Baptism

[Lou]

Good morning all.  I see you all had quite a discussion last night.  I confess I grew frustrated and tired of this one a long time ago.  I have debated with whether I should post or not, as I can tell that no amount of scripture or direct answers will appease those who do not want to be who do not want to be.

Ruth, please know that what I say is motivated by compassion and especially love for God's word and people.  You speak about child like faith.  The Lord also said about children "suffer not the little ones to come unto me."  Your views, whether you know it or not, are a stumbling block for those who are seeking and who are not familiar with the word of God.  Any doctrine that stops short of accepting Jesus Christ is, very bluntly,  an evil one, no matter how righteous or selfless we make it sound. 

Colossians Chp2

4 Now this I say lest anyone should deceive you with persuasive words. 5 For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ.
6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving.

We need to receive it.  Plain and simple.  Was Paul saying that they received salvation through works?  C'mon.  Enough is enough. 

Acts 16 30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

The man or woman who accepts Jesus, accepts also the fact that only Jesus can save them.  Was Paul suggesting to the Jailer that believing in Jesus Christ was a work?  And this was how he would be saved?  Absolutely not.  God never lies, never contradicts Himself.  Through His death on the cross, Jesus bridged the gap between God and man.  We still have to decide whether we want to cross it.

About the childrens faith.  Children have the same questions adults have.  "How do we know the bible is real?  Why is Jesus the only way?"  The difference is that when a child or most children receive the answer, they say "Oh...ok", and then the discussion is closed and they believe it.  They feel no need to voice their opinion or sound intelligent with their many words, they simply accept it(again, most).  This is the kind of faith Jesus meant when he compared us to children.  I admit, I lost you on your interpretation of that scripture. 

By the way, Mods hurrying to answer your post isn't necessarily a good thing.  When they see doctrine contrary to the word of God, they MUST be there to take a stand....if not for your sake, then for the sake of those who might read it and be confused by it.

[Soldier4Christ]

Amen Lou, very well said.

[airIam2worship]

Good morning all.  I see you all had quite a discussion last night.  I confess I grew frustrated and tired of this one a long time ago.  I have debated with whether I should post or not, as I can tell that no amount of scripture or direct answers will appease those who do not want to be who do not want to be.

Lou, my feelings exactly, as you notice I stopped posting a few pages ago, sometimes it's easier to stuff an elephant into a bottle, if you know what i mean

[airIam2worship]

There is no one more deaf than a person that refuses to hear or more blind than a person that refuses to see. Now to borrow a phrase from Forrest Gump:
"And that's all I have to say about that." 

[Ruth]

You can denounce my beliefs all you wish, but I have given you a lot of Scripture which many of you haven't even come close to touching.  I know all the verses say "believe" and "receive," etc, and I believe that.  My difference with you is from where the power comes to believe and receive these things, and I say it's from God.  

My words are inadequete, so I'll leave you with an official statement on the subject from my church-body, and that'll be it.


Of the Election of Grace
  (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, N.D.)
[Adopted 1932]

35. By the election of grace we mean this truth, that all those who by the grace of God alone, for Christ's sake, through the means of grace, are brought to faith, are justified, sanctified, and preserved in faith here in time, that all these have already from eternity been endowed by God with faith, justification, sanctification, and preservation in faith, and this for the same reason, namely, by grace alone, for Christ's sake, and by way of the means of grace. That this is the doctrine of the Holy Scripture is evident from Eph. 1:3-7; 2 Thess. 2:13, 14; Acts 13:48; Rom. 8:28-30; 2 Tim. 1:9; Matt. 24:22-24 (cp. Form. of Conc. Triglot, p. 1065, Paragraphs 5, 8, 23; M., p. 705).

36. Accordingly we reject as an anti-Scriptural error the doctrine that not alone the grace of God and the merit of Christ are the cause of the election of grace, but that God has, in addition, found or regarded something good in us which prompted or caused Him to elect us, this being variously designated as "good works," "right conduct," "proper self-determination," "refraining from willful resistance," etc. Nor does Holy Scripture know of an election "by foreseen faith," "in view of faith," as though the faith of the elect were to be placed before their election; but according to Scripture the faith which the elect have in time belongs to the spiritual blessings with which God has endowed them by His eternal election. For Scripture teaches Acts 13:48: "And as many as were ordained unto eternal life believed." Our Lutheran Confession also testifies (Triglot, p. 1065, Paragraph 8; M. p. 705): "The eternal election of God however, not only foresees and foreknows the salvation of the elect, but is also, from the gracious will and pleasure of God in Christ Jesus, a cause which procures, works, helps, and promotes our salvation and what pertains thereto; and upon this our salvation is so founded that the gates of hell cannot prevail against it, Matt. 16:18, as is written John 10:28: `Neither shall any man pluck My sheep out of My hand'; and again, Acts 13:48: `And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.."'

37. But as earnestly as we maintain that there is an election of grace, or a predestination to salvation, so decidedly do we teach, on the other hand, that there is no election of wrath, or predestination to damnation. Scripture plainly reveals the truth that the love of God for the world of lost sinners is universal, that is, that it embraces all men without exception, that Christ has fully reconciled all men unto God, and that God earnestly desires to bring all men to faith, to preserve them therein, and thus to save them, as Scripture testifies, 1 Tim. 2:4: "God will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." No man is lost because God has predestined him to eternal damnation. -- Eternal election is a cause why the elect are brought to faith in time, Acts 13:48; but election is not a cause why men remain unbelievers when they hear the Word of God. The reason assigned by Scripture for this sad fact is that these men judge themselves unworthy of everlasting life, putting the Word of God from them and obstinately resisting the Holy Ghost, whose earnest will it is to bring also them to repentance and faith by means of the Word, Act 13:46; 7:51; Matt. 23:37.

38. To be sure, it is necessary to observe the Scriptural distinction between the election of grace and the universal will of grace. This universal gracious will of God embraces all men; the election of grace, however, does not embrace all, but only a definite number, whom "God hath from the beginning chosen to salvation," 2 Thess. 2:13, the "remnant," the "seed" which "the Lord left," Rom. 9:27- 29, the "election," Rom. 11:7; and while the universal will of grace is frustrated in the case of most men, Matt. 22:14; Luke 7:30, the election of grace attains its end with all whom it embraces, Rom. 8:28-30. Scripture, however, while distinguishing between the universal will of grace and the election of grace, does not place the two in opposition to each other. On the contrary, it teaches that the grace dealing with those who are lost is altogether earnest and fully efficacious for conversion. Blind reason indeed declares these two truths to be contradictory; but we impose silence on our reason. The seeming disharmony will disappear in the light of heaven, 1 Cor. 13:12.

39. Furthermore, by election of grace, Scripture does not mean that one part of God's counsel of salvation according to which He will receive into heaven those who persevere in faith unto the end, but, on the contrary, Scripture means this, that God, before the foundation of the world, from pure grace, because of the redemption of Christ, has chosen for His own a definite number of persons out of the corrupt mass and has determined to bring them through Word and Sacrament, to faith and salvation.

40. Christians can and should be assured of their eternal election. This is evident from the fact that Scripture addresses them as the chosen ones and comforts them with their election, Eph. 1:4; 2 Thess. 2:13. This assurance of one's personal election, however, springs only from faith in the Gospel, from the assurance that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; on the contrary, through the life, suffering, and death of His Son He fully reconciled the whole world of sinners unto Himself. Faith in this truth leaves no room for the fear that God might still harbor thoughts of wrath and damnation concerning us. Scripture inculcates that in Rom. 8:32, 33: "He that spared not His own Son, but gave Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth." Luther's pastoral advice is therefore in accord with Scripture: "Gaze upon the wounds of Christ and the blood shed for you; there predestination will shine forth." (St. Louis ed., II, 181; on Gen. 26:9) That the Christian obtains the personal assurance of his eternal election in this way is taught also by our Lutheran Confessions (Formula of Concord, Triglot, p. 1071, Paragraph 26, M. 709): "Of this we should not judge according to our reason nor according to the Law or from any external appearance. Neither should we attempt to investigate the secret, concealed abyss of divine predestination, but should give heed to the revealed will of God. For He has made known unto us the mystery of His will and made it manifest through Christ that it might be preached, Eph. 1:9ff.; 2 Tim. 1:9f." -- In order to insure the proper method of viewing eternal election and the Christian's assurance of it, the Lutheran Confessions set forth at length the principle that election is not to be considered "in a bare manner (nude), as though God only held a muster, thus: `This one shall be saved, that one shall be damned"' (Formula of Concord, Triglot, p. 1065, Paragraph 9; M., p. 706); but "the Scriptures teach this doctrine in no other way than to direct us thereby to the Word, Eph. 1:13; 1 Cor. 1:7; exhort to repentance, 2 Tim. 3:16; urge to godliness, Eph. 1:14; John 15:3; strengthen faith and assure us of our salvation, Eph. 1:13; John 10:27f.; 2 Thess. 2:13f." (Formula of Concord, Triglot, p. 1067, Paragraph 12; M., p. 707). -- To sum up, just as God in time draws the Christian unto Himself through the Gospel, so He has already in His eternal election endowed them with "sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth," 2 Thess. 2:13. Therefore: If, by the grace of God, you believe in the Gospel of the forgiveness of your sins for Christ's sake, you are to be certain that you also belong to the number of God's elect, even as Scripture, 2 Thess. 2:13, addresses the believing Thessalonians as the chosen of God and gives thanks to God for their election.
 


And by the time children start questioning things about the Bible, haven't they about reached their "age of accountability"?  They're beginning to reason and make decisions and come to their own conclusions on things.  I'm sorry, that entire doctrine escapes me.  I have not heard of it in Scripture.

[RKJ]

Whoa! Ruth 

I just realized that my brain is short of neurons already!  Did you go through all this text before you accepted Jesus?

I have mentioned elsewhere that there are places where people accept Jesus without even knowing that there is a book called Bible.  They then grow on to become great Christians - all the while havng only gospel of Mark or John in their language!!  They bring bounty of souls for God!  With all due respect, will this text benefit them in any way!! 

Loosen up Friend!!  Jesus loves you and you love Him with all your heart and that is what that matters and that is what you (and I) are worth.  Not the doctrines.  They will vanish.  Even this forum will be unattended when Jesus comes.  And if I bring this text to you when you are gazing at Jesus face, you will clobber me really bad!!

So my point is, dont think you are being a target.  This forum is not to change views of christian people.  It is to help them grow in a steady pace in Jesus.  There is no place for remorse!!

Hope your studies are going fine.

[Soldier4Christ]

Amen again RKJ. There are many that have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour that didn't even have one page of the Bible.



Ruth I stand by what I said before. You are confused and it is easy to see why with that long winded doctrine that you have been taught. It was said before and I will repeat it, get away from the manmade doctrines. Turn to the Bible and study just the Bible. Insure that before you start that you ask God for guidance and to give you the knowledge that you seek not the knowldge of men that will draw you into the wrong way.

[Ruth]

Thank you RKJ.  You are such a sweetheart.  I can't stress that enough    But I realize that this is a debate forum, not a conversion forum.  I did not say you need to read the LCMS's text on the election of grace to be saved, I'm just offering it as a scholarly view on the position of our Church.  Note it is laden with Scripture.
My only point in posting it is that I'm not making any of what I'm saying.  

And of course people can believe when only possessing one or two Gospels...the Word is powerful.  It works salvation no matter how much or how little of if you've heard.  

[Ruth]

Pastor Roger, I do not understand why you persist in telling me that my doctrine is man-made.  If you're referring to the piece of official doctrine I posted, it, as I already pointed out, is full of Scripture.  Lutheran's don't teach ANYTHING without having a ton of Bible to back it up. 

[Soldier4Christ]

Pastor Roger, I do not understand why you persist in telling me that my doctrine is man-made.  If you're referring to the piece of official doctrine I posted, it, as I already pointed out, is full of Scripture.  Lutheran's don't teach ANYTHING without having a ton of Bible to back it up. 

There is a lot of selective scripture in it yes, there is also a ton of manmade doctrine that is utilizing that selective scripture. That is why it is important to study the Bible in whole not to be taught manmade doctrines. There are many that use scriptures selectively in that manner in order to prove some of the most foulest blasphemies there are. We are told to study to show ourselves approved. We need to study the Bible as a whole and to insure that we study what happened before the cross and after. And to be able to see what is and is not good doctrine. What you posted above is not good doctrine. I could point it out to you verse by verse however you would probably do the same as you have done so far, discounted all the verses that I have given so it is better if I just tell you to through away man doctrine and turn to studying the Bible and asking God to show you the way.

[Ruth]

You have not replied to ANY of the verses on election/predestination that I've posted.  It's there.  God is doing something in these verses.  When he ordains, elects, or predestines, it's His action.  I cannot and will not take God's credit when it is His saving action that saves me.

And considering the amount of Scripture used in the above statement, I hardly believe you can call that "selective."  I trust that you took the time to read through it all and look up all the citations of course, in order to make your "selective" accusation.

And that's that.  I'm done with this particular conversation.  I'm sure you're all sick of it too, you've already expressed those sentiments.  If you have any more questions you'd like to ask me, feel free.  I'm always willing to answer. 

[Soldier4Christ]

Read back through the thread again Ruth. Your questions were responded to. You simply chose to ignore or reject them as qualified answers. Again that is why I strongly suggest that you turn to the Bible for yourself and not that manmade doctrine.

[Ruth]

Read back through the thread again Ruth. Your questions were responded to. You simply chose to ignore or reject them as qualified answers. Again that is why I strongly suggest that you turn to the Bible for yourself and not that manmade doctrine.

I have not read any specific replies to any of the verses on predestination/election I posted.  You always countered with verses that said we have to believe, and I do not doubt that.  I'm saying the power to believe comes from God, not our own will or strength.  You have not directly confronted the Ephesians 1/2verses, the John 1/15 verses, the Romans 9 verses, etc...According to you, these verses cannot possibly mean what they're saying, but you haven't told me why not yet.  You just keep citing verses that say "believe."  I know we have to believe!  But from where does this faith come from?  From God. 

Once again, I'm open to questions.

[Lou]

I know we have to believe! 

Ruth, going off of your other posts, you would now be guilty of works.  No one ever denied where the power comes from.  All you have heard has been along the lines of "acknowledgement of God's power to save us."  This goes to show that one hears what one chooses to hear. 

From the get go, you decided that all those who said they accepted Jesus, were taking credit for their salvation.  It was addressed and expressed in a dozen different ways, you disagree with all of them.  You have judged the hearts of those here and have NOT assumed the best.  No one is trying to steal God's glory.  It is not your stance that God's power saves us, that I disagree with.  It's your stance that by acknowledging that power, I am guilty of works, that I disagree with.

[Ruth]

Ruth, going off of your other posts, you would now be guilty of works.  No one ever denied where the power comes from.  All you have heard has been along the lines of "acknowledgement of God's power to save us."  This goes to show that one hears what one chooses to hear. 

From the get go, you decided that all those who said they accepted Jesus, were taking credit for their salvation.  It was addressed and expressed in a dozen different ways, you disagree with all of them.  You have judged the hearts of those here and have NOT assumed the best.  No one is trying to steal God's glory.  It is not your stance that God's power saves us, that I disagree with.  It's your stance that by acknowledging that power, I am guilty of works, that I disagree with.

I have judged the hearts of those here?  What about when I was called blind, deaf, confused, and twisted?  What about when some told me I was laughing at God and playing games and following man-made doctrine?

And talk about man-made doctrine...I have more Scriptural proof to support election than you do for Age of Accountability.  Accusing me of man-made doctrine seems a little hypocritical. 

Rookieupgrade1 said the following: "God changed my life because I invited him in."   Is this still just acknowledgement?

One of these days I'll stop replying, I swear.     The line about me judging people's hearts just irked me a bit.