Submission

[Heidi]

Left Coast, i was divorced twice before i met my current husband. So I know that it is the exception. But it just shows me that without the Holy Spirit in at least one partner, marriage is an uphill battle. That is why it's good to remember that we are forgiven if we divorce.  

[Reba]

Help HELP!

Do the scriptures say Sarah is our example? I cant find it
or is this another one of those phrases that is not really scriptural?

1 PETER 3:6  
Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Thanks Sunodino,

I did not change the spelling of Sarah, got flustered and gave up  thanks again Sunodino

1 Cor 7:39
39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.
KJV
Rom 7:3
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
KJV

God saw fit to include these scriptures not once but twice. Many times the WORD is the only thing that has held my marrage of 40 years together. ( I turned every scripture  on divorce and REMARRIAGE inside out looking for escape for me i could not find it)  We as christians scream GOD did not create Adam and Steve  but we live as if GOD  created Adam and Eve and Eve and Eve. When we divorce are we saying GOD can not hear my prayers? HE is not capable of healing?

  Please do not take this very personal topic personally
I know i am not in  any other shoes then my own.   Sarah trusted in the LORD not in Abe.  I have stayed married but have not always lived as though i trust in the LORD.

We do not justify murder, idols, lieing, etc because we are not under the law yet as a church we do remarriage.

[Mr. 5020]

[We do not justify murder, idols, lieing, etc because we are not under the law yet as a church we do remarriage.

AMEN!!!  Something I've never understood.

[IrishAngel]

1 Corinthians 7:16  For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
 

AMEN!
According to scripture, christians ( laying aside the past, speaking only in present tense) should not be divorcing.

God can fix anything, if your willing to put it in His hands.

(from someone who is living the proof.   )

[Royo]

We do not justify murder, idols, lieing, etc because we are not under the law yet as a church we do remarriage.
QUOTE
____________________________________________________
 
I am in agreement with what the scripture says, as you have quoted them Reba. Though it is a touchy subject with many.

Will those Christians who have divorced, when scripture says not to, be forgiven? Of course they will be. But we must be careful not to go against the Word of God just because we know we will be forgiven.
Many divorce though because some pastor or counselor tells them the Word says it is O.K. if........
In todays churches there seems to be a lot of the blind leading the blind. Or the misinformed leading the illinformed.
God bless you all. Roy.

[Heidi]

I agree that Christians shouldn't be divorcing. But i do think that if we are being mistreated, we can stand up for ourselves. We are, of course, responsible for how we treat our spouses, but if we find that our situation is intolerable, we can separate and insist on counseling. If the other one doesn't want to save the marriage, then he/she can divorce us and then we are not bound.

[Left Coast]

I believe that any, if there was any, permission to divorce was repealed when Christ came.
The reason God allowed divorce was because He was married to Israel. Israel was commiting spiritual adultry. The penalty for adultry was to be stoned to death. If Israel was destroyed Christ could not come because the promise that He would come from Israel.
When divorced if the wife remarried she could never return to her original husband. Even if her second husband died. This law was not repealed. As such the nation of Israel cannot return to it's first marriage.

Deuteronomy 24:1 ¶ When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
Deuteronomy 24:2  And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man’s wife.
Deuteronomy 24:3  And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;
Deuteronomy 24:4  Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

The wonderful thing is God will obey His commandments perfectly. When saved we are the 'Bride of Christ'. God will never divorce us.
Seven years ago when my wife left I searched all over for some way to find permission to remarry. I spent alot of time looking in to marriage.
It seems to me there was a verse that says God hates divorce but I can't find it. Anybody know where it might be?
There is an excellent bible study available. You might not like alot of the things this Christian network says, but this study on marriage is the best I've seen. The following link will get you to the web site. On the left side click 'literature' near the bottom of the list you'll find:
What God Hath Joined Together
Here's the link http://www.familyradio.com/graphical/graphical_frame.html

[Heidi]

Christs explicity says that divorcing because of infidelity is acceptable. So there is a reason to divorce. If your wife divorced you, Paul says you are not bound.

And remember, LC, that even if you are the one divorcing your spouse, that you are forgiven, It is wiped away. You are starting with a clean slate. After my divorces, I was beautifully blessed witha believing husband. I do not believe that God would have blseed me so if I were not in His favor. The only reason I'm in His favor is because He has forgiven me for my sins. So don't be so hard on yourself. There just might be a wonderful, believing person out there whom God can bless you with.

[Left Coast]

Heidi
I never divorced my wife, either time, we were married twice.
Please read the study I suggested. There was a specific reason divorce was allowed for adultry. You'll notice never at any time was a wife allowed to divorce her husband.
You'll also notice it was because of the hardness of their hearts that God allowed it.
Jesus recinded divorce and the study I mentioned explains it more clearly than I have the time to do.
The bible says if the unbeliever wishes to leave you are to let them leave, I did not contest the divorce.

[Heidi]

LC, I scanned the literature section but didn't find the section on infidelity. So do you believe that God doesn't give us a second chance?

[Heidi]

LC, let me elaborate on where I'm coming from. In 1Co., 6:12, under "The Believer's Freedom", Paul says, "Everything is permissible for me, but not everything is beneficial." This to me, sums up the New Law that came from Christ's blood. We believers can do anything we want to. We can be sexually immoral, cheat, lie, etc. and we are forgiven. But is it beneficial? In other words, we are no longer bound by the law. We are instead convicted by the law. The law is now coming from our heart. It comes from the gratitude that we are forgiven and the Holy Spirit convicting us from sin. It's complete and total freedom which makes us WANT to obey Him rather than obeying Him because we should. This is what softens our hearts and gives us the ability to love. Once we have this ability to love, it can then be returned to us. Our hearts are now in the law.

This is what gives us the ability to stay married. But if our hearts are hard and we stayed married simply to obey the law, how are we any different than the Pharisees?

[Reba]

A few scriptures on subject. . .


Matt 18:21-22
21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
KJV


Matt 18:21-22
21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
KJV

1 Sam 15:22
22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
KJV


Rom 6:15
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
KJV



1 Peter 3:1. . .6
3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;. . . .


5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:

6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
KJV

in words of our Lord

John 14:15
5 If ye love me, keep my commandments
KJV
Matt 19:8-9
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
KJV

[Heidi]

Thanks, Reba. I basically think that Paul is saying that it is better that we stay married and that if we divorce, we're forgiven. However, there will still be conesequences proportional to the sin we committed. As we grow in the spirit, I believe we feel the pain of sin more and thus, don't want to continue it. So basically we are convicted but not condemned. Thanks again.

[Allinall]

Posted by: Heidi  Posted on: Today at 12:20:36pm  
Christs explicity says that divorcing because of infidelity is acceptable. So there is a reason to divorce. If your wife divorced you, Paul says you are not bound.
 

A little scholarly clarification here...

Now when Jesus had finished these sayings, he went away from Galilee and entered the region of Judea beyond the Jordan. And large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.
And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?" He answered, "Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female,  and said, 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh'?  So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate." They said to him, "Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?" He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.  And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery."

Matthew 19:1-9

Many will use this to justify divorce and remarriage based upon the context of adultery.  I do not believe, however, that they do so scripturally.  Here is why I believe so...

This exception is found only in the book of Matthew, and not in the other gospel accounts.  It is commonly accepted that each gospel was written to a select group of people: Matthew to the Jews, Mark to the Romans, Luke to the Greeks, and John to the believer (I understand that people even vary in this understanding, but all agree that Matthew was written to the Jews).  Why is this important? Because this would only show up in the account written to the Jews, as this was a common practice among them.  When a man and woman married, by Law, they each went back home to their respective families homes for the period of one year - without consumating.  In that year, the husband would watch his bride, and if he found "uncleaness" in her, or found her to be unfaithful, then Moses, for the hard hearted Israelites, permitted it.  Christ even says this, that it was not, is not, and never will be "ok" with God.  This was written only to the Jews as only a Jew would understand the premise of that Lawful practice.  Jesus, effectively shoots that premise down right there.  Holding to such an opinion is unscriptural.

However, I tend to sit back and to look at God's workings in the lives of the believer.  He designed a man and a woman to marry and stay married - yet David, the man after God's own heart, sought to fulfill eastern cultural principles and had more than one wife as well as concubines.  Solomon did even more so.  Yet God continued to work graciously in David's life did He not?  I also find it interesting that David committed adultery with one woman, then had her husband murdered for all practical intents and purposes, then marries her!  That's worse than any tabloid story you'll find!  Yet, it was from that union that God brought Solomon onto the scene - and from whom the Savior would come!  God, unmitigatedly blessed that marriage.

I have parents who both divorced, and married each other prior to my birth.  God is working in their lives and they grow in Him each day.  My wife's parents divorced, and her mother and step father are growing in the grace of God each and every day.  Now, either they aren't growing, or they are!  When I see "fruit" I know they are growing.  So how do I reconcile these two factors?  God is good!  He is merciful and gracious to man in this area in ways we cannot begin to fathom.  If you've been divorced and are remarried, God still can work in you and in your marriage.  If you're married then it is important to understand God's opinion of that marriage.  Does this mean abused woman just have to tough it out?  I personally don't believe so, although scripturally I can't find a "leave him" verse.  Practically speaking, toughing it out may not be the route to take.  Problem is, that in most cases, that isn't the case.  Adultery can be.  I've seen several marriages come out of such circumstances stronger if those involved are willing to forgive and let God perfect them.

As for Paul's assertion...where did you find that passage Heidi?  I'd like to take a better look at it.

[Heidi]

Allinall, your post re-enforces my understanding of scripture. even if Jesus doesn't think that it's O.K. to divorce because of marital infidelity (or sexual immorality in another bible), we are still forgiven if we do it. However, it's almost impossible for 2 born again Christians to divorce because the spirit helps them learn how to love each other. But without the Spirit, we are left with trying to "muster up" love (which isn't genuine), and people feel trapped into trying to obey the law. If there is only one born again Christian in a marriage, Paul is saying that the work of the Holy Spirit in him might bring his spouse toward salvation. But if the unbelieving spouse doesn't want the marriage than the believer is not sinning because he is not seeking to dissolve the union. So, according to scripture,  Left Coast has not sinned by allowing his wife to leave. He is free to marry again.