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Paul2
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« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2003, 08:33:42 PM »

Hi Paul,

Exept for Moses, Eliah and Enoch all the OT saints were resurrected in :
Mat 27:52   And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,  
Mat 27:53   And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

    Many bodies of the Saints arose, but how can you say "all"?
Those that did arise were "first fruits", Daniel is still sleeping, as far as I can tell from Scripture.

Quote
The New Jerusalem is described very vivid in :
Rev 21:2   And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.  

     "Prepared as "A" bride seems to convey a comparison of the city to "A" bride adorned for her husband. To convey that the Holy city is the bride, it should read like this: prepared as "THE" bride adorned for her husband. If it were stated like that it would be easier to argue that the City was in fact "The Bride" in stead of being compared to "a" bride.

Quote
Hereby I witness myself:
And I, Aryan, saw the city the New Jerusalem, from God in which both saints and angels dwelt.

You might understand that I have absolutely no problem with John calling the NJ prepared as a bride...

You see Paul2; I paid my experience in heaven almost with my own life, and therefore I cannot deny it...
With respect to your faith, no earthly doctrine can change that; I am not a bride-church believer, I hope you can live with that Smiley

     I have no idea what you are saying above, it seems that your claiming to have seen the New Jerusalem with your own eyes. I'd like to understand just what your saying here.

     I don't believe "earthly" doctrine, but what Scripture teaches, I can live with the fact that your not a bride church believer, if you can...

     Ephesians 5:31 "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
   32: This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."


     When the Apostle Paul speaks of mysteries its time to go deep and really study because he is revealing things previously not known.

Romans 11:25 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in."

       The fulness of the Gentiles be come in, means the Church is completed, full, finished, perfected, and Raptured. Then and only then will Israel's blindness be lifted, the Church is in the way, and must be completed and Raptured before Israel's eyes will see clearly. The bride of Christ, His Church is a stumbling block for Israel just as Christ Himself is. Israel won't see clearly until the Church is Raptured.

                                     The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2 Cool
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Petro
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« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2003, 11:31:55 PM »

Twotombs,

Scratch Moses off your list, He is numbered with faithful Abraham, he died on Mt Nebo.

God says he died.  In fact God commanded him to go upon the Mt and die.....

Deut
Get thee up into this mountain Abarim, unto mount Nebo,.........And die in the mount whither thou goest up,....Because ye trespassed against me among the children of Israel at the waters of Meribah-Kadesh, in the wilderness of Zin; because ye sanctified me not in the midst of the children of Israel.   (Deut 32:49,50,51)


And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.  (Deut 33:1)
   

Blessings,
Petro
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twobombs
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« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2003, 12:14:03 PM »

Jud 1:9     Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

Pedro; have a nice one.
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Petro
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« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2003, 09:10:06 PM »

Jud 1:9     Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

Pedro; have a nice one.

twotombs,

Talk about minds being miles apart..

I say read the rest of this passage, and it may clear things up for you.

Peter, and the others thought Elias, Moses and Jesus were come to rule on the earth, Notice Jesus answer.

Did they build the tabernacles, nawww...

Because, it wans't the way they thought it was to be.

Just like yourself, ye do greatly err, not knowing the scriptures;

Jesus said;

Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
25  For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
26  And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27  He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.


Thou they live there is no evidence they have resurrcted  on  the earth, the closest you can get to this is,

Mat 17
10  And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12  But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13  Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Verse 13 is in refernce to;
 
Mal 4
5  Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

No evidence that Elijah arose from the grave, since he did not die, just like enoch. Neither has Abraham risen, he does live in the spirit, but his body sleeps.

Elijah was carried up into heaven bodily in a whirlwind.  (2 Kings 2:1-11)

Good day, and Blessings
Pedro
« Last Edit: December 08, 2003, 09:29:11 PM by Petro » Logged

twobombs
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« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2003, 04:13:21 AM »

Petro: my nick is Two Bombs. As in the things that fall on Babylonian soil on the days of wrath.
Second: apparently you are so convinced of your cause, not willing to even contemplate my input that adding more information would be a waiste of bandwith
Third: I sense a sort of hostility that is not very Christian in your posting, and I think I know the root cause.

What is your idea on "Rapture season 2006/2007 facts & evidence" ?
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Petro
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« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2003, 10:23:57 AM »

Petro: my nick is Two Bombs. As in the things that fall on Babylonian soil on the days of wrath.
Second: apparently you are so convinced of your cause, not willing to even contemplate my input that adding more information would be a waiste of bandwith
Third: I sense a sort of hostility that is not very Christian in your posting, and I think I know the root cause.

What is your idea on "Rapture season 2006/2007 facts & evidence" ?

twotombs,

Never mind about the analysis, as for your waisting your bandwith, you are perceptive and are correct.

Reconcile your scriptures, and quit posting nonsense..

Elijia and Enoch, were taken up into heaven bodily, Moses died here on the earth.

And as you can see from the scripture you posted his body was disputed over by the angel and Satan, which ought to have engaged your brain into thinking about the body of Moses, not that it matters to me but ;  Ask yourself,

Where is it on earth or in heaven??

you posted;

Exept for Moses, Eliah and Enoch all the OT saints were resurrected in :
Mat 27:52  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,  
Mat 27:53  And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Not the verses, but your comment herein is mere speculation...concerning Elijah, Enoch and Moses, in the context of these verses.

Let me guess, is this Mormon doctrine you are attempting to infuse into Christian biblical scriptural theology.

Quote
Hereby I witness myself:
And I, Aryan, saw the city the New Jerusalem, from God in which both saints and angels dwelt.

Aryan who?  said all this...................right out of the pearl of great price is it...??


Petro
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twobombs
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« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2003, 04:41:23 AM »

Petro: I am very disappointed in you; please understand that... do not fight me like this; it makes me very disappointed.

No; I am not mad at you, but you are flaming up this carefully crafted response thread for just one, small detail on the whole scope.

I am closing this thread.
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« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2004, 04:43:25 PM »

Re-opened
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« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2004, 11:58:09 PM »

In the 13th chapter of Ezek, God say's he is against those  false prophets of the 'house of israel' who hunt souls to make them 'fly'.'fly'-strongs #6524 in the hebrew language-parach-To break forth as a bud i.e. bloom;generaly to spread; specifically to fly(as extending the wings);figuratively; to flourish:
Why would God be against flying away? It is second worst deception compared to the appearance of the false christ, which most will worship!
1st Century christians had no physical protection against there tribulation, why are we so special to recieve some secret fly away so called rapture into the clouds?

If you want to be protected during the tribulation. The answer is the 'seal of God' Rev 9:4

God Bless
Jesus Peace,

Jason
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Dale
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« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2004, 01:47:55 AM »



  Paul2, in Post #16:
<<     Why isn't  the word "Church" used in the Book of Revelation from chapter 4 to 19? Because its in heaven during that time. >>

  I will have to disagree. Take a look at Revelation Chapter 12:
"A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head."  Revelation 12: 1 NIV

  The woman here is the Christian Church. As I understand the symbolism, the Sun = God the Father; the moon = Jesus Christ, the woman = the Church; the twleve stars = the Apostles and their teaching; the woman's child = the Second Coming of Christ.
  The dragon, Satan, makes war against the woman because the woman is the Church.
 
  It is incredible to me that anyone would think that the Church in the 21st Century would enter heaven in a "Rapture" through the door in heaven that John's spirit passed through in the First Century!



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Dale
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« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2004, 01:55:00 AM »



  TrueWordBeliever, Jason:
<< If you want to be protected during the tribulation. The answer is the 'seal of God' Rev 9:4 >>

  Good point and good post. Welcome!


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« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2004, 07:21:03 AM »



  Paul2, in Post #16:
<<     Why isn't  the word "Church" used in the Book of Revelation from chapter 4 to 19? Because its in heaven during that time. >>

  I will have to disagree. Take a look at Revelation Chapter 12:
"A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head."  Revelation 12: 1 NIV

  The woman here is the Christian Church. As I understand the symbolism, the Sun = God the Father; the moon = Jesus Christ, the woman = the Church; the twleve stars = the Apostles and their teaching; the woman's child = the Second Coming of Christ.
  The dragon, Satan, makes war against the woman because the woman is the Church.

Hmm.  I'm not sure I follow you here Dale.  The church is going to birth the second coming?   I would very much like to hear what other scripture you can offer to show this to be true.   Lets examine the verses in this chapter a little bit.

Rev 12:4  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

The woman, brings forth a manchild, which you believe is the second coming.  Now, this child according to John, was born
and the last half of verse 5 says that this child was caught up to God and to his throne.  So the second coming is going to be caught up to God and his throne going by your description.  This makes no sense to me, but lets continue...

Rev 12:6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

This verse now shows the church (as you describe) fleeing into the wilderness, after she gives birth to the second coming which is caught up into heaven?  Do you see the problem here?  I really don't understand how one can make sense of these things the way you describe them.

The way I read it, the manchild is Christ who will rule with an Iron Rod (see Psalms 2:7-9 for a clear explanation of the ONE who is begotten of God and will rule with an Iron Rod), and the woman is Israel who will be protected by God in the desert for the last half of the tribulation (Jeremiah 30 and 31 eludes to this).  For biblical description of these symbols sun, moon, stars etc... see Gen 37:9  I believe these describe Jacob-father, Sarah-mother, Joseph-son and his eleven brothers who are the forefathers (tribes) of the nation of Israel which God promised the messiah would come....the manchild who will rule with an Iron Rod.  Scripture interpriting scripture.

Quote
 It is incredible to me that anyone would think that the Church in the 21st Century would enter heaven in a "Rapture" through the door in heaven that John's spirit passed through in the First Century!

To understand Revelation correctly, you must first observe the conditions given to John by the Lord.  These give the outline of things John is to record throughout the book.

Rev 1:19  Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

and at the end of Revelation John explains...

Rev 22:8  And I John saw these things, and heard them.

So John writes down everything he see's and hears, past, present, and future.  He describes things he had already seen in chapter 1, things that are present chapter 2 through chapter 3, and future things chapter 4 and later (3 specific parts of the book).  There is clearly shift from present tense to future tense going by the words starting in chapter four...

Rev 4:1  After this (present things) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. (later on....future things).

John saw things that happened "hereafter", litterally in the  future.  Is it really so hard to imagine that God is able to show John events that will transpire at a much later date?  If we accept Gods instruction to his bondservant John, and read the text plainly as John was instructed to record it by the Lord, we will begin to make sense of this important revelation that God has provided us with.

Quote
TrueWordBeliever, Jason:
<< If you want to be protected during the tribulation. The answer is the 'seal of God' Rev 9:4 >>

The only people ever sealed with Gods protection in Revelation are those who are members of the tribes of Israel.  Note that John recorded (as intructed) the number he heard.

Rev 7:4  And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

He continues listed the number 12,000 for each individual tribe, 12 in all.

Reading this passage litterally, this is clearly speaking of Israel, an exact number from each tribe that will accept Christ as messiah during the tribulation.  Nothing here about the church being preserved from wrath.  That promise is in 1 Thessalonians 5:9

Grace and Peace!
« Last Edit: January 19, 2004, 07:26:49 AM by 2nd Timothy » Logged

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« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2004, 08:26:24 AM »



  Paul2, in Post #16:
<<     Why isn't  the word "Church" used in the Book of Revelation from chapter 4 to 19? Because its in heaven during that time. >>

  I will have to disagree. Take a look at Revelation Chapter 12:
"A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head."  Revelation 12: 1 NIV

  The woman here is the Christian Church. As I understand the symbolism, the Sun = God the Father; the moon = Jesus Christ, the woman = the Church; the twleve stars = the Apostles and their teaching; the woman's child = the Second Coming of Christ.
  The dragon, Satan, makes war against the woman because the woman is the Church.
 
  It is incredible to me that anyone would think that the Church in the 21st Century would enter heaven in a "Rapture" through the door in heaven that John's spirit passed through in the First Century!




It is incredible to me that anyone could believe the way you do Dale. You need to start reading Pauls letters.

The Crusader
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Tibby
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« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2004, 12:44:37 PM »



  Paul2, in Post #16:
<<     Why isn't  the word "Church" used in the Book of Revelation from chapter 4 to 19? Because its in heaven during that time. >>

  I will have to disagree. Take a look at Revelation Chapter 12:
"A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head."  Revelation 12: 1 NIV

  The woman here is the Christian Church. As I understand the symbolism, the Sun = God the Father; the moon = Jesus Christ, the woman = the Church; the twleve stars = the Apostles and their teaching; the woman's child = the Second Coming of Christ.
  The dragon, Satan, makes war against the woman because the woman is the Church.
 
  It is incredible to me that anyone would think that the Church in the 21st Century would enter heaven in a "Rapture" through the door in heaven that John's spirit passed through in the First Century!




It is incredible to me that anyone could believe the way you do Dale.

Really? Every Christian till about 150 years ago believed as Dale. Guess what, Crusader... Left Behind isn't Scripture Roll Eyes When you get right down to it, Left Behind isn't Scriptural!
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TrueWordBeliever
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« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2004, 07:35:52 PM »



Quote
TrueWordBeliever, Jason:
<< If you want to be protected during the tribulation. The answer is the 'seal of God' Rev 9:4 >>

The only people ever sealed with Gods protection in Revelation are those who are members of the tribes of Israel.  Note that John recorded (as intructed) the number he heard.

Rev 7:4  And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

He continues listed the number 12,000 for each individual tribe, 12 in all.

Reading this passage litterally, this is clearly speaking of Israel, an exact number from each tribe that will accept Christ as messiah during the tribulation.  Nothing here about the church being preserved from wrath.  That promise is in 1 Thessalonians 5:9

Grace and Peace!

2nd Timothy,

If you will Start at the begining of Ch5 of 1st Thess.

In v2 it says
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

The subject that is being taught here is the "day of the Lord"

What is the day of the Lord? Well according to Zechariah Ch 14.
Zech 14:1
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh.....
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle....
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations,.......
4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east,........

Notice it says His feet will stand upon the mount of Olives, Here on EARTH, NOT up in the air in the clouds.

The seal of God is knowing the Truth, knowing the false christ appears 1st, before Our CHRIST!
just like the mark of the Beast is believing all the lies and deception that is caused by the fake christ.


Do you know who Israel is?The Real Jews (The Real descendants of Judah) who inhabit Jerusalem and the rest of the earth make up a very small part of the True Israel! Beware of the false jews, Jesus warned us about them in Rev 2:9 and Rev 3:9

God Bless
Jesus Peace,

Jason

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