Baptism

[Rhys]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2006-04-12-baptism-trend_x.htm

"statistics find Americans slowly drifting away from the ancient baptismal ritual."

Our church hasn't experienced this, at least not yet. We usually have a crowd at baptismal services (we baptise believers by immersion, but don't practice infant baptism). We are planning on building a baptismal tank into our new building.

What is your experience at your church? What is your reaction to the article?

[airIam2worship]

Hi Rhys, I don't think I've ever had a chance to welcome you to CU, so glad to have you.
At our church almost everyone stays for Baptismals we just love to see our new brothers and sisters  get baptized. We also have a Baptimal in our church, complete immersion, I believe that is the only true way to be baptized. 

[JudgeNot]

This is interesting - I heard something about it on the way to work this morning.  Right off the top, I will say I'm skeptical of USA Today - they aren't much more reliable than the New York Times.  I'm also suspicious of any story line that begins with "statistics indicate..."  A “Statistic" is a strange animal, something akin to a chameleon.  It changes to adapt to its environment and most often the environment is faultily controlled by the statistician.   

Having expressed my doubts, let’s say the story is actually true (from my experiences it is just the opposite) but let’s just say it is true.  According to statistics (obviously controlled by a different statistician than used by the USA Today) Christianity remains the fastest growing religion. (1) 

If Christianity is growing, why are baptisms declining?  What could logically cause it?  The story seems to indicate Christian apathy.  If baptism is declining due to apathy, then that would fall directly on the shoulders of our pastoral leadership.  It would also indicate we, as Evangelicals, are not stressing the importance of public commitment to Jesus through water baptism. 

For all the prophesy buffs out there - is there anything in prophesy that addresses a decline in baptism?  If so, I may take the story seriously.  I tend to think it is just a not-so-subtle jab at Christianity by USA Today liberals.  The liberal’s mission is to marginalize Christianity, and they’ll never miss a chance.   

(1) [Some indicators show Islam is the fastest growing, but sword-point conversions don’t sway the heart.  There is a difference in practicing Islam and bending to Islam.] 

I hope ya’ll have a GREAT Resurrection Day!  May Jesus be with you and yours – and please be safe!  I’m doing a 1,000 mile round trip (Austin to north of Amarillo) with my daughter.  Will do Sunrise Services at Palo Duro Canyon (I hope).
God bless all,       
Jim

[Lou]

Hi guys.  My church also does not do infant baptism as we believe it must be a personal choice.  Also, the thought that an infant won't be protected or assured salvation by God unless they are baptized goes against the very nature of God.  Again, I am talking about infants who have not yet reached the age of accountability. 

We do full immersion baptism at a river not far from our church.  We love it.  There's barbeque and worship and all that stuff.  The only thing I would say airIam2worship, is that I tend to stay away from making statements like "the only true way" when it pertains to anything other than the gospel of Jesus Christ.  It makes a statement that leans towards legalism and focuses on the outward instead of the inward.

I once baptized a child at a kids camp who loved Jesus with all his heart and wanted everyone to know that he belonged to Him but he was afraid of getting in the river.  Should we have told him God would not honor his decision?  I grabbed a couple of gallons of water and baptized that kid!!  And I believe God was pleased with that young boy.  Also, I have known of people on their death beds who give their lives to the Lord and ask to be baptized.  Not as a means to salvation but in a response to salvation.  And they too have been sprinkled with the waters of baptism.

Praise God that He will not allow Himself to be placed in a box, and that He looks at the heart of men.

[airIam2worship]

Lou thank you for the correction, I guess I wasn't thinking about how some people could be afraid of being immersed. I was more thinking along the lines of infants being baptized, with a few sprinklings of water poured on their forehead.

  my bad, sorry.

[So_Says_I]

I guess I'll break the trend and say that my church-body DOES baptize infants.  We're against the whole "choice" thing.  We don't believe that natural man is capable of choosing salvation by himself, and baptism reflects this.  Baptism is not something that we're doing for God, it's something God is doing TO us.  Infant baptism shows that we do not depend on ourselves for salvation, that is a act completed soley by God.  I'm not saying that baptism is the point at which you're saved, but we consider it a "sacrament," meaning it's more than just the symbol that many protestant churches say it is.  And...baptism from a font is just as legitimate and effective as baptism by immerision.  I've never seen a baptism by immersion, actually.  Maybe I should.  Do churches do immersion just because it's an early church tradition?  If that's the case, they better start practicing closed communion!

[Soldier4Christ]

We don't believe that natural man is capable of choosing salvation by himself

Are you saying that God does not call all men to Salvation? Do you think that baptising infants ensures that they will accept Christ as their Saviour?

Baptism is used in two different situations in the Bible. One is in the case of water and one is in the case of the Holy Spirit. One must be careful when studying what the Bible says about baptism that they do not mix the two. When a person mixes the two they tend to return to placing the law back into their doctrine.

[airIam2worship]

SosaysI, I have never read in the Bible where infants are Baptized. Baptism follows salvation, salvation is a choice made by each person, God does not force anyone int accepting the free gift of salvation, it is a matter of personal chioce a choice that has to be made when a person is old enough to assume the fact that we are all born sinners, and be old enough to confess his sins to God, repent of them and ask God for forgiveness. Then accepting the Lord Jesus as their personal Savior, all of this is done by faith. An infant is not aware of having been born in a sinful state, nor does an infant know how to confess his sin or repent and accept Jesus as his/her Savior. Each person has to be accountable for him/herself. This is something that no one else can do for us.

 Mr 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Notice 'baptism of repentance' how can an infant know enough to repent. No one is able to repent of someone elses' sin for them except the sinner himself.

 Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

 Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Again, notice the Scripture says 'repent and be ye baptized'. How can an infant repent?

 Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

How is a person born again? By receiving the Lord Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. I am sure you are familiar with John 3:16

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

[Ruth]

First addressing the whole "no choosing" thing, which is really the centrality of the debate:

Ephesians 1:4-5  "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, He predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will." 

Ephesians 1:11 - "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will."

John 1:12-13 - "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."


John 3:27 John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven.

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (gk.-helko-to drag) him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 5:21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.

Ephesians 2:8-10  "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,  not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."


Acceping or choosing God seems a bit like works righteouness to me.  Wouldn't choosing be considered a work?  But no, we're saved through grace, not by anything we have done.  Only by God choosing US do we have the power to "choose" Him.

And so it goes with baptism.  Did we have anything to do with our first birth?  Then why would we have anything to do with our second? 

And regarding infant baptism, Jesus promoted the ideal faith as being that of a child's.  And yet we deem them as not being worthy of baptism?  Who is it doing all the killing and the stealing and commiting adultery and taking the Lord's name in vain?  It's not infants, I'll tell you that much. 

[Soldier4Christ]

First addressing the whole "no choosing" thing, which is really the centrality of the debate:

Ephesians 1:4-5  "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, He predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will." 

Ephesians 1:11 - "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will."

John 1:12-13 - "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."


John 3:27 John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven.

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (gk.-helko-to drag) him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 5:21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.

Ephesians 2:8-10  "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,  not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."


Acceping or choosing God seems a bit like works righteouness to me.  Wouldn't choosing be considered a work?  But no, we're saved through grace, not by anything we have done.  Only by God choosing US do we have the power to "choose" Him.

And so it goes with baptism.  Did we have anything to do with our first birth?  Then why would we have anything to do with our second? 

And regarding infant baptism, Jesus promoted the ideal faith as being that of a child's.  And yet we deem them as not being worthy of baptism?  Who is it doing all the killing and the stealing and commiting adultery and taking the Lord's name in vain?  It's not infants, I'll tell you that much. 

Hello Ruth (So_Says_I),

While you are correct that God must choose (or call) us first it is also true that we must then accept or reject him. It is not just a select few that are called as some predistinist seem to think. After all God has told us:

1Ti 2:4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

God would not have any be left behind but there will be those that are called that will still reject him.

 

[Ruth]

I'm sorry I had to change names, my password wouldn't work and I guess I didn't set a password retriever question. 

Anyhow, in my theology class last semester, our prof suggested to our class that all people are born under God's grace (because Christ took away the sins of the world upon the cross) and we can reject that salvation, but since He already saved us, we can't accept it or choose it.  It's there.  He's done it to us.  That is His saving work.  Maybe we're just mincing words here, but when it comes to salvation, I can't see any part of the process being handed over to human beings.  I don't believe double predestination is scripturally accurate (God chose some and damned others).  I also don't believe we can accept Him.  It's one of those divine mystery things, I suppose.   

[Soldier4Christ]

The statement "all people are born under God's grace" is a concept that is usually adhered to by universalists. It is the idea that all men are already saved without our doing anything. We know that this is not true as the Bible specifically tells us that those people that reject him will spend an eternity in Hell.

Heb 12:25  See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:


2 Peter 2

[Ruth]

It sounded like universalism to me as well...at first.  I haven't quite bought into it yet.  But I'm chewing on it. 

Anyway, I said that we could reject it.  I still don't think we can do the work of "accepting" it.  Of making a conscious decision apart from God.  How does that NOT qualify as a work?

[Soldier4Christ]

When we accept Salvation through Jesus Christ we are not doing "works" we are simply acknowledging the good works that Jesus Christ did for us on the cross and through His resurrection. We believe in Him and the works that He did for us. It is through faith in Him and His works that saves and nothing that we ourselves have done or will do. Some would say that having faith would be considered works yet the Bible is clear in this aspect that it is through faith that we are saved.

[Shammu]

When we accept Salvation through Jesus Christ we are not doing "works" we are simply acknowledging the good works that Jesus Christ did for us on the cross and through His resurrection. We believe in Him and the works that He did for us. It is through faith in Him and His works that saves and nothing that we ourselves have done or will do. Some would say that having faith would be considered works yet the Bible is clear in this aspect that it is through faith that we are saved.

AMEN brother, sing it out LOUD!