One Father who is in heaven

[aw]

If God has called you to stay in the RCC in order to win others to the Lord, then stay there, but otherwise run as far away as you can and and as fast as possible. aw

aw:

I agree with the bulk of your post, but your counsel regarding God calling someone to remain in Babylon does not jibe with Scripture.  God specifically commands those who are in Babylon to "COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM AND BE YE SEPARATE, AND TOUCH NOT THE UNCLEAN THING" (2 Cor. 6:17).

There is such a thing as "ecclesiastical separation", and we should be separated from those who teach false doctrine and commit false practice. The dogmas of Rome are false from start to finish, but they do wear a very Christian garb, "and no marvel, for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light".

Good point. I was just thinking of "Let those who are slaves remain as such, etc.," and "To the Jew I became a Jew" so as to WIN SOME. I have known a couple of folks who stayed in the catholic church after true salvation with the idea that they would lead them out of that organization.

Your words are true and we are not to be unequally yoked, etc.

Thanx,

aw

[Heidi]

Ebia, you have consistently shown that you defend the catholic church more than you defend Christ Himself. That is a classic response from a cult member. I suggest you look to Christ's words for answers instead of the cult doctrine to which you adhere. When talking about His sheep, Jesus said "no one can snatch them out of my hand." The catholic church disagrees with Him. They also disagree with Him that no one should call anyone on earth 'father'. They also disagree with Him that few will be saved because they've baptized billions of people. They also disagree with Him when He said that we will be persecuted because of Him. The pope is revered by more people in the world than any other leader. There are many more beliefs they endorse that do not agree with Christ's words. But who is Jesus? They certainly do not think much of Jesus but they sure do consider the pope infallible!  This is classic idol worship which is what makes up a cult.

[aw]

Getting a bit personal here, but I think it gets back to the scriptural definition of the "CHURCH!" It has nothing in this world to do with catholocism or even protestantism. CHRSITIANITY, for information, is the BODY of Christ which includes ALL who have believed in Him for salvation.

I have read through the catechism  enough that I found out it to be both full of error and ascriptural. From that publication comes such blasphemous announcements as papal infallibility, the veneration of Mary, and explicitly that there is no salvation available outside of membership in the catholic church.

Concerning  the scanadals rampant in the catholic church- it is RAMPANT and they suspect over 30,000 cases that have not gone to court as of this date. To charge all denoinations as being equally guilty is without any support whatsoever. Of course, there are always tares among the wheat, but castholocism is particularly heinous.

aw

[aw]

The very fact that I was banned shows me that they consider it blasphemous No it doesn't.  It proves they felt you were out of order in the subject matter you chose or the way to discussed it. Catholics are well aware that the Pope is just a human being, albeit one in a very special office.

aw: Special office? It is not to be found in scripture. The ccc #889, in opposition to scripture, states that the pope is the Magisterium of the church and that Christ confers upon this mere man a portion of His own infallibility. # 890, 891 contain further fallacies inherent in the ccc. If I were a catholic priest, I would prefer to be addressed as "BROTHER" as that is a more appropriate title.

aw

[Heidi]

Right on, Aw! I liked your suggestion about going to the church to lead people to Christ. But I'm very afraid of the clergy in the catholic church. The fact that I was banned from their forum (the only forum from which I've ever been banned) shows the control with which they try to exert to perpetuate their false beliefs. Nevertheless, it's the only idea I can comes up with...other than posting a list of grievances on their doors for which I would be arrested. I'm not ready to do that yet. Luther indeed had courage! However, I don't worship Luther either. He was a reformist who gave people the chance to form a relationship with Christ Himself. For that, we have God to thank for everything comes from Him. Praise be to God!

[Corpus]

Heidi,

Are you really shocked for having been banned from such a forum? You walked into a Cathlolic forum, accused the Catholics and their faith of being blasphemous, and then express incredulity for having been banned?

To lend some perspective, Catholicism teaches that much of Protestantism is heresy, a pretty strong word. Now I could spend my days on this forum ranting about protestant heretics, but it likely wouldn't accomplish much and probably get me banned. Should I then get upset over such a decision? No.

If one wishes to enter another's house, be prepared to respect their customs.

[Heidi]

I agree with you about Protestant churches also. But the pope is considered to be head of the church in general instead of Christ. I just watched a 3 hour documentary on the papacy last night on A&E where they talked about the infallibility of the pope. It showed the monstrous church of the vatican decorated in the same splendor that the Jews decorated the temple. When Christ died, the temple curtain tore in half because Christ Himself replaced the temple. Paul warned us of many false teachers and indeed there are.

I was shocked at being banned because at the website the catholics said they were interested in hearing the truth rather than just their doctrine. I made the mistake of believing them. I won't do it again.  I don't know about you, but when someone offends my Lord and Savior, especially when it comes from the church itself, you better believe that i will speak up for Him. The very fact that i was banned showed that they considered any insinuation that the pope was a mere human being to be blasphemy. They then must see him as God. That is indeed blasphemy! The fact that they defend the pope more than Christ Himself shows who they really worship. Apparently, they think they are above being called to account. That is, of course, the sin of pride. "He exhalts himself will be humbled and he who humbles himself will be exhalted." There is no free speech in the catholic church. It very much discourages that. That speaks for itself.

[Heidi]

Well, I just ried to access the open website on catholicism and found out that i am not authorized to do so.! This is just an information page where listings of anything dealing with catholicism is open to the public. Any one of you could access that page, PROVIDED you believe in the infallibilty of the pope. I'm beginning to be truly frightened. I feel like I'm in Nazi Germany. Where is this coming from?

[ebia]

Ebia, you have consistently shown that you defend the catholic church more than you defend Christ Himself.

A moments thought would have revealed that there are few attacks on Christ here, and plenty of defendents, but many unchristian attacks on the RCC and its members.

That is a classic response from a cult member. I suggest you look to Christ's words for answers instead of the cult doctrine to which you adhere.

Just in case youv'e forgotten, I'm not Catholic and I don't "adhere to their doctrine."

When talking about His sheep, Jesus said "no one can snatch them out of my hand." The catholic church disagrees with Him.

Dealt with perfectly adequately by Michael in other threads.

They also disagree with Him that no one should call anyone on earth 'father'.

Dealt with perfectly adequately in other threads.

They also disagree with Him that few will be saved because they've baptized billions of people.

Do you want few to be saved?  I know some people want to feel 'special' in that way, but its very sad.  If you're interested in debating this one (which I dont think is covered elsewhere) then I'm happy to have a shot, but the fact that you're ignoring threads where other of points are addressed indicates that you're only interested in attacking blindly.

They also disagree with Him when He said that we will be persecuted because of Him.

No they don't.

The pope is revered by more people in the world than any other leader.

And?   In reality though, while JPII is admirable man of God, its the office that holds the respect, not the man.

There are many more beliefs they endorse that do not agree with Christ's words. But who is Jesus?

There's not one that disagrees with Jesus' words, only with your interpretation of Jesus' words.

They certainly do not think much of Jesus

You clearly don't know many Catholics very well.

but they sure do consider the pope infallible!

No, they consider certain statements made by the Pope - those that are made ex-cathedra (which are few and far between) to be infallible.  Everything else the Pope does is as fallible as anyone else.

 

This is classic idol worship which is what makes up a cult.

You seem to be under the impression that Catholics go on and on about the Pope all the time, and barely mention Christ.   I can assure you that is the complete opposite of the truth.  I teach in a Catholic school, and I've never heard the Pope mentioned once in the school setting, and only once in the diocesan context refering to something particularly relevent that he said during his visit to Australia in 1995.

Right on, Aw! I liked your suggestion about going to the church to lead people to Christ. But I'm very afraid of the clergy in the catholic church. The fact that I was banned from their forum (the only forum from which I've ever been banned) shows the control with which they try to exert to perpetuate their false beliefs.

Blackeyedpeas might be interested to know that the fact that he bans certain topics from discussion on this forum proves he is perpetuating false beliefs.

Well, I just ried to access the open website on catholicism and found out that i am not authorized to do so.! This is just an information page where listings of anything dealing with catholicism is open to the public. Any one of you could access that page, PROVIDED you believe in the infallibilty of the pope. I'm beginning to be truly frightened. I feel like I'm in Nazi Germany. Where is this coming from?

Hang on a minute.  A website is only as public as the owners wish it to be - they are not obliged to give you a forum to attack them and their faith. If you walk into a private club then you have to abide by the rules of the club, just as the posters here have abide by the rules of ChristiansUnite.  To compare this to Nazi Germany just makes you look paranoid. There is plenty of freely accessable information on the RCC in the public domain.

I was shocked at being banned because at the website the catholics said they were interested in hearing the truth rather than just their doctrine. I made the mistake of believing them. I won't do it again.  

Did you go in there saying, "I believe you are wrong about ... because ..." and engage in a reasoned debate, listening to their counter arguments and responding appropriately and politely,  or did you go in blindly attacking that which you don't even understand as you do here?

The very fact that i was banned showed that they considered any insinuation that the pope was a mere human being to be blasphemy.

No it doesn't.  It shows they considered you to be offensive and not a positive contributor to their forum.  Your suggestion of why they considered you to be that is unsupported supposition.

Apparently, they think they are above being called to account.

What makes you think you can call them to account when you don't even understand what you are talking about?

When an atheist comes in here attacking Christianity without understanding it and carrying on like you do, he gets pretty short shrift from the moderator (and everyone else) and gets banned pretty quickly, and rightly so.  Does that prove Christianity is wrong - no.  It doesn't prove anything at all except that the poster broke the rules of the forum.



Perhaps you might like to tell us which forum you are talking about.

[darby]

it seems idolatrous to revere anyone but God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.  the NT is chock full of warnings against idolatry.  Be confident that God knows all of our hearts, and will judge every man in the end.

[ebia]

it seems idolatrous to revere anyone but God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.  the NT is chock full of warnings against idolatry.  Be confident that God knows all of our hearts, and will judge every man in the end.

Worship is reserved for God, but there is clearly a level of respect due to those who do a better than average job of following His will down here.  Reverence is nothing more than respect or honour in a religious context, and we are clearly told to respect certain people.

If you choose to redefine reverence, veneration, etc, as worship and then condemn it you are twisting the meaning of those words as used by Catholics, and attacking a straw man.

[darby]

I'm not entirely sure of the degree of reverence people have for the pope, but I do get the impression that some think that he is some kind of intermediary between man and God.  Respect is one thing, worshipful reverence is another.

[ebia]

I'm not entirely sure of the degree of reverence people have for the pope, but I do get the impression that some think that he is some kind of intermediary between man and God.  Respect is one thing, worshipful reverence is another.

In my experience most Catholics don't give a second thought to the Pope most of the time, let alone worship.

I repeat, reverence does not imply worship, however much you may want it to.

[aw]

I think most believers are concerned that what is proclaimed in the RCC does NOT lead to biblical salvation. The cccatechism declares that Mary is essential to salvation. It further declares that one must be water baptized as a member of that organization, etc. etc. In a typical Rosary Mary is prayed to 10 times more than our High Prist, the Lord Jesus Christ!

It is not the people who have been duped into believing those heresies that believers have disdain for, but on the contrary, it is because of agape love for them that we wish for them to be set free from the bondages of that organization.

aw

[ebia]

I think most believers are concerned that what is proclaimed in the RCC does NOT lead to biblical salvation.

I'm saved by Christ, not by the Bible.

The cccatechism declares that Mary is essential to salvation.

AFAIK, (not having a catechism to hand), it says Mary played an essential role in salvation - which she did.  Without Mary's acceptance of God's role for her, Christ would not have been born.

It further declares that one must be water baptized as a member of that organization, etc. etc.

Which is not unscriptual.  Or was Philip acting unscripturally?  Water baptism isn't essential, btw, its normative.

In a typical Rosary Mary is prayed to 10 times more than our High Prist, the Lord Jesus Christ!

Which might be a problem if it were the only prayer someone said, but it shouldn't be, and isn't intended to be.  As I've said, I work in a Catholic school where prayer is frequent and I've yet to come across one not directed directly to one or all of the Trinity.

It is not the people who have been duped into believing those heresies that believers have disdain for, but on the contrary, it is because of agape love for them that we wish for them to be set free from the bondages of that organization.

So far you haven't identified a single heresy that the RCC is guilty of, but revealed the depth of your misundertanding of Catholic theology and practice.  You characature the Catholic understanding, and then attack that straw man.