Submission

[Allinall]

If there is only one born again Christian in a marriage, Paul is saying that the work of the Holy Spirit in him might bring his spouse toward salvation. But if the unbelieving spouse doesn't want the marriage than the believer is not sinning because he is not seeking to dissolve the union. So, according to scripture,  Left Coast has not sinned by allowing his wife to leave. He is free to marry again.

I disagree, but that is neither here nor there.  

[Royo]

I keep hearing that it is O.K., cause we will be forgiven.

It reminds me of the old catholic joke. (please anyone who is catholic, I mean no offense).
It was said, "sin all week, and on Saturday get forgiven."

Just because God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, does not mean we have a right, or "liberty", to disobey His Word. On divorce, or anything else.

God bless.  Roy.

[Left Coast]

Allinall
I thought your insight was very good. We are not to leave for any reason even abuse. But those are very tough shoes to walk in. I would consider such a woman a saint. If I had to counsel on the subject I would say stay, our time on this earth is very short but our life with the Lord never ends. I hope I never have to tell someone that and if it was one of my daughters I doubt if I would.
With out a doubt, if we are saved ALL of our sins are forgiven.
Heidi
I would add to what you accurately pointed out,

the spirit helps them learn how to love each other.

When we become saved It is because God has given us a new heart.

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

This is the action that saves us, also known as being born again. We are completely different. The result of this action done by God is in the next verse.

Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

We keep Gods laws and commandments, not perfectly, we still have a body of flesh, that has not been changed yet. We get a new body when the Lord returns.
Because salvation is dependent on Gods work we can test our salvation to see if the work was done.

1 John 2:3  And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:5  But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1 John 2:6  He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

These verses do not stand alone we have to look at them in the light of Romans 7:

Romans 7:22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 7:23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Romans 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Romans 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

As Paul says when we are saved we delight in Gods law. A believer finds no happiness in sin. Short term, yes. Long term, no. We cannot stay in sin. I tried.
A few years after my divorce some friends of mine divorced. The husband made it clear he was out. In caring for this friend who was hurt we became attached, I had forgotten how much I missed companionship. We dated for about a year, I cared very much for her but always I knew it was sin. It ate at me and ate at me until we called it off. I could not continue in the sin. It has been about three years now, I sometimes wish I had that companionship. But I know for a certainty that I will never be with another woman again. The burden is too great.

[Allinall]

Thank you L.C.  I know that is a hard row to walk.  Perhaps that's why the disciples told Jesus that it would be better for men not to marry.  But I like what Jesus told them in response.  

[Saved_4ever]

If there is only one born again Christian in a marriage, Paul is saying that the work of the Holy Spirit in him might bring his spouse toward salvation. But if the unbelieving spouse doesn't want the marriage than the believer is not sinning because he is not seeking to dissolve the union. So, according to scripture,  Left Coast has not sinned by allowing his wife to leave. He is free to marry again.

I disagree, but that is neither here nor there.  

I'm not so sure about her wording but Paul makes it quite clear that if you have an unsaved partner who wishes to "divorce" you to let them go.  I don't see how you can say other wise.  Is there some scripture for this you have that I don't know about?  If so I am all ears however I have read it more than once that Paul has stated such.  I mean really how can you force someone to stay with you?

[Allinall]

I'm not so sure about her wording but Paul makes it quite clear that if you have an unsaved partner who wishes to "divorce" you to let them go.  I don't see how you can say other wise.  Is there some scripture for this you have that I don't know about?  If so I am all ears however I have read it more than once that Paul has stated such.  I mean really how can you force someone to stay with you?

I'm speaking more from Heidi's assertion that that individual is then free to remarry, not that they shouldn't let them go.  I'm of a personal opinion that Paul was married prior to his conversion, and that he actually had his wife leave as a result.  We can't keep someone who's bent on leaving, but we can respond obediently to what God has said in His word from that point on.  

[Saved_4ever]

To you L.C. I have a question about your view on the abuse thing, and I mean physical.  It really isn't mentioned in scripture and to some extent I believe it's because ti was some what unthinkableor rather rare that a man would beat his wife.  I don't know, but I could never tell someone to stay and be beaten.  I don't find that biblical at all.  I wouldn't tell them to get a divorce but perhaps being helped by the Church and helping the family in couciling for a time.  

I do think that divorce is rampant even in the churches and worst of all I hear people telling them that God "told" them to do it, or that they found someone better that God lead them to.  I think that's bogus beyond belief really.

I'm not judging people but I don't see this stuff as good.  I am in a very strange predicament myself.  I was unsaved when my girlfriend got pregnant and we were never married.  She claimed to be saved which now boggles my mind but whatever on that regardless.  After our seperation, I became much closer to God.  I am in much tumult over it al really.  She is already "with" another person and has been for several months and we have not even been seperated for a year.

Technically I have never been married so I would not be wrong to marry another, but there is still a part of me that somehow wishes that God would do a work in her heart that my son would have his proper family.  I hate myself daily for making such a mistake that effects someone that had no say in the matter.  My flesh still also rejects the idea of being with her since she has decided to move on.  Anywho, I am curious how some people view this situation.  I am not looking for anyone or anything so I'm not looking for justification to move on.  It's just something that bothers me to no end.  I often have to force myself not to think about it or dwell on it.

I can be hard on others who are about to make similar mistakes because of my own experiences not because I am self righteous as some people are quick to shout.  I suppose it's not much different than parents telling their children things that they refuse to listen do and then use it as ammo against them later.  

Oh man how thou hast fallen.  Silly Adam and Eve had to go and be stupid passing on that most unfortunate trait of sin.    

I'd really love to stick my size 11 in satans rear end.  

Wouldn't it be great if in the end we all got to kcik the snot out of the devil.  Sort of like when dad holds down big brother so little brother can get even?  

[Allinall]

Just out of curiosity Jason, how long have you been saved?

[Saved_4ever]

Just out of curiosity Jason, how long have you been saved?

Just over two years.  Why do you ask?  Do you not feel I am far enough along in my walk with Christ?    I am waiting for that sort of responce.  I don't mind you are all entitled to your own feelings/beliefs.

[Allinall]

Nope!  Sorry to cause concern my friend    I just noted the timing of your child, your relationship with his mom, and your testimony and thought that you'd be a relative "young buck" spiritually.  No.  To the contrary, I think you show great discernment for one so young.  Keep growing!  

[Saved_4ever]

Nope!  Sorry to cause concern my friend    I just noted the timing of your child, your relationship with his mom, and your testimony and thought that you'd be a relative "young buck" spiritually.  No.  To the contrary, I think you show great discernment for one so young.  Keep growing!  

No you are currect in that assumption.  It is interesting to see how the LORD works.  At that time in my life I had lost 95 pounds (to which I have since put back on   but I am about to change that again.) was getting ready to graduate tech school.  I thought I was on top of the world about to get out of my rut.  It seemed like the icing on the cake to add the girlfriend.  Little did I know that the LORd would soon put me in my place and slowly bring me to where he wanted me.  A month before graduation I found out she was pregnant and my life turned upside down.

I had wanted to get married and so did she (so she said).  We were already living together.  One day I got into an argument with her over evolution.  Me telling her she was stupid to sum it up.    She told me of course that's not what the bible taught yadda yadda the normal Christian/unsaved chat.  I being a reasonable person knew I had to know where she was coming from to prove her wrong.  I began reading the bible and slowly but surely I had a major conviction of the heart.

It was pretty weird to me as this was not the first time I had read the bible well at least some of it.  Never had I felt any conviction at all.  There happened to be a church right behind my appartment to which I decided to go to.  I went morning and evening on Sunday for about two months or so before I went down to the fron to ask Jesus to forgive and help me.  Oddly enough it was fathers day so I hold a lot of value in that day now.  I didn't go through the normal prayer thing with a "worker", which is why I laugh at people when they say "You think just because you went down front and said a prayer with someone you are saved."  I actually told the person who came over to me that I wanted them to do was pray for me and my situtation.  My salvation was just between Jesus and I with no help.  I then slowly but surely started to change my beliefs as I continued to read the WORD.  Again why I laugh at people when they tell me I grew up with this belief or my church taught me.  I actually stayed at my church because I found their teaching to match my reading not the other way around.  I now have a wonderful church family.  I am also quite close to the Pastor and his wife as well as our new pastors assistant.  I am quite involved in my church actually.

Anyhow that's how I became saved.  The rest of my humbling from the LORD happened from there, the crushing blow happening almost one year ago.  Everytime I feel "proud" the LORD brings about something to make me humble to him again.  As much as I don't like it, it always reassures me that the LORD loves me.  For if he didn't I wouldn't receive rebuking or chastisment.

God bless,
Jason

[Left Coast]

I think the bible does cover abuse. It does it in sort of a separated statement.

1 Peter 2:18  Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
1 Peter 2:19  For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.

The bible then ties this to wives

1 Peter 3:1  Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

You were never married so you are free to marry. I’m going to put a ‘but’ on this though.
Thirty years ago I lived with a woman for several months, I am not real confident that we were not married in Gods eyes. We shared the bed, the home, the bills, we lived as husband and wife we just didn’t call it that.
On the other hand my wife got pregnant in high school. Her mother pressured her to marry. He moved in with her parents. She did not leave her mother and father. They did not share the responsibilities of the home. As soon as the baby was born she divorced him. I feel that I was more married than she was.
One thing I would suggest. Look at the family before you commit to marriage. My wife, I call her that because according to God she is, has a family of divorced people.
Her mother has 6 kids 5 different fathers. She has been with the current one for over 30 years.
All of her sisters except one have been divorced. Some two or three times. Her only brother has never married. Three of the five girls have kids from more than two fathers.
Although I claim all 4 kids mine are numbers 2 and 4. We were divorced twice #3 came during the first divorce.
I can tell you to look, but the fact is love is blind.
And I was a psych. major in college. I am also a rescuer.

[Allinall]

Amen brother!  That was a very blessed testimony that does my heart good.  God brings us from every walk in life doesn't He?  I was raised in a christian home and was in church everyday the doors were open most of the time!  I made a profession at the age of 8.  It wasn't until I was 22 that I came to the realization I was lost.

My assistant pastor was preaching as the pastor was out of town for two weeks.  Now, this man preached often, and every time he did, he addressed salvation.  I'd heard him hundreds of times before, but this time it was for me.  But I "whiteknuckled" it and walked out.  I was, afterall a professed believer.  The next week's message was the same with the same effect only more potent.  I struggled greatly, but left unsaved that Sunday to.  I even bargained with God!  I said, "God, if I'm not saved let Tony and Jenny be at lunch today."  Now they're my brother and sister in laws, and weren't even supposed to be in town that day.  So I thought I'd padded it rather well.  *L* Guess who was at lunch?

But I still stuck to my guns.  The next week, in Sunday School, the teacher, whom I'd known for years, and who never spoke on salvation in Sunday School - railed on salvation for the entire class period!  I'm feelin' a little out of place by that time, so when pastor said he was preaching on "The 3 Things You Need To Be A Good Christian" I was feeling better.  Point number one?  You have to be saved.  Don't remember the other ones...I went out that morning lost still.

The following Thursday, while reading my bible of all things for devotions, I realized that I had come to the end of my rope.  I was lost and this was my opportunity to obey.  So I did!  Thursday, June 23, 1992.

[Saved_4ever]

A rescuer eh?  I was that, but you should know full well there is no such thing really.  Funny thing is My parents got divorced and hers hadn't (although most would say they should).  Neither of my parents have remarried but my father lives with his current G/F and has for quite some time now.  I won't even go into what I think is really going on though.

I think part of the reason I hate myself so much is because I know what it felt like when my father left.  Everyone keeps telling me not to because my son doesn't really know what it's like to have his parents together so it's not the same.  It doesn't really help me though even if it is true.  I can't help but think that someday when he gets older he will hold it against me.  I am just going to keep doing what I find right for now though and I make sure to be there for him as much as I can.  I really wish I could come home to him, but for now that's not going to happen.  I can only pray that the LORD sees it right that I have him but I must always remind myself that the LORD is well aware of the situation and will do what is best.  That is hard sometimes as I don't feel his mother is what she should be for him.

I don't even think she realizes that I have him 50% of the time and that I actually see him more than her because when she see's him she has to have him babysat most of the time.  She has a strange shift job to which she works 6AM-6PM.  When I have him I have off so I spend all of my time "with" him.  I just wish she would put the LORD first.  It's upsetting to see someone claim salvation from the time the where "yeah high" yet not even begin to obey the LORD (seeing as we have an "illigitimate" child  ).  I found a way to work it so I have him every other Sunday so he at least goes to Church with me.

I'll just keep praying for her.  I don't think she doesn't love my son I just think she has a lot of growing up to do and a lot of rebellion to get rid of.

[Left Coast]

James Dobson said something once. It was directed towards divorced couples, but I also think it relates to you.
He said, Divorce will not kill a child but it will scar the child. Now if it is done right you won't even see the scar, but sometimes people act in a way that the scar disfigures.
I didn't use quotation marks because my memory isn't that good.
Your son will be OK if you work together. My wife and I actually have a good relationship we don't have custody issues. I get them when I can, and she gets them when I can't.
The boys are grown and on their own, but the girls are 16 & 14 now we let them decide where they want to be.
Sometimes I have to whine a little because their friends are at her house.
But I see them alot. That system works for us and I don't think that the scars are too bad.
That system may not work for you. But I think you will find the system that will work. You are involved with your sons life. That is the best thing you can do.