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« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2003, 11:11:26 AM »

 Paul 2 wrote:
Quote
"The Jews missed the fact that Jesus Christ was to come twice, first as the Lamb, then as the Loin. They expected the Lion and missed the Lamb."

Question:
How can Christ, who's mercy and grace are the saving attributes, rapture a "bride" , become a LION pouring out wrath, AND AT THE SAME TIME STILL BE THE MERCIFUL SAVIOUR OF THE TRIBULATION SAINTS? This theory is FALSE DOCTRINE!

You have to keep making up facts and convoluting the scripture to MAKE IT FIT!  

Paul did NOT reveal "it" He believed in one return of Christ NOT TWO.  He said himself
1 Cor 15:23,24
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

AND THIS:
2 Thes 2:3
3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

No one wants to go through the great tribulation OR ANY tribulation, we are creatures of comfort.  But the Lord WILL PURIFY HIS PEOPLE AND HIS PRIESTHOOD, and tribulation will work the patience needed to endure to the end, as it is written over and over again in the Revelation.

Romans 5
3  And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4  And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5  And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. Herein lies the patience of the saints.  

8 times in Revelation this is said:
 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith"

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For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? Romans 11:15
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« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2003, 08:34:15 AM »

     Why isn't  the word "Church" used in the Book of Revelation from chapter 4 to 19? Because its in heaven during that time.

     You don't have to believe it, you can start making up your survival kit, if I didn't believe in the Rapture I'd be scared, filled with fear of God's wrath, not hoping for His return.

      It must be a scary world for those who believe as you do, considering Israel seeks the peace that leads to Daniel's 70th week and the great tribulation.
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« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2003, 09:34:50 AM »

Quote
   Why isn't  the word "Church" used in the Book of Revelation from chapter 4 to 19? Because its in heaven during that time.

It has been a while sinse of read Revelation. So please, show me the part of Rev 3 that talks about the Rapture.
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« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2003, 01:04:59 PM »

I don't understand what's the big deal here ? Post/pre-Trib views differ 7 years at a max in physical time.

My absolute maximum variation is 30 years (generation 40 -70 years) so what is the big deal with those sesen years ?

The last time the Jewish spring Feasts were fulfilled, they were only days apart, so chances are the same thing will happen with the Fall feasts...  

On the other hand I personally experienced the rapture in connection with Dan 12:1, indicating a pre-trib rapture....

But those 7 years are short even in the eyes of us, mere mortals....  (that inherited everlasting conciousness with Christ)

I find it only interesting when, a period marked by a beginning; found in the bible and the end, also very well described in the scriptures.

I am interested in placing those biblical markers in space-time; a day, year and when possible an hour.

Simple
« Last Edit: December 04, 2003, 01:07:16 PM by twobombs » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2003, 02:51:06 PM »

I like the parable about the Virgins in Matthew 25:1  As I am sure most prophecy freeks know about the Hebrew wedding ceremony story...for the benefit of others here it is.

Quote
When a young Jew male comes to the house of a prospective bride and meets with the father of the bride. They negotiate a price. If the father accepts the offer, the young couple drink a benediction which the father offers of wine. The couple are married in Spirit. The groom goes away to prepare a place but the bride doesn't know when He'll return. He has gone back to his fathers house to prepare a place for her. When he comes back it is usually at night with a shout "make way for the bride groom cometh" and the sound of the trump. He does not enter the house but waits in the street, the bride and her brides maids come out and the friends of the groom surround them and go back to his fathers house. He and her enter the Hoppa they consummate the marriage physically. He rejoins the celebration and she remains protected, hidden... in the hoppa for seven days.

Of course the parable about the 10 virgins brings the point home.   5 were wise bringing oil to keep the lamps burning.  The other 5 only brought lamps without oil.  The lamps are outward showing of light.  The oil is the grace or spirit of God.  Those who brought their lamps without oil only have an outward religious appearance, those who brought oil have the fullness of Gods spirit and will be able to see the bridegroom when he arrives.  When the Bridegroom retrieves the bride, they return to the fathers house, which I believe will be the wedding supper of the lamb.   There is no labor and such during this week of feasting.  I don't see how the a post trib rapture agrees with this.  The Bridegroom comes collects the bride, then immediately comes back down to earth.  Doesn't seem to jive.  God has always provided an escape for his people during times of judgement.  Granted believers do suffer, but are never subjected to Gods own Wrath!

I think the important thing to note, is that he is returning for those who are watching for him.  The church may be sleepy as all 10 Virgins were, but a wakeup call from the guard will alert those who are expecting him

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2003, 10:16:18 PM »

        2nd Timothy, that last post was great.

      Two Bombs, although the difference in views may be only 7 years, theres a profound difference in the effect they have on people. Are you looking for Jesus Christ or Antichrist?

     Do you long for His coming or hope He waits until your dead for fear of Antichrist? Do you wish it were today? I have no fear of the Antichrist or Great Tribulation because I know for a Biblical fact that I am not predestined to experience either. I am predestined to be in Heaven witnessing the events recorded in Revelation chapter 4 immediately after the Rapture. I was chosen to be there before the world was created by the grace and mercy of God only. I was in the crowd before God's throne when John was witnessing it. John saw the Church in Heaven with the crowns from the Bema Judgement seat, and I was there. John saw into our future, and told us our destiny was to witness Jesus open the seven sealed scroll, that we would witness the events of Revelation 4-22 with Jesus.

      John saw the Church in Heaven before the great Tribulation begins. I know where I'll be when Jesus takes the 7 sealed scroll from the Father, I'll be in the crowd before the throne. I don't know where I'll be tomorrow, but I know where I'll be on the day Revelation 4 is fulfilled.

 Tibby what does this mean to you?

Revelation 3:8: "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
   9: Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
   10: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Revelation 4: 1: After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

    heres the most important verse in the Book of Revelation!

Revelation 1:19: "Write the things which thou hast seen, (the vision of chapter 1) and the things which are, (things pertaining to the Church age, Church things) and the things which shall be hereafter; (things which take place AFTER the Church age is ended by the Rapture)

    If you miss the meaning of Revelation 1:19 you can not fully understand the Book of Revelation. John followed the format Jesus gave him when writing the book and we need to follow that format to understand the book.

     When you read the words "Things which shall be hereafter" consider hereafter what? Hereafter the present tense Church things "which are". Hereafter the Church is Raptured, changing the tense from present to future. John was called to Heaven in Revelation 4:1 to witness the REAL EVENT of Revelation 4:1, The trumpet like voice of Jesus Christ Rapturing His Church. The 24 elders are crowned and representatives of the Church acting as priests before Jesus Christ our High Priest.


                                          the Pre-Trib. View by Paul2 Cool


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« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2003, 10:27:21 PM »

Paul2,

Thanks Brother!

I long for HIS COMING!

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2003, 05:30:43 AM »

Hi Paul2,

I find problems with the pre-trib rapture that can be solved in a very elegant manner. ( they are not problems, actually. they were called 'problems' because of my ignorance Smiley )

The 'problem' is the Jew, the believing Jew I might add. Will he/she be raptured with the church, or will he/she stay here ?
Or: someone that is not aware that he or she is an descendant of Abraham yet is a fervent believer in Christ. (As it is naturally for he or she, as his/her line is Jewish)

There is another 'problem', let's say I am a very devote Christian (this time from the wild olive tree; a ' heathen' believer) This Christian has a cause for the Jewish people; insomuch that he/she even wants to move to the Holy place but at least stay with them until the End of the Age, wil they both be raptured or not ?

I believe that they might not be raptured and have a choice as it is written :

Hbr 11:35b     [....] and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

The more I thought of it the more I knew that this is a mystery.
For me it is easier on the mind/heart to grasp this as I know what I might miss those 7 years, 'missing' the rapture of the church yet also receiving glory; maybe as a martyr or as one that will be translated at the visible second coming of Christ.

The above is the true reason why I have kept this from this discussion until now, it not because of theological reasons I do not worry about 7 years; I do believe in the pre-trib rapure (ergo: I believe in the harvest of the wild olive tree [shortly] before the nurtured one)

Let's give an example to explain myself once more :
Zec 12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify [themselves] against Judah.

Evenmore the following verses speak at what day this shall be fullfilled :

Zec 12:8     In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David [shall be] as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

I hope I do not need to remind the reader
Dan 12:1     And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Zechariah continues;
Zec 12:9     And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10     And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

Remember Zech 12:7 ; Judah is already 'raised', 12:8-10 continues with the house of David.

The fact of the matter is: do we have a choice at the rapture to be taken or not ?

Hebrews 11:35b indicates we might have that choice.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2003, 06:18:39 AM by twobombs » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2003, 09:47:41 AM »

    Hi Two bombs,

     First of all, Jews, who have accepted Christ are part of the Church and also are the "remnant" of Israel. They will be raptured.

     The Church has different destiny than those who are to become Tribulation Saints. The Churches dwelling place is the New Jerusalem, prepared for us by Jesus (see John 14:3).

      The Tribulation Saints and old testament Saints are destined to dwell on the earth.

       The Church is glorified at the Rapture, and can not be tempted to rebel ever again. At the end of the Millenium Satan is released to test those who have not been glorified, the survivors of the Great Tribulation, whos lives have been extended by Jesus removing the curse but they will be tested by Satan again and sadly many will chose to follow Satan's rebellion again.

      The Church has a special destiny with a purpose involved, Jesus is not just sparing us from wrath but bringing us to Himself to the place he prepared for us, where we will receive our new assignments. The church in Heaven won't be sitting around playing harps, we will be given assignments to carry out for the Lord. We are qualifing for those new assignments now on earth, what we do now effects our eternal destiny.

      I don't know about you, but I don't want to be tested by Satan again when he is released after the Millenium. I don't want to be stuck living on earth, when I can be a citizen of the New Jerusalem perpared for the Church.

     To wish to remain behind at the Rapture seems to be saying to God, "you made a mistake, I don't want the destiny you chose for me, I don't want to be with you in the place you perpared for me, I'd rather stay on earth and take my chances when Satan is allowed to test those who survived the Great Tribulation and entered the Millenium."

      I love the destiny I have been called to, I want citizenship in the New Jerusalem, I want to be glorified and given an assigned purpose for which I was created for.

      Do you love Jesus enough to want to be with him at His calling for you, or does this corrupt earth and this sinful life have more appeal?

      Would you rather be the "Bride" of Christ, which is the Church, or the "friend of the BrideGroom" which are Tribulation Saints? Friends of the BrideGroom don't live with the Bridegroom in the New Jerusalem, but the Bride, the Church does!

                                                    Paul2
« Last Edit: December 07, 2003, 10:04:08 AM by Paul2 » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2003, 01:38:01 PM »

Hi Paul2,

You are correct when I view myself as a guest on the feast of the Lord. That is because I have reasons to believe that the New Jerusalem is the bride, not the church.

As such I indeed do not care about my rank in this; I know that i will be raptured, and apparently the day will be when Dan 12:1 and 12:6 are fullfilled.

I am toying with the concept of the order of resurection; I do have my reasons as I believe our salvation is earned very easy when you compare with the Jews and the trib saints....

FYI
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« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2003, 01:50:34 PM »

Unholy heresy, Batman! Itís Gnosticism!

GnahGnahGnahGnahGnahGnahGnahGnah
GnahGnahGnahGnahGnahGnahGnahGnah
Gnosticism!

 Wink
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« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2003, 03:18:11 PM »

Hi Paul2,

You are correct when I view myself as a guest on the feast of the Lord. That is because I have reasons to believe that the New Jerusalem is the bride, not the church.

As such I indeed do not care about my rank in this; I know that i will be raptured, and apparently the day will be when Dan 12:1 and 12:6 are fullfilled.

I am toying with the concept of the order of resurection; I do have my reasons as I believe our salvation is earned very easy when you compare with the Jews and the trib saints....

FYI

    Hi Two Bombs,
       I don't understand. You believe the place prepared for US is the bride? Jesus is going to marry a city he created? The New Jerusalem is the home of the Bride, the church, created by our bridegroom, Christ, for us, His bride. the church.

       As for Daniel 12, those resurrected onto life will be the Old testament Saints and Tribulation Saints, raised from the dead at the "second coming" not the Rapture. Those resurrected onto death will not be raised until the Great White Throne Judgment after the Millenium, and thrown into the lake of fire.

      The Rapture and the Second Coming are not the same event, they are seperated by a minimum of 2,520 days.

      Imagine if the Lord Raptured His Church right now, and the next thing you know your face to face with Jesus. And Jesus asks you, "what were you doing when I called you up here?" I could answer " I was discussing your imminent return at the Rapture, trying to explain that you could come and take the Church out of this world at any time." How many of you would have to answer," I was denying your imminent return, trying to explain that you couldn't take the Church out of the world at any time because the Church must go through the Great Tribulation and be presecuted by Antichrist before you could come." Sadly some of you will have to face him and explain why.

       Who are the 24 elders of Revelation 4-5 and why do they have crowns? Read the King James version of Revelation 4-5 because it differs greatly from other versions.

                                                    Paul2

PS.  We haven't earned our Salvation at all, we don't deserve it, it was a unmerited gift of Grace and Mercy. When you said "earned very easy" you seem to assume you deserve it, then you seem to question whether or not your deserving enough of escaping the wrath. We all deserve the wrath, not one of us qualifies for anything else. It was Jesus christ who saved us by His Grace and Mercy, unmerited by anythiung we have done. You and I deserve wrath not mercy but Jesus decided we would receive unmerited Grace, Mercy, Salvation and Rapture to be with Him so who can argue with that or want to for that matter! I'm just thankful that a wrech like me found Grace and Mercy through Jesus Christ and will be Raptured even though I deserve Hell fire.

                                                        Paul2
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« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2003, 04:37:37 PM »

Hi Paul,

Exept for Moses, Eliah and Enoch all the OT saints were resurrected in :
Mat 27:52   And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,  
Mat 27:53   And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.  

The New Jerusalem is described very vivid in :
Rev 21:2   And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.  

Hereby I witness myself:
And I, Aryan, saw the city the New Jerusalem, from God in which both saints and angels dwelt.

You might understand that I have absolutely no problem with John calling the NJ prepared as a bride...

You see Paul2; I paid my experience in heaven almost with my own life, and therefore I cannot deny it...
With respect to your faith, no earthly doctrine can change that; I am not a bride-church believer, I hope you can live with that Smiley
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« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2003, 05:35:35 PM »

Quote
Paul2 reply #16
I am thankful for your desire to witness for the Lord, this is what we all should strive to do.

In reading through the thread, I came across this statement;
{quote]
Why isn't the word "Church" used in the Book of Revelation from chapter 4 to 19? Because its in heaven during that time
Now while this may be true, the word church is not the only word the relates to Gods congregation known as the church, the church can also be reffered to as the assembly, or the body of Christ and the word congregation definitely cannot be ruled out.

Congregation refers to a group people gathered for a common cause,or purpose, especially a religious purpose (Ex 12:3, Acts 13:43).  In the OT congregation often reffered to the entire Hebrew people, also called the people of Israel. Just as we have local congregations of believers today, congregation sometimes meant s specific group of believers, in a speciifc place.
Now, consider the prophet Joel;
Joel begins at chapter 2, (while there are elements that refer to the Babylonian destruction, the Day of the Lord specifically is an end times prophecy) by a call to battle sounding the alarm for the day of the Lord is at hand, this is refering to the earthly return of the Lord, at the end of the Great Tribulation, Jesus refers to this day at Mat 24:29-31.
Joel 2, speaking of the Day of the Lord, notice the prophecy;
1  Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
2  A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
3  A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
4  The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
5  Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
6  Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
7  They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
8  Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
9  They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
10  The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

And when we read further down at verses 15,
Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
16  Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
17  Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?

Clearly this is not just speaking of the people of Israel, since a sacred assembly of all classes of people (signified by the word whosoever" at the end of the passage at verse 32, who shall be delivered.

Delivered from what??  The wrath, poured out upon the earth in the Day of the Lord, note what Zepheniah says;

Zep 14  The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15  That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
While Revelation does give us some insight into the end times, Isa, Ezekiel, Amos, Joel, Daniel and others give much unsight into the ends times, and clearly, just as the word trinity or bible is not found in scripture, just because the word chuirch is not mentioned in Rev from the 4th chapter onward, this does not discount members of the body being present on the earth in those days.
So I wouldn't discount the church being on earth during the Tribulation, just because, God promises to keep us from the hour of His wrath on the earth.
The explanation of the Bridegroom beating up the bride, before the marriage, sounds like a good explanation for a rapture prior to the coming tribulation upon the earth, but it is just simply a man made logically reasoned excuse for not wanting to experience the testing of ones faith, and yet we read that God tests and chasteneth those whom he loves.
Either way, whether here or there, let us continue in doing good, and above all else preaching the good news of the gospel to every creature.

God Bless,
Petro
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« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2003, 07:46:30 PM »

     Petro,

     You should know me better by now. I have many, many reasons for claiming the Rapture of the Church is before the 70th week. I've never counted but I'll bet theres at least a hundred reasons, I'll do a study soon and see how many reasons I can find. Remember that you won't find the rapture mystery in the Old Testament because the Church itself was still a mystery.

                                      Paul2
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