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« on: January 24, 2004, 05:05:40 PM »

That interval of time which separates the removal of the Church from the earth and the return of Christ to earth is designated by various descriptions in the Word of God. Isaiah calls it the day of vengeance (Isaiah 61:2). Jeremiah calls it the time of Jacobs trouble (Jeremiah 30:7). It is called the great day of the Lord in Zephaniah 1:14, and a time of trouble in Daniel 12:1. The Lord Jesus calls it the Great Tribulation in Matthew 24:21 and Mark 13:19-20.

For then shall great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, nor ever shall be’ (Matthew 24:21).

The Tribulation is quite different from “tribulation” The word itself literally “to trash,” “to crush.” It carries with it the thought of sorrow and suffering and affliction. Most people some time in life suffer various forms of “tribulation.” (See
Job 14:1, John 16:33, Romans 12:12) But the period of time designated as Great Tribula-tion (or The Great Tribulation. Rev. 7:14) is more personal affliction or individual sorrow. It is a definite, specific period in which certain events will take place.

The Great Tribulation is always either directly started or specifically  indicated  as  being connected with Israel. In Jeremiah 30:7 it is called the Time of Jacob’s Trouble. Why Jacob? It is because of something  that happened in Jacob’s life that foreshadowed this tribulation time. It goes back to the night of Jacob’s trouble in Genesis 32:24-30. After some twenty years of exile, Jacob was about to return to his own land. He had reached the border when he heard of Esau’s plan to come and meet him with an army of men. Hearing of this Jacob became afraid and distressed. Through the night he cried to God for deliver-ance. He pleaded for mercy in his hour of crisis.

It was in this night of suffering and anguish that the Lord in mercy changed his name from Jacob to Israel. It was here that God showed more than mercy. He extended grace. For the name Israel means ‘a prince with God.’ So there will come a time when the nation Israel will be in similar circumstances of fear and distress. It will be the time of Jacob’s trouble, the hour of crisis for the nation Israel, The Great Tribulation.

It may not arrive until Israel returns to the Land. But is must come upon Israel before that nation enters into the millennial king-dom. And then during this time of crisis the Anti-Christ will strike fear into the hearts of the nation Israel, as did Esau to the man Israel long ago. And then Israel will cry to God (Matthew 6:13), and it is then that God will show mercy and grace to them. (Romans 11).

All this is yet future. It did not occur at the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 as some erroneously believe. At that time Israel was driven out of the land and scattered. They were not ‘saved’ not ‘delivered,’ but literally lost in the sea of nations. But at the close of the Tribulation time there shall come a ‘Deliverer,’ the Lord Jesus Christ. ‘And so all Israel shall be saved.’ (Romans 11:26).

The great Tribulation is imminent. It will be the most terrible time in all man's history. 'There shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation.' (Daniel 12:1) 'For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation.' (Mark 13:19; Matthew 24:21) Now is the day of salvation!
Dr. Henry Grube

Dr. Henry Grube was pastor of Greystone Bible Church; he went home to be with LORD in 1968.
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« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2004, 05:41:08 PM »

I asked this question in the apologetics page and have not received a solid answer.  What is the Biblical basis for the seven year tribulation?  This tract above is all theoretical if the basis for the tribulation is not established.
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« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2004, 06:08:27 PM »

One can not find in scripture the phrase " The Great Tribulation" .
Jesus speaks of great tribulation but not  as an event unto its self.

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« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2004, 06:37:05 PM »

Reba,
I'm aware that Jesus mentions "great tribulation".  The question is, how do people come up with the conclusion that it is seven years long?  The only time period associated with great tribulation is a 10 day period mentioned in Rev. 2:10.  That is the same time period between the ascencion of Jesus and Pentecost.
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« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2004, 06:41:06 PM »

There is no biblical bases for the 7-year tribulation. It is a Theory invented by the Jesuit priest Fr. Francisco Ribera as part of the counterreformation, then recycled years later by Protestants. You can always count on the Jesuits to mess things up. Roll Eyes

I have some good news, guys! The Tribulation is OVER! Wink Grin
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« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2004, 06:58:27 PM »

Reba,
I'm aware that Jesus mentions "great tribulation".  The question is, how do people come up with the conclusion that it is seven years long?  The only time period associated with great tribulation is a 10 day period mentioned in Rev. 2:10.  That is the same time period between the ascencion of Jesus and Pentecost.

It $ell$ book$  $hee$h
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« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2004, 08:25:57 AM »

I asked this question in the apologetics page and have not received a solid answer.  What is the Biblical basis for the seven year tribulation?  This tract above is all theoretical if the basis for the tribulation is not established.

As i said in the apologetics forum, Daniel 9:27 says,

for one week (7 years) a covenant will be signed with Israel by the prince (antichrist), and in the middle of that week (3.5 years) he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease, and on a corner of the altar desolating abominations, even until the end.

How long is it till the end?  

Dan 12:11  And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.  (3.5 years)

Jewish calander runs on 360 day years.  1,260 days/360 = 3.5 years.  If you start with one week (7 years or sevened), when the Antichrist signs is agreement with Israel, 3.5+3.5 you get seven years (one week).   Jesus made reference to this prophecy in Matt 24.  We also see in Rev 11:2 about the Gentiles treading under foot the temple for 42 months/12 = 3.5 years (last half).  

Rev 13:5  And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 42months/12month year= 3.5 years again last half.  

Rev 11:3  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.  1,260 days/360 = 3.5 years.  Again one half (in this particular case I believe the first half).  So using these numbers from scripture, and knowing that Daniel says 70 weeks are determined on Israel, and only 69 have been fulfilled, that leaves one week or 7 years yet to be seen.   During the middle of the 7 - 3.5 the antichrist will take away the daily sacrifice, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, then there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days till the end 3.5 years.

So, the last week begins when the Antichrist signs HIS covenant with Israel.  This is when the 70th week (or 7 years) begins.

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2004, 09:25:33 AM »

There is no biblical bases for the 7-year tribulation. It is a Theory invented by the Jesuit priest Fr. Francisco Ribera as part of the counterreformation, then recycled years later by Protestants. You can always count on the Jesuits to mess things up. Roll Eyes

I have some good news, guys! The Tribulation is OVER! Wink Grin

I'm not sure I follow you here Tibby.  I can't tell if you are jesting or not...lol.  Please clarify.   Smiley

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2004, 10:40:01 AM »

I assume you are referring the my comment on the Tribulation being over… I was kind of joking about they way I said it, but what I said is no joke. The Great Tribulation was in 70 A.D. with the Destruction of Jerusalem.
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« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2004, 12:37:56 AM »

Both Strong's Strongest Concordance and Websters Collegiate Dictionary define tribulation as an 'oppression' or 'trial' .

In the opening pages of Revelation John writes that he is here with us in our tribulation.  

Here is a thought:

The tribulation started with the ascension of Christ into heaven.  

All the apostles but John were killed and died violent deaths.  Up until Constantine declared [his version] Christianity the official religion of Rome, Christians were persecuted and killed, remember Paul stood by as Stephen was stoned to death.

Even though the Romans stopped their persecution of the Christians, the world did not and the Roman Catholic Church was all to happy to persecute anyone who did not follow THEIR doctrine but instead followed the teachings of Christ.

The United States is barely 400 years old and we have not had foreign armies invade us for almost two hundred years, so persecution to us is a difficult concept.  

When Jesus ascended into heaven the tribulation for Christians started.  When the 6th seal is opened we know [ because it is called the Day of the Lord] that Jesus is not far behind.

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« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2004, 01:27:07 AM »

The United States is barely 400 years old and we have not had foreign armies invade us for almost two hundred years, so persecution to us is a difficult concept.  

Try being a Southern Catholic.  Wink Grin
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« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2004, 07:21:34 AM »

I assume you are referring the my comment on the Tribulation being over… I was kind of joking about they way I said it, but what I said is no joke. The Great Tribulation was in 70 A.D. with the Destruction of Jerusalem.

Hmm, I was afraid you might say something like that  Undecided

OK, a few questions just to provoke some thought (not debate)....if the tribulation was in 70 AD, how do you account for the following...

1.  When was the gospel preached to all nations in the world?
2.  When and who was the Antichrist?
3.  When and what was the mark of the beast that the antichrist forced every man, rich, poor, and slave, to receive in order to sell and buy?
4.  Who was the 200 million man army?  (if there were even that many people on the earth in 70 AD, we would have to include almost everyone as being part of this army.  Which begs another question.)
5.  When did they kill a thrid part of mankind? (and why would an army kill a third of itself?)
6.  When did Euphrates river dry up to prepare the way for the 200 million man army?
7.  Where are we now in your timeline, although more than a thousand years (of peace?) have passed?
8.  When was Jerusalem forever removed from being the burdensome stone?
9. Why has it now returned to that status in our times?
10. When did all the Jews shout, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord," as Jesus predicted?
   
Do you see the problems these create?   I can think of many more.  I have heard the 70 AD claims before, but it simply does not account for numerous prophecies that are most certainly part of the tribulation scenario that have never happened.  In order to make 70AD the magical year, one has to either ignore the other prophecies completely, or be left with a plethera of scripture passages that do not agree with one another, or severly twist the interpretation of the Bible to make it all fit.   I hope this doesn't sound as though I am being harsh, thats not my intent.  I just don't know what else to say.   Lips Sealed

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« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2004, 11:27:27 AM »

Quote
Hmm, I was afraid you might say something like that  

OK, a few questions just to provoke some thought (not debate)....if the tribulation was in 70 AD, how do you account for the following...


Quote
1.  When was the gospel preached to all nations in the world?

Rom 1:8

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
KJV

Rom 10:18

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
KJV
Quote
2.  When and who was the Antichrist?

 1 John 2:18

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
KJV

Quote
3.  When and what was the mark of the beast that the antichrist forced every man, rich, poor, and slave, to receive in order to sell and buy?

What scripture says an antichrist will force every man…..? There are only 4 verses, in all of scripture, that  speak of antichrist, and not one of them elude to a single person as in "THE antichrist." The littel books of John are the only place the scripture uses the word antichrist.


Quote
4.  Who was the 200 million man army?  (if there were even that many people on the earth in 70 AD, we would have to include almost everyone as being part of this army.  Which begs another question.)
5.  When did they kill a thrid part of mankind? (and why would an army kill a third of itself?)
6.  When did Euphrates river dry up to prepare the way for the 200 million man army?
7.   Where are we now in your timeline, although more than a thousand years (of peace?) have passed?


 Do we pick and choose which scripture to take literally and when they are symbolic ?
Quote
8.  When was Jerusalem forever removed from being the burdensome stone?

 Luke 13:34-35

34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV
Quote
9. Why has it now returned to that status in our times?
I do not understand what status you are speaking of…. Jerusalem is not the capitol of Israel nor is  it the spiritual center of anything.
Quote
10. When did all the Jews shout, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord," as Jesus predicted?
 The gospels tell us...

John 12:13
13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV

Mark 11:9

9 And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord:KJV

John 12:13

13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Luke 19:38

38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.
KJV

KJV  ************
OK, a few scriptrues just to provoke some thought (not debate). Wink
« Last Edit: January 26, 2004, 11:54:54 AM by Reba » Logged
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« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2004, 03:57:36 PM »

Hi Reba,

We have much ground to cover here.

Quote
Rom 1:8

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
KJV

Rom 10:18

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

While I accept these verses as they are, its hard to conceive he is refering to the entire earth here.  Somehow I don't think people in the America's had received the gospel here.  Surely he means the known world or Roman empire.  Either way, I will give you these.  Smiley

Quote
Tim--->2.  When and who was the Antichrist?  
 
1 John 2:18

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
KJV

There have been many antichrists, but THE final one has not come yet.  He tells them they have heard that THE antichrist (singular) will come.   If he came in 70 AD who was he?  I believe Titus was the one who sent troops to destroy the temple.  But I don't see how he connects to the antichrist in Revelation, as he is suppose to be thrown into the lake of fire.

Quote
3.  When and what was the mark of the beast that the antichrist forced every man, rich, poor, and slave, to receive in order to sell and buy?

What scripture says an antichrist will force every man…..? There are only 4 verses, in all of scripture, that  speak of antichrist, and not one of them elude to a single person as in "THE antichrist." The littel books of John are the only place the scripture uses the word antichrist.

First to show who this man is.

Dan 7:24  And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25  And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Clearly one individual.  Revelation sheds more light on the same man who is referred to as the beast.

Rev 13:5  And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6  And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7  And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations

And here he forces all great and small, rich and poor, free and slave to receive his mark.

Rev 13:16  And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

And here...

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2Th 2:5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Rev 19:20 says the Beast and the false prophet will be cast into the lake of fire when christ returns.

Note: the beast is not Satan, as Satan is put in the bottemless pit for 1000 years.  In Rev 19:20 the antichrist is thrown into the lake of fire along with the false prophet.

Quote
Tim---> 4.  Who was the 200 million man army?  (if there were even that many people on the earth in 70 AD, we would have to include almost everyone as being part of this army.  Which begs another question.)
5.  When did they kill a thrid part of mankind? (and why would an army kill a third of itself?)
6.  When did Euphrates river dry up to prepare the way for the 200 million man army?
7.   Where are we now in your timeline, although more than a thousand years (of peace?) have passed?  
 
quote:Reba
Do we pick and choose which scripture to take literally and when they are symbolic ?

I assume you refering to my post about the locusts.  I think I was fairly clear when I said the locusts could be something else because of the language John uses describing them.  Sounds like, looks like, something like.  As I have always said, when the text makes plain sense, seek no other sense.   So yes, a litteral reading is required, unless the text indicates otherwise.

Rev 9:16  And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand(200,000,000): and I heard the number of them.

He says this is the number of the army he heard!  Litterally.

Rev 16:12  And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

The water of great river of Euphrates dried up...preparing the way for the Kings of the east.  This is what John says he saw!  Litterally.

Rev 20:2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3  And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

A Thousand years is mentioned 6 times in Rev 20 after this period of tribulation.  I am just currious how Tibby ties this into his timeline of 70 AD.

Quote
8.  When was Jerusalem forever removed from being the burdensome stone?
 
Luke 13:34-35

34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV

Jesus has not returned to the house of Israel yet..still waiting for the day when they all say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord as some did when Jesus first entered Jerusalem...they still await for messiah.  In 1948 Israel declared itself a nation again.  Today they are very much the burdensome stone of middle east peace for every nation in the world that has interest there.  I suspect Israel will accept either the false prophet or the beast in Revelation as messiah.

Quote

9. Why has it now returned to that status in our times?  
 
I do not understand what status you are speaking of…. Jerusalem is not the capitol of Israel nor is  it the spiritual center of anything.

Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel?   Huh  I assume you must mean something else here?...but in a litteral sense Jerusalem is the capital of Israel (I'm not sure I understand).   It may not be the spiritual center of anything as far as the church goes, but God speaks of Israel being a burdensome stone.   God has turned to the gentiles who now accept him, but Israel is still Gods chosen people.  


Zec 12:2  Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:3  And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Watch an hour of CNN and tell me the peace of Israel is not on the top of every nations priority for the region.  She is the key to the region, and is deffinately a cup of trembling to everyone in the middle east.  If this ended in 70 AD why is Israel the highlight of middle east peace issues today?   God is not finished with his chosen people, and the time of Jacobs trouble (or tribulation period) will deal directly with the Israel and her disbelief.

For the sake of room (too many quotes)....the other scripture you quote about the palm branches and so forth, saying blessed is he that comes in the name of the lord-- In Matthew this all happened as Jesus entered Jerusalem, well before Jesus foretold those in the temple, he would not return to their house until he heard this from them.  As far as I know, this did not happen in or after 70 AD again.  Israel is still blind to Christ their messiah.

Quote
OK, a few scriptrues just to provoke some thought (not debate).
 

Good stuff Reba.  I love talking about endtimes.  I don't like it when it turns into fighting.  That doesn't help anyone, and it certainly does not bring out the best in us.   I do like to hear how others see things playing out.  I must admit, I have not heard too many folks discuss the 70 AD theory before.  While I don't personally accept it, I am currious as to why some come to that conclusion.  If nothing else, it forces us to search the scriptures, and thats always a good thing.

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2004, 04:32:54 PM »

You’re no thinking 4th dimensionally! No one never said when the Trib was going to be, whither it was going to be before or after any other this. You see, those questions you asked are based on ONE thing:

That your interpretation of the End times is the Correct one. That the parts you say are literal are, and the part that you say are symbolic are, and the parts you added in are credible. For example, the Antichrist doesn't have to be a "who" at all.
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