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Author Topic: Eternal Security Of The Believer  (Read 12131 times)
Everyday Newborn
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« Reply #75 on: March 31, 2004, 09:53:27 AM »

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...STILL GOING...

Done?  Good!  Now you see my point!  Ok, maybe not, but here's the gist: we lose our chance of reward - not our salvation.  We run the great risk of standing before He Who gave His very life for us, having accepted that gift, having that gift as the foundation of our lives, and having built squat upon it.  We run the risk of offering back to Him wood, hay and straw, rather than the precious truths that He died to teach us.  In the end, it boils down to us choosing self over Him.  And we would stand before Him, with nothing to cast at His feet.  We possess only the blessed blood that saved us.  We are the servant that took the talent and buried it.  We've gained nothing.  But, "...he himself will be saved."
See answer from AJ  Wink

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And this is the point man!  We lose fellowship - not relationship.  Why then did God sacrifice His Son for us?  That question reminds me alot of "...we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation?" Why, oh why would we neglect so great a salvation?  Not lose it, not give it up.  Rather neglect it by counting that fellowship as meaningless.
So the consequence of sin is broken fellowship only and not a broken relationship?  Again it brings me back to the question of is it okay to sin then because all we'll lose is fellowship and not relationship?

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I would contend brother that God made everything, us included, for His glory:

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everyone who is called by my name,
   whom I created for my glory,
   whom I formed and made."

Isaiah 43:7

...and...

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Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Revelation 4:11
What was the glory and pleasure?

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Our salvation, our conformation, our very lives are for His glory.   Smiley
Agreed, and Amen.  But see question above.

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Nope!  It will be filled with people who do.  Here's a question you haven't considered for your position.  How do we know we love God?
You said you know I've addressed this, but I will answer this again.
"We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands."  1 Jhn 2:3
"But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did." 1 Jhn 2:5-6
"Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us."  1 Jhn 3:24
"This is love for God: to obey his commands."  1 Jhn 5:3
"If you love me, you will obey what I command." Jhn 14:15
"Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching." Jhn 14:23
"He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me."  Jhn 14:24

If you love God in your heart, you will desire to do what he commands.  Notice there is a theme with those scriptures which is 'know', 'love', and 'obey'.

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And everytime we fail to obey, do we then fall away and lose our salvation because we don't love Him?  Where's the line?  I do know that you've addressed this, I'm just asking where the line of stubbling becomes a falling in your eyes.
It is not my eyes, and I am not the judge of man.  God judges the heart, and he will decide when that line is because he is God, not me.  All I know is that the scriptures teach that it is possible to lose your salvation that we must continue to work out, and it is also possible to know that we're in his love and doing his will from the few scriptures above.

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Not talking reconciling brother.  That's a done deal.  I'm talking about being perfected and sanctified.  What does that mean?
But notice it says 'being' perfected and sanctified, meaning it's not complete.  It's a process of being made holy, resulting in eternal life.

Take care, and God bless.
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Pr. 3:5-7
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways acknowledge him,
    and he will make your paths straight.
Do not be wise in your own eyes;
    fear the LORD and shun evil.
Allinall
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« Reply #76 on: March 31, 2004, 10:01:01 AM »

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Mat 25:28  Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
Mat 25:29  For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

And we know without a doubt, because of the plethora of verses stating verbatim that you can lose your salvation (as opposed to the plethora of verses that do state verbatim that you cannot) that that which was taken away from this servant was, in fact, his salvation.  Hmmmmm...

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I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown

Revelations 3:11

He was given a "crown" but did nothing with it but bury it.  That was taken away from him.  Conjecture, I know.  But it holds more weight than a doctrine, my friends, not supported by scripture as a whole.

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Mat 25:30  And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 25:30  And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Cast out into outer darkness, with weeping and gnashing of teeth.  Definitely Hell.  Absolutely.  Unless...

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For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.  Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.  If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.  If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15

...it isn't Hellfire he suffers.  But the burning of his worthless, selfish fruits here, "though he himself will be saved."
Where's the explanation of this one?  Smiley  I hope I don't sound upset or argumentative.  I'm not, and I am discussing this with good natured love my friends.

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Saved is he??

I think it may be time to rethink some of this

Saved he is!!

I think it may be time to rethink some of this.   Smiley
« Last Edit: March 31, 2004, 10:04:15 AM by Allinall » Logged



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Allinall
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« Reply #77 on: March 31, 2004, 10:33:00 AM »

BTW, before I forget...yup!  I did mean Philippians 2:12!  Thanks for catching my faulty old memory!   Cheesy

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So the consequence of sin is broken fellowship only and not a broken relationship?  Again it brings me back to the question of is it okay to sin then because all we'll lose is fellowship and not relationship?

The problem here my friend, is that you believe there to be a need for a judgment, rather than a consequence for your sin now.  And guess what?  There was a judgment.  Jesus took it all upon Himself.  You would agree.  But you do not believe that to be a sufficient act, as you must do your part to maintain what He perfected.  Is it ok to sin?  Listen to Paul's very answer to that very question in two different passages:

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"All things are lawful for me," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful for me," but I will not be enslaved by anything.

1 Corinthians 6:12

All things.  Not some things.  Not all things but those things denounced in the Law.  All.  Everything.  So, we can then sin to our hearts content right?

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What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?  By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

Romans 6:1-2

We do not live in sinful practice as we've been freed from sin's penalty of death by Jesus sufficient sacrifice.  We are being freed from sin's power through our obedient response to the working of the Holy Spirit, via the word of God in our lives.

My friend, truly, this doesn't hurt me that you don't believe this doctrine.  I mean really!  You are striving to maintain that which was bought and paid for in full, for all time, for you... by doing what?  Obeying God and growing closer to Him.  And how exactly is that bad?  Smiley  The part that saddens me is that you, and those like you, live in fear.  You may argue that, but it's true.  You must "work out your own salvation" with fear and trembling as you believe you may lose God's gift, when the working spoken of there isn't for security, but sanctification.  It's yours.  Work it dog!  Ok.  That's my paraphrase, but you see my point.   Cheesy  So why then the fear and trembling?  "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."  If we neglect so great a salvation, we neglect the blessed sanctification granted us in the here and now.  And any "talent" we've been given, we lose..."though (we ourselves) are saved."  What's more, you live oblivious to the reality of a "joy unspeakable and full of glory."  It's hard to have joy in what can be forsaken and lost.  It's hard to have joy when you spend you time fearing the potential failure you may succumb to.

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Take care, and God bless.

You too bro!   Smiley
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« Reply #78 on: March 31, 2004, 10:43:16 AM »

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Cast out into outer darkness, with weeping and gnashing of teeth.  Definitely Hell.  Absolutely.  Unless...
With this verse, there is no 'unless'.

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For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.  Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.  If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.  If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15

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...it isn't Hellfire he suffers.  But the burning of his worthless, selfish fruits here, "though he himself will be saved."
Where's the explanation of this one?  Smiley
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Doesn't this mean works that were done of ourselves, verses those done for the glory of God and the rewards that will be given for both?  Those that were done of ourselves will mean nothing and will be burned up and no rewards will be given for those.  The works that were done for the glory of God will be rewarded.

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I hope I don't sound upset or argumentative.  I'm not, and I am discussing this with good natured love my friends.
I didn't think so at all, and because you don't get upset it has been an absolute pleasure to discuss this with you. Smiley

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Saved he is!!

I disagree, because the "outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.", is Hell.  And this was a 'servant', believers are servants of Christ so this is talking about a believer who did nothing that his Master commanded, thus he was thrown into darkness.

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I think it may be time to rethink some of this.   Smiley
I agree.

God bless
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Pr. 3:5-7
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways acknowledge him,
    and he will make your paths straight.
Do not be wise in your own eyes;
    fear the LORD and shun evil.
Allinall
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« Reply #79 on: March 31, 2004, 11:06:44 AM »

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Cast out into outer darkness, with weeping and gnashing of teeth.  Definitely Hell.  Absolutely.  Unless...
 
With this verse, there is no 'unless'.

Nope!  There isn't!  There's also no verbatim statement that this is in reference to losing salvation.  There is inference.  And that doesn't match up with the remainder of scripture.  The unless, BTW, was to denote that your interpretation, I believe, is wrong.  You have to add that thought.  It doesn't state that.

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Doesn't this mean works that were done of ourselves, verses those done for the glory of God and the rewards that will be given for both?  Those that were done of ourselves will mean nothing and will be burned up and no rewards will be given for those.  The works that were done for the glory of God will be rewarded.

Yes!  But the point is that it is the works that are burned.  Not the worker.  If the worker works to himself, and doesn't obey God, his works will burn..."though he himself will be saved."  I know I keep pushing that last part, but that last part keeps getting pushed away.  Smiley

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I didn't think so at all, and because you don't get upset it has been an absolute pleasure to discuss this with you.

Seeeeee?  Speaking the truth in love!  I'm speaking truth lovingly and you're responding falsely...BUT IN LOVE!!!  *L* Sorry.  Had to say it!   Cheesy

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I disagree, because the "outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.", is Hell.  And this was a 'servant', believers are servants of Christ so this is talking about a believer who did nothing that his Master commanded, thus he was thrown into darkness.

Gotta ask this: and where does it say that it is Hell?  Verbatim.  Because, my friend, if it doesn't, it's interpretation.  And that interpretation...get ready, cause here comes another repeated statement I like... Grin ...doesn't agree with the remainder of the scriptures.

Go.  Think amongst yourself.  Ok.  Works better if there's a group of ya, but you get the idea.   Cheesy
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« Reply #80 on: March 31, 2004, 11:41:58 AM »

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BTW, before I forget...yup!  I did mean Philippians 2:12!  Thanks for catching my faulty old memory!   Cheesy
Not a problem. Wink

Quote
The problem here my friend, is that you believe there to be a need for a judgment, rather than a consequence for your sin now.  And guess what?  There was a judgment.  Jesus took it all upon Himself.  You would agree.  But you do not believe that to be a sufficient act, as you must do your part to maintain what He perfected.  Is it ok to sin?  Listen to Paul's very answer to that very question in two different passages:

Quote
"All things are lawful for me," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful for me," but I will not be enslaved by anything.

1 Corinthians 6:12

All things.  Not some things.  Not all things but those things denounced in the Law.  All.  Everything.  So, we can then sin to our hearts content right?

Quote
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?  By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

Romans 6:1-2

We do not live in sinful practice as we've been freed from sin's penalty of death by Jesus sufficient sacrifice.  We are being freed from sin's power through our obedient response to the working of the Holy Spirit, via the word of God in our lives.
Quote
Jesus' act on the cross was and is sufficient.  What I believe the scriptures to teach is that there are circumstances that can evolve that is resulting in the lose of one's salvation.

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My friend, truly, this doesn't hurt me that you don't believe this doctrine.  I mean really!  You are striving to maintain that which was bought and paid for in full, for all time, for you... by doing what?  Obeying God and growing closer to Him.  And how exactly is that bad?  Smiley
I'm striving to do what he commanded us to do to the best of my ability, which is all he asks.

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The part that saddens me is that you, and those like you, live in fear.  You may argue that, but it's true.
I don't live in fear when it comes to salvation, because in this discussion I have not had much opportunity to talk about God's grace and mercy.  I've mentioned it a few times in past posts, but I will mention it again here and it goes back to the distinction I was making.  I am a believer and yet will stumble here and there, but my hearts desire is to do what God commanded and strive for perfection.  Knowing that I'm not perfect, I don't live in fear of losing my salvation when I stumble, because God's grace and mercy run deep for those whose hearts remain with him.  Any fear I have is his discipline for when I do stumble, because I know his discipline won't be fun, but it's out of love. Smiley

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You must "work out your own salvation" with fear and trembling as you believe you may lose God's gift, when the working spoken of there isn't for security, but sanctification.  It's yours.  Work it dog!  Ok.  That's my paraphrase, but you see my point.   Cheesy  So why then the fear and trembling?  "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."  If we neglect so great a salvation, we neglect the blessed sanctification granted us in the here and now.
Again, being perfected and sanctified is a process, not completed here and now.

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And any "talent" we've been given, we lose..."though (we ourselves) are saved."
You are combining two different scriptures that are not talking about the same thing.  One is a 'servant' who is thrown into utter darkness where there will be wheeping and knashing of teeth.  The other is our works and the rewards that will be given.

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What's more, you live oblivious to the reality of a "joy unspeakable and full of glory."  It's hard to have joy in what can be forsaken and lost.  It's hard to have joy when you spend you time fearing the potential failure you may succumb to.
Again, as of my answer above, there is no fear of failure when I have a willing spirit even though I know I won't be perfect.  My joy is in knowing his grace and mercy covers me all the days of my life, as I strive for perfection and obey his commands to the best of my ability and remain in his love.  Anyone who understands this will see that there is no need for fear, and there is much joy in being in the Father's love.
But what saddens me about the doctrine of once saved always saved, is that it can be taken as there are no consequences for sins, thus lead people to continue their way and not have to feel like they have to be obedient.  What fruit would they bare?  What kind of witness would they be?  What kind of relationship would they have with God?

Again, as I stated way back in one of my first posts on this thread, is I do believe in eternal security for those whose hearts remain with God.  We've discussed this, and we know where each other stands.  Is there much more to discuss?
 
God bless.
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Pr. 3:5-7
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways acknowledge him,
    and he will make your paths straight.
Do not be wise in your own eyes;
    fear the LORD and shun evil.
Allinall
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« Reply #81 on: March 31, 2004, 12:12:34 PM »

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Again, as of my answer above, there is no fear of failure when I have a willing spirit even though I know I won't be perfect.  My joy is in knowing his grace and mercy covers me all the days of my life, as I strive for perfection and obey his commands to the best of my ability and remain in his love.  Anyone who understands this will see that there is no need for fear, and there is much joy in being in the Father's love.

Yes there is joy my friend!  But the unspeakable joy is found in understanding the unmerited depth of that love.   Smiley

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But what saddens me about the doctrine of once saved always saved, is that it can be taken as there are no consequences for sins, thus lead people to continue their way and not have to feel like they have to be obedient.  What fruit would they bare?  What kind of witness would they be?  What kind of relationship would they have with God?

Can be.  That is why Paul warns us not to.  I know many who hold to the Calvinistic predestination as their personal license to sin!  But that's not me.  You and I live obedient (as best we can) lives following Christ, with a desire to know Him more and more each day.  You live with a belief that if your heart goes astray, that you can lose what He has given you, but won't so long as you keep your heart for God.  

I live with the belief that if my heart goes astray, like the Great Shepherd He is, He will find me, and if need be, break me, hold me, teach me, love me, nuture me, and free me from the sinful mind that lead me to stray in the first place, by renewing my mind with His word.  If I live knowing He's my Shepherd...why would I willingly live in sin because I have fire insurance?  I wouldn't.  Rather, I live with a desire to hear "Well done thou good and faithful servant" from He Who bought me with His life's blood, paying for my sin and offering that payment to me, an undeserving sinner.  When my works are tried with fire, I want His to remain.  I want there to be His works to remain.  And I know, as sure as I know Whom I have believed, that when I stand in tears for the lack of what I could have accomplished in life had I died to myselfish desires, that it will be He Who wipes those tears away.  Not because I'm crying for a hard life here, but because of the failures that I've had here.  That's my God.  That's the God the bible teaches us about throughout.  That's the God that in the passages interpreted as being judgmental for sins already paid for, is misunderstood.  And yes, that's the God Who inspite of such misunderstandings and many, many others that we all have, loves us, nurtures us, holds us, breaks and builds us as we obey Him.  That, is what I know of my God.  That's the relationship I have with my God.  Smiley

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Again, as I stated way back in one of my first posts on this thread, is I do believe in eternal security for those whose hearts remain with God.  We've discussed this, and we know where each other stands.  Is there much more to discuss?

I'd question the heart thing brother, but we've beat this dead horse a few times too many.   Cheesy  And yes.  There's always more to discuss...just perhaps elsewhere.

Christ's,

Kevin
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« Reply #82 on: March 31, 2004, 12:17:20 PM »

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Nope!  There isn't!  There's also no verbatim statement that this is in reference to losing salvation.  There is inference.  And that doesn't match up with the remainder of scripture.
It matches pefectly with the correct interpretation, of which you do not have my friend.

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Yes!  But the point is that it is the works that are burned.  Not the worker.  If the worker works to himself, and doesn't obey God, his works will burn..."though he himself will be saved."  I know I keep pushing that last part, but that last part keeps getting pushed away.  Smiley
In our life we will do works that are of ourselves, and those that are for the glory of God.  Those done for the glory of God will receive rewards.  Those we do of ourselves will be burned away but we will be saved.

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Seeeeee?  Speaking the truth in love!  I'm speaking truth lovingly and you're responding falsely...BUT IN LOVE!!!  *L* Sorry.  Had to say it!   Cheesy
As I feel the same way about you. Wink

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Gotta ask this: and where does it say that it is Hell?  Verbatim.  Because, my friend, if it doesn't, it's interpretation.  And that interpretation...get ready, cause here comes another repeated statement I like... Grin ...doesn't agree with the remainder of the scriptures.
You're joking right?  There are numerous passages spoken by Jesus himself, where he's talking about the kingdom of heaven, and then those who will be thrown out into darkness where there will be weeping and knashing of teeth.  Besides, Jesus will be our light, so if we're in darkness, is that heaven?  Will there be weeping and knashing of teeth in heaven?  Come on, this is milk!  If you would like me to list the scriptures, I will do so for you.  Let me know brother.

God bless
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Pr. 3:5-7
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways acknowledge him,
    and he will make your paths straight.
Do not be wise in your own eyes;
    fear the LORD and shun evil.
Allinall
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« Reply #83 on: March 31, 2004, 12:29:06 PM »

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You're joking right?  There are numerous passages spoken by Jesus himself, where he's talking about the kingdom of heaven, and then those who will be thrown out into darkness where there will be weeping and knashing of teeth.  Besides, Jesus will be our light, so if we're in darkness, is that heaven?  Will there be weeping and knashing of teeth in heaven?  Come on, this is milk!  If you would like me to list the scriptures, I will do so for you.  Let me know brother.

God bless

Yup.  There are.  So either Jesus taught opposite of the Law, and the remainder of the New Testament, or the Law and the New Testament taught differently from Jesus.  Sound confusing?  It should!  Because the bible doesn't teach this doctrine.  We come to these passages and misunderstand them because we do not understand what Jesus did on the cross.  Yup!  This is milk!  "Jesus died on the cross for my sins" doesn't get any milkier!  It's the message of God's love and grace that a lost and dying sinner can understand by it's simplicity.  But that death was by no means simple.  It's the depth of that death, burial and resurrection that teaches us the finality and security that that salvation provides.  As for the passages my friend, I do know them.  I also know that Jesus isn't teaching what you think He is.

Would you like me to show you those depths?  Otherwise, we'll move on to more edifying things...like what that love prompts us to do.   Smiley
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« Reply #84 on: March 31, 2004, 12:42:27 PM »

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Yes there is joy my friend!  But the unspeakable joy is found in understanding the unmerited depth of that love.   Smiley
And that I grasp more and more each day, though you don't think I do which is okay.

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Can be.  That is why Paul warns us not to.  I know many who hold to the Calvinistic predestination as their personal license to sin!  But that's not me.  You and I live obedient (as best we can) lives following Christ, with a desire to know Him more and more each day.  You live with a belief that if your heart goes astray, that you can lose what He has given you, but won't so long as you keep your heart for God.  

I live with the belief that if my heart goes astray, like the Great Shepherd He is, He will find me, and if need be, break me, hold me, teach me, love me, nuture me, and free me from the sinful mind that lead me to stray in the first place, by renewing my mind with His word.  If I live knowing He's my Shepherd...why would I willingly live in sin because I have fire insurance?  I wouldn't.  Rather, I live with a desire to hear "Well done thou good and faithful servant" from He Who bought me with His life's blood, paying for my sin and offering that payment to me, an undeserving sinner.  When my works are tried with fire, I want His to remain.  I want there to be His works to remain.  And I know, as sure as I know Whom I have believed, that when I stand in tears for the lack of what I could have accomplished in life had I died to myselfish desires, that it will be He Who wipes those tears away.  Not because I'm crying for a hard life here, but because of the failures that I've had here.  That's my God.  That's the God the bible teaches us about throughout.  That's the God that in the passages interpreted as being judgmental for sins already paid for, is misunderstood.  And yes, that's the God Who inspite of such misunderstandings and many, many others that we all have, loves us, nurtures us, holds us, breaks and builds us as we obey Him.  That, is what I know of my God.  That's the relationship I have with my God.  Smiley
Amen to this brother.  But I must say, we must be willing in order for that to happen, he won't force us.

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Yup.  There are.  So either Jesus taught opposite of the Law, and the remainder of the New Testament, or the Law and the New Testament taught differently from Jesus.  Sound confusing?  It should!  Because the bible doesn't teach this doctrine.  We come to these passages and misunderstand them because we do not understand what Jesus did on the cross.  Yup!  This is milk!  "Jesus died on the cross for my sins" doesn't get any milkier!  It's the message of God's love and grace that a lost and dying sinner can understand by it's simplicity.  But that death was by no means simple.  It's the depth of that death, burial and resurrection that teaches us the finality and security that that salvation provides.  As for the passages my friend, I do know them.  I also know that Jesus isn't teaching what you think He is.

Would you like me to show you those depths?  Otherwise, we'll move on to more edifying things...like what that love prompts us to do.
If there is a place in heaven where there is darkness, with weeping and knashing of teeth, please provide such passages.  NOWHERE in the bible does it describe such a place.  And a servant can be thrown into it with reason stated.  Thus the doctrine is complete.  But I will wait for you to find me those scriptures that speak of this place in heaven that is in darkness with weeping and knashing of teeth........

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I'd question the heart thing brother, but we've beat this dead horse a few times too many.   Cheesy  And yes.  There's always more to discuss...just perhaps elsewhere.
Yes we have, and it is clear that we don't agree with each other.  That's fine.  May God bless you on this journey through life, and guide your footsteps.

God bless.
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Pr. 3:5-7
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways acknowledge him,
    and he will make your paths straight.
Do not be wise in your own eyes;
    fear the LORD and shun evil.
Petro
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« Reply #85 on: April 02, 2004, 08:44:09 PM »

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everyday newborn reply #70

You teach someone that doctrine and they'll think they can use God's grace as a means to do what they want,
everyday newborn,

You need to read Rom, 6, 7,8, this might shed some light on this matter for you.

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because the only consequence of sinning means a falling out of fellowship and not losing their salvation.
You said, you were not talking about sinning and losing your salvation!............which is it??

Are you, or are you not speaking of,  a  Christian being able to lose slavation by sinning??

You are contradicting yourself.

It seems to me, you are not very honest, about what you are saying one moment and then cliaming what falling out of fellowship means,  the next................which is it??

What are you really talking about??   You sound confused..........................?


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With that kind of thinking, why would they receive Christ with fear and trembling?

The unsaved will definitely perish if they do not come to Christ by faith in Gods Word, which He has spoken, JESUS IS THE LIVING WORD AND is that Prophet of Deut 18:15-19.

Those who are saved, ..........I give unto them eternal life; and they shall will never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
I and my Father are one.
 (Jhn 10:28-30)

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You said yourself that those who reject the teachings of Jesus are as unbelievers,

Can you say that you,  believe Jesus own Words at John 10:28-30??

Clearly in furthering the doctrine you embrace, you don't..believe Him.

If you say you do, How so?

He says, at;

Jhn 3
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

And again,

Jhn 6
47  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

This is not something that happens at the end, it is reality to all who believe Him while in the flesh walking the earth, that is why Paul said;

Jhn 11
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.


He even asks you;   Believest thou this?




 
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so if you're not obeying what God commanded then you are an unbeliever.

You do not understand this verse this is why you ask such a question...if you underdstood the verser, you woul;dn't ask it...  because of sin there can be no fellowship, however God does not disown his adopted children, because they have sinned.  

For those that do not they have eternal life in Christ Jesus, the practice of disobedience as a matter of course, could very well be evidence they are unbelievers, and never really were saved, it is called self deception,  It is not enough, to believe I know God, the question one should ask Himself, does Jesus Know me.

2 Tim 2
19  Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

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Are you telling me you've never thought about doing something that was against God's will after you accepted Christ, and did it? If you haven't then you're one increadibly remarkable person. But if you have, then by your own definition you're not saved, because your aforethought sin marked you as an unbeliever.

Praise God, I trust in Jesus own blood who covers all of my sins, and not in my own abilities to keep the commandments perfectly, which I never could before I was saved, not to mention I had no interest in them to begin with. The word of God assures me, I was  made perfect in Jesus even  while dead in sin and tresspass, even the Faith I possess was given to me, by Gods Grace.

I suppose you would claim, you conjured up your saving faith??  


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Are you saying a believer can't commit a deliberate sin?

I am saying the scriptures make it plain to me, that:

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. (1Jhn 3:9-11.)

I suppose you would take issue with verse 9.........

Amazingly, you believe I hate you because I point the error you perpetuate by not only believing this great deception, but wanting to teach it.

I ask you, who is he that loves the brethern, one would teach them, doctrines which are man made, begun by the Father of lies, or one who would contends for the faith, pointing out error of heresy, even the doctrine of eternal Faith, denying the blood of Christ that bought them.

The fact is Christians should hate all lies, and should not perptuate lies from the father of lies, your doctrine is a lie.

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So nothing in the OT is relevant?

I never said that, did I??

The OT, has been abolished, I guess I assumed you knew this, that will teach me, to assume things, when pointing out things like this..

The reason why the OT has been abolished, is because Jesus the Testator of the New Testament has died, it is a fulfillment of the OT prophecy of Jeremiah 31:31-34.

One can learn certain principles which are still relevant from the OT, buit we are not under the OT, for instance at the passage you quote, the sons shall not perish for the sins of their fathers but will perish for their own sins.
 
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So we can toss the Ten Commandments out the window?

The 10 Commandments still serve their same purpose.

These Commandments, were never given, that by keeping them perfectly any flesh could ever be justified before God, they were simply given to be used to determine whether anyone had sinned against God, this is the only reason for the Law of Commandments, they are as a schoolmaster to bring man to Christ by FAITH, and when FAITH comes, that man (who comes to FAITH) is no longer under a schoolmaster (Gal 3:24)

cont'd..................
« Last Edit: April 02, 2004, 09:24:15 PM by Petro » Logged

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« Reply #86 on: April 02, 2004, 09:03:05 PM »

The law cannot kill the soul, because if a child of God sins, he is no longer judged by that Law, children of God are not under the Law of Commandments, but under the Law of Grace.

You simply need to study this, to understand it.

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So was OT scripture Jesus used to answer Satan not relevant, or anything from the OT for that matter?

The law gives us knowledge of Gods will, as I said before, no one will be saved by obedience to it.  Obedience to it will produce Faith in Jesus, if left to do its work.

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I know you disagree, because to you just accepting the free gift is all you need to do.

Thats right, it is not Faith plus my works that will get me saved; it is Faith alone that saved me, and that Faith is in Christ Jesus..and His finished Works at the Cross of Calvary.

On the other hand, faith plus keeping the law perfectly only insults Gods Grace, since all who claim one must obey the commandments perfectly not only can boast they have, but then can also demand slavtion, because of what they have done.

The very fact that you believe one sin that you commit, does not unsave you is proof, you don't even believe the doctrine you desire to teach and impose on others, yourself.

How many sins does it take to kill the soul, .................anyhow??



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Point being, if it were that simple and nothing more, there's going to be a lot of people going to heaven which is why I stated that scripture because it doesn't support that doctrine.

Is this the reason why you reject  the doctrine of "eternal security" based on Faith alone??

You just don't want people to be saved, because you believe Gods Word..................well,?Huh?

I  guess you must think you are god them............huh??

Friend, You do greatly error, since you are insulted and offended, that God has ordained people will be saved by Faith alone, in His Word alone, and by imposing your own ideas, theories and speculations on what the Word of God says, you reveal what you really believe.

Rather than going thru this excersice of debating, this; why didn't you just admit;

You think you know better than God.  Come on be honest..............


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Peter says that it's hard for the righteous to be saved, yet you make it so easy. Sorry, but I'll believe what Peter says.

So what does this prove??..................nothing.

Here is the Greek-English Interlinear NT version;
1 Pet 4
18  And if the righteous with difficulty is saved, the ungodly and sinner where shall appear?

This verse simply proves the "eternal security" position , and that is, that, inspite of many sins, those who are sealed by the Holy Spirit of  Promise, will be saved, inspite of themselves.

Rom 5
14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15  But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16  And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17  For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20  Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

You really do not believe Peter, and it matters little whether you do or don't,  however, you really should believe Jesus, when it comes to this question, what He says about it, is what matters.  Seeing He is God..

Paul said it best;

Rom 7
18  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19  For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20  Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21  I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

This explains our delima, and this is what I rest on, not in my own abilities to keep laws of commandments, but in Gods Grace.

But please don't misquote me, Christians should make everyeffort in their power to keep Jesus's Commandments, by this we can show the world we are children of God.  It is our testiminy, doing good works and not keeping the commandments, will never convince anyone we are Gods children.

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Long enough to know the Spirit behind it.

God bless
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Stay with it, that same Spirit can and will lead you in the way of Truth....concerning this matter.


Blessings,

Petro
« Last Edit: April 02, 2004, 09:29:57 PM by Petro » Logged

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« Reply #87 on: April 05, 2004, 11:51:45 PM »

 Hi, I just thought I'd add:

It is never O.K. to SIN! But we will and christ died for that!
Read the following Verses:

I Jn 2:18-19
18   Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19   They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
(KJV)

Just a thought. If you "LOSE IT" maybe you never had it?
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Phil.2:13 - For it is GOD which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
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« Reply #88 on: April 05, 2004, 11:53:34 PM »

 Hi, I just thought I'd add:

It is never O.K. to SIN! But we will and christ died for that!
Read the following Verses:

I Jn 2:18-19
18   Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19   They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
(KJV)

Just a thought. If you "LOSE IT" maybe you never had it?
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Phil.2:13 - For it is GOD which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
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« Reply #89 on: April 07, 2004, 07:51:30 PM »

Amen Little John  ................Amen..


Blessings,
Petro
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