Submission

[Heidi]

We all know that the bible said for we women to submit to our husbands. But it also said that a husband should love his wife like Christ loved the church. My question is this: If a husband is not submitting to God and treats his wife like a slave, should his wife submit to him even though his loyalties are coming from himself rather than God?

[Heidi]

Oops, I see that I probably posted this in the wrong category. But then again, it is a current event.

[Royo]

That is probably a touchy question, going by the response I have received from women when this is discussed.
I guess my short answer is this.
Our obedience to God's commands is not based upon how others act, but upon what He has commanded us to do. I don't love my enemy only if he is nice to me, but because God has commanded it.
I would like to add something though.
I have said in my testimony that my cousin gave me the money to buy a Bible, and I did. But before I ever started reading it, my friend's wife's Mother told this to me.
She said that there was a time she hated to submit to her husband because of the way she had been brought up. (sex is dirty; men just use you for sex, etc.). But she then told me that God revealed to her the scripture about submitting to her husband, and that she then saw it as submitting to God instead, and found that she was able to really enjoy it for the first time in her life.
I know this is not really an answer to your question, but your question reminded of that. At the time I thought it strange that this woman shared this with me, but I later saw how God used it to get me to start reading that Bible.
I just love to watch God work.   Roy.

[Heidi]

So basically what you're saying is that it's like what what the bible says about slaves and masters. I agree, to a point. If the woman's life is in danger, then what? I was in an abusive relationship once and I left. I said that I will come back if we get counseling but i wouldn't divorce him. He siad he wouldn't get counseling and asked for a divorce. I gave it to him. The bible says that i am not legally bound when an unbeliever leaves. I am so glad I did because i now have the most wonderful husband who has the Holy Spirit in him. I can't imagine being more blessed.

[Reba]

Help HELP!

Do the scriptures say Sarah is our example? I cant find it
or is this another one of those phrases that is not really scriptural?

[Symphony]

My question is this: If a husband is not submitting to God and treats his wife like a slave, should his wife submit to him even though his loyalties are coming from himself rather than God?

I'm not sure that any "regulations", esp. in the NT,  are necessarily ironclad.  But, if you decide to break one of them, then you must be able to answer for it.

[Royo]

Was there a misunderstanding?
I was not speaking to any particular person's situation, but to the scripture itself.
I believe that if a woman is being mistreated she is free to leave that situation. And am surprised by many who stay when they are being beaten, etc.
I did not know that when you said "treats his wife like a slave" that you were refering to mistreatment. Many men seem to take their wife for granted, and act like they are his slave, in that they expect her to cook, clean, wash, etc.
You did not mention your previous relationship in the original post, so I only answered as to what you did ask.
As to when we are free to marry again if we divorce, I won't even touch that one. I have my thoughts, but I have heard so many different thoughts on this that I will leave that to someone who may feel they know that answer better.
Sorry if you misunderstood, Heidi, for I was not speaking to you, but to the scriptural question only.

[Saved_4ever]

I have had this discussion with someone before.  For the most part I would have to agree with you Royo.  Acording to scripture we need to do "our parts" regardless of our partner.  I am not touching on physical abuse but cases where one person feels the other is not "living up to their end".  This can go both ways.  I myself was in a situtation where I was doing most of the work and paying the bills and my partner was barely doing anything at all.  It was pretty frustrating to say the least.  

I didn't feel the same way then but now looking to scripture each person needs to hold up their end regardless.  If something seems really out of wack one should take it to the church to have it delt with.  This is something we don't see much of but everything between Christians should be taken care of before the church.  We shouldn't need the courts between Christians.

As far as abuse is concerned then one needs to protect themselves.  I often find it hard to believe that a saved person could physically abuse his/her family just ased on scripture.  I would say to seek help from your church and see what happens.  You may not need to go all out if you know what I mean.

[sunodino]

Help HELP!

Do the scriptures say Sarah is our example? I cant find it
or is this another one of those phrases that is not really scriptural?

1 PETER 3:6  
Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

[Allinall]

Heidi,

Is our obedience to God's commands dependent upon the actions of others?

[Left Coast]

My question is this: If a husband is not submitting to God and treats his wife like a slave, should his wife submit to him even though his loyalties are coming from himself rather than God?

As long as her husband does not ask her to violate Gods commandments I would say yes.
If he wanted her to get an abortion she would need to refuse. But if he is just generally a jerk then unfortunatly she does need to obey.
This goes the other direction too. If a christian man is married to an unsaved woman and she goes out and has affairs, gets drunk, talks with a filthy mouth, etc. he still must love her.
Does this verse help?

1 Corinthians 7:16  For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
 

[Heidi]

I think the best thing to remember is that we are forgiven if we do leave. Feeling that forgiveness makes us want to be able to discern if we have been at fault. So in a sense, you are all right. The more forgiveness and trust i have in the Lord, the easier it will be for me to discern if my spiritual, mental, and physical life will be in danger if i stay. So I wouldn't be leaving just because I'm angry or don't love him. I would be leaving because my physical, mental, and spiritual life were eroding. Jesus said that Moses permitted divorce because our hearts were hard. If two people with hardened hearts are living together, it will only produce more hardened hearts.  

I think it's important to remember that we, as Christians, are no longer under the law. Christ fulfilled the law for us. The law now comes from our hearts. We are convicted because of the law and the law shows us in which direction to go. What Jesus does is change our HEARTS so that we follow our hearts now instead of the law. The holy Spirit gives us mercy, love, patience, joy, etc. in our hearts and we then respond from that. As our hearts become more forgiving and merciful, genuine love grows. I believe that is what jesus wants in a marriage. But if that is not there and we're only staying to obey the law, how is that different from the Pharisees?

[Corpus]

I've sometimes maintained that the husband actually has the more challenging part of the commission only because he is required to give his life for his wife. Notice that's not 'expected' of the wife.

[Heidi]

I want to share a personal story that might shed some light on this topic. When i met my husband, I was ATTRACTED to him, physically, emotionally, intellectually and spiritually because i could see the Holy Spirit in him. I instantly knew he was born again. He said he felt the same way about me. I didn't "decide" to marry a Christian because the bible said so. I was ATTRACTED to a Christain. And ever since then, we have had a glorious marriage. Since we are both coming from Christ in our hearts, we both want to do the right thing. We both look at our own sins, confess them and seek to have Christ minimize them in our lives. It isn't a decision. My husband loves me like Christ loves the church, not because he SHOULD, but because he DOES. He wants to make me happy. It isn't an effort. And because of that, i want him to do what he wants. So neither of us feels needy, which makes us want even more to please the other. This is what i think Christ can do for us. He honestly changes our hearts so that our love can be genuine.

[Left Coast]

It certainly can be a blessing when two people are born again and married. Unfortunatly that is the exception.
I believed in reincarnation when I got married. I was 29 and not sure I ever would have a family. My wife had a 1yr. old boy and was divorced at 18. She professed to be a christian. I wanted a family very badly and  I saw good mothering instincts from her.
I played a lot until I was 29 but I never felt there were any right ones.
After my first child was born, I'll call him my second child, I began to read the bible searching it for truth.
Eventually I became Christian in thought, but I wasn't saved yet.
My wife began to develop a violent temper toward me.
She divorced, dated a guy for a while got pregnant and had a baby. We began to see each other again, and the baby girl became my third child when she was only about 2 mths old. We had one more girl, to end up with 4. I began to change from believing salvation was by my freewill choice to understanding it was all Gods work.
She began to be more and more violent. Even attacking the house with her car, she couldn't get past the shrubs.
Eventually she divorced again and now lives with her boyfriend of 7 years.
She probably had 3 kids too many. When she walked out she had gotten very angry at son #1. I was in the livingroom reading the bible.
Whether she is or will be saved I don't know but the behavior was more like an unsaved person. We were unevenly yoked, and that is often the case.
Most of the time I didn't have a clue why she was mad at me. Often I was probably just a release valve for the anger she had for the child.
But mostly I think that once I came to know the Lord it was an irritation to her.