Baptism

[Ruth]

I addressed the issue of my name-change a few pages back.  

I am not playing games.  If you take this conversation as playing games...well, I do not know what to say to that, and I guess I have nothing to say other than you've mistaken me.  I have quotes Scripture in almost every post I've added, and have received clear answers from your party on less than half of the questions I've asked and rebuttles to less than half the arguments I've made.  If you are correct and are teaching the Gospel truth, as you claim to be, how come you cannot answer me?  I have quoted Scripture.  You are accusing me of misreading it, but not telling me how.  

Here is what you are saying to me:

- We can only be saved if we invite Christ in, accept Him, or choose Him.  
- Christ gives us the power to choose Him (If Christ gives all men the power to choose Him, then how are people NOT choosing Him?  Or does Christ's power not work in some cases?)
- Children cannot make a decision for Jesus and therefore cannot have faith and therefore get into heaven just because of their age.  There's also an age of accountability where they can accept Jesus, which is not Scriptural.

Here is what I'm saying

- Salvation comes from God alone.  There is nothing we can do to get it for ourselves.  We cannot, by our own reason or strength, invite Him in or make some sort of "decision" for Him. (see second point's Scriptural citations)
- God grants the repentence that leads to life-giving faith, which is also from God (Acts 11:17-18, Phillipians 1:28-29, John 1:12-13, John 15:16, Ephesians 1:3-5, Romans 9:14-16)
- Jesus tells us to have faith like children.  He says "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it." (Luke 18:17).  Children cannot choose or make a decision for themselves regarding salvation, and this is the type of faith we're supposed to have.  

[nChrist]

I addressed the issue of my name-change a few pages back. 

I am not playing games.  If you take this conversation as playing games...well, I do not know what to say to that, and I guess I have nothing to say other than you've mistaken me.  I have quotes Scripture in almost every post I've added, and have received clear answers from your party on less than half of the questions I've asked and rebuttles to less than half the arguments I've made.  If you are correct and are teaching the Gospel truth, as you claim to be, how come you cannot answer me?  I have quoted Scripture.  You are accusing me of misreading it, but not telling me how. 

Here is what you are saying to me:

- We can only be saved if we invite Christ in, accept Him, or choose Him. 
- Christ gives us the power to choose Him (If Christ gives all men the power to choose Him, then how are people NOT choosing Him?  Or does Christ's power not work in some cases?)
- Children cannot make a decision for Jesus and therefore cannot have faith and therefore get into heaven just because of their age.  There's also an age of accountability where they can accept Jesus, which is not Scriptural.

Here is what I'm saying

- Salvation comes from God alone.  There is nothing we can do to get it for ourselves.  We cannot, by our own reason or strength, invite Him in or make some sort of "decision" for Him. (see second point's Scriptural citations)
- God grants the repentence that leads to life-giving faith, which is also from God (Acts 11:17-18, Phillipians 1:28-29, John 1:12-13, John 15:16, Ephesians 1:3-5, Romans 9:14-16)
- Jesus tells us to have faith like children.  He says "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it." (Luke 18:17).  Children cannot choose or make a decision for themselves regarding salvation, and this is the type of faith we're supposed to have. 

Ruth,

I can see that you didn't take the hint. You twisted what others have told you here to the point that it's upside-down, inside-out. Maybe you can start by going back and seeing what people really said to you here. The posts are still there, so I won't bother quoting what was actually said. This simply adds to the evidence that you are playing a game.

If you are actually trying to talk about some kind of Salvation doctrine, what do you call it? I've not heard of one where JESUS only died for some and would reject some who wanted to accept HIM as Lord and Saviour. If you're not playing a game, again, I would ask "What do you call this?"

[Soldier4Christ]

Amen brother. She is either playing a game or she is blind and cannot see what is written. She has indeed twisted what was said to her and intent on omitting the "reject" part of statements made to her.

[Ruth]

Nowhere have I ever said Jesus would reject anyone.  Now you are twisting my words.  But this is old news.  Here's what I've read in this thread:

"Baptism follows salvation, salvation is a choice made by each person, God does not force anyone int accepting the free gift of salvation, it is a matter of personal chioce a choice that has to be made when a person is old enough to assume the fact that we are all born sinners, and be old enough to confess his sins to God, repent of them and ask God for forgiveness. Then accepting the Lord Jesus as their personal Savior, all of this is done by faith. An infant is not aware of having been born in a sinful state, nor does an infant know how to confess his sin or repent and accept Jesus as his/her Savior. Each person has to be accountable for him/herself. This is something that no one else can do for us." - airIam2worship
--- Jesus became accountable for us on the cross.  Can somebody explain how choosing is not a work? ---

"When we accept Salvation through Jesus Christ we are not doing "works" we are simply acknowledging the good works that Jesus Christ did for us on the cross and through His resurrection." - Pastor Roger
--- What do you call "acknowledging"?  That is surely not some passive thing that is happening to us.  That is something you're doing, and you believe that you cannot be saved unless you do this thing. ----

"Accepting is salvation." - RKJ
--- Once again, what is accepting? Who is doing this accepting? ---

"when he grows up he will still have to make a personal decision to believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved." - DreamWeaver
--- Ephesians 2:8-9 - "For by grace you have been saved through faith.  And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."


I must have posted my "faith like a child" theory six or seven times, and no one has sufficiently replied.  This is no game, this is a debate, considering it's under the "debate" section.  Anybody want to give it a shot?  

Rather than accusing me as if my posts were malicious and leaving it at that, why can't you continue this discourse?  You believe what you believe for a reason.  I believe what I believe for a reason, and I'm using a heck of a lot of Scripture to back it up.  If I'm twisting it, tell me how rather than just telling me that I am.

[Shammu]

Ruth you asked about a child being  Baptised, I answered you and you didn't like the answer I gave you. In order for my statement to make sense you have to post the whole post. So on that note...........

Obviously, it is impossible for infants to place their faith in Christ or publicly declare their faith. The Bible does not record a single infant being baptized.

Romans 6:3-4 Are you ignorant of the fact that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?  4 We were buried therefore with Him by the baptism into death, so that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious [power] of the Father, so we too might [habitually] live and behave in newness of life.
Acts 2:38 And Peter answered them, Repent (change your views and purpose to accept the will of God in your inner selves instead of rejecting it) and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of and release from your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

If parents wish to dedicate their child to Christ, then a baby dedication service is entirely appropriate. Even if a baby is dedicated to the Lord, when he grows up he will still have to make a personal decision to believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved.

[RKJ]

- Christ gives us the power to choose Him (If Christ gives all men the power to choose Him, then how are people NOT choosing Him?  Or does Christ's power not work in some cases?)

Here is what I'm saying

- Salvation comes from God alone.  There is nothing we can do to get it for ourselves.  We cannot, by our own reason or strength, invite Him in or make some sort of "decision" for Him. (see second point's Scriptural citations)
- God grants the repentence that leads to life-giving faith, which is also from God (Acts 11:17-18, Phillipians 1:28-29, John 1:12-13, John 15:16, Ephesians 1:3-5, Romans 9:14-16)
- Jesus tells us to have faith like children.  He says "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it." (Luke 18:17).  Children cannot choose or make a decision for themselves regarding salvation, and this is the type of faith we're supposed to have.  

Ruth,

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Rev 3:20

You say we have nothing to do!  We got to open the door when He knocks!  God has indeed given us free will to choose.  In spite of the Holy Spirit's conviction of my sins I still can keep my back to God .  Gospel is being preached more than ever.  Do you think everyone who heard it were not convicted of their sins?  If all had made a 'decision', 2/3rd of the world would be in.

All  hear the voice of Jesus, they still do not want to open the door, coz it means that their way of life was wrong, it would mean that they need to change....it is very baffling to anyone.  Children can never get this - except those who have been under unbearable sufering.

If it is the decision part that stops God, why dont He take us up while we are indeed children?  That way He need not stand the rejection by many.  He need not be full of enduring grace!

I am sure you are a saved faithful steward of God.  Perhaps, you need to unlearn the 'helpless mentatlity in accepting salvation' you were taught. Or you were so helpless to make the decision and God knew it and accepted as you were.  That does not mean that it will apply to all.

I like your unrelenting questioning mind!  But it can also be very limiting in Christian life.

I hope I was clear somewhere in this post!!

[Shammu]

One more question, which will spark more discussion.  If we need to move it to another thread, then so be it.  What is the standard Evangelical/Protestant view of Holy Communion?

It seems that Ruth is following the doctrine of man. Not the Doctrine of God. I don't know how I missed that before.

[Ruth]

My "faith like a child" model didn't have much to do with baptism.  Here is the premise, once again:

- Jesus tells us to have faith like a child.  Luke 18:17 - "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it."
- You say that a child cannot make the decision to accept Jesus (and rightfully so).  Therefore you say they can't have faith (wrongly so, because Jesus says they can).
- This observation does not change what Jesus said.  He still tells us to receive Him as a child would receive Him.  Where does this leave us?

My conclusion:  We cannot accept Christ, just as children cannot accept Christ, but children have faith, therefore we may have faith, because it is granted to us by the Father.  It is not of our own doing.  

And RKJ, thank you for being so kind.  I appreciate it.  I know we don't agree, but we can at least be cordial and encourage each other in exploring our faith.  However, regarding our "helplessness"...I was.  We all were.  In fact, being dead in trespasses is even MORE hopeless than being helpless, if you catch my drift:  

Ephesians 2:1-10:  "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."


Yes, we open the door.  But not by our own will, strength, merit, or power.  

[Ruth]

It seems that Ruth is following the doctrine of man. Not the Doctrine of God. I don't know how I missed that before.

Uh...?  I believe communion's in the Bible...maybe I'm mistaken?

[nicole rork]

PS:  Thank you to bronzesnake for being very understanding and open about this situation.  I hope to keep in touch with you.

[Shammu]

Uh...?  I believe communion's in the Bible...maybe I'm mistaken?

You asked for a Evangelical/Protestant view. I don't follow mans doctrine, I follow the Bible, not man.

By the way, yes, Communion is in the Bible, I believe it is said 9 times.  In Psalms, Proverbs, 3 times in 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, and 2 times in 1 John. That I can remember off the top of my head.

[Ruth]

You'll need to explain yourself a little more, DreamWeaver.  How am I following man's doctrine?

[RKJ]

And RKJ, thank you for being so kind.  I appreciate it.  I know we don't agree, but we can at least be cordial and encourage each other in exploring our faith.  However.....

Yes, we open the door.  But not by our own will, strength, merit, or power.  

Yay! Ruth's got a new friend!!

Well Ruth, with my own will, strength, merit, or power i can very well 'not open' the door. I am an example.  It was Jesus who kept knocking, telling me about my miserable living and promising me life eternal.  I kept rejecting Him and I am no super human with uper strength.  i just wanted to live in the stink of my sin.

But sure enough as you say, I was helpless too when i did finally accept Him, but still it was not a numb move.

I am sure others have mentioned this in different ways.

[Ruth]

Yay! Ruth's got a new friend!!

Well Ruth, with my own will, strength, merit, or power i can very well 'not open' the door. I am an example.  It was Jesus who kept knocking, telling me about my miserable living and promising me life eternal.  I kept rejecting Him and I am no super human with uper strength.  i just wanted to live in the stink of my sin.

But sure enough as you say, I was helpless too when i did finally accept Him, but still it was not a numb move.

I am sure others have mentioned this in different ways.

If we were talking about this in person, I'd shake your hand.  I truly am grateful for your kindness on the board. 

Now...back to our regularly scheduled program...

[RKJ]

Do you guys ever, EVER sleep???!!