Best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages

[2nd Timothy]

Anyhow, what I want to say is, that I do believe in a rapture but, I am of the opinion, it is netiher pre nor mid, so I call it pre wrath, not in the original sense of the word when coined since that one had serious problems.  But i use the term in general to mean exactly what it says.

Pre Wrath, is it emminent, I believe it is!

I have been giving this much thought.  I can honestly say that the more I look into any particular view, the harder it becomes to say "here's the right one"...lol  

What is certain, is that our Lord tells us, we do not know when it will happen.   Therefore Watch!  because you do not know the day your Lord returns.  We know for certain he says he will come for us at a time we do not expect it.

Having said this, I have been thinking about the whole picture, and have a few more thoughts about pre-trib view.

While it seems possible that pre-wrath (or any time during the beginning of the trib) rapture is a possibilty, and still holds a certain amount of immenancy, Its difficult to understand why intense tribulation is needed to beat up and test the Bride.   We believe currently that Christ died and took on Gods punishment for our iniquities at the cross.   We all face trials daily that test and strengthen our faith.   Those of us who devote ourselves to trust in him and his gift of salvation do so because what he did for us.  And we do so without ever having seen him...only by the leading of the holy spirit, and the words of those who testify to having seen him.   There is no question that facing an early portion of the tribulation period or even right up to wrath portion, would indeed test and strengthen us.  And perhaps this is what God wants.  But, if he wanted to test the church with intense tribulation, why only a small portion of believers, at one particular point in history?   Haven't all believers at some point in their walk been tested by him?  Does the last days church require intensive tribulation?

This brings me to the following.

What is the reason for "intense" tribulation spoken of in Revelation.  What is the purpose of this book?  The prupose is the Revelation of Jesus Christ.   Who is he attempting to reveal himself to?

Repentance is spoken about throughout Revelation.  "Watchfullness and endurance" cannot be seen as a theme anywhere...only one church early on.  Tribulation and Judgment is being poured out on the earth in an effort to reveal Christ's authority, encourage repentance, and purify men and the earth for the most part.   Does the true church fall into this category of unbelief or unrepenant?  Granted some so called believers may, but I thought if we were found in Christ, saved by the blood, we were already pure in the fathers eyes.  We have already been purchased, no intrest or balloon payments pending!

This line of thinking also brings us to, how good we need to be or serve (or how much we must prove) before we are worthy of being received by Jesus does it not?  This seems to go against the character of what the word teaches and being in Jesus by his works at calvary.  

From a pre-trib view, those who did not believe before hand, are brought into the focus of intense tribulation, to encourage repentance.   How ironic, if the rapture happens pre trib, those left behind now have tangeble truth (millions of missing believers) that Jesus is who he says he is.   They would now be forced to endure intense tribulation and even death to prove their obediance and trust in the living God.  Where as the church having never seen proof, believed out of faith all along.

These of course are just some thoughts I have considered while meditating on this.   Regardles, I have faith and trust that God's timing and wisdom are perfect, and things will happen just as they should to complete his purpose in us and the in the earth.

Grace and Peace!

[Paul2]

      Hello everybody,

      My computer has been broken but is now fixed so I'm back. For those who don't know me, take a look at my writings on the subject of the Rapture of the church in the previous pages of this post. Many important details are discussed, and many questions are already answered in my posts.

     I have told a friend of mine named Scott to check out this site and my posts. Scott, have you found the site yet? When you get here, log on with a user name and password and then leave a reply message for me by clickings "reply" at the bottom of the last post of this topic. I'm looking forward to hearing from you.

     As far as the rest of you are concerned, I've been gone for about a month now and I'll be checking out your posts to see what I've been missing, and to help me remember where I left off before my computer crashed. Its good to be back and I look forward to discussions and the debates that always follow. Now where was I............

                                                         Paul2
   

[2nd Timothy]

Hey Paul2,

I was wondering what happend to you.  Glad to hear you got your PC problems worked out.  And I look forward to hearing more of your pret-trib posting...

Grace and Peace!

[Paul2]

      Thanks for the "welcome back" , I have no idea where to begin again. It seems everytime I really get into it something happens to stop my progress. First the site crashed and all my posts were lost, then my old computer crashed, then my new computer crashed, seems like someone out there wants me to remain silent.... could it be........SATAN!

     Well as some of you may have noticed, I'm not shy, and I'm not easy to silence either. So I'll try to get the message out once again. At the rate I'm going the Rapture will take place before I'm done studing it with you all, which would be fine with me but I'd feel bad for those of you who weren't quite ready for it.

    Funny thing is the more Satan tries to silence me the more motivated I become. Feels great to be back in the game, hopefully I can make a difference for somebody out there.

    I'm working on a new friend of mine named Scott, who is on the verge of becoming a Christian (hopefully). He's the blacksmith for our horses and a super nice guy who I hit it off with the first time I met him. He comes to shoe our horses once every 6 weeks and each time he comes I spend a couple of hours discussing God, Jesus and the Bible with him. He's interested in our discussions, but has no background information on true Chistianity. He took his first big step of faith by giving me the money to buy him a Bible (because he doesn't know what version to buy that can be trusted).

     So I'm going to get him a Bible and highlight some important verses for him to study up on. I asked him to go and see the Mel Gibson movie "The Passion of the Christ" with me when it comes out so he will understand what our Salvation required of Jesus Christ our lord and Savior. I explained to him that our Salvation has already been paid in full by the blood of Christ and that by faith alone we are saved by the blood of Christ. He's very receptive but needs to have many questions answered before he can truely make his decission. I explained to him that faith comes from "hearing", many people read the Bible but never come to true faith. Theres alot of information that the Bible alone does not explain to someone who has never studied it before. I told him I'd be willing to study with him and answer all his questions and show him where in the Bible these answers can be found. I believe people should know why they believe and be able to defend their faith. I seem to have been sidelined for a while but I'm back in the game again.

      Please say a prayer for me and my friend Scott and ask that I be given the wisdom to answer his questions, and that Scott's heart be open to receive the answers and that he be given the gift of faith in Christ that only comes from God and that he receives the Holy Spirit as his personal guide and teacher of God's truth. Pray for Scott to become a Christian and join us on the clouds to meet Christ in the air on the great day of the Rapture.

     P.s.  Please pray Scott be given the patience to put up with me, and that I be given whatever is necessary to help him find the faith and truth of Jesus Christ.  Thank you all!

                                                          Paul2

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to Paul2,

Welcome back brother. I'm having computer problems too. I'll give you a hint what worked for me. I tightened the baling wire 2 turns and used another roll of duct tape.  

The new computers have 4 and 5 squirrels inside that run around and make it work. My old, obsolete computer started out with 2 squirrels, but one of them died and the other one only has two or three legs left.  

I will definitely be praying for you and Scott. I love to hear about the excitement of someone coming to Christ. Give our best wishes and encouragement to Scott.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Paul2]

       Reba challenged me to address Rev. 1:1-3

Revelation 1:1  "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
   2: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
   3: Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."

      The main points that Reba wanted addressed would be, "must shortly come to pass" and "for the time is at hand"

      Why? Because some people believe that all that was written in the Book of Revelation was completed 1900 years ago. Some do not believe in the literal interpretation, and therefore must see the Book as figurative, symbolic but not literal. They will have you believe that the millenium has began 1900 years ago and that it was not a literal 1000 years as promised.

"must shortly come to pass" and "for the time is at hand" misunderstood can have devastating results. Why study prophecy, when it must ALL be symbolic anyways right? Wrong! Why believe in a literal millenium as promised. The Jews and Israel are no longer important to God then right? Wrong!

      These two little statements have caused many to misunderstand the Book of Revelation and ignore the book as meaningless symbolism instead of studing the book as the Lord's Revelation to us of His future plans. This leads one to view prophecy as a waste of time, and to believe that THIS is the millenium and has been for centuries. WRONG!

     This leads to a LAZY approach to the study of Scripture, why bother to study what can be interpreted so many different ways. The Beast (Antichrist) and his #666 must be symbolic and not taken literally. Antichrist's reign of 42 literal months or 1,260 literal days can be ignored as well. Daniel's 70th week can be dismissed as well and on and on down the slippery slope you will slide. Why? all because of two statements being misunderstood. A true understanding of prophecy and all Scripture as a whole, hang in the balence of these two statements. These statements were given to show imminency, that these things would "begin" to take place shortly was to motivate the reader that the time was approaching. The letters to the seven Churches has prophetic meanings and did begin 1900 years ago so the statements were true. We've all read that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years...

     What does your interpretation do for you? Does it motivate you to study deep into Revelation or cause you to ignore the book in your studies? Do you believe in a literal 1000 year millenial kingdom?  Do you believe in the literal return of Christ? Do you study prophecy or ignore the study because it seems pointless to study it?  What effect do these verses of Scripture have on you?

      Do you understand the Book of Revelation? Do you want to? Did God waste His time giving us a detailed prophetic look at the future?

      What is the effect these words ("must shortly come to pass" and "for the time is at hand") have on you and your view of Scripture? They motivate me, and they have motivated generations before me, which was in fact their very purpose. What effect would saying "it will be at least 1900 years before the Lord Jesus Christ returns" have had? There would be NO CHURCH today. Christianity would have faded away by now.

     Do you think I'm "spinning" this or does it make some sense?

    I ask you, "what does your view do for you?"

                                                     Paul2



     

[Petro]

paul2,

Welcome back, I wondered what happened to you?

I am still interested to hear, how you define the saints at Revelation 11:18, clearly they are on the earth, and if not those, how about the saints of Rev 13:7.

How do these differ from those that make up the body of believers  (Body of Christ).

If I remember correctly you stated, the rapture occured at Rev 4 or 5, and the rest of Revelation was chronologically in order of events.

Or did I hear wrong.

Blessings,

Petro

[Paul2]

       Petro,

     As you know I believe in the Pre-Tribulation, Pre-Millenial, Rapture and completion of the Church. The Church will be completed and Raptured before the 70th week of Daniel. I believe the Bible teaches this but it requires the most study to understand it. The more one studies prophecy throughout the Bible, the more clear of a picture is painted.

 Including "purpose". There are reasons for everything that will someday occur. People who do not study prophecy will most likely be "Amillenial", believing that the Book of Revelation is figurative, symbolic, historical, that there is no 1000 year literal kingdom in Israel, no literal "Antichrist" that has a numbered time to rule (42 months, the last half of Daniel's future 70th week). They see the Book as symbolic and believe that the Kingdom is spiritual.

     Those who study a little prophecy will be mostly Post-Tribulation believers, who see the Rapture and the second coming as the same event, missing the purpose for the Rapture. They believe the Church will remain on earth and be subject to AntiChrist's wrath, not to mention the wrath of the Lamb which they somehow seem to ignore.

      Those who study further end up with "Mid- Tribulation Rapture believers. They realize that the Rapture and Second Coming of Jesus Christ to the earth are to different events, but think the Church must go through the first half of Daniel's 70th week. Why? they haven't studied enough yet. The Rapture is a mystery, a puzzle if you will.

     I want you to picture in your mind that I've made a literal puzzle out of Scriptures. There is a picture with Scripture written on top of each puzzle piece. When the puzzle is completed a complete picture will be seen under the scripture quotes. Each verse about the Second coming, the millenial kingdom, the Rapture, the Judgements, Antichrist, and all the prophecies about the end times being one piece of the puzzle independantly. Every verse is written on a seperate puzzle piece. When you start to fit more and more "pieces" of puzzle scriptures together the more clearly you start to get the picture.

     Now, picture a completed puzzle, all pieces in place and complete picture in the background. Imagine the Picture beneath the words is a pictoral timeline with the events of the endtimes , the Rapture of the Church, Antichrist, The Second Coming, ect.ect. and then imagine me taking 4 or 5 important pieces to the puzzle away. Imagine that I take the 5 most important pieces that are critical to understand the time line correctly and show someone the incompleted puzzle picture and ask them what they see. If I take away the Pre-Tribulation verses, they will see a mid-tribulation picture. If I take away a few more verses, the picture becomes Post- millenial, take away more pieces to the prophetic puzzle and the picture turns to Amillenial. Put all the pieces of scripture together correctly and the picture is Pre-Tribulation.

     The Church is completed and Raptured, Finished, prefected, and Glorified before the 70th week of Daniel begins. Those left behind that witness the Rapture with their own eyes (like people I've told about the Rapture in advance, the people who say "I'll believe it when I see it") and realize that they missed the Rapture because of unbelief, who accept Christ after the Rapture, will become "SAINTS". They will be martyred SAINTS. Saint meaning Saint as in the Old Testament Saint. Saints of the Old Testament were "led" by the Holy Spirit but NOT indwelt with the Spirit. The Church is a special Body of believers that was INdwelt by the Holy Spirit.

     The Saints of the tribulation will be led by the Holy Spirit. They are not part of the Church, but a seperate group. The Church believed without having to SEE proof. Faith and Grace belong to the Church. Tribulation Saints are different. They didn't believe by faith, they believe because it was made real to them. It was proven to them that will believe. They missed the Rapture because they couldn't believe it until they saw it. Proof and WRATH belong to the Tribulation Saints, who must be willing to surrender their lives and be Be-headed by AntiChrist rather than receive the mark of the Beast. They will be a seperate group from the Church, just as Old Testament Saints are a seperate and distinct group apart from the Church. Tribulation Saints will undergo Wrath, Daniel's 70th week, Antichrist, and most will be martyred. There are different ETERNAL DESTINIES for The Church, Old Testament Saints, and Tribulation Saints.

     I don't know what you really want answered. Explain what specifically you want addressed. I'm trying to make it clear but I'm not sure of what your question is.

                                                            Paul2

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to Paul2,

It's been some time since I studied the Rapture and the Tribulation Period in detail. I'm looking for my notes and passages of Scripture that I found very interesting. I think that one subject in this area would be very helpful to those who think that they can lose their Salvation. I'll try to get the specifics, but I bet you will know what I mean.

There are portions of Scripture that specifically deal with those who become saved during the Tribulation Period. Some use these Scriptures in attempting to prove that people can lose their Salvation, but they don't apply to the Church which is the Body of Christ that has already been Raptured. Yes, I believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. If I remember correctly, a portion taken out of context is "Those who will endure until the end." Sorry, I had a "honey-do" to take care of and will be more specific later. I'm more afraid of my wife than I am of you.  

I've always thought that absolute assurance of Salvation was and is a precious Promise of God. If you could address the Tribulation Saints, I think that you will also address the doubts some portions of Scripture cause for God's children of today who WILL NOT be here during the Tribulation Period. I'll join in with you when I find my notes and finish the "honey-do". This is a hot topic for some, but I honestly believe that doubts about Salvation makes the devil happy.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Reba]

Bep if this aint the place to ask  just remove my post  i wont be angry  

background... born and raised a dispy waiting for rapture and the great tribulation...


How is one saved through the trib? How is salvation via the trip not a second chance, or maybe you believe it is... Salvation is only through HIS blood not the blood of martors (sp) correct?

[Petro]

paul2,

I am asking you, how are the saints, which make up the body of Christ, different from the saints which are spoken of who go through the great tribulation?

Now, before you answer this question, picture yourself as a saint, reading your bible, while being hunted down in persecution during the great tribulation.

If the marriage supper of the Lamb occurs after the rapture of the saints from the earth and before the great tribulation and return of Christ to set up His millenial reign on the earth.
 
What about;

Heb 11
40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


As a saint going thru the tribulation, the promise of God would be of no effect, in this case.

That there will saints who go through the great tribulation is certain.  (Rev 13:7-10, 14:11-13)

If you are a saint and those who go through the great tribulation are Called saints at Rev 13.

In order to teach a pre-millenial rapture;

You have to teach, some saints are in the body of Christ and some are not.

How do you reconcile this idea, that some saints are in Christ  and, some are not in Christ??

Seen that those that do not make the marriage supper of the lamb, remain outside His body, .............................is not the union of the members of the body of Christ;

the perfection Heb 11:40 is speaking of??

The body of Christ is total sum of all the elect, all of the elect are called saints or is this some wild thought, that has no scriptural basis??

The biggest problem I see, with the teaching of a pre-trib rapture, is the idea of the marriage supper of the Lamb which is taught with it, I presume that when Jesus said;

But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.  Mat 26:29

He was speaking of drinking the cup at his wedding feast, in the presence of all the elect saints,  and ALL would be included at it.

Where have I gone, wrong??



Petro

[nChrist]

Bep if this aint the place to ask  just remove my post  i wont be angry  

background... born and raised a dispy waiting for rapture and the great tribulation...


How is one saved through the trib? How is salvation via the trip not a second chance, or maybe you believe it is... Salvation is only through HIS blood not the blood of martors (sp) correct?

Oklahoma Howdy to Reba,

Sister, I think this is a great question and perfect for here. You are 1000% correct that Salvation is still only through Jesus and HIS blood, not because of any persecution or death the person endures. If it's a second chance, it would be a very hard second chance. They will be hunted, tortured, and killed. I think that Paul2 has all of this information at his fingertips. I'll have to find my notes or start over.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Reba]

Does not the OT look  forward  to the Cross are we not to look back to the Cross?

The Cross of Christ is the center of all correct?

Are we now to look to a time of tribulation for salvation?

Col 1:20

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
KJV

Col 2:14

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
KJV

Heb 12:1-2
12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
KJV
  ( cross meaning the death ressurection the whole enchilada)

[Paul2]

      Petro,

    Lets take this one point at at time to avoid confusion.

    You mentioned the "elect". The "elect" are "elected" to something and thats a good place to start. The "elect are elected to Salvation and Eternal life. Lets not add anymore to the "elect" other than election to Salvation and Eternal life.

    Would that definition of the elect, cover the Old Testament Saints, who were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit? Yes. Would that defintion cover the 144,000 witnesses from the 12 tribes of Israel? Yes. Would that definition cover the Church? Yes. Would that definition cover Tribulation Saints? Yes. So far using the definition of the "Elect" as "elected unto Salvation and Eternal life" fits all the different groups that will receive Salvation and Eternal life.

    There is a difference between Old Testament Saints and the Church. The Church is the body of Christ. Old Testament Saints are not part of the body of Christ. The body of Christ is "indwelt with the Holy Spirit, Old Testament Saints were not. Old Testament Saints had an earthly Temple where sacrifices were offered. The Church has no earthly Temple and doesn't offer sacrifices because the Church is the Temple, Church Saints are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, resulting in our bodies becoming the Temple of the Holy Spirit. The Church offers no sacrifice because Jesus is the Sacrifice that ended all other sacrifices. There is a difference between Old Testament Saints and the Church Saints, they can not be lumped together as the body of Christ, they are different entirely.

    The 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel are seperate and distinct from the Church. They serve a different role than the Church, and have their own special eternal destiny. They are also seperate from the Old Testament Saints, a group all to themselves.

    Not all those who receive Salvation and Eternal life are part of the Church, the body of Christ. Old Testament Saints are not part of the Church, never were, never will be. Their destiny is the 1000 year earthly millenial kingdom, before Eterity begins.

     Problems arise when you add to much to the meaning of the "elect" and when you try to make all who receive Salvation and Eternal life part of the body of Christ, the Church.

     I'll continue on in my next post.

                                                          Paul2

[Paul2]

     Black-Eyed-Pees,

       Tom, find your notes and lets settle this contraversal subject of the Tribulation Saints.There are so many passages to consider this is indeed a major challenging study. When ever Israel (the nation) is considered to be spiritually the Church, or whenever Old Testament Saints are considered to be part of the Church things fall apart fast. So many topics come into place, Salvation, once saved always saved, the elect, pre-destination, free will, grace, wrath, Rapture, Second Coming, Millenium and the list just gets bigger and bigger the deeper we go. Many prophecies have more than one literal meaning.

     A difficult study for sure but also worth the effort. Find your notes and we'll go through the Scriptures, in the search of the truth.

                                                 Paul2