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Ambassador4Christ
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« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2003, 03:01:13 PM »

Your doing a GRRRREAT Job Brother Paul2
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Galatians 4:16   Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
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« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2003, 06:15:45 PM »

paul2,

Yes there is alot of questions which need to be reconciled with the teaching.

But, lets take it one at a time.

Can you define who are the saints?

And who are the Elect?

And are they one and the same?

Is the wrath of the dragon the ole serpent called the Devil and Satan of Rev 12:8-17, the same wrath of God, brought upon the earth with the coming of the Day of the Lord?


Blessings,

Petro

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« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2003, 07:32:00 PM »


Everything is now in place for our Lord to return. Nothing more must be accomplished. Israel has returned to the Holy Land and Jerusalem. Those unfulfilled prophecies like the Temple being rebuilt will be done in the 7 year tribulation period. Mat 25:10  And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.”
  Old Timer is right. The seven letters to the seven churches of Revelation are Three fold.
    First they were letters to the Seven real churches in those locations of that time period.
   Second they are letters to the universal church of the age of Grace. They contain a message for each person who is Christian.
   Third they represent the different time periods of the Church until the Rapture.

   We are in the time period of two churches in the letters of Revelation now. Philidelphia is the true church of the age now.
Philidelphia will be Raptured. Laodicea is the false church of the age now. Laodicea will be vomited out of the body of Christ and remain behind at the Rapture to enter into the Tribulation as the whore of Revelation 17. Laodicea is a false Church that professes Christianity and Jesus but distorts the truth of the Gospel. They can not be digested into the body of Christ and must be vomited out.

    The true Church of Philidelphia is the church that gives out the word of God. Old Timer used the passage of the wedding feast. When the door was shut. To the church of Philidelphia the Door is open.

Revelation 3:7  "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
   8: I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
   9: Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
  10: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    Philidelphia is Raptured at the voice like a trumpet from Jesus in Revelation 4:1. Laodicea is vomited out and left behind.

    Revelation 3: 14: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
   15: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
   16: So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

    The 24 Elders are the representatives of the Church Age. We are in the crowd after the Rapture and witness these events in the verses below. We are the redeemed!

Revelation 5:8 "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
   9: And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
   10: And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.



                                         The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2  Cool


"Those unfulfilled prophecies like the Temple being rebuilt will be done in the 7 year tribulation period. Mat 25:10"  

Will not the building of the temple be an abomination to God since the true is in heaven, and the earthly temple was just a shadow of the true, into which Christ has gone into the true holy of holies to plead for us?

Just a wondering thought and response to "oldtimers" quote.
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« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2003, 12:17:19 AM »

ollie,

The rebuilding of then Temple at Jerusalem is probably is what brings on the Tribulation of the nations on the earth.

One of the characteristics of the millenial reign of Christ is the rebuilding of the Temple (Ezek 37:26-28, Ezek 40-48 (chaps), Hag 2:7-9, oel 3:18)

And the revival of the sacrificial system (Ezeik 43:13-27, 45:13-25, Isa 56:7)

Will it be an abomination to God, that the Nation of Israel, rebuilds the temple??,

Building the building itself is not a sin, however, sacrificing and worshipping in it is what will make it an abomination, but it
could be this does not occur, since this is probably the reason for th Lords return, to keep his elect from being partakers in the sin of the nation. It is hard to say, their lack of worship to the known God, in itself is enough to keep Israel spiritually dead.  So sacrificing animals is just another sin heaped upon their sin of unbelief.

But this whole program centers around Israel from this time on, because God has set His heart to save His remanent from the Nation.   And He will do it.


Blessings,

Petro

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« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2003, 01:00:50 AM »

Quote
paul2 reply #16

Petro,

Thats quite a list of questions...

the word "tribulation" refers to every day trials and tribulations. The "Great Tribulation" is a specific time period of Judgment, which includes the "wrath of the Lamb".

Paul2

"Wrath of the Lamb" at Rev 6:16-17, so would you agree this is the rapture day which you tie with 1 Th 5:2, "Day of the Lord??"

Please reconcile the questions I asked in my first post, concerning words "tribulation" and "wrath", and "evil" and "wrath".

I just don't see how we can continue without defining these apparent discrepancies in misinterpretation these of words.


Blessings,

Petro
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« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2003, 10:13:18 AM »

ollie,

The rebuilding of then Temple at Jerusalem is probably is what brings on the Tribulation of the nations on the earth.

One of the characteristics of the millenial reign of Christ is the rebuilding of the Temple (Ezek 37:26-28, Ezek 40-48 (chaps), Hag 2:7-9, oel 3:18)

And the revival of the sacrificial system (Ezeik 43:13-27, 45:13-25, Isa 56:7)

Will it be an abomination to God, that the Nation of Israel, rebuilds the temple??,

Building the building itself is not a sin, however, sacrificing and worshipping in it is what will make it an abomination, but it
could be this does not occur, since this is probably the reason for th Lords return, to keep his elect from being partakers in the sin of the nation. It is hard to say, their lack of worship to the known God, in itself is enough to keep Israel spiritually dead.  So sacrificing animals is just another sin heaped upon their sin of unbelief.

But this whole program centers around Israel from this time on, because God has set His heart to save His remanent from the Nation.   And He will do it.


Blessings,

Petro



ollie,

As I thought on this very thing, concerning the Jews, the temple, and so on, I remembered the verses of Deut 30,

Whereby after the blessings and the curses were to come upon them, the promise from God with open arms, still stands if they returned to the LORD their God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that He commanded them on that  day, they and their children, with all their heart, and with all their soul;  (Duet 30)

And since they are presently blinded, all they have is the Law of Moses to guide them back to God.

I guess from our perspective, we are unable to understand this whole matter, it is evident by simply examining history, that God has had compassion on them, since He has gathered and fetched them from all the nations of the world (although this process is still occuring).

It is clear to me, they are still blind as it concerns the Gospel of the Lord, but then again, and I also understand that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (Rom 11:25), but knowing God, looks at the heart, to what extent, they have truned to Him, can only be measured by what we see.

And what we see is a nation, which was resurrected in 1948.

Actually, it is hard to say, whether their desire to rebuild the tmple is considered an abomination to God, especially since He is the one who has given them, these words of hope for them as a nation.  They do these things because of hardness of heart.

But, we know that when their heart turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away;

2Cor 3
15  But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.
16  Nevertheless when it (their heart) shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.
17  Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Was it necessary for all of them to seek Gods face, and turn back to Him, after the atrocities of wwII??

Or was it sufficient that a remanent do it??

This is the $63,000,000 question...


Blessings,

Petro

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« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2003, 11:52:12 AM »

{quote] paul2 reply #16
The "Day of the Lord" has many meanings in Scripture, it has been used to describe many things. Heres some examples:

Ezekiel 30:2  "Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Howl ye, Woe worth the day
  3: For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.
  4: And the sword shall come upon Egypt, and great pain shall be in Ethiopia, when the slain shall fall in Egypt, and they shall take away her multitude, and her foundations shall be broken down."

      If you continue reading the passages in Ezekiel 30, you find that Nebuchadnezzar is mentioned.

Ezekiel 30:9  "In that day shall messengers go forth from me in ships to make the careless Ethiopians afraid, and great pain shall come upon them, as in the day of Egypt: for, lo, it cometh.
  10: Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will also make the multitude of Egypt to cease by the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon.
  11: He and his people with him, the terrible of the nations, shall be brought to destroy the land: and they shall draw their swords against Egypt, and fill the land with the slain.

      As you can see by the verses above the "Day of the Lord" was used to describe God's judgment by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar.

2 Peter 3:10  "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

      It seems Peter is using the "Day of the Lord" to describe the Rapture ("But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night") and then also describes the destruction of the heavens and earth after the Millenium which is found in Revelation 21: 1: And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
  2: And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
  3: And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
  4: And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

    Paul uses the "Day of the Lord" to mean the end of the age of Grace which is the Day of the Rapture.

1 Thessalonians 5:2  "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

    Bottom line is the "Day of the Lord" has many meanings and it takes deep searching to determine which meaning to apply to "the Day of the Lord" where ever it is used.
Quote



Paul2,

Precisely, I agree.....

And this is the problem with trying to fit a pre trib rapture into a timeline, here is three passages of scripture, are they all one event or three different events, can you say for sure, whether they are what you interpret them to be.


Here they are:

Acts 2
24  But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25  And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.  (see Joel 3:31)

When does this take Place??  In relation to the rapture??

Or, Is it the same event recorded in Rev 6:12-13?

Mk 13
24  But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25  And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.    ( see the parallel passages  Mat 24:29-30 and Lk 21:25)

Is this event in the same one in view with  Acts 2:19-20, see also, Joel 3:18??

If it is,  is  it after the Tribulation, or  before, or in the middle of the trib.??

Where is the rapture in relation to these verses.

Rev 6
12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.



But the prophet Zecariah writes about this same event at chapter 14;

3  Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4  And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. (sounds like an earthquake)
5  And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8  And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9  And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Boy, I tell you, these sounds like the same event (ONE) to me,  spoken by Jhn at Rev 6, Jesus at Mat 24:29-30, and  Dr. Lukes account of Jesus same words at Acts 2:19-20.

Please note that (Rev 6:12-13, it together with 1 Th 5:2)  is the rapture which , you already established to have taken place back at Rev 4, yet two seals have been opened, before the day of the wrath of the Lamb comes on the earth.

Connect this to my previous reply #10, and there is a lot of scriptural  explaining and reconciling to do.

Wouldn't you agree??

Blessings, Petro
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« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2003, 04:39:10 PM »

Quote
4  And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. (sounds like an earthquake)

Here is a possibly not relevant, but interesting non-the-less bit of info.  The mount of olives is said to contain the only verticle fault line in the world.

Just a fun little fact!    Wink

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2003, 12:13:19 AM »

I want to point out that Zecariah 14:3-9 is not the end of the millenial reign, but the begining of it.

And it is precisely on this day that the period of time refered to as the Day of the Lord , which includes the 1000 year reign of Jesus begins on the earth.

Anybody have any ideas??  How this can be reconciled with the pre/mid trib rapture theory??

Clearly this is after the great tribulation, if one believes Acts 2, Mark 23..

Blessings,

Petro
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« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2003, 03:39:21 PM »

Quote
And it is precisely on this day that the period of time refered to as the Day of the Lord , which includes the 1000 year reign of Jesus begins on the earth.

Anybody have any ideas??  How this can be reconciled with the pre/mid trib rapture theory??

Clearly this is after the great tribulation, if one believes Acts 2, Mark 23..

One thing I notice in Rev 6 is...

Rev 6:12-17
12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"


All these people are hiding from the Lord.  If this covers all the men on the earth, why would His church be hiding?  These sound like ungodly and fearful people to me.  

In Matthew it says...

Matt 16:18
18  And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Yet we read in Revelation...

Rev 13:4-7
4  Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?"
5  The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months.
6  He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven.
7  He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
(NIV)

A contradiction?  How can the Antichrist/Satan have gates that stand up against the Church?  Or are these saints not part of the Church/age that is possibly been raptured, but rather saints like the OT saints?  

Also in Matthew...

Matt 24:3
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

Jesus covers a lot of territory in the rest of this chapter.  Signs about things about to happen, his return, as well as the END of the age.

Matt 24:29-31
29  "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
30  "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
31  And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

[Who is the elect?  Anyone done a word study on this?]
All men will see him!  As opposed to...

Matt 24:40-42
40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.
41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
42 "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.


Also....

Matt 24:48-50
48  But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,'
49  and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards.
50  The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of.

2 things jump out at me here.  
1. He is a servant, allbeit a wicked servant. (He knows the master)
2. There seems to be drinking and rioting.  Pretty contrast to Rev during the opening of the seals.


For me, the biggest clue is the endless warnings to watch for evidence of his return, for we do not know.  If tribulation begins, we will know almost to the day.  Gods wrath is a last ditch effort to save man, and cause some to repent.  There are even pauses during the wrath, almost as if God is waiting to see how man is responding.  No reason for the true church to endure this.  The true church is already washed in the blood of the lamb.   Of course God is wiser than me, and will do as he pleases  Smiley   Like I have said in previous posts, theres enough scripture to build an argument for both pre and post trib views.  I still think the pre-trib case is better equiped to answer the difficult passages.  Not all, but most.

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2003, 06:59:59 PM »

Could you give an URL ?

tnx


Oklahoma Howdy to Brother Paul2,

Twobombs is asking for an Internet address. I guess he thinks there is more of your work or a debate somewhere other than Christians Unite.

Thanks for your work. I'm going to go slow with this and study as you and others post. This is a very difficult topic.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2003, 09:06:14 PM »

Quote
And it is precisely on this day that the period of time refered to as the Day of the Lord , which includes the 1000 year reign of Jesus begins on the earth.

Anybody have any ideas??  How this can be reconciled with the pre/mid trib rapture theory??

Clearly this is after the great tribulation, if one believes Acts 2, Mark 23..

One thing I notice in Rev 6 is...

Rev 6:12-17
12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"


All these people are hiding from the Lord.  If this covers all the men on the earth, why would His church be hiding?  These sound like ungodly and fearful people to me.  

2 d Tim,

One at a time here,

If there are Christians among these at Rev 6:15-17, they obviously are not looking for the Lords return, and all these who seek to be hidden from the face of Him who sits on the Throne (God the Father), and the Wrath of the Lamb (Jesus the Lamb of God) NOTare the elect of Mat 24:22.

Now, there is a sin that so easily besets Christians, and it's root cause is unbelief, so it is possible that there may be Christians that are uncertain of their salvation, just as there are among us today, those who claim Christ but really do not believe His Words.

In my opinion these are an enigma, but the Word does tell us there are some that suffer from this particular sin (Heb 12:1), and it is easy for me to understand how that a weak christian could be discouraged and live in fear. especially after experiencing the tribulation on the earth, ending with the Great Day of the Lord.

This is why it is imperitive to study and to learn Gods Word with the goal of  strengthening ones faith in the knowledge of the promises of God to His elect.

How does this square up with Gods Word?

For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.  (2 Tim 1:7)


Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. (1 Cor 2:12)

It is important to get the order of things right, so that when the preplexing days come upon the World, Christians will not be running to and fro, as Jesus warned His Apostles at;

Mat 24
4   Take heed that no man deceive you.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Now I ask you, read this verses above carefully, and then ask yourself, will there be Christians on the earth, during the time of verses 21 and 22, note that His return at verse 29, is earmarked by heavenly signs, the sun and moon.

Blessings,

Petro

« Last Edit: December 15, 2003, 09:15:19 PM by Petro » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2003, 12:13:54 AM »

Quote
In Matthew it says...

Matt 16:18
18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Yet we read in Revelation...

Rev 13:4-7
4 Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?"
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months.
6 He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven.
7 He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
(NIV)

A contradiction? How can the Antichrist/Satan have gates that stand up against the Church? Or are these saints not part of the Church/age that is possibly been raptured, but rather saints like the OT saints?

2d Tim,

It should not be a secret to Gods people, that God tries His people, He tested Job (surely you know the story), He tested Abraham, actually the word is TRIED, (Heb 11:17) and in the rest if Hebrews 11, we read of other men of faith who overcame by their Faith, and then we read at  

Rev 12
9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Rev 13, follows Rev 12 clearly, what appears defeat for Gods people makes a rapture looks pretty good, for christians that are use to an easy life, not much in the way of sacrificing anything, here in this country, rather than giving of ourselves, we would rather give money and let someone else, give of themselves to Gods work.  

So naturally, there is an incentive to want to see a rapture before tough times come upon them that dwell on the earth.

But this should not be the driving factor in trying to learn the truth of this matter.

What is interesting is that if we continue reading Rev 12, we read at verse;

12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The tribulation on the earth could very well be attributed to the Serpents wrath, brought upon the earth (vs 12) because his time is short.

Now I know many will say, the seed of the woman means the Nation of Israel, but the answer is in the verse which focuses on the woman;


13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Can anyone show who this woman is?


Blessings,

Petro
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« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2003, 03:17:03 AM »

Lets start here

Quote
Rev 12
17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The tribulation on the earth could very well be attributed to the Serpents wrath, brought upon the earth (vs 12) because his time is short.

Now I know many will say, the seed of the woman means the Nation of Israel, but the answer is in the verse which focuses on the woman;

13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Can anyone show who this woman is?

I will take a stab at this.....If you back up to verse 1 in the same chapter, there are some clues as to who the women is.  

Rev 12:1
1 A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

See Genesis 37:9-11 - describes these same symbols used here in Rev, in Joseph's dream.  The moon is the mother, the sun is the father, and the 11 stars are his 11 brothers not including himself.  Sounds to me like the 12 tribes of Israel.

Rev continued...
2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.
...
5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

These 2 verses leave little doubt this is speaking of Jesus (rules with an iron scepter, snatched up to Gods throne), who came from the women.  Comparing Joseph's dream to the verses in Revelation, it seems to me like the woman is indeed the Nation of Israel.  


Quote
It should not be a secret to Gods people, that God tries His people, He tested Job (surely you know the story), He tested Abraham, actually the word is TRIED, (Heb 11:17) and in the rest if Hebrews 11, we read of other men of faith who overcame by their Faith,

I would agree with this, and I too can see how that would be possible by allowing the church to go through the trib.  I am trying to keep an open mind here, as I am hopefull this discussion will lead to better understanding of end-time prophecies one way or the other.

I'm gonna stop here for tonight, as I am getting tired.  Will try to get to your other post sometime tomorrow.

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2003, 11:23:30 AM »

2d Tim,

you said;

Quote
2d tim reply#30
 will take a stab at this.....If you back up to verse 1 in the same chapter, there are some clues as to who the women is.  

Rev 12:1
1 A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

See Genesis 37:9-11 - describes these same symbols used here in Rev, in Joseph's dream.  The moon is the mother, the sun is the father, and the 11 stars are his 11 brothers not including himself.  Sounds to me like the 12 tribes of Israel.

Rev continued...
2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.


This is the way, men begin, new religions, with themselves at its head.

How do you connect the woman standing on the moon, being the moon and then the pregnant mother of eleven.??


Blessings,

Petro

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