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Our Lord Jesus Christ loves you.
282853 Posts in 27483 Topics by 3790 Members
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| | |-+  True teachings vs. false teachings
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Author Topic: True teachings vs. false teachings  (Read 6585 times)
Gracey
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« Reply #75 on: May 10, 2004, 01:02:54 PM »

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And how is using the title of Holy Father, which everyone in the world attributes to the pope, not calling attention to one's holiness?

I, for one do not attribute this title to the Pope, but to my heavenly Father. From what you tell me in other posts, you also do not attribute that name to the Pope....which means there are at the very least two of us. That makes your statement somewhat untruthful.

The rest of that post had absolutely nothing to do with answering the very simple little question I asked you. Personally, I have no interest in the robes, collars, etc. I am not catholic, but christian.

The question I was wanting answered was simply this; do you never, ever call anyone by any sort of title at all? Very simple, really.

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Satan is the father of lies. Those who call him "Father" see him as THEIR father, which was jesus's whole point!. Whomever we call "Father" much less "Holy Father" IS whom we worship!

Do you think God believes that I worshiped my dad? God sees into the hearts of men, even yours and mine. He knows whether calling my dad "my father" or "Mr"  whether I call my Pastor "Pastor" is out of respect or out of worship. On the other, neither you nor I can say what is in anyone's heart but our own.

As for reading the OT, I've been there many times. You seem to think I am "new" to the faith.... I am not. That doesn't, however, mean that I've stopped learning. If we truly desire to attain what Christ has asked of us, then we never stop trying to learn.

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Gracey



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« Reply #76 on: May 10, 2004, 01:18:55 PM »

Excellent post Gracey. Very eloquently said!
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Heidi
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« Reply #77 on: May 10, 2004, 02:37:29 PM »

The pope is generally accepted to be the Holy Father is he not? Politicians all over the world go to the vatican to get his interpretation of the bible. That is what I meant.

My post was directed toward anyone who does not believe Jesus's words. if you do, then it was not directed at you.

Of course I use titles. Jesus did not say to not use titles EXCEPT for 'father' and 'teacher.' He specifically referred to those 2 titles because they describe who our real teacher and father are. The catholic church deliberately disobeys Him. They pick the very word that He specifically asked us not to pick. Mr., Mrs., Dr., etc. do not indicate a HOLY relationship of subservience as 'Father' and teacher' depict. That is why Jesus specifically used those 2 words. I agree with Him. It sounds like you do also.
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Gracey
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« Reply #78 on: May 10, 2004, 03:04:37 PM »

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The pope is generally accepted to be the Holy Father is he not? Politicians all over the world go to the vatican to get his interpretation of the bible. That is what I meant.

My apologies - what you said and what you meant were different, I guess.

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My post was directed toward anyone who does not believe Jesus's words. if you do, then it was not directed at you

Since you use my name in the middle of the post in question and you quote some of the passages from my post directly above your post (getting pretty "wordy" here, eh?  Smiley ) I assumed you were responding to me.

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Of course I use titles.

Thank you for answering my question, but you can't have it both ways. You also said in a previous post:

Quote
Quote:
The best way not to have ANY confusion about the motive of the person carrying a title is to simply not have any titles

You see, Heidi, in this case although I do agree somewhat with you (in using the title Father, but not in using the word father - there's a difference) there are better ways to present our case.... and always, we should try not to contradict ourselves (I have done that plenty of times, but I am learning).

blessings
Gracey

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Heidi
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« Reply #79 on: May 10, 2004, 06:13:55 PM »

I am referring to the titles Jesus was referring to. Namely, "Rabbi" "Father, "Teacher." He was talking to religious people about who they worship. This excludes doctors, lawyers, etc., people to whom we are not in holy subservience. I'm sorry, I thought this was evident.

It might not be a matter of contradiction more than not being able to assess the emotional tone of posts. It's difficult to do that over the internet.
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Gracey
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« Reply #80 on: May 10, 2004, 06:50:28 PM »

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It might not be a matter of contradiction more than not being able to assess the emotional tone of posts. It's difficult to do that over the internet.

Indeed it is  Smiley

Also, it appears it comes down to the difference between title and word. Rather simple when we "attack" it unemotionally!

Well done.

Gracey
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Heidi
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« Reply #81 on: May 10, 2004, 07:12:04 PM »

Thanks, Gracey. It's nice to get a compliment for standing up for Christ. I feel like I'm fighting a losing battle sometimes. Thanks again.  
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sojourner
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« Reply #82 on: May 10, 2004, 07:25:17 PM »

Heidi,

Greetings again,

I see that this thread has had a lot of action during the day.
I see again that you gave to Gracey the same meaning as you gave to me several posts back.
However, you seem to be on a one track mind and can't change a mode of outlook.

Here is another statement you just made in the post above that contradicts your original statment and it also contradicts your explanation of a difference between 'title and description'

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Whomever we call "Father" much less "Holy Father" IS whom we worship!
That is a conflict again with your original because you claim that you cannot call anyone father, period. In your explanation of meaning titles, you would also still be in violation.
Based on another post you made to another poster, you seem to be narrowing it down to only religious reference, which removes secular references such as your human father, or Father of something,
That is what I was attempting to get you to see. That it was your own interpretation that was in conflict with either your uses or explanations.  You were not connecting the two.
In your mind you may have, but then I cannot read your mind.
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Heidi
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« Reply #83 on: May 10, 2004, 09:42:14 PM »

Anyone ON EARTH Father. I may have slipped up once or twice in some posts but I have quoted Jesus's words MANY times in the last several days. If you're simply looking to find errors, you will find them. But if you're trying to understand the meaning of my posts, then I trust you will focus on the meaning rather than looking to prove Jesus wrong.

Again, sojourner, as I explained several times, Jesus is talking about a holy subservience as opposed to titles that do not breed that kind of relationship. That is why he specifically used the terms 'father' 'teacher' and 'Rabbi." Those imply a relationship to those to whom we look for the truth. There is a reason that Jesus said not to call people those names. Do you call Satan your Father? Why/why not? If you don't, then why do you call a MAN your Holy Father? What's the difference?  I worship only ONE Father. Again, I will not give the title I give to God to ANY man. Jesus instructs us not to do that. You can do as your heart leads you. "For where your heart is, there also will be your treasure." My heart is toward my Father in heaven. You have to look inside your heart and see who rules it; men or God. Then you will know who to call your Holy Father.
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sojourner
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« Reply #84 on: May 11, 2004, 12:12:46 AM »

Heidi,

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But if you're trying to understand the meaning of my posts, then I trust you will focus on the meaning rather than looking to prove Jesus wrong.
Ah, Ah..... I am trying to understand your post. Having a difficult time until this post. Other than my very first post, I have not either attempted to give you my interpretation nor to show yours as incorrect.
All I was trying to do was get you to explain the difference between what Jesus said and what you said about it, versus other uses in the Bible of the word, Father.

This is the very first post that you have actually have the quote and your explanation together. And understand, your words, your explanation of what Christ said, is not Christ's words. They are your understanding of them.

In another post dealing with the Body and Blood of Christ you also did very well. You gave your understanding of Jesus's words. However, you do not need to constantly say, "it is Jesus' word". Anyone can quote, even the devil. It is their meaning that we are discussing. When you add your words or opinion, view, argument it is no longer Jesus' word, but your understanding of those words.

As you already know I do not agree with you. The view of that text I gave has been the view of the Apostles and has been tranmitted down for 2000 years.

Incidently, in your understanding, based on your interpretation of Jesus's words, what about the Lord's Prayer.
Jesus starts out with: "Our Father who art in Heaven,..." Why the distinction of being in Heaven. There are no fathers on earth, right?

Just something for you to think about.
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Heidi
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« Reply #85 on: May 11, 2004, 08:14:31 AM »

I figured that was your point. But when Jesus said, "Do not call anyone on earth 'father'" does he mean the cow jumped over the moon? Does he mean "do not call anyone on earth silly? does he mean "do not call anyone on earth a horse? Or does he mean do not call anyone on earth 'father'"?There is no mysterious interpretation here, Sojourner, except understanding the english language. I know some people have a hard time with the English language, but as I said many times earlier, His meaning COULD NOT BE ANY CLEARER! Eeveryday, I read his words. When I look at all of them, most of his words mean exactly what they say that even a child could understand them. If a child read the phrase, "I am the bread of life." The child would ask, "are we supposed to eat him?" The answer is yes! But adults would say, "that's impossible!" THAT IS MY WHOLE POINT!

Again, instead of believing Jesus, the first reaction of most adults is to DIBELIEVE Him, then look for hidden meanings. THAT is where distortions and misinterpretations come in! When Jesus said; "The work of God is this; to believe in the one He sent." A child would say,; Goodie! That's all I have to do!" Or, "I do." An adult would say, "no, the work of God is to love each other or go help your neighbor, or get out of sin, or any number of things. But he would not simply believe those simple words. The fact is that those simple words are ALL we have to do. HE does the rest! Good works come from the spirit. Jesus died to take awya our sins. All I have to do is confess that I don't love my neighbor and receive His forgiveness, love, and mercy, and THAT is what I give to my neighbor! It is done. IT IS FINISHED! His forgiveness inside me are the ONLY thing that produce good works! That is why they are called the fruits of the spirit, not the fruits of me!

Therefore, belief comes FIRST, and understanding will follow. If more Christians did that, then not only would there be NO disunity, misundertanding, misinterpretations, but we would KNOW that NO ONe can be snatched out of His hand! ALL we have to do is BELIEVE that. But most do not. That is why Jesus said to come to Him as little children.
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« Reply #86 on: May 11, 2004, 06:32:59 PM »

Heidi,


Quote
There is no mysterious interpretation here, Sojourner, except understanding the english language. I know some people have a hard time with the English language, but as I said many times earlier, His meaning COULD NOT BE ANY CLEARER!

I'll agree it is not mysterious. But the meaning is not clear at all based on all the confusion. It turned out it was not really what the plain meaning of the phrase was, since you finally interpreted what you thought it meant. That is not clear or self explanatory if it takes someone to interpret.

Quote
The fact is that those simple words are ALL we have to do. HE does the rest!
I believe in those simple words too. But for me they imply much more.  I need to believe. However, there are many other words in the Bible that not only imply but strongly emphasize that it is actually much more than 'just believe'.
Your words 'he does the rest', can be true if you say that what we do is through His Grace. It is all Grace but we also must cooperate.  He does not actually love your neighbor for you but He gives you power and Grace to accomplish that end. If you don't you have not used His Grace. Christians are not 'couch potatos' that we actually depend on God to fulfill his commands for us. That is not why we were created.

Quote
His forgiveness inside me are the ONLY thing that produce good works!
I don't think you will find any scripture that says this. You produce good works because of your faith and through God's Grace. Knowing we will not be perfect in this task, that we will sin, He has provided  forgiveness whereby we can continue to remain in communion with Him.  If you do not do the works of righteousness, you have no faith. Faith without works is dead, works without faith are meaningless.
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« Reply #87 on: May 11, 2004, 07:29:48 PM »

"Do not call anyone 'father' for you have only one Father and He is in heaven" is very clear. But to those who don't believe it, it took 6 pages of explanation to bring them back to the original statement! When people don't want to believe his words, they look for ANTYHING else other than His words to justify why they don't want to do what he says. Again, his words can't be any clearer! In order to prove he is telling the truth, I used his words in that whole passage to explain it. STILL people don't believe him! It shouldn't have had to be explained in the first place if people believed him to begin with.

To whom do you give credit for your good works, Sojourner, God or yourself? if you give yourself the credit, that is the sin of pride which is from the devil, not God. The fruits are called; "fruits of the SPIRIT", not the fruits from ourselves! The Holy Spirit is what brings me closer to God, not the devil. Instead of "trying" to obey Him, all we have to do is ask God for forgiveness for our sin. it is then His forgiveness, love, and mercy, that replaces our sins. then we operate out of that forgiveness instead of from our sinful nature. "Come to me and i will give you rest." "It is finished." "For I have not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it." Since we cannot obey the law, His death fulfilled it for us. Now all we have to do is come to Him. Once again, all you have to do is believe His words. Notice that he did not elaborate on the work of God. He said; "the work of God is this: to believe in the one He sent." But no, humans don't believe that. we add our own definitions to it. I believe Him. You don't have to.
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« Reply #88 on: May 11, 2004, 09:57:08 PM »

Heidi,

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But to those who don't believe it, it took 6 pages of explanation to bring them back to the original statement!
Two things, the last six pages was for no one else's benefit except yours. And now you again say that it brings us back to the original statement.
Does that mean you again want it to be an absolute statement?
If so, it contradicts your own explanation of that verse. You cannot call your human father,'father' without being in violation of that absolute statement.

What is very clear is that Jesus was not making an absolute statement because as I showed you with the texts elsewhere, the Apostles and you would be contradicting that absolute statement.
Now, it seems you have thrown everything to the winds and have gone back on what it means even for you.

I'm curious about another phrase that has caused much misinterpretion as well. Here it is I John 3:6. Do you believe this is an absolute statment.

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To whom do you give credit for your good works, Sojourner, God or yourself?
I believe I answered that but apparently my clear words need interpreting. Here it is again.
Quote
Your words 'he does the rest', can be true if you say that what we do is through His Grace. It is all Grace but we also must cooperate.

If all we need to do is to believe how do you handle texts where an action is required on our part. They are just to numerous to list here but just one will suffice. James 1:22

I do more than believe, I am following Him! Are you or do you think that He means that He is following Himself for you?

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« Reply #89 on: May 11, 2004, 10:56:30 PM »

It wasn't for my benefit at all because I already knew what that passage meant.! I believe it word for word. You do not. After I was born again of the Holy Spirit, my Father is God. Jesus never called Joseph, His father, never. The only father he referred to is his Father in heaven. John, 1:12-13, "Yet to all received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to be children of God-children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God." That's what being born again means. Ever since being born again, I have never called anyone else my father but God alone. My biggest objection to the catholic church is that they deliberately USE the name father for someone who is not even a blood relative of the people who call him father! There is NO reason to take the title "Father", much less Holy Father, especially when Jesus told us NOT to. I can understand if Christians still want to call their earthly father 'father' , although I don't condone it, but a Christian church giving a title to a religious leader (which was the context in which Jesus explains this) deliberately disobeying him is a slap in Christ's face. There is absolutely NO reason to do this. None. You don't have to believe His words but instead can give them YOUR interpretation, but i believe them exactly as they were written. I'm not the one who is interpreting them. I simply believe them. A child would take the same meaning from them that I do. He wouldn't try to twist them to fit his own agenda. There really is no point in continuing this exchange. I have explained why I believe his words. It is because people don't believe his words that there are so many miscommunications and distortions in understanding scripture. Again, "The work of God is this; to believe in the one He sent." You don't have to believe Him. You can think He should have said more than that. That's your choice. But I believe Him.  
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