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Why?
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« Reply #90 on: July 27, 2004, 06:32:39 PM »

I want a T-shirt that says "Stop the hate."

I doubt I'll find one though. Like everyone else, I'll have to make my own because most of the Christians I meet are intent on spreading the hate.  Sad
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« Reply #91 on: July 28, 2004, 12:28:18 AM »

Why, I am truly sorry if you have been offended by "Christians" in any way.  I know it can be terribly confusing to see something un-Christian come from "supposed" Christians.  I offer my deepest sympathies for the pain you have been caused.

I only ask that you remember that Christians have struggles, too.  They fight spiritual battles that pull them many different directions at the same time.  Many times, that is when the forces of darkness step in and sway them using the power of their own emotions, leading to something they never intended to do in the first place.

But Jesus isn't like that.  He accepts you just the way you are.  You don't have to change a thing.  Homosexuality?  Abortion?  Drugs?  Doesn't matter.  He accepts you.  And if you are willing, he will show you the right path from the inside, not the outside.  I know, too many Christians want to change your outside first.  (Stop smoking! Stop drinking! Etc!)  They just know the road they have already travelled, and want to help you avoid the pitfalls.  Their intentions are good, really.  But the answer for man lies in his inner heart and soul, not in correcting his outside addictions.  Allow God to fix the inside first, and the outside will follow.

If you keep your eyes on Him, not on other Christians, and never stop seeking the truth, He will help you understand your own changes when you are ready to make them.  For some, He seems to change them instantly, immediately.  But for most, He works on them gradually, helping them grow over time, making the changes more lasting, more in keeping with what they can handle.  Be patient and work to rid yourself of doubt and confusion, which are not from God.  His light is constant and never changes, like a beacon in the night.  He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, and He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

You know, Christians by themselves are simply not capable of real love.  But when they step out of God's way (by removing their personal agenda), and allow Him to work, that's when miracles happen and lives are changed.

There would be no abortion if people's hearts were changed and their ability to care for an unborn life were to grow.  There would be no homosexuality if people's hearts were changed and men and women were accepted and helped to understand who God made them to be, especially by their parents.  (Any dads listening out there? Unless you want homosexual sons, you'd better learn to nurture their gentle side and show them how God really intends for that quality to be used.  Otherwise, they'll misinterpret it and learn to hate you for not accepting them.)

Too many Christians attack issues with picket signs and petitions, as if that will somehow solve the real problem.  I have no doubt that that is the source of the hate you have seen.  But, I implore you to recognize it for what it is and isn't.  It is hatred, but from Christians it is not hatred for a person; rather, it is hatred of an action that grieves them to the very core.

The bottom line is, God despises your sin.  But He loves you.  And with His help, so do I.
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« Reply #92 on: July 28, 2004, 02:16:16 AM »

Oklahoma Howdy to Why? and Daily Walker,

There is nothing wrong or hateful about telling the truth and calling sin, sin. Quoting a Bible verse or holding a sign that says "Homosexuality" is a sin is quite proper. In fact, it is kind to inform someone they are wallowing in sin and death. The knowledge of sin and death is a way of showing someone a path to Christ. Silence and tolerance is greatly responsible for the rampant evil we see today. Silence and tolerance will simply encourage it to grow and more people drug down into the darkness of pain, despair, sin, and death. Silence and tolerance simply lets the devil's voice be the only one that is heard.

Recognizing that you are a sinner and knowing that you need to be rescued is the first step to Christ. It is not kind or Biblical to put your stamp of approval on evil by your silence. That is just one of the reasons why the defense or promotion of alternative lifestyles IS NOT permitted on Christians Unite.

Daily Walking, I'm not sure what you are suggesting when you appealed to Christian dads about the training of their children. If you are suggesting anything other than the teaching of Biblical morals and values, you would be wrong. One of the biggest problems of this society is the lack or absence of the teaching of Biblical morals and values.

Regardless, if you wish to tell Christians to be silent about evil and sin, you are in the wrong crowd of Christians. More is part of the answer, NOT less. America started falling apart when they took prayer out of public schools. This was only one factor, but it only took 50 years for America to turn its back on God and become a nation where evil rules. I was there 50 years ago, and I know that silence and tolerance by Christians is one of the primary factors for the rampant evil we see today.

If someone is offended by the quoting of a Bible Verse or a plain TRUTH statement of sin, I say GOOD!! Maybe that feeling will lead to recognition, conviction, and seeking a Lord and Saviour for rescue and Salvation. No Christian should ever be ashamed of the WORD OF GOD.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #93 on: July 28, 2004, 09:25:22 PM »

You missed my point by a long shot, blackeyedpeas.  I never told Christians to stop hating sin, nor did I tell them to stop calling sin, "sin."  Read the bottom line: "God despises your sin."  So do I, and it is scripturally based to do so.  But you advocate spouting your hatred of sin at the expense of the sinner's heart.  Shame on you.  Hate the sin, but not the sinner.

Name one person that Jesus saved by brow-beating them about their sin.  You can't.  Jesus first found the sinner, then filled their needs and loved them, then forgave them of their sin, then changed them from the inside out.

To be "Christian" means to be "Christ-like".  That means we too, should first find the sinner (Matthew 28:19), fill their needs and love them (Matthew 22:39), forgive them (James 5:16), and watch God change them from the inside.

bep, you simply don't have the power to save anyone, especially if you drive them away with brow-beatings.  To dictate the law to a non-Christian is sheer foolishness.  They don't even have a foundation to build on yet, much less the one true foundation.   Lay the foundation first, I tell you.  It is the Christians who need to be told what is/is not sin, because to the non-Christian it is sheer folly.  How can they possibly be expected follow the scriptures, when they haven't even asked "the Word" into their hearts?

I Cor. 13, my friend.  You can spout the evils of sin all you want to, but if you "have not love", you are worthless, and maybe I *am* in the wrong group of Christians.  I will be glad to leave, and shake the dust off my sandals when I go.  Perhaps my only purpose here was to let "Why?" know that she is loved.  She didn't seem to be hearing anything but hate from anyone else here, and no wonder.  You're all consumed with your precious T-Shirts.

As for the homosexual advice to dads, you've obviously never read James Dobson.  It's essentially straight from his book.  I have a son, and I encourage him not to suppress his gentle side, but to see it's true purpose, which is not homosexuality, but compassion for others.  I am following scripture to the letter, despite what you may think.

I've read enough posts to know that you know scripture, and that you have impressed quite a few people with that knowledge.  I know this from the "oohs" and "aahs" that invariably follow.  But the devil knows the scriptures too, even better than you do.  Knowledge of the scriptures is meaningless without application. Brow-beating non-Christians is NOT the intended application. The intended application is a closer relationship with God Himself, nothing more, nothing less.

So, in that light, let me apply this to those out there that would count oppression of sinners as acceptable in touting the hatred of sin:
    Luke 6:41-42 - "Why do you see the speck in your neighbor's eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye?  Or how can you say to your neighbor, 'Friend, let me take out the speck in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor's eye."
    John 8:7-11 - When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."  Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.  At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"  "No one, sir," she said.  "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared.  "Go now, and leave your life of sin."

Like it or not, Jesus loves doctors who murder unborn children every bit as much as He loves you.  He loves Saddam Hussein as much as He loves anyone.  It is the sin He hates and cannot tolerate.  But they are no more guilty of it than you are.

So, do you still think I am telling you to stop the abortion picketing now? No, if that message comes to you, then it comes from somewhere other than me.  I won't tell you what to do.  I will say this, however: think of all the time spent picketing that could have been spent loving someone to Jesus.  How many eternal souls have been lost so that we can try to save the physical bodies of unborn children whose souls are in His care anyway? (Forgive us for that, Father. We have been truly blind.)

You can't chop a tree down by hacking at the leaves.  You have to go to the root, which is at the heart of man, not his sinful fruits.
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« Reply #94 on: July 29, 2004, 12:11:34 AM »

Hello Daily Walker,

If you equate a sign, a shirt, or a bible verse as hate, that would go right along with the times. There are places talking about portions of the Holy Bible being hate speech. And, you guessed it, the ACLU is about to propose legislation. And schools - WHEW!! - hold onto your hat. The time is already here where God's pulpit has been removed and replaced by one of the devil. It isn't even an equal time situation.

My first sentence is the subject of this thread. So if you feel this is hate, we can agree to disagree, but that won't effect my holding a sign, wearing a shirt, or quoting a Bible verse. They are already shoving the alternative lifestyles into the face of our elementary school children. I'll sit down and be quiet when I go home to be with my Lord and Saviour. Until then, I'll just increase the size of my sign. Most of that garbage hasn't hit my state yet, but I will need loud speakers if it does. Let me describe it this way, grandma and I are in complete agreement with our children. Our grandchildren will never be taught evil in school. If my wife and I are old stuffed shirts, so are our children. I'll simply get a second mortagage an send all of them to Christian schools.

See, your post has almost caused me to reverse my stance on this issue.   Cheesy  I say that in a good-natured way. I would expect you to witness and take whatever actions you feel convicted by the Holy Spirit to do, and I will do the same.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #95 on: July 29, 2004, 08:27:03 PM »

If it stopped with the sign, shirt or a bible verse, it would not be hate.  Those things by themselves cannot be hate because they have no heart.  But ask yourself honestly, what is it really that people like "Why" construe as hate?

I've been around the picket lines.  There is more than signage going on many times.  There is abusive yelling at the doctors and their patients.  With homosexuality, gay-bashing has been rampant among the Christian community in many areas.  It's sad, but it makes the news, and non-Christians are informed of the direct link Christians have to the whole thing, even though those who truly love Christ would never do such things.

Bible verses are fine as far as Christians are concerned, but until someone sees the love and invites Jesus in, most of them are "bossy" and perceived as me trying to tell everyone else the right way to live.  In their eyes, who am I to tell them such things?  That's perceived as arrogance.  The only thing that is never misunderstood is love, pure and unconditional love that only God can give.  The devil cannot duplicate it, no matter how hard he tries.  That's why they will know it is different.

When love is abundant, people become open to the power of the Holy Spirit.  They are more receptive to being drawn by the Father, and are much closer to making a decision.  Once they do, and "The Word" lives in their hearts, the scriptures become truly useful in teaching them exactly who lives there, helping them to change their outside actions.

I'm glad you see the purpose in my posts.  Perhaps I won't leave after all.  I'll just hang around for a while and watch for those who aren't comfortable with Christianity and speak to their needs.  They are, after all, the target of the Great Commission, right?

Love in Christ back at ya, Wink
Craig
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« Reply #96 on: July 31, 2004, 07:36:49 AM »

Character is always lost when a high ideal is sacrificed on the altar of conformity and popularity. ~Charles Spurgeon
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« Reply #97 on: August 06, 2004, 12:31:03 PM »

A good christian shouldn't go around kicking people for their weaknesses. Instead of spending time putting messages like that on a shirt maybe you should invest that time helping the weak and show them God.
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« Reply #98 on: August 07, 2004, 08:05:24 PM »

A good christian shouldn't go around kicking people for their weaknesses. Instead of spending time putting messages like that on a shirt maybe you should invest that time helping the weak and show them God.


AMEN!!! Allie!!  Grin


Blessings,  \o/
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« Reply #99 on: August 08, 2004, 06:28:29 AM »

A good christian shouldn't go around kicking people for their weaknesses. Instead of spending time putting messages like that on a shirt maybe you should invest that time helping the weak and show them God.

How is a tee shirt kicking anyone?  Huh Can't you show 'them' God through his Word?  Huh

Just a thought:
Ezekiel 3
18 If I say to the wicked, "You are going to die,' and you don't sound the alarm warning them that it's a matter of life or death, they will die and it will be your fault. I'll hold you responsible. 19 But if you warn the wicked and they keep right on sinning anyway, they'll most certainly die for their sin, but you won't die. You'll have saved your life.
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« Reply #100 on: August 08, 2004, 03:48:43 PM »

May I direct you to the following audio/video examples:

http://www.livingwaters.com/listenwatch.shtml
http://www.livingwaters.com/watch.shtml

And the following Scripture.

Isaiah 58
1   Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

Ez 3:18   When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
19   Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

Eph 5:11
11   And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12   For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
13   But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

1 Timothy 5

20   Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

Titus 2 11  
 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12   Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

15   These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

ITh 5:14
Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.


Ec 7
5   It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise, than for a man to hear the song of fools.



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« Reply #101 on: August 08, 2004, 04:08:14 PM »

Matthew 14: 3   For Herod had laid hold on John, and bound him, and put him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife.
4   For John said unto him, It is not lawful for thee to have her.

Mt 5
19   Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20   For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

27   Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28   But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29   And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

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« Reply #102 on: August 08, 2004, 06:27:51 PM »

And~

Psalm 12:
1 Help, LORD , for the godly are no more;
the faithful have vanished from among men.
2 Everyone lies to his neighbor;
their flattering lips speak with deception.


8 The wicked freely strut about
when what is vile is honored among men.


Wow.
Anyone else thinking of Gay Pride and Abortion Pride? Undecided
'When what is VILE is HONORED among men'?

But we don't want to be mean or labeled as a bigot or intolerant so with 'flattering lips we speak with deception'?
 Lips Sealed

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« Reply #103 on: August 08, 2004, 11:30:38 PM »

AMEN OneStarFisher and SincereHeart,

We already know that the devil has been busy and is holding many people hostage, in bondage to sin and death. The sin always involves great pain and suffering during this short walk on earth, but it also involves pain and suffering for eternity.

In short, it is cruel for a Christian to remain silent. One of the first steps to the LIGHT is realizing one is living in sin and is in desperate need of a Lord and Saviour. If a Bible Verse or a sign makes someone angry who is wallowing in sin, darkness, and death -  GOOD!!!  Maybe it will lead to conviction of sin and one step toward Christ.

It isn't pleasant for a Christian to speak up many times. There is nothing in the Holy Bible that says speaking the TRUTH and spreading the GOOD NEWS is pleasant. In fact, the Holy Bible states the opposite. Would anyone expect it to be pleasant to share a portion of Scripture with the devil? The devil doesn't want to hear it and will do everything possible to shut out HIS WORD, including the convincing of Christians to be silent. Christians are NOT given equal time to combat the devil, nor can they buy equal time to combat the devil.

I would love to see an America where the devil couldn't go around any corner without seeing and hearing THE WORD. However, many Christians oppose this - WHY?Huh I would ask if there is a shred of evidence that suggests silence helps those who are wallowing in sin and death. We all know that the complete OPPOSITE is true. The devil is running rampant, seeking hosts to devour, and facing almost NO opposition. The last 50 years in America is a perfect example of what the devil can do when there is NO or inadequate opposition. The devil will be most certainly heard, but most Christians will remain silent and let the devil take what he wants, including their own children and loved ones.

UM?Huh - Are there many families left that aren't being tortured by the devil in one way or another?? (i.e. alcohol, dope, pornography, alternative lifestyles, abortion, moral bankruptcy, Biblical bankruptcy, etc., etc., etc.). I think it is quite Biblical for a Christian to stand in the way of the devil, speak up, fight, and keep fighting. It's not easy, but we are called to do JUST THAT!!

I do wish to serve God in any way he calls me. I don't expect to be popular in HIS service, nor do I expect it to be easy. However, it wasn't easy for Jesus to die on the CROSS for me. Being popular with everyone, including the devil, is a clear sign that I'm not doing anything in HIS service. If those wallowing in darkness and the devil like you, you need to figure out who you are working for.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #104 on: August 09, 2004, 12:47:37 AM »

Good words, blackeyed peas and sincere heart.

There is a fine line. I can see what people mean when they say it's "hate" or self-righteousness to proclaim the truth.

We can't expect the world to change, because the world is the world. Dead in sin. That's what's wrong with all this trying to legislate morality - it won't happen. We are to call sinners OUT of a sinful world into a relationship with Christ.

If the whole world is going along with their agenda, and Christians are remaining silent, how will they ever know? Their conscience bears witness. But we need to bear witness also.

There are a lot of pushes to legitimatize the homosexual movement. They will succeed, simply because we know the world will get darker and darker until Jesus comes back. But there are a lot of young people watching. And people who are borderline homosexuals. They are in some cases trying to convince themselves. For people to stand up and say,no, this is wrong, makes some of them think. It makes young people question more, what they are being told. There are a lot of people who are "going along" with the whole homosexual agenda because they think it's the politically correct thing to do - until they realize that not everyone feels that way. Then they are more encouraged to speak up themselves about how they really feel.

When we were holding our signs on the street, the majority response was favorable and most definitely against homosexuality. This is the pulse on the street.

So, whether you wear a button, or print it on a visor, or put it on a shirt - it's a statement that needs to be stated. And while we're at it, abortion is murder and fornication is also a sin - these need to be confronted as well. So does lying and adultery. But the one they're really shoving at us is the hs thing. Their ultimate goal is to silence any speech that states the truth and back it up with legal ramifications. That is the lengths they will go to protect their self delusion and rebellion.

Is it wrong to speak the truth in the face of that? Certainly not.

A sure sign you're making inroads into the enemy's (satan's) territory is when you have people upset at the fact you are saying something definitive, asking why, and accusing you of being unloving or something.

But, I would also caution a person to examine their own motives.

Secondly, it's not about being "self- righteous", hating anyone, being holier than thou, heaping condemnationm (although they are ALREADY condemned), etc. There is a lot of that, you have to admit. We are all wretched, naked, miserable and blind without Christ. We were once hovering over the abyss as well. Our word should be a word of warning.

I am continually amused at Christians who talk about "love" and their Christianity. They want to hug and schmooze and tell people Jesus loves them. Yes, He does. But people who are in willful rebellion could give a rip. They don't see their precarious position. Or, they think they can be a Christian and refuse to let go of their sin at the same time. That is still rebellion, and you can't have it both ways. It is still I who am lord of my own life at that point. If you make Christ Lord of your life, you have to be willing to let go of everything.
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