How well do you know your Bible?

[Agur3046]

Dear Tibby

17   Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

       Context is the way to go, and you are correct in that.  However, some would think that context means other scriptures.  Now that is context but the deeper context is the verses around the problem verse.  
       With James 2, I dont think He is really talking about works as evidence towards God as it is really towards men.  Im not saying that because of John 5:24 because here is the context:

 14   What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

       Take that alone, it just might say what it means.  but John is very clear about salvation, there are no works involoved so do we have a controdiction?  Not really, because in verse 15-16 shows what he really means:

15   If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16   And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

       In verse 14, it says, "Though a man says" and in these two verses, "And one of you say unto them...".  does these three verses together sound like works needed to prove to God?  No, it sounds like it is towartds other people.  Therefore:

17   Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

       Verse 18 is more telling:

18   Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

       Show who?  God?  No, the verse says, "Yea, a man say..."  Furthermore, he says, "...Show me..." Not God but sjhow me, in reference to man that is talking:

"...shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."

       John 5:24 is clear in the messege 100%  If there is a verse that seems to say something else, then the Bible controdicted itself and therefore, it is not Inspired as we hoped.  We shouldnt ignore the problem of course, but I think every verse  that seems to say the opposite can be answered simply by the cojntext around it or the background of it.  I've already posted it so feel free to  read it again.

agur

[Agur3046]

Dear Tibby

Tibby: Anyways, That makes sense. My question is this, if you head his word, and believe it, doesn't obeying it and serving come with it?

        Indeed, if I believe it, I should act on what I believed in.  However, this is not done out of being saved.  Again I should act on my faith but not for salvation or else my motives are not very clean.  Instead, I work because He saved me, because I have something others doesn't that if O share it  with them, they too can experience the freedom I have in Christ.  
       Speaking of Freedom, if I work because my Salvation is at stake, then thats not freedom, that is work that is due.  It use to be that I repent because I have no choice but to.  But now, I do have a choice; to glorify God or to sin and get chatized, but either way, I no longer act under threat but under free will made possible by Grace.

5   And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6   For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7   If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8   But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Hebrews 12

agur

[nChrist]

I've tried having fellowship with A/G's, and you can rarely have super-close friendships with them, because eventually your kajillion doctrinal disagreements will come up.

Oklahoma Howdy to Mr. 5020,

I think the same could apply with just about any two churches, depending on one or both of the people trying to communicate and have fellowship. However, the same problem could exist with people going to the same church or people attending a church of the same denomination.

What's sad is that both people are many times wrong in their arguments, but they will spend eternity together in Heaven. According to mankind, there are hundreds of types and varieties of Gospel and Baptism. However, the Holy Bible makes it exceptionally clear there is ONLY ONE GOSPEL and ONLY ONE BAPTISM. This is just an example.

In Christ,
Tom

[Petro]

Could ya shorted the post a little bit just this once

Read Titus 3 in context. We is clearly talking about works being the signs of salvation!

A sign to other men who ask, for instance like the unsaved....

This has nothing to do, with proving one is saved to God, sonce God knows better; He knows Christians He saves, were not saved by works.

Are you trying tell us you can we saved any NOT do good works?

That is exactly the point that Romans 4 and Titus 3 make, surely your reading  comprhension skills are above those of children,.................. aren't they?

I don't see what you are saying about James. CLEARLY he is saying that is Faith is fullfilled by works.

Th words "fullfill and justify" are two completely different words, this is the word gymastics one must do with Gods work to make it say  what you want it to say..

Please read the context, Paul is speaking of the works which justify; I explained to you what the definition of justification is.

Abrahams faith was shown through his works. James 2:20-24 is saying just what I am. Faith only is nothing without works

Actually Abrahams Faith, which was counted for his Righteousness are shown thru the works and it (justification) proves he was saved.

It doesn't mean he was saved, it simply means his works proved he was saved..

To twist this passage to mean something else is to remove then add words to Gods Word.

You need to familiarize yourself with scripture before you jump to conclusions, see Rev 22:18-19.

It is clear from Romans 4, that Abraham was not saved by works, he was declared righteous because of his Faith in God, and;

Rom 4
11  ........................... received the sign of ciurcumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

And his justification (proved to be righteous or saved, whichever words you want to use) came after he was tempted of God.

Do you comprehend the meaning of the word imputed??

Once again,

The word justify, is defined as;  1. To show to be just, free from blame, this is what was declared of Abraham after God had counted his faith for righteouness (Gen 15:6), when God swore the covenant to him and sealed it with an oath (Gen 22:16-18).

Justify = To show,  not the same as,  To Declare...........

What college did you say you attend??


Petro

[Saved_4ever]

Tibby what do you think these good works are anyway?


To BEP, I don't recall making any mention of brick and mortar.  The church is the people not the building.  We can just continue to disagree on other things though.

[nChrist]

To BEP, I don't recall making any mention of brick and mortar.  The church is the people not the building.  We can just continue to disagree on other things though.

Oklahoma Howdy to Saved_4ever,

The analogy is the same (neither are THE CHURCH) - some belong to the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST, and some don't. You might ask your pastor or check your Bible about the Body of Christ. Holler if you want me to provide the information. Regardless, disagreement is fine - nothing personal I hope.

In Christ,
Tom

[Saved_4ever]

To BEP, I don't recall making any mention of brick and mortar.  The church is the people not the building.  We can just continue to disagree on other things though.

Oklahoma Howdy to Saved_4ever,

The analogy is the same (neither are THE CHURCH) - some belong to the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST, and some don't. You might ask your pastor or check your Bible about the Body of Christ. Holler if you want me to provide the information. Regardless, disagreement is fine - nothing personal I hope.

In Christ,
Tom

I already have, he agree's with me.

[nChrist]

I already have, he agree's with me.

Oklahoma Howdy to Saved_4ever,

Again, nothing personal, but I think there had to be a problem with semantics or the way you asked the question. Ask him "What is the Church which is THE BODY OF CHRIST"? The Holy Bible is very clear on this matter, and I'll be happy to share it with you.

Your local assembly or my local assembly (brick and mortar or people) are not THE CHURCH. The saved people from both of our assemblies are members of THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. It would be pretty sad if your pastor told you that your only brethren in existence attended a single physical building. This is the significance of claiming a brother or sister "IN CHRIST" or closing a letter or post like below:

In Christ,
Tom

[Petro]

tibby,

So the word justify or justified does not mean saved, at all, since Christ never had to be saved, He was shown forth by the Spirit.

Not these verses;

1 Tim 3
16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

This verse above is speaking of Jesus being manisfested in the Spirit NOT being SAVED, what does the word manifested, mean to you??        

To us,Manifest is defined as  =  to show plainly, reveal.

It is clear this verse does not teach Jesus was saved, or do we believe  he was saved by the Spirit, the bible does not teach such a thing.      

The same word justified in this verse is identically the same word found in James 2;21,24 and 25.
 
Jesus was shown forth, manifested, justified , revealed, unveiled, shewed by God the Holy Spirit, the same Spirit that raise Him, from the dead.

So, understanding what one reads is directly linked to their comprehension level of the language they command.

I encourage you to pray for wisdom and understanding from above, that you may not use scripture to teach what it does not teach.
 
The book of James, teaches what it is, that justifies men, before men by them that claim to have faith in God, they can claim their good works as evidence that they are saved; if they are believed or not doesn't matter, since their works is what justifies (shows forth) their faith, and their works is based on faith in Him whom He has sent;  Jesus Christ.



Petro

[Tibby]

Oh, you can work a dictionary rather well. We all know I can't.

Try working a bible just as well, maybe you would understnad where Catholics stand. You CANNOT be saved, truly saved, and not do good works. When we are saved, we go through a change. If we don't do good works, we are not changed, and we are not saved. How can you not have works and be saved? If you are saved, you will do good works. This isn't rocket sceince.

[Heidi]

Tibby,
Out of curiousity, when did you get saved and how did your heart change?

[Saved_4ever]

Oh, you can work a dictionary rather well. We all know I can't.

Try working a bible just as well, maybe you would understnad where Catholics stand. You CANNOT be saved, truly saved, and not do good works. When we are saved, we go through a change. If we don't do good works, we are not changed, and we are not saved. How can you not have works and be saved? If you are saved, you will do good works. This isn't rocket sceince.

You haven't answered my question tibby.  What do you think these "works" are?  I do mean specifics at least three.

[Petro]

tibby,

You said;

at reply #72
I don't see what you are saying about James. CLEARLY he is saying that is Faith is fullfilled by works.

Allow me to bring out what you have written which is not true;

"CLEARLY he is saying that is Faith is fullfilled by works."

The end result of faith is righteousness, not works or it can said; ............faith is fullfilled in righteousness.

Now you say;

at reply #84

You CANNOT be saved, truly saved, and not do good works. When we are saved, we go through a change. If we don't do good works, we are not changed, and we are not saved. How can you not have works and be saved? If you are saved, you will do good works. This isn't rocket sceince.

Allow me to draw out your contradiction.

When we are saved, we go through a change. If we don't do good works, we are not changed, and we are not saved.

Two sentences and you completely contradict yourself.

In the first one you say, exactly what I have been stating all along, one must be saved in order to do good works this is biblical; while in the second sentence you say; one must do good works in order to be changed, and if one doesn't do good works,  one is not saved,

reinforcing the idea that unless one does good works one cannot be saved.

In the first quote at reply #73 you said, "Faith is fullfilled by works", this is the issue;  now you say;

"How can you not have works and be saved? If you are saved, you will do good works."

And I  am not disagreeing with you, at this point!  I have pointed out all along, GODS WORKS are done, because one is saved..

But your confusion lies in the fact that you really do not believe a man is SAVED, by faith alone, and clearly the scriptures teach this point at Gal 2:16;

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

I know that what you really believe in; and that it is the first point which you posted at reply #73, which is the one I take issue with you, because it is unbilical.

Because what you really believe is what the Catholic church teaches, and that is that, one must DO good works TO BE SAVED, not that one does good works BECAUSE one is saved.

Now this is what the Catholic church teaches;

There is quite a difference..between doing good works in order to be changed (saved), and doing good works because one is changed (saved).

************
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/360310.htm

SERMON X. ON THE COLLECTIONS,v...............................

"But, perhaps there are some rich people, who, although they are not wont to help the Church's poor by bounteous gifts, yet keep other commands of GOD, and among their 121 many meritorious acts of faith and uprightness think they will be pardoned for the lack of this one virtue But this is so important that, though the rest exist without it, they can be of no avail."
"And when the Son of Man comes in His Majesty and is seated on His glorious throne, and all nations being gathered together, division is made between the good and the bad, for what shall they be praised who stand upon the fight except for works of benevolence and deeds of love which Jesus Christ shall reckon as done to Himself? For He who has made man's nature His own, has separated Himself in nothing from man's humility. And what objection shall be made to those on the left except for their neglect of love, their inhuman harshness, their refusal of mercy to the poor? as if those on the right had no other virtues those on the left no other faults. But at the great and final day of judgment large-hearted liberality and ungodly meanness will be counted of such importance as to outweigh all other virtues and all other shortcomings, so that for the one men shall gain entrance into the Kingdom, for the other they shall be sent into eternal fire. IV. And its efficacy, as Scripture proves, is incalculable. Let no one therefore, dearly beloved, flatter himself on any merits of a good life, if works of charity be wanting in him, and let him not trust in the purity of his body, if he be not cleansed by the purification of almsgiving. For "almsgiving wipes out sin, kills death, and extinguishes the punishment of perpetual fire. But he who has not been fruitful therein, shall have no indulgence from the great Re-compenser, as Solomon says, "He that closeth his ears lest he should hear the weak, shall himself call upon the LORD, and there shall be none to hear him."
*************

Clearly what is being taught herein is that, good works is what saves the people that give, to meet the need of the needy.

Note the words above;

It is in this work of giving that sins are forgiven;

"almsgiving wipes out sin, kills death, and extinguishes the punishment of perpetual fire".

In short good works in the form of almsgiving is what justifies and makes alive then one that was dead becuase of sin.

In contrast to what scripture explicitly teaches that man is justified first before God and then thru his good works justifies himself before men.

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. (James 2:18)

And by the way the Catholic church believes and teaches Abraham was justified before God (why they teach man is justified by works may be because of an ulterior motive), at Gen 17:5, when his faith was counted to him, for righteousnes way before he was tested by God (Gen 22:1) it wasn't until almost twenty years after God declared him righteous.

Abraham was already justified by his faith in God, when God commanded him, to sacrifice his only begotten son, Isaac, of Sarah, This is why Paul wrote Rom 4:1-3.

Petro

[ebia]

while in the second sentence you say; one must do good works in order to be changed, and if one doesn't do good works,  one is not saved,

No he didn't, but distinguishing between cause and effect doesn't seem to be your strog suit, does it?

What he said was, if you have been saved, then that will cause you to do good works.  Therefore, anyone who doesn't do good works has clearly not been saved.

For "almsgiving wipes out sin", kills death, and extinguishes the punishment of perpetual fire.

This is clearly a quote, but I don't suppose you know from where?

[Tibby]

Ebia put it best:

What he said was, if you have been saved, then that will cause you to do good works.  Therefore, anyone who doesn't do good works has clearly not been saved.

They are not contradictory. You are full of it. We can’t have faith without works, we can’t have faith with out works.

Your car has to have an engine to move.
You Car has to have tires to move.
Your can need some form of power to move.

These are not contradictory, they are all different things required to make a car move undependably. from one place to the next. If anyone one of these things was gone, we would be calling a toe truck. You would not say “Oh, but the tires are full and the gas is in the tank” but take the engine out because it seems to be in contradiction to the fact that Tires and gasoline make the car go? No.

Oh yeah, I couldn’t help but notice Gal 2:16 has justified in it. Very interesting, don’t you think? Especially with what you said about this before… Now, YOU are contradicting your self, my brother.

Read James 2:18, I don’t think you understand it. He is clearly saying Faith is nothing with good works, he is saying “show me your dead Faith, I will show you my true faith.”