Joel Osteen and the Prosperity Gospel

[RKJ]

Agreed!  Joel's ministry only works on a capitalist country like America.  It doesn't seem to be working anywhere else.

An update.  It is becoming popular in other places too.  After salvation, a believer is bombarded now with various kinds of preaching (thanks to four 24 hour christian channels).  When he comes across  prosperity preaching it obviously pleasing to  ears.  Though it is often stressed by prosperity preachers that they mean spiritual prosperity over material, listeners are far more interested in the latter.  Cant blame both - preacher and the hearer.

Agree that money is important, and if I know this Jesus knows better.  When He wants to give me enough, He surely do so sans a prosperity preacher.  I also do not know Joel.

[Len]

If "prosperity preaching" is Scriptural, then God the Father owes God the Son a huge apology.

Jesus was born in a cave normally occupied by farm animals. He lay in an eating trough as an infant. He was raised by a poor carpenter.

During His ministry, He didn't even have a place to lay His sweet head. He died naked on the cross while His clothes went to the guy with the "high card".

All this is true of One Who not only did not sin but obeyed His Heavenly Father even unto death.

Sorta shoots a big ol' hole in "prosperity preaching", huh?

[Kenny5682]

Please forgive me if I repeate something that somebody has already said, but this subject has been on my heart for quite some time.

Joel Osteen's preaching is what initially brought me to God.  The problem is that I came to God for all of the wrong reasons.  Thankfully situations in my life at that time showed me I wasn't as 'righteous' as I once thought and that we are all sinners.

Instead of just saying it myself I want to quote Ray Comfort from "The Way of the Master" episode "Hell's Best Kept Secret."  He told a parable that really got my intention.

Lets say that life is a flight.  2 men are among many others on an airplane.  The first man is handed a parachute and told that it will improve his flight.  The second is handed a parachute and is told that the flight will eventually crash and it is the only thing that will save his life.  When the men put the parachutes on everyone begins to laugh at them as they are the only two wearing them.  The first man not only is deeply affected by the persecution, but he also notices that it is very uncomfortable when he sits back down.  He struggles for a while and finally he realizes that whoever gave him that parachute is a liar.  So he takes it off and throws it to the ground!  The second man is so greatful that the parachute will save his life he barely notices the persecution or the discomfort when he sits down.  In fact, one of the flight attendants spills coffee on his leg.  Instead of throwing the parachute to the ground, he clings to it tighter and looks FORWARD to the jump.

Basically, The Bible makes it clear that we will endure tests and persecution as Christians.  If we tell people "Jesus will give you everything you want and make you happy" then people will turn away from him as they endure tests and persecution.  However, if people realize the kind of sins they've committed against God and are told that Jesus Christ is their only means of salvation; they will cling to Him and look forward to their time with Him.

Friends, the Gospel message is simply this.  The Joy that Jesus Christ talks about comes in following Him.  Not because He will buy us a new car if we do.  The Joy that Jesus Christ talks about is the Joy of Salvation, not the Joy of having a nice big house.

Will God reward you, no doubt!  But what greater reward is there than the one that awaits us in Heaven?  What more can we ask for than the saving grace of Jesus Christ?

[nChrist]

Amen Kenny5682!

First, I see that you are new, and I want to WELCOME! you.

I give thanks that the Holy Spirit of GOD uses many things to soften the hearts of men and convince them to accept JESUS CHRIST as Lord and Saviour. I don't agree with the health and wealth doctrines at all, but I have also heard many preachers teaching these doctrines give the GOOD NEWS of the plain and simple Gospel - JESUS CHRIST and the Cross. ALMIGHTY GOD uses imperfect men for HIS purposes, so we are really back to giving thanks to GOD - not men.

I many times dwell on the facts and promises of GOD that HIS WORD will never return void. That wouldn't be because of men, but because of GOD.

Brother, the health and wealth that really means something is ETERNAL and NOT of this world. I love to think about our riches in CHRIST and the glorified bodies HE will give us one day. One of the things that bothers me about the health and wealth doctrine is that some of the strongest Christians I know don't have either of them in this short life. Some would say that these sweet Christians aren't right with GOD because they are poor or ill. In all reality, this world isn't our home, and GOD didn't promise us ease or comfort here in this short life. We must put things in perspective and know that this short life is nothing in comparison to eternity with JESUS CHRIST. I love to just imagine what that will be like, and I know that being poor or ill right now just isn't important. What is important in this short life is that GOD can use us in some way to help others find CHRIST. It's important that GOD gets all the GLORY for obvious reasons:  1) It is GOD who begins a good work in us;  2) It is GOD who finishes that work in us.

Brother, I simply give thanks that GOD used many ways to bring us to HIMSELF and rescue us from the curse of sin and death.

Brother, I sincerely hope that you enjoy Christians Unite. I look forward to reading your posts and having fellowship with you.

Love In Christ,
Tom

2 Timothy 4:7-8 NASB  I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

[Soldier4Christ]

I give another Amen Kenny!

The parable that you gave from Ray Comfort is what we see in the Bible of the seed planted by the wayside vs the seed planted in good soil. It is indeed a Biblical truth that God has given us. We must be planted in Him in truth and in spirit.

[Len]

Please forgive me if I repeate something that somebody has already said, but this subject has been on my heart for quite some time.

Joel Osteen's preaching is what initially brought me to God.  The problem is that I came to God for all of the wrong reasons.  Thankfully situations in my life at that time showed me I wasn't as 'righteous' as I once thought and that we are all sinners.

Instead of just saying it myself I want to quote Ray Comfort from "The Way of the Master" episode "Hell's Best Kept Secret."  He told a parable that really got my intention.

Lets say that life is a flight.  2 men are among many others on an airplane.  The first man is handed a parachute and told that it will improve his flight.  The second is handed a parachute and is told that the flight will eventually crash and it is the only thing that will save his life.  When the men put the parachutes on everyone begins to laugh at them as they are the only two wearing them.  The first man not only is deeply affected by the persecution, but he also notices that it is very uncomfortable when he sits back down.  He struggles for a while and finally he realizes that whoever gave him that parachute is a liar.  So he takes it off and throws it to the ground!  The second man is so greatful that the parachute will save his life he barely notices the persecution or the discomfort when he sits down.  In fact, one of the flight attendants spills coffee on his leg.  Instead of throwing the parachute to the ground, he clings to it tighter and looks FORWARD to the jump.

Basically, The Bible makes it clear that we will endure tests and persecution as Christians.  If we tell people "Jesus will give you everything you want and make you happy" then people will turn away from him as they endure tests and persecution.  However, if people realize the kind of sins they've committed against God and are told that Jesus Christ is their only means of salvation; they will cling to Him and look forward to their time with Him.

Friends, the Gospel message is simply this.  The Joy that Jesus Christ talks about comes in following Him.  Not because He will buy us a new car if we do.  The Joy that Jesus Christ talks about is the Joy of Salvation, not the Joy of having a nice big house.

Will God reward you, no doubt!  But what greater reward is there than the one that awaits us in Heaven?  What more can we ask for than the saving grace of Jesus Christ?

Many hear a good presentation of the Gospel in "seeker sensitive" churches.But most of the time, that's all they hear. Without discipleship, there is seldom growth.   Every new Christian should have the opportunity to know "what's next". And in that, they should understand that life is not a "bowl of cherries" for those who have received Christ. Quite to the contrary, we are told that we should expect persecution. We should have the attitude that Chinese Christians have...that of being thankful for persecution...because it brings about church growth, both in numbers and in spiritual development.

God does not expect us to accept Him and His Kingdom blindly. He has made is clear that there will good times and bad, happy times and sad, but we can also expect a joy that defies understanding and description when we place our unadulterated faith in Him.

Sounds like you have discovered that, Kenny. Press on in Him, Brother. Glory awaits.

[nChrist]

Another AMEN Brother Len!

This thread turned out to be a really nice discussion.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Galatians 2:19-21 NASB  "For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

[Brother Jerry]

LOL

And Amen Kenny and Len.

But let me state this...the Gospel of Christ is a prosperity gospel!

If you follow the gospel of Christ here on earth you will prosper later in heaven

[nChrist]

LOL

And Amen Kenny and Len.

But let me state this...the Gospel of Christ is a prosperity gospel!

If you follow the gospel of Christ here on earth you will prosper later in heaven

Amen Brother Jerry!

In all reality, a Christian's riches in CHRIST are beyond human imagination. Looking at it this way, Christians are the richest people on earth, and that would include Christians who are hungry and without proper clothing and shelter.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:1-2 NASB  Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

[Whitestone]

This thread turned out to be a really nice discussion. ~ BEP.

Let me un-nice it a little here 

Joel Osteen has trod the Gospel of Christ under foot. Being conformed to the image of Christ is the "mark of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" that Paul speaks of....(and Joel never does). Equating the size and success of Osteen's "ministry" with God's blessing is prepostrous....Tony Robbins has the same "blessing" for the same reasons. A token smattering of Christian teaching lost in an avalanche of self-help, ear soothing garbage is a horrifying travesty....especially as it becomes the vangard message of "popular" Christianity.

I often think of Paul's prosperity and retirement plan...prison and decapitation.


Rev 2:2
2. I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: (KJV)

WS

[Soldier4Christ]

I often think of Paul's prosperity and retirement plan...prison and decapitation.

That was just the path he took on his way to his rich retirement.

Mat 6:19  Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
Mat 6:20  But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Mat 6:21  For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

[Len]

Let me un-nice it a little here 

Joel Osteen has trod the Gospel of Christ under foot. Being conformed to the image of Christ is the "mark of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" that Paul speaks of....(and Joel never does). Equating the size and success of Osteen's "ministry" with God's blessing is prepostrous....Tony Robbins has the same "blessing" for the same reasons. A token smattering of Christian teaching lost in an avalanche of self-help, ear soothing garbage is a horrifying travesty....especially as it becomes the vangard message of "popular" Christianity.

I often think of Paul's prosperity and retirement plan...prison and decapitation.


Rev 2:2
2. I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: (KJV)

WS

"Un-nice" it, huh? LOL. But what you have posted is accurate. There is NOTHING "nice" about what happened to Jesus in the final 24 hours of His ministry on earth. It was a most horrific series of events. I think I am within the mark when I say that I think God wants us present truth, warts and all, "nice" and "un-nice".

The "un-nice" about which you speak is a result of mankind's fall from grace. The "nice" is the result of God's response to our failure.

The first step to salvation is an acknowledgement of the huge gap that stands between a holy God ("nice") and sinful man ("un-nice"). The next step is top receive the free gift of salvation ("nice") and pardon ("nice") for our sin ("un-nice).

The next thing that SHOULD happen is an opportunity to grow spiritually (discipleship...that is disciplining....training). Most times it is difficult. Even Paul talked about it. He said he did the things he did not want to do and didn't do the things he wanted to do in his struggle to please God. Personally, I have never found being an obedient servant of God to be easy. But it has always been full of joy...even fun.

We have to see both sides to have the whole truth.

[nChrist]

Hello Whitestone,

I've only heard Joel Osteen preach a couple of times on television, so I'm not any authority on what he preaches. I would simply say that what I heard was definitely health and wealth.

We do live in a time where many do have "itching ears" and are unable to endure sound doctrine. People want to be entertained, and they certainly don't want to be offended by the Sharp Sword of GOD'S WORD. ALL who properly handle GOD'S WORD get cut by that SWORD, and this is a good thing. However, there is also an AWESOME FEEL GOOD portion of GOD'S WORD for those who are saved and realize the RICHES OF CHRIST. Understanding Salvation and knowing that you have it is a JOY like nothing this world has to offer. In fact, there are many AWESOME FEEL GOOD things that Christians can experience even in this short life. PEACE WITH GOD is another example and a beginning knowledge of the depth of GOD'S Love for us. Many people suffer from thoughts that they are unwanted, unloved, and don't belong. I'm thinking right now about one of the primary reasons why kids join gangs. They think that they will find acceptance and belonging in a gang.

The ultimate acceptance and belonging is found ONLY in JESUS CHRIST for people who ask HIM to be the LORD over their lives. The point I would like to make is there are MANY REAL AND WONDERFUL "FEEL GOOD" things for a Christian, and the TRUTH is much more impressive than the things of this world. SO, a Christian can practice an ULTIMATE form of "POSITIVE THINKING" in JESUS CHRIST and continually give thanks to GOD.

Thanks be unto GOD for HIS unspeakable GIFT!, JESUS CHRIST, our Lord and Saviour forever!

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 John 3:1-2  See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

[Len]

You will NEVER hear a "prosperity preacher" giving his message in Ethiopia, or in Guatemala, or in Ukraine, or in any other impoverished country. Why? Because there is no one there with money with which to line the preacher's pockets.

[Whitestone]

AMENS all around bros.

It seems the days have come when they will not endure sound doctrine.

However, there is also an AWESOME FEEL GOOD portion of GOD'S WORD for those who are saved and realize the RICHES OF CHRIST.

1 John 3:1-2  See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. ~ Tom

How great a Love indeed!! and by His marvelous Grace...when we do realise what you have shared here Tom...such low views of prosperity seem silly and trite...God help the masses of people who have been suckered by the fables of such "ministries"

WS