True teachings vs. false teachings

[Allinall]

Soooooo I take that to mean that all you're for is stating what you are against?  NOTE TO READERS:  Heidi.  This is primarily posted to you, not those defending the beliefs you are currently attacking.  

[Heidi]

I stated what I am for in my OP.

[sojourner]

Heidi,

I would be interested to see your interpretation of the following:
I Cor 4:15-17, I Cor 10:1,  Col 3:21.  Then Col 3:21, Luke 16:24-25

in conjuction with your statement that we should call no one father.

[Heidi]

Are you trying to prove Jesus is wrong? Why? To justify your allegiance to the pope? 1Cor;, 4:15-17, Paul NEVER said to CALL him our Holy Father. He asked us to use him as a role model. I suggest you re-read that passage. 1 Cor. 10:1, of course we had forefathers! Paul is referring to worldly ancestry, not our HOLY Father. Col; again, Paul is referring to wordly ancestry. The pope is not my ancestral nor my Holy Father. He is obviously yours. The passage in Luke was a quote of the rich man talking to Abraham. Did you even read the passage in Matthew where Jesus said not to call anyone 'father'? He was talking to the teachers of the law, people who considered themselves holy and like the titles of honorable men. I already explained this in another post. Do you agree or disagree with Christ's  words? I have no qualms about not calling anyone Holy Father except for my Father in heaven. I completely agree with Jesus's words. They apparently mean nothing to you. We will never agree because we have different Fathers.

[His_child]

Are you trying to prove Jesus is wrong? Why? To justify your allegiance to the pope? 1Cor;, 4:15-17, Paul NEVER said to CALL him our Holy Father. He asked us to use him as a role model. I suggest you re-read that passage. 1 Cor. 10:1, of course we had forefathers! Paul is referring to worldly ancestry, not our HOLY Father. Col; again, Paul is referring to wordly ancestry. The pope is not my ancestral nor my Holy Father. He is obviously yours. The passage in Luke was a quote of the rich man talking to Abraham. Did you even read the passage in Matthew where Jesus said not to call anyone 'father'? He was talking to the teachers of the law, people who considered themselves holy and like the titles of honorable men. I already explained this in another post. Do you agree or disagree with Christ's  words? I have no qualms about not calling anyone Holy Father except for my Father in heaven. I completely agree with Jesus's words. They apparently mean nothing to you. We will never agree because we have different Fathers.

Rather cruel and callous statement to come up with for someone who asked you for your inturpretation of a few verses.

[Heidi]

Tell me, Justme, who is your Holy Father? Since you have more than one, it is very confusing to me whom you worship. How is that my fault? Anyone can say they worship Christ, even David Korseh and ALL false teachers. But were they put their reverence is what determines what they believe in their hearts.  "By their fruits you will recognize them." Again, how is that my fault?

[sojourner]

Heidi,

I Cor 4:15-17, I Cor 10:1,  Col 3:21.  Then  Luke 16:24-25
Not to show Christ or Jesus wrong, but to show that your understanding and interpretation is not what the Apostles taught to the early Christians.

I Cor 4:15-17

Based on your blanket interpretation of Matt 23:9 you would be immediately in conflict with Paul. Paul specifically admonished those in Cornith to call him Father.  Paul defines how he is using the term which is the same for every Bishop.

I Cor 10:1, Here Paul is not talking about ancestors in general, but the teachers, the prophets of the past. It is why we call or early Church leaders, Fathers of the Church.

Col 3:21,  I noticed you backtracked a little on your statement which was a blanket, call NO ONE on this earth your father.  This text only shows that there is no conflict in what Jesus said, which you have changed also.

Luke 16:24-25,  Again, if you would have been correct in your interpretation, I think the Angel here would have rebuked the Rich Man for calling Abraham Father. Here it is used in the 'past teacher' understanding.

Now, that we have some idea of what it does not mean. What does it actually mean.

The answer lies within the very versus surrounding the statement. Jesus is not taking issue with the particular title in and of itself.  If he where then he could have just as easily used Protestant terms of pastor or reverend.  The issue is about two critical areas of leadership,  teaching and personal character.

Jesus is speaking the the rabbis of His day, the scribes and Pharisees. He states that they started correctly sitting in the 'seat of Moses'.  It was their responsibility to preserve that tradition faithfully and pass it on. Instead of passing this sacred tradition with its true meaning, interpretation,  they would add their own, thus this error was also passed down. Thus Jesus is saying that the Mosiac Tradition was made of no effect with all the changes and additions. Jesus rebuked them 'for laying aside the commandment of God, you hold to the traditions of men...", "making the word of God of no effect..."
Then Jesus turning to the Apostles said to them, "But you, do not be called Rabbi'. Or, not to use their positions as teachers as an opportunity to build their own tradition and a personal following, thus making the deposit of faith of no effect. Christ is their ONLY teacher.  This is what the Aposbles have done and succeeding generations since.
By the way, you are correct is pointing out that the Pope, his person and title is in violation of this command. However, you  have been an unwitting disciple of it as well.

[Gracey]

Tell me, Justme, who is your Holy Father? Since you have more than one, it is very confusing to me whom you worship. How is that my fault? Anyone can say they worship Christ, even David Korseh and ALL false teachers. But were they put their reverence is what determines what they believe in their hearts. "By their fruits you will recognize them." Again, how is that my fault?

Sorry to get in your way Justme, but this, I believe should be addressed.

Heidi, just what are the "fruits" we are speaking of here? The fruit of the spirit?

Gal 5:22  But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23  meekness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Gal 5:24  But those belonging to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
Gal 5:25  If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26  Let us not become glory-seeking, provoking one another, envying one another.

If so, it would do us well to look first at our own fruits. I am quite sure we all fall short. Please, dear - try to have a little more patience (long-suffering) when posting your replies and quit yelling at peeps. Your zeal is admirable...but it does not, obviously, yet make you perfect. Let us not provoke one another, but love one another.

In Christ
Gracey

[Heidi]

I am not only tired of being chastized for posting that we should worship Christ from our hearts first, but also frustrated because so many  "Christian" responders want to mock this very basic principle. I expect this kind of mocking from unbelievers because they do not agree that Jesus is the only way to God. But from "professed" Christians? Jesus was very firm and sometimes harsh with His words because He wanted to tell the truth before He wanted the praises of men. He even said,"How long must I put up with you?" I am simply a human being, not NEAR the level of Christ. Why should I expect more of myself than what Jesus Himself was able to handle?

[Gracey]

I am not only tired of being chastized for posting that we should worship Christ from our hearts first,

I was not chastizing you (and certainly not for posting that we should worship Christ), only reminding you that we are required of Christ to be long-suffering. Consider how long-suffering God is with us.

It would serve HIM better if you try first to weigh your response to those who frustrate you with His love, His kindness and His patience. There are some who will bear no convincing no matter what you say, or how black and white the bible says it is....but what better way to show what Christ taught than by doing it? Remember when Christ sent his disciples out to the towns and cities? He told them that if the people wouldn't hear them, then move on.... "shake the dust of them off your feet". Sometimes you just have to.

At any rate, letting your frustration take hold of you harms Christ more than anyone else. This I learned, sadly, from experience.

Most certainly, this is something we should all do (note, I use the terms we and us because I do not exclude myself from this).

Consider how a response might look to someone who doesn't know Christ at all....try to see what they might see. Would it serve to draw them in, to help them want to know about Him? Or would they think we are a bunch of pithy quarrelers?

peace
Gracey

[Heidi]

I understand that, Gracey. I also understand that if we were all perfect and without sin, there would be no miscommunications. I can be NO better than Christ. My frustration at the catholic church was similar to Christ's when the temple was being used as a den of thieves. My frustration at the lack of understanding by Christians of the basic principles of Christianity is the same as Christ's was at His disciples. I have endured MUCH mocking for standing up for believing Christ alone. I endure more and more all the time without frstration but I am still only a human being. I don't justify it but I am forgiven for it. Can you forgive me for it also?

[Gracey]

I don't justify it but I am forgiven for it. Can you forgive me for it also?

Naturally so; we are charge with forgiving others as we have already been forgiven. Not one of us is perfect and we all "lose it" sometimes. It's more what we do once we've realized that....how we handle it. Do we allow the spirit to take over, or ourselves?

And of course we are human, and certainly not better than Christ. We must remember that although he had a righteous anger, it occurred seldom. That's a lot harder for us, in our "flesh"; but it becomes easier when we allow the spirit to work in us. We will never be perfect, dear, til we stand at His throne.

Certainly, keep on teaching of Christ; remember, though that there is a time to quit; to just say "we disagree" but since Christ loves us both (mistakes and all) we can at least have peace.

may His light shine upon you.

Gracey

[His_child]

Tell me, Justme, who is your Holy Father? Since you have more than one, it is very confusing to me whom you worship. How is that my fault? Anyone can say they worship Christ, even David Korseh and ALL false teachers. But were they put their reverence is what determines what they believe in their hearts.  "By their fruits you will recognize them." Again, how is that my fault?

Your attacks are getting tiring.

I'm sorry that I don't fit into your nice little box of what a Christian is.
I'll probably never fit into your box, but that is ok. Christ is the only one I need to please.

With all the threads you start on Catholicism, I'm beginning to think that you spend more time focusing on the Catholic church than the Catholics do.
I thought our focus was supposed to be Christ.

I detest the teachings of the Catholic church. However, if I said there were no Christians in the Catholic faith- I'd be a liar!

My very favorite female Gospel singer is a Catholic.
She has been involved in jail ministries, helping the homeless, women's ministries and I use some of the tools that she offers in her pro-life ministry.
You can judge her fruit by reading her books, listening to her songs, etc and you will find that she is a born-again Christian.
Her name is Kathy Troccoli and she is a Christian who attends a Catholic church.

[His_child]

Tell me, Justme, who is your Holy Father? Since you have more than one, it is very confusing to me whom you worship. How is that my fault? Anyone can say they worship Christ, even David Korseh and ALL false teachers. But were they put their reverence is what determines what they believe in their hearts.  "By their fruits you will recognize them." Again, how is that my fault?

I find it interesting that you never questioned my Christianity until you found out that I don't follow your Calvinistic beliefs.

[Heidi]

Sojourner, as i've explained before, in 1 Co., 4:15-17, Paul is explaining why people should believe him and imitate him. He NEVER asked anyone to call him "Father" which is a title. He was only trying to show them that his interpretations come from Christ alone. So far. NO ONE has addressed Christ's words on this. Why did he say that? Can anyone answer that question here? Does anyone care what Jesus means? Or are they simply looking to justfiy the catholic church? Which is it?

In 1 Co., 10:1. Paul called them BROTHERS. I take this to mean that he saw himself as their brothers.

Again, if we don't know Jesus's words FIRST, then there are as many different interpretations of the bible as there are people who read it. True teachings DO NOT CONTRADICT Jesus's words. I do NOT see a contradiction between Paul and Jesus's words here at all. Paul never asked to be called 'father'. He is the father of the gospel just as Freud is the father of modern psychology. But neither of them asks us to call them our Father, much less our Holy Father. Jesus speicifically asks us NOT, I repeat, NOT to do that. It could NOT be any clearer!!!! Jesus is referring to a TITLE that is reserved for ONE, I repeat, ONE and He is in heaven. But nevertheless, he is ignored in  favor of the catholic church. Therefore, there is MUCH confusion as to who is the Holy Father of the catholic's which is ONE big reason why Jesus asked us not to do that. The same title is given to 2 people instead of one. In my heart, I can never call ANYONE my Holy Father excpet God alone because He deserves a title which NO OTHER MAN deserves! How again, is it my fault if I don't know which Holy Father the catholics are worshiping? they have the same title.