from "professed" Christians? Jesus was very firm and sometimes harsh with His words because He wanted to tell the truth before He wanted the praises of men. He even said,"How long must I put up with you?" I am simply a human being, not NEAR the level of Christ. Why should I expect more of myself than what Jesus Himself was able to handle?


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Gracey on May 08, 2004, 04:27:55 PM
Quote
I am not only tired of being chastized for posting that we should worship Christ from our hearts first,

I was not chastizing you (and certainly not for posting that we should worship Christ), only reminding you that we are required of Christ to be long-suffering. Consider how long-suffering God is with us.

It would serve HIM better if you try first to weigh your response to those who frustrate you with His love, His kindness and His patience. There are some who will bear no convincing no matter what you say, or how black and white the bible says it is....but what better way to show what Christ taught than by doing it? Remember when Christ sent his disciples out to the towns and cities? He told them that if the people wouldn't hear them, then move on.... "shake the dust of them off your feet". Sometimes you just have to.

At any rate, letting your frustration take hold of you harms Christ more than anyone else. This I learned, sadly, from experience.

Most certainly, this is something we should all do (note, I use the terms we and us because I do not exclude myself from this).

Consider how a response might look to someone who doesn't know Christ at all....try to see what they might see. Would it serve to draw them in, to help them want to know about Him? Or would they think we are a bunch of pithy quarrelers?

peace
Gracey


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 08, 2004, 04:36:44 PM
I understand that, Gracey. I also understand that if we were all perfect and without sin, there would be no miscommunications. I can be NO better than Christ. My frustration at the catholic church was similar to Christ's when the temple was being used as a den of thieves. My frustration at the lack of understanding by Christians of the basic principles of Christianity is the same as Christ's was at His disciples. I have endured MUCH mocking for standing up for believing Christ alone. I endure more and more all the time without frstration but I am still only a human being. I don't justify it but I am forgiven for it. Can you forgive me for it also?


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Gracey on May 08, 2004, 05:19:17 PM
Quote
I don't justify it but I am forgiven for it. Can you forgive me for it also?

Naturally so; we are charge with forgiving others as we have already been forgiven. Not one of us is perfect and we all "lose it" sometimes. It's more what we do once we've realized that....how we handle it. Do we allow the spirit to take over, or ourselves?

And of course we are human, and certainly not better than Christ. We must remember that although he had a righteous anger, it occurred seldom. That's a lot harder for us, in our "flesh"; but it becomes easier when we allow the spirit to work in us. We will never be perfect, dear, til we stand at His throne.

Certainly, keep on teaching of Christ; remember, though that there is a time to quit; to just say "we disagree" but since Christ loves us both (mistakes and all) we can at least have peace.

may His light shine upon you.

Gracey


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: His_child on May 09, 2004, 02:04:31 AM
Tell me, Justme, who is your Holy Father? Since you have more than one, it is very confusing to me whom you worship. How is that my fault? Anyone can say they worship Christ, even David Korseh and ALL false teachers. But were they put their reverence is what determines what they believe in their hearts.  "By their fruits you will recognize them." Again, how is that my fault?

Your attacks are getting tiring.

I'm sorry that I don't fit into your nice little box of what a Christian is.
I'll probably never fit into your box, but that is ok. Christ is the only one I need to please.

With all the threads you start on Catholicism, I'm beginning to think that you spend more time focusing on the Catholic church than the Catholics do.
I thought our focus was supposed to be Christ.

I detest the teachings of the Catholic church. However, if I said there were no Christians in the Catholic faith- I'd be a liar!

My very favorite female Gospel singer is a Catholic.
She has been involved in jail ministries, helping the homeless, women's ministries and I use some of the tools that she offers in her pro-life ministry.
You can judge her fruit by reading her books, listening to her songs, etc and you will find that she is a born-again Christian.
Her name is Kathy Troccoli and she is a Christian who attends a Catholic church.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: His_child on May 09, 2004, 02:26:47 AM
Tell me, Justme, who is your Holy Father? Since you have more than one, it is very confusing to me whom you worship. How is that my fault? Anyone can say they worship Christ, even David Korseh and ALL false teachers. But were they put their reverence is what determines what they believe in their hearts.  "By their fruits you will recognize them." Again, how is that my fault?

I find it interesting that you never questioned my Christianity until you found out that I don't follow your Calvinistic beliefs.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 09, 2004, 10:46:52 AM
Sojourner, as i've explained before, in 1 Co., 4:15-17, Paul is explaining why people should believe him and imitate him. He NEVER asked anyone to call him "Father" which is a title. He was only trying to show them that his interpretations come from Christ alone. So far. NO ONE has addressed Christ's words on this. Why did he say that? Can anyone answer that question here? Does anyone care what Jesus means? Or are they simply looking to justfiy the catholic church? Which is it?

In 1 Co., 10:1. Paul called them BROTHERS. I take this to mean that he saw himself as their brothers.

Again, if we don't know Jesus's words FIRST, then there are as many different interpretations of the bible as there are people who read it. True teachings DO NOT CONTRADICT Jesus's words. I do NOT see a contradiction between Paul and Jesus's words here at all. Paul never asked to be called 'father'. He is the father of the gospel just as Freud is the father of modern psychology. But neither of them asks us to call them our Father, much less our Holy Father. Jesus speicifically asks us NOT, I repeat, NOT to do that. It could NOT be any clearer!!!! Jesus is referring to a TITLE that is reserved for ONE, I repeat, ONE and He is in heaven. But nevertheless, he is ignored in  favor of the catholic church. Therefore, there is MUCH confusion as to who is the Holy Father of the catholic's which is ONE big reason why Jesus asked us not to do that. The same title is given to 2 people instead of one. In my heart, I can never call ANYONE my Holy Father excpet God alone because He deserves a title which NO OTHER MAN deserves! How again, is it my fault if I don't know which Holy Father the catholics are worshiping? they have the same title.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: sojourner on May 09, 2004, 01:23:01 PM
Heidi,

All, I can say is that you want to see only what you see.
I Cor 4:15-17. Again, you are looking for  a very specific directive which in most cases is impossible.  

It is not the case of Paul interpreting, he was using the inference and pointing to himself as a role model, as someone to imulate, a teacher, thus their Father. Yes, Christ is the teacher, par excellant, but He bestowed that responsibility to the Church and the Bishop who is the ecclessiastical leader
.
In Cor 1:10, it is not the word 'brother' that we are referring to, but the word' father'. Here Paul uses it exactly as we use it for our early Church Fathers. There were our teachers then and we have teachers now.
Then you say that Paul is the father of the Gospel. Wow, really! You might be confusing him with Luther or Calvin, et el.

At this point the discussion is not what Jesus said or even meant from my vantage point. I and a couple of others are trying to show that the statement and your interpretation could not possible be correct because there are several violations directly in scripture.
It is for you to show that they are not in violation of Jesus' words.  By your understanding, that would should not ever appear anywhere in Scripture except as a substitute for the word, Jesus, Christ, etc.
What say ye?

Another thing which you seem to keep complaining about does not even apply to me. I have explained this to you several times that I am Orthodox, I have clearly, I thought, told you that I even agree with you on this score regarding the Pope.
Do you know the differences between the Roman Catholics and the Orthodox Catholics?





Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 09, 2004, 02:44:50 PM
I do not see that my interpretation of Jesus's words as violating scripture at all! Again, Paul never told us to call him father, did he? He is NOT our Holy Father, nor did he EVER claim to be. He called himself the father of the gospel which he is. That is NOT the same as our Holy Father. I already know that you were looking at the term "forefathers"  in the passage you cited and I answered than on another thread. I also focused on the term BROTHERS, because you ignored that part. I said that of course Abraham and others were our forfathers! Paul was referring to worldly ancestry and teachers before Christ. Jesus also said in Luke; 161:16, "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. SINCE that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached." Jesus is saying that when the Holy Spirit enters us, we now have a NEW Father becuase we are now born of the SPIRIT.  Do you even UNDERSTAND what that means at all? Do you KNOW who your Holy Father is? Do you care? Or do you want to share the title of your Holy Father with an earthly being?  It is you who does not understand what Jesus means. YOU HAVE NEVER EVEN TRIED TO EXPLAIN WHAT HE MEANS. None of you has! All you have done is tried to justify why we should disobey Christ. If you don't think it is disobeying Him, then why don't you explain what He means? The reason you can't explain Jesus's words is that they incriminate you. All the church has to do is KNOW AND BELIEVE CHRIST'S WORDS. But no, they know BETTER than He does what is right and wrong. Christianity could be so simple if people would just believe Jesus. But our human pride gets in the way. We want to glorify ourselves, think we know better and that brings corruption into the church. The latter reason is SPECIFICALLY why he warned us not to call anyone 'father' because he knows our tendency to glorify ourselves.

Since none of you catholic defenders has ever been able to explain that passage, I will quote it in full:Matthew, 23:5-12, "Everything they do is for men to see. They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; they love to take the place of honor and the most important seatsw in he synogogue; they love to be greeted in the market places and to have men call them 'Rabbi'. But you are not to be called 'Rabbi' for you have only one Master and you are ALL brothers. And do not call anyone on earth 'father', for you have one Father and He is in heaven. Nor are you to be called 'teacher' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled and whoever humbles himself will be exalted." When you understand those words, only THEN will you be able to understand the passages you quoted. That passage does NOT describe Paul in the least! But it DOES describe the catholic church.  They parade around in robes showing that they are holy. They do not pray in private as Jesus told us to do. They make a big deal out of Lent instead of trying to disguise their fasting. They call each other Father, Holy Father, Bishops, and Cardinals instead of brothers.  In fact, they disobey almost every single one of Christ's teachings. The "honor him with their lips but their hearts are far from me." They honor the worldly temply instead of the temple inside us which is Christ. They exalt Mary when there is NO scripture from Jesus telling us to do so. In fact, when someone in the crowd yelled, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you", Jesus replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it." But no, the catholic church knows better than Jesus. In Mark, 3:31-33, when told that his brothers and mother were there, Jesus replied; "Who are my mother and brothers?" Then he looked at those seated in the circle around him and said,;"Here are my mother and mt brothers! Whoever does God's will is my brother and my sister and my mother." But no, again the catholic church disagrees with him. He is wrong! Mary is more blessed than Jesus syas she is. But who is Jesus? he's not their Holy father the pope is! And he knows best.
     If you're going to chastize me for believing Jesus's words, then be my guest. He said; "Blessed are you when you are persecuted for my sake." I have a clear conscience. if you want to believe the pope is infallible and knows better than Jesus, then you are free to do so. But since you have 2 Holy Fathers, don't blame me if I'm confused about whom you worship. That's why Jesus warned us not to call anyone on earth Holy Father. If you give the same title to a person that you give God, then not only are you dishonoring God, but you are putting them on the same level. There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to do that. None...unless of course, you do see the pope as God.  


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: sojourner on May 09, 2004, 03:09:39 PM
Heidi,

You just spent a whole response that has almost nothing to do with me. Twice in my post immediately preceding yours I told you I was Orthodox. I told you that earlier and then also told you we do not have a Pope. Thus you wasted a lot of words.

What does apply, is that you are denying what you have stated earlier.
Clearly, that was that we cannot call anyone father since only God is our father.
That was your interpretation of the Matt 23 text. All of my other texts showed that, IF THAT IS TRUE, then Paul and others were in violation of that command. Either they are in violation which you have not explained, or your interpretation is not correct.
Which is it, and stay on point in your answer. Don't give me a harangue.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 09, 2004, 09:42:20 PM
You have shown that you obviously do not only understand what i was saying but you don't understand Jesus's words either. Do you say "Father Paul"? Did Paul ASK us to CALL him Father? yes or no? Jesus is referring to a TITLE, sojourner, not a DESCRIPTION of an ancestry or founder. That's what He means by CALLING someone 'father' or Rabbi. It is a title. which indicates subservience in a holy way. That is why you completely misunderstand Jesus's words, otherwise you're saying that He and Paul are contradicting each other, which they aren't at all. Paul never asked us to call Him 'Father" and Jesus told us NOT to call anyone on earth 'father'. They are in complete agreement with each other.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: sojourner on May 09, 2004, 11:16:48 PM
Heidi,

Quote
Paul never asked us to call Him 'Father" and Jesus told us NOT to call anyone on earth 'father'. They are in complete agreement with each other.

Heidi, I really don't know how to say it. But, the statement above in contradicted in Scripture. It is not a matter of Paul requesting that we call him 'father'.

It is rather, what Jesus meant, which is opposed to the latter part of your statment. You are making a blanket statment for your understanding that it means,  to not call ANYONE on earth Father.

Now, if that be so, then the texts that I showed you earlier are in contradiction, not with me or my understanding of them but with your statement.

In my most recent post prior to this, I asked you to reconcile this conflict in what you are saying and what appears elsewhere in Scripture.  You may have a good argument, but I have not heard it as yet. It is probably  one I could not agree with, but that is not the point.
Give it a try.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 09, 2004, 11:30:05 PM
So do you think Jesus is lying by telling us not to call anyone 'father'? Because by your interpretation, Paul disagrees with Jesus. In my interpretation, He does not.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: sojourner on May 10, 2004, 12:11:15 AM
Heidi,

Hopefully I can get you to see what I am trying to do here.
It is not either my understanding or interpretation.

It is your interpretation that is in conflict. You say it does not conflict, but you have not shown why or how.
I want to know why you don't see a conflict. Simply telling me that there is none, doesn't cut it.

Let me put it another way. Based on your interpretation, a blanket statment on the word, father, you cannot call your natural father, father without being in conflict with your understanding. That is what you need to explain.



Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 10, 2004, 09:17:53 AM
I explain this in the thread; "Knowing Christ's Words."


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Gracey on May 10, 2004, 09:58:52 AM
Perhaps this will help (or perhaps not):

A definition of 'father' from Easton's Bible Dictionery
Quote
A name applied
(1.) to any ancestor (Deu_1:11; 1Ki_15:11; Mat_3:9; Mat_23:30, etc.); and
(2.) as a title of respect to a chief, ruler, or elder, etc. (Jdg_17:10; Jdg_18:19; 1Sa_10:12; 2Ki_2:12; Mat_23:9, etc.).
(3.) The author or beginner of anything is also so called; e.g., Jabal and Jubal (Gen_4:20, Gen_4:21; compare Job_38:28).
Applied to God (Exo_4:22; Deu_32:6; 2Sa_7:14; Psa_89:27, Psa_89:28, etc.).
(1.) As denoting his covenant relation to the Jews (Jer_31:9; Isa_63:16; Isa_64:8; Joh_8:41, etc.).
(2.) Believers are called God's “sons” (Joh_1:12; Rom_8:16; Mat_6:4, Mat_6:8, Mat_6:15, Mat_6:18; Mat_10:20, Mat_10:29). They also call him “Father” (Rom_1:7; 1Co_1:3; 2Co_1:2; Gal_1:4)

It appears from some of these arguments I am reading that some of that confusion is with the definitions of the word Father - in other words, whether it's being used as a descriptive word, or as a Title.

I am not going to wade into this one, but maybe defining the "definition" of the word will be of some help.

Gracey
 :)


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 10, 2004, 10:15:12 AM
The only meaning that does not contradict either Jesus's or Paul's words is that Jesus was talking about a title. Paul descibes specific fathers, i.e. forfathers, the father of the gospel, etc. just like one would describe a doctor. That is completely DIFFERENT than honoring someone with a title, especially a Holy Title. That is what Jesus is warning us against. His WHOLE passage elaborated on that meaning and only that meaning; calling attention to one's holiness, which is the sin of pride. The best way not to have ANY confusion about the motive of the person carrying a title is to simply not have any titles, which Jesus instructs us to do. Not only does the catholic church ignore this, it deliberately USES the name, 'father' and even adds the term "Holy" to it. This is nothing but a slap in the face of Jesus. Even if Jesus had never said that, I, in my heart could NEVER call ANYONE my Holy Father because i do not SEE them as my Holy Father! The allegiance in my heart is to Christ alone who glorifies our Father in Heaven.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Gracey on May 10, 2004, 10:46:10 AM
For the most part, I agree with not giving anyone the title "Father or Holy Father", but we use an awful lot of titles in this world, Heidi.

Quote
The best way not to have ANY confusion about the motive of the person carrying a title is to simply not have any titles

Now, it is quite possible you don't do any of this:

- address someone as Mr, Mrs, Miss or Ms
- address anyone as Dr.
- address anyone as Senator, President, Vice President, etc.
- address anyone as Pastor or Professor

There are lots of others I won't list. These are titles used in every day life. Using certain titles is way of offering respect to someone. Some titles are certainly quite acceptable, even to Jesus. There's a difference between being humble and false humility. Christ asks us not to seek titles of high standing for the sake of appearing great in men's eyes; being offered respect by someone is not the same as seeking it to put ourselves above others. Beinging on the receiving end of someones respect is a marvelous opportunity to give God the glory.

We reap what we sow.

Gracey


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 10, 2004, 10:49:32 AM
Gracey, do you know what Jesus means by not calling anyone on earth 'father'?


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Nickolai on May 10, 2004, 10:56:05 AM
Gracey, do you know what Jesus means by not calling anyone on earth 'father'?

I'm pretty sure Gracey does know what he means.  But since it conflicts with your PERSONAL interpretation it must be wrong.  Please enlighten me oh wise Heidi   ::)


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Gracey on May 10, 2004, 11:30:42 AM
Quote
Gracey, do you know what Jesus means by not calling anyone on earth 'father'?

Christ's referrences throughout the bible have to do with worship and not with a title. There is only one God.

Not calling someone father means to not worship anyone but God; He alone is Holy. He also tells us not to seek status by calling attention to ourselves, like the Pharisees.

My earthly father was my father (in terms of the fact that he was my sire); God is my Heavenly Father as He is the creator, the author and the perfector; the issuer of all life, not just mine.

Since my dad died last year, I call no one on earth father, except God whom I tend to refer to as "Father God" or "Father in Heaven".  

But, even the bible refers to satan as a father - for instance he is called the father of lies.

Also - rather than answer the question I posed to you, you asked me one. Since I've obliged you with an answer, would you mind doing me the same kidness? Do you never address anyone by their title?

Gracey


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 10, 2004, 11:49:28 AM
And how is using the title of Holy Father, which everyone in the world attributes to the pope, not calling attention to one's holiness? How is parading around in black robes with white collars not calling attention to one's holiness? How is public fasting not calling attention to one's holiness? How is living in a luxurious palace fit for kings, adorned with gold and bronze statues, (some of them pagan gods like apollo),wearing bright red robes, carrying gold studded candleholders, worshiping on a gold studded altar not calling attention to one's holiness? it would be good for you, Gracey, to read the OT and see how God looks upon these things. You don't have to believe Christ. You need to soak up scripture in order to see what our real HOLY FATHER tells us to do.

Satan is the father of lies. Those who call him "Father" see him as THEIR father, which was jesus's whole point!. Whomever we call "Father" much less "Holy Father" IS whom we worship!


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Gracey on May 10, 2004, 01:02:54 PM
Quote
And how is using the title of Holy Father, which everyone in the world attributes to the pope, not calling attention to one's holiness?

I, for one do not attribute this title to the Pope, but to my heavenly Father. From what you tell me in other posts, you also do not attribute that name to the Pope....which means there are at the very least two of us. That makes your statement somewhat untruthful.

The rest of that post had absolutely nothing to do with answering the very simple little question I asked you. Personally, I have no interest in the robes, collars, etc. I am not catholic, but christian.

The question I was wanting answered was simply this; do you never, ever call anyone by any sort of title at all? Very simple, really.

Quote
Satan is the father of lies. Those who call him "Father" see him as THEIR father, which was jesus's whole point!. Whomever we call "Father" much less "Holy Father" IS whom we worship!

Do you think God believes that I worshiped my dad? God sees into the hearts of men, even yours and mine. He knows whether calling my dad "my father" or "Mr"  whether I call my Pastor "Pastor" is out of respect or out of worship. On the other, neither you nor I can say what is in anyone's heart but our own.

As for reading the OT, I've been there many times. You seem to think I am "new" to the faith.... I am not. That doesn't, however, mean that I've stopped learning. If we truly desire to attain what Christ has asked of us, then we never stop trying to learn.

peace
Gracey





Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: His_child on May 10, 2004, 01:18:55 PM
Excellent post Gracey. Very eloquently said!


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 10, 2004, 02:37:29 PM
The pope is generally accepted to be the Holy Father is he not? Politicians all over the world go to the vatican to get his interpretation of the bible. That is what I meant.

My post was directed toward anyone who does not believe Jesus's words. if you do, then it was not directed at you.

Of course I use titles. Jesus did not say to not use titles EXCEPT for 'father' and 'teacher.' He specifically referred to those 2 titles because they describe who our real teacher and father are. The catholic church deliberately disobeys Him. They pick the very word that He specifically asked us not to pick. Mr., Mrs., Dr., etc. do not indicate a HOLY relationship of subservience as 'Father' and teacher' depict. That is why Jesus specifically used those 2 words. I agree with Him. It sounds like you do also.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Gracey on May 10, 2004, 03:04:37 PM
Quote
The pope is generally accepted to be the Holy Father is he not? Politicians all over the world go to the vatican to get his interpretation of the bible. That is what I meant.

My apologies - what you said and what you meant were different, I guess.

Quote
My post was directed toward anyone who does not believe Jesus's words. if you do, then it was not directed at you

Since you use my name in the middle of the post in question and you quote some of the passages from my post directly above your post (getting pretty "wordy" here, eh?  :) ) I assumed you were responding to me.

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Of course I use titles.

Thank you for answering my question, but you can't have it both ways. You also said in a previous post:

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The best way not to have ANY confusion about the motive of the person carrying a title is to simply not have any titles

You see, Heidi, in this case although I do agree somewhat with you (in using the title Father, but not in using the word father - there's a difference) there are better ways to present our case.... and always, we should try not to contradict ourselves (I have done that plenty of times, but I am learning).

blessings
Gracey



Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 10, 2004, 06:13:55 PM
I am referring to the titles Jesus was referring to. Namely, "Rabbi" "Father, "Teacher." He was talking to religious people about who they worship. This excludes doctors, lawyers, etc., people to whom we are not in holy subservience. I'm sorry, I thought this was evident.

It might not be a matter of contradiction more than not being able to assess the emotional tone of posts. It's difficult to do that over the internet.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Gracey on May 10, 2004, 06:50:28 PM
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It might not be a matter of contradiction more than not being able to assess the emotional tone of posts. It's difficult to do that over the internet.

Indeed it is  :)

Also, it appears it comes down to the difference between title and word. Rather simple when we "attack" it unemotionally!

Well done.

Gracey


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 10, 2004, 07:12:04 PM
Thanks, Gracey. It's nice to get a compliment for standing up for Christ. I feel like I'm fighting a losing battle sometimes. Thanks again.  


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: sojourner on May 10, 2004, 07:25:17 PM
Heidi,

Greetings again,

I see that this thread has had a lot of action during the day.
I see again that you gave to Gracey the same meaning as you gave to me several posts back.
However, you seem to be on a one track mind and can't change a mode of outlook.

Here is another statement you just made in the post above that contradicts your original statment and it also contradicts your explanation of a difference between 'title and description'

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Whomever we call "Father" much less "Holy Father" IS whom we worship!
That is a conflict again with your original because you claim that you cannot call anyone father, period. In your explanation of meaning titles, you would also still be in violation.
Based on another post you made to another poster, you seem to be narrowing it down to only religious reference, which removes secular references such as your human father, or Father of something,
That is what I was attempting to get you to see. That it was your own interpretation that was in conflict with either your uses or explanations.  You were not connecting the two.
In your mind you may have, but then I cannot read your mind.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 10, 2004, 09:42:14 PM
Anyone ON EARTH Father. I may have slipped up once or twice in some posts but I have quoted Jesus's words MANY times in the last several days. If you're simply looking to find errors, you will find them. But if you're trying to understand the meaning of my posts, then I trust you will focus on the meaning rather than looking to prove Jesus wrong.

Again, sojourner, as I explained several times, Jesus is talking about a holy subservience as opposed to titles that do not breed that kind of relationship. That is why he specifically used the terms 'father' 'teacher' and 'Rabbi." Those imply a relationship to those to whom we look for the truth. There is a reason that Jesus said not to call people those names. Do you call Satan your Father? Why/why not? If you don't, then why do you call a MAN your Holy Father? What's the difference?  I worship only ONE Father. Again, I will not give the title I give to God to ANY man. Jesus instructs us not to do that. You can do as your heart leads you. "For where your heart is, there also will be your treasure." My heart is toward my Father in heaven. You have to look inside your heart and see who rules it; men or God. Then you will know who to call your Holy Father.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: sojourner on May 11, 2004, 12:12:46 AM
Heidi,

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But if you're trying to understand the meaning of my posts, then I trust you will focus on the meaning rather than looking to prove Jesus wrong.
Ah, Ah..... I am trying to understand your post. Having a difficult time until this post. Other than my very first post, I have not either attempted to give you my interpretation nor to show yours as incorrect.
All I was trying to do was get you to explain the difference between what Jesus said and what you said about it, versus other uses in the Bible of the word, Father.

This is the very first post that you have actually have the quote and your explanation together. And understand, your words, your explanation of what Christ said, is not Christ's words. They are your understanding of them.

In another post dealing with the Body and Blood of Christ you also did very well. You gave your understanding of Jesus's words. However, you do not need to constantly say, "it is Jesus' word". Anyone can quote, even the devil. It is their meaning that we are discussing. When you add your words or opinion, view, argument it is no longer Jesus' word, but your understanding of those words.

As you already know I do not agree with you. The view of that text I gave has been the view of the Apostles and has been tranmitted down for 2000 years.

Incidently, in your understanding, based on your interpretation of Jesus's words, what about the Lord's Prayer.
Jesus starts out with: "Our Father who art in Heaven,..." Why the distinction of being in Heaven. There are no fathers on earth, right?

Just something for you to think about.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 11, 2004, 08:14:31 AM
I figured that was your point. But when Jesus said, "Do not call anyone on earth 'father'" does he mean the cow jumped over the moon? Does he mean "do not call anyone on earth silly? does he mean "do not call anyone on earth a horse? Or does he mean do not call anyone on earth 'father'"?There is no mysterious interpretation here, Sojourner, except understanding the english language. I know some people have a hard time with the English language, but as I said many times earlier, His meaning COULD NOT BE ANY CLEARER! Eeveryday, I read his words. When I look at all of them, most of his words mean exactly what they say that even a child could understand them. If a child read the phrase, "I am the bread of life." The child would ask, "are we supposed to eat him?" The answer is yes! But adults would say, "that's impossible!" THAT IS MY WHOLE POINT!

Again, instead of believing Jesus, the first reaction of most adults is to DIBELIEVE Him, then look for hidden meanings. THAT is where distortions and misinterpretations come in! When Jesus said; "The work of God is this; to believe in the one He sent." A child would say,; Goodie! That's all I have to do!" Or, "I do." An adult would say, "no, the work of God is to love each other or go help your neighbor, or get out of sin, or any number of things. But he would not simply believe those simple words. The fact is that those simple words are ALL we have to do. HE does the rest! Good works come from the spirit. Jesus died to take awya our sins. All I have to do is confess that I don't love my neighbor and receive His forgiveness, love, and mercy, and THAT is what I give to my neighbor! It is done. IT IS FINISHED! His forgiveness inside me are the ONLY thing that produce good works! That is why they are called the fruits of the spirit, not the fruits of me!

Therefore, belief comes FIRST, and understanding will follow. If more Christians did that, then not only would there be NO disunity, misundertanding, misinterpretations, but we would KNOW that NO ONe can be snatched out of His hand! ALL we have to do is BELIEVE that. But most do not. That is why Jesus said to come to Him as little children.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: sojourner on May 11, 2004, 06:32:59 PM
Heidi,


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There is no mysterious interpretation here, Sojourner, except understanding the english language. I know some people have a hard time with the English language, but as I said many times earlier, His meaning COULD NOT BE ANY CLEARER!

I'll agree it is not mysterious. But the meaning is not clear at all based on all the confusion. It turned out it was not really what the plain meaning of the phrase was, since you finally interpreted what you thought it meant. That is not clear or self explanatory if it takes someone to interpret.

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The fact is that those simple words are ALL we have to do. HE does the rest!
I believe in those simple words too. But for me they imply much more.  I need to believe. However, there are many other words in the Bible that not only imply but strongly emphasize that it is actually much more than 'just believe'.
Your words 'he does the rest', can be true if you say that what we do is through His Grace. It is all Grace but we also must cooperate.  He does not actually love your neighbor for you but He gives you power and Grace to accomplish that end. If you don't you have not used His Grace. Christians are not 'couch potatos' that we actually depend on God to fulfill his commands for us. That is not why we were created.

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His forgiveness inside me are the ONLY thing that produce good works!
I don't think you will find any scripture that says this. You produce good works because of your faith and through God's Grace. Knowing we will not be perfect in this task, that we will sin, He has provided  forgiveness whereby we can continue to remain in communion with Him.  If you do not do the works of righteousness, you have no faith. Faith without works is dead, works without faith are meaningless.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 11, 2004, 07:29:48 PM
"Do not call anyone 'father' for you have only one Father and He is in heaven" is very clear. But to those who don't believe it, it took 6 pages of explanation to bring them back to the original statement! When people don't want to believe his words, they look for ANTYHING else other than His words to justify why they don't want to do what he says. Again, his words can't be any clearer! In order to prove he is telling the truth, I used his words in that whole passage to explain it. STILL people don't believe him! It shouldn't have had to be explained in the first place if people believed him to begin with.

To whom do you give credit for your good works, Sojourner, God or yourself? if you give yourself the credit, that is the sin of pride which is from the devil, not God. The fruits are called; "fruits of the SPIRIT", not the fruits from ourselves! The Holy Spirit is what brings me closer to God, not the devil. Instead of "trying" to obey Him, all we have to do is ask God for forgiveness for our sin. it is then His forgiveness, love, and mercy, that replaces our sins. then we operate out of that forgiveness instead of from our sinful nature. "Come to me and i will give you rest." "It is finished." "For I have not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it." Since we cannot obey the law, His death fulfilled it for us. Now all we have to do is come to Him. Once again, all you have to do is believe His words. Notice that he did not elaborate on the work of God. He said; "the work of God is this: to believe in the one He sent." But no, humans don't believe that. we add our own definitions to it. I believe Him. You don't have to.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: sojourner on May 11, 2004, 09:57:08 PM
Heidi,

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But to those who don't believe it, it took 6 pages of explanation to bring them back to the original statement!
Two things, the last six pages was for no one else's benefit except yours. And now you again say that it brings us back to the original statement.
Does that mean you again want it to be an absolute statement?
If so, it contradicts your own explanation of that verse. You cannot call your human father,'father' without being in violation of that absolute statement.

What is very clear is that Jesus was not making an absolute statement because as I showed you with the texts elsewhere, the Apostles and you would be contradicting that absolute statement.
Now, it seems you have thrown everything to the winds and have gone back on what it means even for you.

I'm curious about another phrase that has caused much misinterpretion as well. Here it is I John 3:6. Do you believe this is an absolute statment.

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To whom do you give credit for your good works, Sojourner, God or yourself?
I believe I answered that but apparently my clear words need interpreting. Here it is again.
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Your words 'he does the rest', can be true if you say that what we do is through His Grace. It is all Grace but we also must cooperate.

If all we need to do is to believe how do you handle texts where an action is required on our part. They are just to numerous to list here but just one will suffice. James 1:22

I do more than believe, I am following Him! Are you or do you think that He means that He is following Himself for you?



Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Heidi on May 11, 2004, 10:56:30 PM
It wasn't for my benefit at all because I already knew what that passage meant.! I believe it word for word. You do not. After I was born again of the Holy Spirit, my Father is God. Jesus never called Joseph, His father, never. The only father he referred to is his Father in heaven. John, 1:12-13, "Yet to all received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to be children of God-children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God." That's what being born again means. Ever since being born again, I have never called anyone else my father but God alone. My biggest objection to the catholic church is that they deliberately USE the name father for someone who is not even a blood relative of the people who call him father! There is NO reason to take the title "Father", much less Holy Father, especially when Jesus told us NOT to. I can understand if Christians still want to call their earthly father 'father' , although I don't condone it, but a Christian church giving a title to a religious leader (which was the context in which Jesus explains this) deliberately disobeying him is a slap in Christ's face. There is absolutely NO reason to do this. None. You don't have to believe His words but instead can give them YOUR interpretation, but i believe them exactly as they were written. I'm not the one who is interpreting them. I simply believe them. A child would take the same meaning from them that I do. He wouldn't try to twist them to fit his own agenda. There really is no point in continuing this exchange. I have explained why I believe his words. It is because people don't believe his words that there are so many miscommunications and distortions in understanding scripture. Again, "The work of God is this; to believe in the one He sent." You don't have to believe Him. You can think He should have said more than that. That's your choice. But I believe Him.  


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: His_child on May 12, 2004, 10:32:57 AM
Jesus never called Joseph, His father, never. The only father he referred to is his Father in heaven. John, 1:12-13, "Yet to all received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to be children of God-children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God." That's what being born again means. Ever since being born again, I have never called anyone else my father but God alone. My biggest objection to the catholic church is that they deliberately USE the name father for someone who is not even a blood relative of the people who call him father! There is NO reason to take the title "Father", much less Holy Father, especially when Jesus told us NOT to. I can understand if Christians still want to call their earthly father 'father' , although I don't condone it, but a Christian church giving a title to a religious leader (which was the context in which Jesus explains this) deliberately disobeying him is a slap in Christ's face. There is absolutely NO reason to do this. None. You don't have to believe His words but instead can give them YOUR interpretation, but i believe them exactly as they were written. I'm not the one who is interpreting them. I simply believe them. A child would take the same meaning from them that I do. He wouldn't try to twist them to fit his own agenda. There really is no point in continuing this exchange. I have explained why I believe his words. It is because people don't believe his words that there are so many miscommunications and distortions in understanding scripture. Again, "The work of God is this; to believe in the one He sent." You don't have to believe Him. You can think He should have said more than that. That's your choice. But I believe Him.  

What did Jesus call Joseph then?
The 10 Commandments tell us to honor our father and mother.
Proverbs talks many times about honoring our father.


I don't think that we should give the title Father (upper case F) to any man- that should be saved for our Heavenly Father. However, the Bible does refer to our paternal parental figure as our father (lower case f).


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: ebia on May 12, 2004, 10:15:21 PM
Jesus never called Joseph, His father, never.
How do you possibly know this?  Do you honestly think the only words Jesus ever said to St Joe are the two sentences in Luke Ch 2?


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I can understand if Christians still want to call their earthly father 'father' , although I don't condone it,
So what word would you have them use?

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I'm not the one who is interpreting them. I simply believe them.
Until you get over this, you'll never understand where you are going wrong.  Words don't mean anything until you interpret them.  To say I believe the words but I'm not interpreting them is meaningless.

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A child would take the same meaning from them that I do.
Maybe, maybe not.  Either way it's still an interpretation, and not necessarly the correct one.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: ebia on May 12, 2004, 10:19:42 PM
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I don't think that we should give the title Father (upper case F) to any man- that should be saved for our Heavenly Father. However, the Bible does refer to our paternal parental figure as our father (lower case f).
But capitalization is a modern, man-made concept.  ???


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Nickolai on May 13, 2004, 10:27:17 AM
Please forgive me Heidi.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Gracey on May 13, 2004, 04:47:37 PM
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You forget ebia, Heidi probably thinks that everything Jesus ever said is written in the Bible.

Nickolai;

That was unkind. Post what you want TO her, but it's not nice to post something like that about her.

I thought better of you.


grace and peace
Gracey


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Nickolai on May 14, 2004, 03:20:27 PM
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You forget ebia, Heidi probably thinks that everything Jesus ever said is written in the Bible.

Nickolai;

That was unkind. Post what you want TO her, but it's not nice to post something like that about her.

I thought better of you.


grace and peace
Gracey


You're right, that wasn't very nice.  I deleted the post.


Title: Re:True teachings vs. false teachings
Post by: Gracey on May 14, 2004, 05:23:25 PM
Nickolai - bless you    :)