Shirts

[Symphony]

None of the other people there were protestors?  I watched the video clip, but it was hard to tell.

That's terrible.  It was announced the night before, so you knew about it, and that means countless others would have known about it, but you were the only one who showed up to protest.  

And ministers preparing to marry them.   Hmm.  I wonder what they're saying--in the shadows.

Thank you for doing that, onestar, and letting us know!  Nice job.

Perfect t-shirt.

[Symphony]

When they all got off the bus and sang, "Jesus Loves Me", onestar, what did they mean by that?

In defiance, of you,?  Or to mock you, I guess?

[onestarfisher]

Hi, I think they got off the bus to try to drown me out, because I was the only one saying anything. It kinda backfired, tho, because the reporters just waited until the people got back on the bus to come and ask questions.

No, no other protestors were there.

[onestarfisher]

Oh my gosh! I just checked World Net Daily, and the AP article made it there! They get over a million hits a day or something like that - and the article has the wording of the t shirt, HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN. Hallelujah! Praise the Lord! He has done this - it's incredible. People need to hear that it IS A SIN......

[onestarfisher]

see this link http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0515marriagebus15.html

It has a picture of someone wearing a pro-gay t shirt.

[Symphony]

Yes, I see that picture now.  But I can't tell all of what the shirt says, tho it seems obvious it's pro gay.

I suppose we'll see more of them, tho it hardly seems necessary.  'Looks like pretty much everybody is supporting them, even the Christians.

From the AZ Republic:

 "There were no anti-gay protesters at any of the court facilities, although one woman came to the East Mesa Justice Court, Bible in hand, to pray for the marriage applicants, for better or for worse."

I suppose that was you, huh, onestar.  Thank you for doing that.  

But the only one.  

In a nation where we have freedom of expression, and the Christian community is silent.  

Perhaps we deserve to be styled as a "ghetto"(a reference recently in U.S. News magazine, mentioned separately in my post under "Krystallnacht", under Prophecy).

But one of the pictures in the Massachusetts article, at WND, the two gay men there do look formidable--every bit the picture of the portrayal in John Huston's epic film, "The Bible", when the angels go in to examine Sodom.  They look just like the portrayal there.

This isn't going to be easy.

They are going to be very, very mean.

I've got to get cookin', and ready to die.

[onestarfisher]

I'll need to go look at the sources you mentioned.....

Why do you say ready to die? Do you worry you will lose your job or something? You can always go to another town to protest. Somewhere where no one knows you. Or, you could do the shirt you were thinking, where it was all one word, which gives you a little get away time. Or, even just the letters, HIAS and let them figure it out. Or, there's call in radio where you can be anonymous. If the Lord leads, He will protect. I was thinking about that too... like what if where I applied for a job sees it and decides to forget it....I guess I'll find out in a couple of days if I'm still going to be hired.

[Symphony]

I think we're witnessing only the sweet furry upper side mostly so far.  Once in significant power, the deadly underbelly will begin to show itself.  The Genesis account says everyone, "down to the last man".

It may take awhile, but it's happening.  Yesterday Massachusetts actually issuing gay marriage licenses; on the news, said U.S. now one of four nations.

Some other states' governors are saying they will honor Massachusetts' licenses--I believe NY is.  Chicago's gays are sabre rattling.

I'm not seeing myself as a town-to-town refugee or fugitive.  Most likely will stand my ground, where I am, since I'm self-employed.  But as I become more vocal, or if I do, I imagine my customer base will begin to dry up.  So it will mean the tax man coming to confiscate the property and then, I suppose, the sheriff.  

A neighboring town newspaper just printed one of my letters to the editor.  They no longer will here--unless, I guess, it was supportive, lauding or ecumenical.  I've been amazed at how submissive and fearful my own community apparently is, of saying anything--or if they want to say anything anyway.  Most of my friends or peers are afraid of me now, apparently afraid they'll be iimplicated and lose their jobs, since most of them are employees and have careers to think about.  

But, because of our country's structure and constitution, we may be able to continue a significant public statement, at least for some time yet.  That's what I'm planning on, anyway, and working on.

I'm planning on a situation where there's an ongoing tension--sort of like Nehemiah rebuilding the wall but at the same time fighting off the attackers.

[onestarfisher]

The Genesis account says everyone, "down to the last man".

Could you explain what this means? I'm unclear.

Yesterday i got someone to go with me down to the courthouse in the city (downtown) because the gays were planning a "march" to the clerk's office to demand that their "marriage" certificates from a few days ago be recognized. The march was led by 4 "pastors" of a gay church.

the t shirt I'd been making didn't turn out so I put the message on a sign - we had 2 signs, actually, different on each side. The big design was a graphic like you see outside restrooms, the generic man and the generic woman, but I had them holding hands, and underneath, "God's Way". We also had a sign that said "Jesus Wept" and one that said Same Sex with a circle and red line thru it. We stood at the entrance to the courthouse. Several passersby agreed - most, in fact. Only a few detractors.

The tv people put the signs on the air on a couple of channels, praise God. One station aired a one sentence comment I made, but only one time. Which is better than nothing. (I can't find the links.)

By and large, most of the media coverage, when I watched several stations later, avoided showing our signs, or making any mention of there being any opposition at all. I guess that they mentioned it at all, anywhere, is a good thing, tho.

They had a big pro-marriage rally here the day before yesterday. About 3000 Christians gathered at the state capitol. A lot of them had signs, and there was a lot of media coverage.

What bothers me about that is this: it's great to work for laws to protect marriage and whatever else is wrong out there. But it seems like all the Christians are relying on that. Yesterday, my friend and I were the ONLY 2 protestors there, period. Where is everybody?? this is a big metropolitan city with several million residents! (we were downtown, not out where I live) I read later that a couple of people from the Center for Arizona Policy (the ones who sponsored the pro-marriage rally on Monday) were around yesterday (while we were holding signs in front of the courthouse) but I find it odd that neither of them came by to say hello or offer encouragement or anything. It's like they want to distance themselves from anyone taking a public stand in opposition. From reading their web site, it looks like they hope to accomplish everything thru legislation. Nothing "radical" you know. The problem with legislation is some judge comes along and just overturns it all anyway. So it isn't enough. I thought they (the people from CFAP) were Christians. What gives?? We weren't shouting or anything - just holding signs.

I don't think standing against all this will ultimately prevent it from all going ahead at some point - so why bother. But somehow it just seems wrong to cave in and do nothing. Feels like spittin' into a hurricane, actually. Do I even want to?

The discouraging part is, I have discovered that most Christian really don't want to do anything at all about anything and probably won't. I think in the end, they will hang you out to dry - and one will be "out there" all by themselves. That's a really desolate feeling. Surely there are people somewhere who believe is speaking out. If not about homosexuality, then about all the other ills that are evil. Aren't we supposed to speak out against evil? (and provide the solution, Jesus). When did the gospel change??

[onestarfisher]

It may take awhile, but it's happening.  Yesterday Massachusetts actually issuing gay marriage licenses; on the news, said U.S. now one of four nations.

Chicago's gays are sabre rattling.

But as I become more vocal, or if I do, I imagine my customer base will begin to dry up.  

A neighboring town newspaper just printed one of my letters to the editor.  They no longer will here--unless, I guess, it was supportive, lauding or ecumenical.  I've been amazed at how submissive and fearful my own community apparently is, of saying anything--or if they want to say anything anyway.  Most of my friends or peers are afraid of me now, apparently afraid they'll be iimplicated and lose their jobs, since most of them are employees and have careers to think about.  

I'm planning on a situation where there's an ongoing tension--sort of like Nehemiah rebuilding the wall but at the same time fighting off the attackers.

When you said the Chicago gays were "sabre rattling", that sounds just like here. Do you have any links for Chicago? Here, they were acting all demanding and whipping up the crowd, and "demanding" things. Hah! Oh, and they marched singing, We Shall Overcome, like they were some poor blighted group. It was almost funny. (I'm sure just to us)

As far as your customer base drying up, I think the Lord will protect you if you are in His will. Somehow. I know how you feel.

When you said you were amazed at how fearful and submissive your town is, and then how your friends or peers are afraid of you know, what's going on?? What are you saying? My friends have been polite to listen, but no one wants to get involved. (except the one friends elderly mother from yesterday) I sometimes see a news flash from another town and they'll quickly show someone holding a banner saying Homeosexuality Is A Sin, so there are people somewhere. I think the Lord has dropped that message into people's spirits. But where are these people? Are they alone too? What church do they go to ?? What's their story??

What do you mean about the Nehemiah thing??

Congrats on the letter to the editor. What was it about?

[onestarfisher]

From the AZ Republic:

 "There were no anti-gay protesters at any of the court facilities, although one woman came to the East Mesa Justice Court, Bible in hand, to pray for the marriage applicants, for better or for worse."


Perhaps we deserve to be styled as a "ghetto"(a reference recently in U.S. News magazine, mentioned separately in my post under "Krystallnacht", under Prophecy).

But one of the pictures in the Massachusetts article, at WND, the two gay men there do look formidable--every bit the picture of the portrayal in John Huston's epic film, "The Bible", when the angels go in to examine Sodom.  They look just like the portrayal there.

.

  By the way, I wasn't "praying for the marriage applicants", I was preaching against sin. They twist everything.

Lastly, I'll have to go over to the Krystallnacht thread and read up....also, where is that film by John Huston? I never heard of it.

[Symphony]

The Genesis account says everyone, "down to the last man".   Could you explain what this means? I'm unclear.

The account of Sodom, and Lot:  "...the men of the city...compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter..."  (19:4--KJV; my RSV says "...down to the last man").

It's based to my mind on the principle that whatever we become complicit in, is what we become.  In contrast to NT verses, like "...be instant in season and out of season..", or "rebuke with all authority", or Jesus's instant response to
Peter, "Get thee behind me Satan; for you are not on the side of God, but of Satan".  There, Jesus is calling Peter literally "Satan".

Barring other factors(which is unlikely), given enough time our society will become homosexual through and through, with a whole orphan class at the same time produced by the bisexuals.

Lot and family must have been the exception, but from the context it would appear that it was only a matter of time, for even Lot was willing to toss them his two daughters.

 

[Symphony]

By and large, most of the media coverage, when I watched several stations later, avoided showing our signs, or making any mention of there being any opposition at all.

Yes, I'm guessing most in the media are at least sympathetic to the gay cause--a very key issue in all of this.  They are in my own small town now--and just within the last two years or so.  But it is the "media" whereby we gather, sift and analyze information--the very printing press itself--the catalyst for the whole Protestant Reformation, not barely a century later after the press's invention, and a major underpinning, originally, of a free state like our U.S.--our U.S. was built on a "free press"--Benjamin Franklin's "Silence Dogood", etc.  It should come as no small "clue", that that one major influence by which human beings can and do make their individual decisions is among the first to be "converted" and "taken over".

What bothers me about that is this: it's great to work for laws to protect marriage and whatever else is wrong out there. But it seems like all the Christians are relying on that. Yesterday, my friend and I were the ONLY 2 protestors there, period. Where is everybody?? this is a big metropolitan city with several million residents! (we were downtown, not out where I live) I read later that a couple of people from the Center for Arizona Policy (the ones who sponsored the pro-marriage rally on Monday) were around yesterday (while we were holding signs in front of the courthouse) but I find it odd that neither of them came by to say hello or offer encouragement or anything. It's like they want to distance themselves from anyone taking a public stand in opposition. From reading their web site, it looks like they hope to accomplish everything thru legislation. Nothing "radical" you know. The problem with legislation is some judge comes along and just overturns it all anyway. So it isn't enough. I thought they (the people from CFAP) were Christians. What gives?? We weren't shouting or anything - just holding signs.

Yes, the fair-weather brethren, I suppose.  This is what makes yours so much the more authentic--and speaks volumes, unfortunately.  The legislation is already on the other side--you know this b/c they're voting on an issue like the "marriage amendment".  If we have to legislate what something as fundamental as "marriage" is, then that fact alone is the signal to get outta Dodge.  What's next, that we have to *legislate* that two plus two equals four?  Can't you just "see" that two plus two equals four?  Do we need a law declaring it?

[Symphony]

Feels like spittin' into a hurricane, actually. Do I even want to?

You're exhibiting all the same trial of temptation as from Moses' reluctance, to Jonah's fleeing to Tarshish(instead of witnessing to Ninevah), to Peter's denial of Jesus three times.

The temptation to hide or run is overpowering.  "...all the sheep will scatter..."

But you wanted to witness for Jesus Christ, and you did, and it really paid off, with the media coverage that you did get.  ANd you were the only one.

Suppose you hadn't gone?

most Christian really don't want to do anything at all about anything and probably won't.

This is the separating out that is going on here in the U.S. now even as we speak, the lines being drawn in the sand.  It is difficult to realize many of even those closest to us will choose to cling instead to the creature comforts.

Possibly I'm guilty of this, as in this shirts thread, by merely planning to incorporate "anti-gay" apparel--shirts, etc., into a business plan, rather than do it as you are.  I'm presently learning daily what the stakes may be, as I continue to interact with a wide variety of people.  Still, some are searching, and every approach--perhaps even the indirect approach--may have its place.  

I think in the end, they will hang you out to dry - and one will be "out there" all by themselves. That's a really desolate feeling. Surely there are people somewhere who believe is speaking out. If not about homosexuality, then about all the other ills that are evil. Aren't we supposed to speak out against evil? (and provide the solution, Jesus). When did the gospel change??

Yes, it is the "church" to watch out for, surprisingly.  Yes, it is a desolate feeling.  Most of the ministers I am aware of, while they may preach from the pulpit, seem loathe to make any public statement.  You rarely, if ever, see a letter to the editor, or even a paid statement, from a minister, in our newspaper, tho they have nearly a full page of their weekly church ads.  I remember reading that Adolf Hitler created the Gestapo in part to deal with the "church problem"--that is, churches were vocalizing their opposition, which of course soon ceased, mostly.  Those who didn't cease, disappeared.
Corrie Ten Boom's "Hiding Place" depicts vividly the pliable and complicit minister, in the movie.  Yes, it is all very scary.  I'm every bit the coward that minister was there.

[Symphony]

When you said the Chicago gays were "sabre rattling", that sounds just like here. Do you have any links for Chicago?

Nope.  My source for this was ordinary late night radio--WBBM 780 out of Chicgo, which is a CBS affiliate.

As far as your customer base drying up, I think the Lord will protect you if you are in His will. Somehow. I know how you feel.

Yep, I think the more hopeless things look, the closer we are to the truth.  I'm constantly having to relearn that one.  But some good reminders on where not to place my faith.  

(except the one friends elderly mother from yesterday) I sometimes see a news flash from another town and they'll quickly show someone holding a banner saying Homeosexuality Is A Sin, so there are people somewhere. I think the Lord has dropped that message into people's spirits. But where are these people? Are they alone too? What church do they go to ?? What's their story??

Yes, Psalm 119 here directed me to one website, where a whole family is doing this, in VA I think, and they depend on donations.  I'll get their website back if I can find it.

Nehemiah was rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem after the Babylonian captivity, and given authority by the then ruling Persian king, to do so.  But local hostile authorities in Israel tried repeatedly to stop him from doing so; he ordered builders to literally build with trowel in one hand, and sword or spear in the other, in case of attack.  Thus, the ongoing "tension" between construction and having to fight.

Yes, my letter to the editor was a fluke you just never can tell about.  The local columnist liked it, so apparently it got in on that recommendation--and almost word for word, too--surprisingly.  It was in response to the columnist's earlier column about gay marriage; I said that basically we've already been breaking our marriage vows and trashed marriage for many years now, with such a high divorce rate, that it was rather hypocritical to malign the gays for wanting to adopt it as their own, if we ourselves have already thrown it in the gutter.  It almost came across as sounding like I was pro-gay, but I intended it that way.  I haven't heard about any response, and that was two months ago.  It was in a paper I don't subscribe to, so I don't know about any replies.


The John Huston film was epic for it's day--70s or 60s.  All-star cast, tho.  Anthony Quinn(Quale?) as Noah--excellent.  It's just called "The Bible", 'bout three hours long.  The people thronging and jeering Noah look just like people today--body paint, tatoos...

The three angels going down into Sodom, also, perfect.  Peter O'tool plays one of them; and he's looking around Sodom, and all the stuff they're doing, in the dark alleys.

It's just like today.