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Author Topic: The Great Tribulation: What is it?  (Read 7673 times)
Reba
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« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2004, 04:34:48 PM »

Rev 1:1-3
1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
KJV


Believing God to understand the time frame He created for man... the words  'shortly' and 'at hand' meant just what they said.

70 ad fits in also with the the generation thing.  

Matt 24:34

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
KJV

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Reba
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« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2004, 05:35:04 PM »

Tim,

 You correctly challenged my thoughtsÖ. So I went searching I had thought for years Tel Aviv was the capital of Israel . This is a little quote from a site  ďTel Aviv serves a number of the capital functions together with the official capital of Israel, Jerusalem (not recognized by the international society, and not any neighbour country). ď If the people of Israel consider Jerusalem to be the capital then it is.  Thanks  
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« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2004, 04:31:27 AM »

Quote
Posted by: Tibby  Posted on: January 26, 2004, 03:32:54 PM  
Youíre no thinking 4th dimensionally! No one never said when the Trib was going to be, whither it was going to be before or after any other this. You see, those questions you asked are based on ONE thing:

That your interpretation of the End times is the Correct one. That the parts you say are literal are, and the part that you say are symbolic are, and the parts you added in are credible. For example, the Antichrist doesn't have to be a "who" at all.  

Hey Tibby,

I know there are numerous beliefs about how endtime prophecy unfolds, and just like you say, it all boils down to how one interprets scripture.   I personally do base that on a litteral interpretation mainly because Jesus gave examples of litteral interpretation of scripture in his day as it related to OT prophecy.  Before I give a few examples, please understand that I am a truth seeker and do not wish to be wrong about my understanding of these things.  If you have scriptural evidence contrary to what I say, please share it.  I may not agree, but like I said to Reba, it forces us to dig into the word and see if what we believe really has basis, rather than accepting it at face value.   I have heard the 70 AD argument before, but just in passing and never really understood how one fully comes to that conclusion based on a prophetic whole.  Theres really only two ways of interpreting scripture.  The first is to draw meaning from the text itself, and second, to read meaning into the text in a spiritual or allegorical way which may not be readily seen on the surface.  I agree that there are "depths" if you will, in scripture.  Like parables, dual meanings, etc.  But to read and understand the bible in a plain and literal sense first, allows the holy spirit to teach deeper meaning, bringing the word to life.   Jesus and the deciples give us golden examples of litteral interpretation.

Mat 22:41  While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
Mat 22:42  Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
Mat 22:43  He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
Mat 22:44  The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mat 22:45  If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

Mat 22:46  And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

Jesus knew that their answer would be that the messiah would be the son of David.  He then reminded them that David under inspiration of the holy spirit not only recognised his future decendant to be messiah, but also his LORD, showing them the inconsistancy of their interpretation of Psalms 110.  The problem was, how could Davids son also be Davids Lord?  They either had to change their theology and admit Jesus' claim to be messiah and equal with God was consistant with prophecy, or say that the scriptures were in error.  The whole argument was wrapped around the litteral phrase "the lord said unto my lord".   They refused to accept a litteral interpretation of this passage, because it did not fit their pressuposition about the coming messiah.  This is a perfect example by Jesus himself showing us grammatical and litteral interpretation of scripture.

Heres another example of Litteral interpretation of prophecy by Jesus where it holds duality and a gap of time between fulfillment.

Luk 4:14  And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
Luk 4:15  And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
Luk 4:16  And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Luk 4:17  And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18  The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19  To preach the acceptable year of the Lord


Jesus read to this point in Isa 60:1-2 and stopped mid sentence....

Luk 4:20  And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luk 4:21  And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

It was not customary to read such a short passage, much less stop in mid sentence.  The final part of Isa 61:2b is ....

Isa 61:2  [....], and the day of vengeance of our God; [....]

Had Jesus read the ending he could not have stated that "today this scripture is fulfilled".  Because the coming of messiah opened the age of Grace to us, not vengeance.  The day of vengeance is associated with the day of the lord and endtime events.   A perfect example given by Jesus himself, showing how many years can be separated by one comma in a prophetic passage.

So I guess I am guilty as you say as taking verses litterally.  Where the text makes sense, seek no other sense.  Where the text does not make plain sense, we have to ask the holy spirit to open our eyes so we can understand what is meant.

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2004, 05:17:07 AM »

Rev 1:1-3
1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
KJV

Believing God to understand the time frame He created for man... the words  'shortly' and 'at hand' meant just what they said.

70 ad fits in also with the the generation thing.  

I can see this.  Shortly and at hand makes a lot of sense, for me, it just doesn't address the other things John was shown in the visison.  What about the Lord returning to earth with his army, where every eye shall see him, not to mention all the other events of wrath that Jesus says in Matt. had that time not be shortened no flesh would survive.   Shortly to the Lord, could be many years.  You know the verse, a day as a thousand, a thousand as a day.  I can certainly understand how someone would see it the way you explain Reba.  For me, it just doesn't add up taking everything else John saw into account.   I will address the generation thing below.

Quote
Matt 24:34

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
KJV

To be honest, I am not sure what to make of this verse.  I know the desciples ask Jesus 3 questions at the beginning of the olivet discourse.  
1. when shall these things be? (temple destroyed)
2. and what shall be the sign of thy coming,
3. and of the end of the world?

There is a broad range of thought on the "generation" verse.  Some see it as you do, regarding 70 AD.  Some see it as Israel rebudding in the end day.  Some read generation as "race" saying that Israel as a race would not pass.   I'm not sure how to take this passage.  I tend to lean towards Israel rebudding in the last days, but I am not really sure about that.  

My question is....Jesus said this generation would not pass till ALL these things be fulfilled.  When was the sign of the coming of the son of man in the clouds with great glory, and all the tribes will that morned?  When were the Elect gathered by angels with trumpets?   Jesus also said, then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.  Jesus says if those days were not shortened nearly all flesh would be destroyed.  I think most would agree we have seen worse times in our century than ever happened in 70 AD.   The language John uses in Revelation makes it sound as if most of mankind will be killed during the time he described.   A third of mankind here, a third there, etc etc.  So for me its hard to place 70 AD as the magical year or time frame when all these things happened.   So to me, the parable of the fig tree must either address only the question of the temple being destroyed, and the persecution the deciples would face, or it must mean something else, perhaps when Israel would be re-born as a nation and all these events would culminate together during one period of time.

Again, I stress...I really don't know.  In my own mind, I just cannot make sense of 70 AD addressing everything Jesus said it was going to be in the passage.

Quote
You correctly challenged my thoughtsÖ. So I went searching I had thought for years Tel Aviv was the capital of Israel . This is a little quote from a site  ďTel Aviv serves a number of the capital functions together with the official capital of Israel, Jerusalem (not recognized by the international society, and not any neighbour country). ď If the people of Israel consider Jerusalem to be the capital then it is.  Thanks  

No problem, I wasn't sure what you meant by your statement, so thats why I asked.   I actually double checked myself, just to make sure things had not changed....lol

Grace and Peace!
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Reba
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« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2004, 10:24:49 AM »

One of the differences ....

The Death of CHRIST. This is a very big deal. His death, ressurection the whole program. Is like nothing else man will ever see. Nothing that is or ever will be in history will compare to the sacrifice of and on the CROSS. I see the distruction of the city, temple, the religious higharcy of that time pictured in Revelation.  

 Reading the begining of the book literaly, comparing scripture to scripture  the words shortly and at hand anyone in this day can do a  search of those words, scripturaly speaking they have common meaning.  
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« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2004, 10:51:08 AM »

Hey Tibby,

I know there are numerous beliefs about how endtime prophecy unfolds, and just like you say, it all boils down to how one interprets scripture.   I personally do base that on a litteral interpretation mainly because Jesus gave examples of litteral interpretation of scripture in his day as it related to OT prophecy.  Before I give a few examples, please understand that I am a truth seeker and do not wish to be wrong about my understanding of these things.  If you have scriptural evidence contrary to what I say, please share it.  I may not agree, but like I said to Reba, it forces us to dig into the word and see if what we believe really has basis, rather than accepting it at face value.   I have heard the 70 AD argument before, but just in passing and never really understood how one fully comes to that conclusion based on a prophetic whole.  Theres really only two ways of interpreting scripture.  The first is to draw meaning from the text itself, and second, to read meaning into the text in a spiritual or allegorical way which may not be readily seen on the surface.  I agree that there are "depths" if you will, in scripture.  Like parables, dual meanings, etc.  But to read and understand the bible in a plain and literal sense first, allows the holy spirit to teach deeper meaning, bringing the word to life.   Jesus and the deciples give us golden examples of litteral interpretation.

Mat 22:41  While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
Mat 22:42  Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
Mat 22:43  He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
Mat 22:44  The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mat 22:45  If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

Mat 22:46  And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

Jesus knew that their answer would be that the messiah would be the son of David.  He then reminded them that David under inspiration of the holy spirit not only recognised his future decendant to be messiah, but also his LORD, showing them the inconsistancy of their interpretation of Psalms 110.  The problem was, how could Davids son also be Davids Lord?  They either had to change their theology and admit Jesus' claim to be messiah and equal with God was consistant with prophecy, or say that the scriptures were in error.  The whole argument was wrapped around the litteral phrase "the lord said unto my lord".   They refused to accept a litteral interpretation of this passage, because it did not fit their pressuposition about the coming messiah.  This is a perfect example by Jesus himself showing us grammatical and litteral interpretation of scripture.

Heres another example of Litteral interpretation of prophecy by Jesus where it holds duality and a gap of time between fulfillment.

Luk 4:14  And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
Luk 4:15  And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
Luk 4:16  And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Luk 4:17  And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18  The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19  To preach the acceptable year of the Lord


Jesus read to this point in Isa 60:1-2 and stopped mid sentence....

Luk 4:20  And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luk 4:21  And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

It was not customary to read such a short passage, much less stop in mid sentence.  The final part of Isa 61:2b is ....

Isa 61:2  [....], and the day of vengeance of our God; [....]

Had Jesus read the ending he could not have stated that "today this scripture is fulfilled".  Because the coming of messiah opened the age of Grace to us, not vengeance.  The day of vengeance is associated with the day of the lord and endtime events.   A perfect example given by Jesus himself, showing how many years can be separated by one comma in a prophetic passage.

So I guess I am guilty as you say as taking verses litterally.  Where the text makes sense, seek no other sense.  Where the text does not make plain sense, we have to ask the holy spirit to open our eyes so we can understand what is meant.

Grace and Peace!

Good attitude. To bad you arenít Anti-Catholic Wink

You make a good point. However, I think the reason he gave literal citations for when he talked about old scripture is because he was quoting it, to give people things to relate to. In the second passage you gave, he was reading directly from the scripture, so of course it is going to be literally spoken.

I donít know, all this Electronic Chips and Nuclear War Theory just seems a bit to Gnostic for my taste. Needless to say, Iím not down on all of that stuff.

Where do we draw the line on what to take literally. Surely you donít take ALL of the end time prophecy literal? Surely you donít think an actual lamb is going to lead the Army. Surely you donít think I women large enough to touch the sun, moon, and stars is going to big birth, and a giant dragon will try to eat the baby. Where the text makes sense, seek no other sense, that is good, but if half of a text doesnít make sense in our physical world, and it is all mixed in with the stuff that does make sense, it makes one wonder if it is really meant to be read in such a manor, mid chapter, switching from Literal to symbolic.
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« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2004, 11:08:21 AM »

Quote
Reading the begining of the book literaly, comparing scripture to scripture  the words shortly and at hand anyone in this day can do a  search of those words, scripturaly speaking they have common meaning.  


If we apply this to beginning of the book, then it must also agree with this at the end...

Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Has this happened yet?

Rev 22:3  And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev 22:4  And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Rev 22:5  And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 22:6  And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. Rev 22:7  Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

To accept shortly in the beginning as already happened, we have to also accept shortly here at the end as it also says these things are faithful and true, and must come shortly.  Just prior to this chapter, he says he saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the former had passed away.  So if we take this litterally, then "shortly" must be much longer to God, than it is to us.  Notice the thousand years between Christ coming back in great power and glory, till the great white throne judgment.   Yet the he says right after that these things must come shortly.   A thousand years is not short by our definition of the word.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, it just doesn't make sense that way.  There is however another passage of scripture that speaks to this very topic (judgment, endtime) regarding Gods view of "time frame" and the endtime judgments


2Pe 3:6  Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7  But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

If you read the entire chapter 3 (2 Peter), this is addressing those people who deny the coming of the lord (scoffers), "saying where is his coming and judgment?"   Yet he addresses how time to God is different than ours 1000 years= day, day= 1000 years.  This makes more sense to me regarding the "shortly" used in Revelation, and also that many of the things in Rev seem absent from history.

Scripture interpreting scripture.

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2004, 11:25:20 AM »

365 X 1000  = 365,000

Tell me has it been  2000 X 365,000 = 730,000,000  years sence Jesus was on the  cross?


How do we understand 1000  in Revelation to be  a literal number when compaired to

Ps 50:10

10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
KJV
 
who owns the cattle on hill number 1001?

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« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2004, 11:27:14 AM »

Hey Tibby,

Quote
Where do we draw the line on what to take literally. Surely you donít take ALL of the end time prophecy literal? Surely you donít think an actual lamb is going to lead the Army. Surely you donít think I women large enough to touch the sun, moon, and stars is going to big birth, and a giant dragon will try to eat the baby. Where the text makes sense, seek no other sense, that is good, but if half of a text doesnít make sense in our physical world, and it is all mixed in with the stuff that does make sense, it makes one wonder if it is really meant to be read in such a manor, mid chapter, switching from Literal to symbolic.

Many places in Revelation are explained in detail by either an Elder, an angel, or the Lord.  Not everything, but some.  Many other symbolic imagries can be explained somewhere in the Bible.  A concordence is very useful in many cases.  Daniel is also a mirror to much of Revelation, and in that book also, an angel explains what He is seeing many times.  So we have been given the clues as to how these visions are seen and interpreted by heavenly beings.   No I don't believe a 7 headed beast is going to rise up off the Atlantic wearing crowns whilest a prostetute rides it....lol   Again, this scene is described in detail by an angel explaining each thing that John saw.  

So we have insight from the angel, as well as previous prophets who were also given insight by angels.  Revelation is clearly meant to be studied and interpreted.  No question that some of it is difficult, but its obvious that God feels he has given us enough examples and clues that we can search his word and heart to understand what he has showed us in these books.   Its up to us to dig in and understand whats there.

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2004, 11:33:30 AM »

Tim,

 I do not see rapture as many do in todays world.... BUT  your little  raptured smiley makes me smile every time i see him.... Smiley
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« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2004, 11:52:07 AM »

365 X 1000  = 365,000

Tell me has it been  2000 X 365,000 = 730,000,000  years sence Jesus was on the  cross?


How do we understand 1000  in Revelation to be  a literal number when compaired to

Ps 50:10

10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
KJV
 
who owns the cattle on hill number 1001?



Wouldn't that be days instead of years?  365 days X 1,000 years = 365,000 days.  Tongue  Calm down Reba!   Cheesy  Whoever owns hill 1001 will surely have to deal with the odor coming from the cows on the other thousand hills....lol  j/k sorry couldn't resist!

I see your point about taking the 1000 years litterally, but threaded throughout Revelation, John gives specific lengths of time pertaining to various events in number of days, months, and years.   I see no reason in any of the text to dismiss these time frames as litteral.  I get the impression John was trying to be very accurate with what he saw and heard.  Yes even when the Lord said shortly!  But as I have shown in that case we do have reason to seek other sense of the text, because all these things mentioned did not happen shortly....still waiting for Christ to return and rule on earth, and for the heavens and the earth to pass away with fire.   2 Peter chapter 3 sheds tremendous light on this, and its even relevant to the same subject in his text.

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2004, 12:11:33 PM »

Quote
....still waiting for Christ to return and rule on earth....
Surly many have sung the hymn All Hail King Jesus  all hail Emanuel  King of Kings Lord of Lords....Is He not King?  

His very  words say  'My kingdon is not of this world...' because He says His kingdom is not of this earth does that make Him less the King?

The Jews 200O (730,000,000 days  Tongue  ) years ago did not see Him as their King.

He rules He reigns He is King of kings...

1 Peter 3:22
 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers beingmade subject unto him. KJV

Matt 28:18

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.KJV


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« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2004, 12:51:52 PM »

I agree Reba.  He is King of Kings and lord of lords.  He does not yet reign on earth yet however.  Revelation says he is physcially coming back to rule and reign on earth, and we will reign with him!

Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15  And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16  And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

We still await this, after which time we will rule with him for 1,000 years.  After the 1,000 years, a new heaven and a new earth will be made.

Rev 21:1  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3  And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5  And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6  And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7  He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

What a glorious vision and promise that awaits us.  Life will be as it was intended from the beginning.  

Grace and Peace!
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Tim

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Reba
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« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2004, 02:01:43 PM »

The Jews of old did not believe He reigns...

1 Chron 16:29-31

29 Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name: bring an offering, and come before him: worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness.

30 Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.

31 Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice: and let men say among the nations, The LORD reigneth.
KJV

Ps 47:8

8 God reigneth over the heathen: God sitteth upon the throne of his holiness.
KJV

Ps 93:1-2
93:1 The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.

2 Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.
KJV

Ps 96:9-10

9 O worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness: fear before him, all the earth.

10 Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.
KJV

Ps 97:1
97:1 The LORD reigneth; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad thereof.
KJV

Ps 99:1
:1 The LORD reigneth; let the people tremble: he sitteth between the cherubims; let the earth be moved.
KJV

Isa 52:6-7

6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.

7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
KJV
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ollie
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« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2004, 05:41:10 PM »

I agree Reba.  He is King of Kings and lord of lords.  He does not yet reign on earth yet however.  Revelation says he is physcially coming back to rule and reign on earth, and we will reign with him!

Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15  And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16  And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

We still await this, after which time we will rule with him for 1,000 years.  After the 1,000 years, a new heaven and a new earth will be made.

Rev 21:1  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3  And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5  And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6  And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7  He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

What a glorious vision and promise that awaits us.  Life will be as it was intended from the beginning.  

Grace and Peace!

"He does not yet reign on earth yet however."  

Matthew 28:18.  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

 1 Corinthians 15:20.  But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
 21.  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
 22.  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
 23.  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
 24.  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
 25.  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
 26.  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
 27.  For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
 28.  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.








How do Christians reign with Christ?

Romans 5:17. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

 2 Timothy 2:11.  It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
 12.  If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:



 

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