Joel Osteen and the Prosperity Gospel

[So_Says_I]

Hi folks.  I've found that this is a nice place to talk theology (if you keep your nose clean, which I must admit I can have trouble with sometimes).  Anyway, I've done a bit of reading around here, and I've come to appreciate the diversity in views on different topics, etc...

So here's something I've been discussing with friends lately:  Joel Osteen and his prosperity gospel.  Is the concept of "if you do good, God'll do good to you (with financial wealth, happiness, health, etc...)" a sound theological doctrine?  Lately I've been watching a lot of his sermons online, because rumor has it he heads the largest church in America.  What I saw worried me, quite frankly.  There wasn't too much about Jesus or forgiveness or the Gospel.  Most of the content dealt with living a good, decent, capitalist life in this world.  And that's fine...but is that what should be spoken about in church?  I don't expect to come to church for self-help or goofy stories.  I come to hear the Word of God and commune with others.  The whole concept of a "mega-church" seems a little off-kilter to me, as well.  So that's up for discussion, too.  This thread is fair game. 

And of course, if we need examples/proof of some of Joel's wackier and more questionable statements, I'll be happy to provide them.  And of course, there's wackier people out there (Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, etc...) but Joel seems to be in the public eye a lot these days, and even seems to represent Christianity.  I'm a little frightened by that. 

And if this topic has already been talked to death, forgive me. 

[Lou]

Hi So Says I,

First let me say that if Joel Osteen is half as nice as he seems on TV, then he is about 10 times nicer than I am.  He seems like a great guy and from the surface, it looks like the Lord is blessing his ministry.  However, I agree with your concerns.  One can't help but to think that Joel is heading up what some would call a seeker sensitive church.  Joel is an expert at encouraging people, as he has said from time to time "You've had a tough week, you don't want to come here and get more depressed, you need encouragement."

The problem with that can be compared to "too much candy, not enough meat and veggies".

I very rarely hear the gospel in his messages.  I don't hear him speak about sin.  I hear a lot of motivational speaking.   I do believe that Joel's messages at least sparks an interest in God that some wouldn't necessarily be open to had they heard it anywhere else.  I know many nonbelievers who say to me "no, I don't go to church, but sometimes I listen to that guy on TV, Joel something....I like him."  I think they like him because there is no conviction in his messages, and therefore no need for change. 

I believe that we all need some encouragement, but what good does encouragement here on earth mean if I'm dying and going to hell?  "one charge I give you", Paul told Timothy, "preach the word."  Is Joel doing that?  I would say that his message and the message of those who do not specifically call out a need for Jesus Christ is incomplete. 

Hope no one is offended, I promise to be open to all opinions as you have been open to mine.

[ggamble]

Greetings Brother's -- About Joel

   Yes, I too, have had some thoughts in that area, but as you said God is blessing his ministry. But I have heard him preach too, he says that "This my Bible" thing which I know by heart. He always locks into the Word, from what I have heard, I also listen to him on the net. And when he is done with the broadcast he always gives that call to Christ, and prays for them to find a Gospel based Church. It's a simply prayer, but he makes the call, the rest is up to their choice and the Father.
  But I don't agree with them ministries that make the Father as to the likes of a gum machine. Blessing's by the worlds standards maybe in materialism,  but, Paul mentioned about being content, that's how I govern my walk. If He blesses me, blessed be His name, if not, Blessed be His name. I'm already blessed by what Jesus did on the cross. He gives and takes away, but I do see ministries not going into that part of the Gospel, which is to "Carry the Cross". It's as if you see a pick out what will tickle the ears and instead of the Word, touching one's heart. There's not a perfect church or ministry, or however you want to call a gathering of the Saints, to worship and be taught.
   I know the Lord, polices His own, that's where I leave it and pray for them. There are some big, well  blessed ministries these days, and still a lot of people here in the states, hungry, homeless, or a paycheck away from it. I'm  sure there are ministries that run it as the Gospel has guidelines for in giving to them that suffer, and are  without. At least thats what I hope and pray for. I guess the evidence would be that the area's around their ministry would not be in poverty, or in big decline in that area. I wonder if there is any proof of that out there? But I also know this truth, "God is in control". What I may not hear in the sermon, someone in the Church may have needed too, praise Jesus. I pray what I hear is Spirit led.

Only always for Jesus
in the love of a brother
ggamble

[Evangelist]

The first question really is, is the prosperity "gospel" really in scripture?

It is ONLY if you fall into the camp of those who believe that the church has completely replaced Israel, and by replacing Israel has also inherited all of the promises made by God to Israel.  Of course, those who do that run into a little problem....that being that if one inherits all the blessings (prosperity and blessings in return for obedience), then one also has to inherit all the curses (plagues, blasting and mildew, palmerworms, etc) for disobedience.  And what is the obedience to?  The Law. 

As Paul made clear, we either live by the law (and are judged by it) or we live by grace, and are given mercy.

Joel falls into the class of those spoken of by Ezekiel, which today we call "pillow prophets," or those who will tell everyone what is soothing and pleasing to the ear, rather than the hard facts and truth.  Paul spoke about it when he warned Timoth that "in the last days, perilous times will come.....and they shall heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears."  Jude also spoke to the issue, warning of "those who have crept in unawares (while we wern't watching properly)....and have run greedily after the error of Balaam..."

Does Jesus want every Christian to be blessed in this world?  Listen to His words:
"...the Son of Man has NO PLACE to lay his head..."
"...in this world you will be hated..."
"...if the world hates me, then it will hate you also..."

Does Jesus want every preacher to drive a Rolls Royce (so saith T. D. Jakes)?
Does Jesus believe that every preacher should give his wife a 25 karat diamond ring (so saith Rod Parsley)?
Did Jesus wear designer clothing (so saith John Avanzini)?

Or did Jesus say "in this world you will have tribulation (trials and troubles)?
And didn't He tell us that we have "...already been blessed in ALL things in heavenly places?"

There is only ONE Gospel...and it is the gospel of redemption from SIN (which MUST be spoken of) through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.  Our reward is in heaven...not on this earth.

And I seriously doubt that God is blessing a ministry that does not speak of sin, righteouness and judgment to come.  It is being blessed by the one who does NOT want the true Gospel preached.  The devil wants everyone to feel comfortable in this world...after all, it belongs to him........for now.

[Soldier4Christ]

Amen, Evangelist. We should also remember the following words.


Mar 10:23  And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!


Luk 8:14  And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.


Mat 6:19  Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
Mat 6:20  But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Mat 6:21  For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.


If a person has a lot of wealth on this earth they are not doing as Jesus has told us to do. That person is being self centered and is not helping the needy enough.



Mat 19:21  Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

[Lou]

Amen Evangelist!

You said it perfectly.  I believe in my heart that many times men mistake a big church (Joel's is the biggest in America) as one that is being blessed by God.  Is it a work of God or of men???  Remember that the "church" of the golden calf was a pretty big one too.

[Soldier4Christ]

Amen Evangelist!

You said it perfectly.  I believe in my heart that many times men mistake a big church (Joel's is the biggest in America) as one that is being blessed by God.  Is it a work of God or of men???  Remember that the "church" of the golden calf was a pretty big one too.

Your post made me think of the Muslims. Some of the most properous people in the world. Just recently they started construction on a mosque in Boston that is expected to cost at least  22 million dollars. Just another point that being properous is not evidence of being Godly.

[glennd]

Two questions:

  1.  It sounds as if you believe all Christains should be poor or, at least, that it is more spiritual to be poor than rich.  Is that correct?  Doesn't it take money to support missions, Christian schools, churches, pro-life, etc?

**
"As Paul made clear, we either live by the law (and are judged by it) or we live by grace, and are given mercy."

  2.  The Law is God's standard of righteousness.  Do you believe the law no longer applies?  Are we free to live in sin?  Granted, both Jesus and Paul attacked the law when misused as a method of salvation - we stand by grace alone.  But does that do away with the Law as God's standard of righteousness which the Holy Spirit is working in our lives?  God cared how people lived in the Old Testament but not the New? 

[Soldier4Christ]

I am not saying that all Christians should be poor. If we follow the word of Jesus though we will not be super rich. We are told to give to the poor. How can one give to the poor in the manner that Jesus told us and still be rich in earthly items?

Personally I do not see the link that you are making here to law and grace. This has nothing to do with that. It does have to do with whether one is following the words of Jesus.


Mar 10:21  Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.


Mat 6:19  Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
Mat 6:20  But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:


To put our money into fancy buildings made of overly expensive materials. I am not talking here of those with a lot of money that put the majority of it into the things that you mentioned (Christian schools, missions, etc) but rather those that adhere to the idea that if you are not wealthy then you are not walking right with God such as many of those in the prosperity "gospel" claim. Many of these claim "Get right with God and be prosperous". While this is a good statement it is not earthly wealth that God is talking about while it is what these people are talking about.

[Bronzesnake]

God gives a few plenty so that they will divide among the many who have little. God does not want anyone hoarding.
Here's something that few people consider. The reason why there are so many poor people is because there are a few mega rich people.

Some of us think money grows on trees in the President's back yard, and he has people (illegal aliens) who pick the money for a dollar an hour, and the money is continuously added into the economic machinery.

Think of the total amount of currency in our country as a giant pie. There is enough for everyone to be well fed, but not grow fat. However, some of us have huge sections of the pie, and therefore others are going hungry, while some are litterally starving. I'm not a communist by any stretch of the imagination. I believe our system of democracy with a capitalist system is the very best in the world, however, just as the baseball players who make zillions of dollars per game, we should really consider a salary cap, so the other teams can compete.

One of the major problems our countries have is credit. This system is responsible for more poverty and misery than a lot of us realize. This system is eventually going to be the cause of the total economic downfall of democratic, capitalists systems throughout the world. How can we pay debt on interest drawn from currency that doesn't exist?

The only way this system can and does keep going is that some must go broke and bankrupt so that there assets can be redistributed back into the system to keep it going for a little longer. Eventually our countries credit rating will be so bad that the economy will litterally crash for good. Enter satan and his cashless society my friends.

This subject is very complicated, and it is impossible to make clear even a wee portion of the details, so if my attempt is lacking please forgive, but I believe my point is made.

John

[Evangelist]

Two questions:

  1.  It sounds as if you believe all Christains should be poor or, at least, that it is more spiritual to be poor than rich.  Is that correct?  Doesn't it take money to support missions, Christian schools, churches, pro-life, etc?

Argumentum ad ridiculum....if you can't understand, or don't agree, then make it sound ridiculous.  That is NOT what was said, and you well know it.  The point is whether or not the gospel of health and wealth is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and I submit that it is NOT.

"As Paul made clear, we either live by the law (and are judged by it) or we live by grace, and are given mercy."

  2.  The Law is God's standard of righteousness.  Do you believe the law no longer applies?  Are we free to live in sin?  Granted, both Jesus and Paul attacked the law when misused as a method of salvation - we stand by grace alone.  But does that do away with the Law as God's standard of righteousness which the Holy Spirit is working in our lives?  God cared how people lived in the Old Testament but not the New? 

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Again, a false argument.  Since when does not living under the law mean that we are free to live in sin?  Did anyone say that we were free to live in sin?  I didn't think so.

Progressive sanctification (of the fleshly nature) is the result of the Holy Spirit working in our lives....not the result of obedience to the Law.  Failure in being perfectly obedient still results in grace and mercy, and thank God for that!

Quit setting up straw men and stick to the subject.  And that subject is....is the health and wealth prosperity "gospel" preached by Osteen and others a real gospel?  Does it convince of sin, righteousness, and judgment to come?  Does it speak of the atonement of Jesus through His suffering and death? 

I don't think so.

[Lou]

Hi Glennd,

I'm not entirely sure how you came to that conclusion with what was written but if I personally said something you misunderstood, then let me clarify.  Leaving Osteen completely out of this one, I will only address the prosperity movement.  I have heard false teachers say that God WANTS you to be rich.  Some even go so far as to say that if you aren’t, the Lord isn’t blessing you because you are in sin.  They scream “100 fold!  100 fold!”. 

The problem is that in every church that belongs to the prosperity movement, money is always part of the message.  As though Christ died to make you rich, not to save you from your sins.  They want you to live by faith, and give all you have.  By the way, why is it that the Pastor of the church is the only one of the congregation who is not required to live by faith??  Why is it that the nicest car in the parking lot belongs to the pastor, who is supposed to be the people’s servant?  If they truly believed their message, then why wouldn’t the church tithe to the people, so that the Lord would return their money 100 fold?

I personally have not watched enough Osteen to know whether he is a prosperity teacher.  To me, he is a minister of a watered down version of the gospel.  He tells the people what they want to hear, mainly: live right, pay your taxes, keep your lawn mowed, say your prayers at night, and you’ll get into heaven.  He never says “your sin separates you from God and if you choose to live your life separate from Christ, then God will honor that decision in eternity.”

I know many people whom the Lord has blessed greatly and they are awesome Christians.  The Lord didn’t tell the rich young ruler to give all he had because being rich was bad, He told him to give all he had because He knew that it was the one thing that kept him from following the Lord entirely.  The Lord wants you to get rid of whatever comes before Him.  Had the rich young ruler been a woman living in adultery sitting by a well, the Lord would have pointed that out instead. 

I have heard prosperity teachers twist scripture to fit their messages.  They quote scripture out of context and pull several verses from different books to make a complete thought.  They take 4 or 5 offerings a service and measure the faith of the people by how much money they give, not how faithfully they serve the Lord.  Worst of all, they cause young Christians, who aren’t yet familiar with what the word says, to stumble.  Bottom line…

We need to praise God for what he has already done for us, not for what he might do for us in the future.  If God never did anything for you again, glennd, would what he did on the cross be enough to follow Him, worship Him, live your life for Him?  Or does one need the promise of wealth  to do that?

[So_Says_I]

Whether or not it's ok to be "rich" or not is one thing, but the fact of the matter is that Joel is pretty much just lying.  He also takes verses out of context a lot.  I know, I get his daily devos by email.  Observe:

Today's Scripture

"...for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith." (I John 5:4)

Today's Word from Joel and Victoria

"As a child of God, you have the power of faith within you to overcome the world. That includes everything in the world, and everything the world brings your way! The Bible says that faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). As you hear the Word of God and store it in your heart, your faith in God grows stronger.

When the enemy tries to attack you through sickness, fear, worry, or financial mishaps, just use your faith by declaring the Word of God. Find scriptures to speak over your problem or whatever you are facing. Declare that perfect love casts out all fear! Declare that God shall supply all your needs! Declare that because you are born of God, you have faith to overcome the world!"

--------------------------------------------

See, when I read that verse, I immediately thought it hard spiritual/eternal life implications.  But Joel takes it the other way, to mean we'll overcome all of our problems in this life, if we just have "enough faith."  How much is enough, Joel?

Here's another:

Today's Scripture

"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb." (Psalm 139:13)

Today's Word from Joel and Victoria

"You are a person of destiny! God chose you to be here before the foundation of the world. God knew you before you were ever formed in your mother's womb. God made you with a purpose and you are a vital part of His divine plan.

You may not realize it right now, but you have God-given dreams and desires inside of you. The dream starts like a little flame, and throughout life you have to constantly add fuel to the fire to help it grow. As you continue to fellowship with Him and with fellow believers, God will reveal Himself to you in ways you never thought possible. He will reveal the dreams in your heart, and bring them to pass!

As you continue to seek the Lord and His wonderful plan for your life, you will discover victory in every area–you will discover the champion in you!"

---------------------------------------------

Here he is assuming that every desire that dwells within us is from God.  Ever heard of the devil, buddy?  I'm pretty sure that most of my desires are sinful.  In fact, I'm pretty sure that not much of what is in me is good, whatsoever.  But Joel just wants us to feel good about ourselves. 

There's a lot more where those came from...

[Rhys]

I have to confess I never heard of Joel Osteen, but I have heard the prosperity gospel.
What I wonder is what Christians in China, Sudan, Iraq, Pakistan, India, etc. would make of the message? It would make them appear to be weak in faith and not very good Christians - when in fact they probably have stronger faith than most of us!

Most of the world's Christians are NOT prosperous.

[nicole rork]

I have to confess I never heard of Joel Osteen, but I have heard the prosperity gospel.
What I wonder is what Christians in China, Sudan, Iraq, Pakistan, India, etc. would make of the message? It would make them appear to be weak in faith and not very good Christians - when in fact they probably have stronger faith than most of us!

Most of the world's Christians are NOT prosperous.

Agreed!  Joel's ministry only works on a capitalist country like America.  It doesn't seem to be working anywhere else.