How well do you know your Bible?

[nChrist]

If you simply acknowledge that there are problems in the Catholic church then you wouldn't be so bothered when other people believe the same. But if you don't see any problems in the Catholic church then I believe there's some idol worshiping going on.

Oklahoma Howdy to Heidi,

It's a definite there are problems with all of mankind's churches, including mine and your own. If a person has Jesus in their heart and is truly Saved, would you base your fellowship on the name of the church they attend?

Could it be said there is prejudice and stereotypical thinking based on the name of the church a person attends before they even mention what they believe? The answer is obviously yes, even if the name of the church doesn't hint at any association with a known denomination.

Just two cents worth.

In Christ,
Tom

[Petro]

tibby,

What you refer to garbage, are the official teachings of this institution.

In accusing me of not knowing what the catholic church teaches, you condenm yourself as a heretic to the teachings of the organization you embrace..

Go figure??

Didn't  say you were an enigma?

petro as reply #33
Actually Tibby is an enigma, like many american catholics, while claiming membership in this organization, they really don't believe her teachings, so my question is why even confess one is catholic or even defend dogmas which clearly are contrary to scripture.

The answer is tradition..they were born into this church and hold on to the portions of teachings they like, and it makes them feel like they accomplishing something towards their own salvation.

Ther are some who join this church, but it isn't because they understand it's teachings, but because of associations, anyhow memebership in any church doesn't garuantee anything so far as God is concerned.

Petro

Petro

[Tibby]

Heidi, we have talked about this. I don't have a problem with people who don't like the Catholic Church because of its problems. No group is prefect. It is the falsehoods I find annoying.

Well said, BEP.

[Agur3046]

Dear Tibby

       I dont remember if you wanted to start off or not.  However, if you were waiting on me, then here's my first shot (verse):

John 5:24

24   Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Here, Salvation is clearly simple,
"...he that heareth my word..." - thats the Gospel messege -"...and Believeth (notice, no works here) on Him that sent me Has..." or have Present tense,
"...Everlasting Life..."  Everlasting Life or Eternal Life means UNending Life
"...And shall not come into condemnation but is passed from death to life"  No buts or if here because this is unconditional.

       Notice also that It says at the beginning, "Verily Verily..." - that strong emphasis.  Whenever you hear that, He is placing importance to it and this verse is no exception so it is not one of those nice saying but it is truth.

agur

[Tibby]

No, no. It was me who was going to start. I got sidetracked I apologize. I never answer LG's apologetics post, either, lie kI said I would. Oh well

Anyways, That makes sense. My question is this, if you head his word, and believe it, doesn't obeying it and serving come with it? For example, When a caterpiller becomes a butterfly, he has wings, will he not use them? If we arn't going good works, do we truly believe what the Gospal says? To put it into biblical terms:

James 2:17- In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

This verse must be read in context to get the full meaning, but the rules are, one verse, so please, look it up for the full feel of the verse. Anyways, this clearly starts that Faith isn't enough, you cna't just believe. If you do not do the work of the faith, then the fiath is dead, pointless!

[Saved_4ever]

If you simply acknowledge that there are problems in the Catholic church then you wouldn't be so bothered when other people believe the same. But if you don't see any problems in the Catholic church then I believe there's some idol worshiping going on.

Oklahoma Howdy to Heidi,

It's a definite there are problems with all of mankind's churches, including mine and your own. If a person has Jesus in their heart and is truly Saved, would you base your fellowship on the name of the church they attend?

Could it be said there is prejudice and stereotypical thinking based on the name of the church a person attends before they even mention what they believe? The answer is obviously yes, even if the name of the church doesn't hint at any association with a known denomination.

Just two cents worth.

In Christ,
Tom

BEP I'm a little surprised at this answer or post from you.  A person joins a church because they hold the same beliefs as that church.  I would NEVER be a member of a church that did not hold the same beliefs the same as I would never marry an unbelieving woman.

I would never be a part of a methodist church because methodists on the whole believe you can lose your salvation(those that don't are far and few between).  So of course when tibby claims to be catholic we know what his beliefs are (though I wonder how much he does often), or if some says they are a JW, AoG, etc etc, we know what they believe before hand.  This is why they are a part of that church.  This is why I am an Independent Fundamental Baptist.

There is no mystical body of Christ at this time, else there'd be no reason to have churchs (or for the stupid picky ones a called out assembly).

Those that are saved are part of the family of God but are not part of any church until they are baptised into one.

[Saved_4ever]

No, no. It was me who was going to start. I got sidetracked I apologize. I never answer LG's apologetics post, either, lie kI said I would. Oh well

Anyways, That makes sense. My question is this, if you head his word, and believe it, doesn't obeying it and serving come with it? For example, When a caterpiller becomes a butterfly, he has wings, will he not use them? If we arn't going good works, do we truly believe what the Gospal says? To put it into biblical terms:

James 2:17- In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

This verse must be read in context to get the full meaning, but the rules are, one verse, so please, look it up for the full feel of the verse. Anyways, this clearly starts that Faith isn't enough, you cna't just believe. If you do not do the work of the faith, then the fiath is dead, pointless!

Oh no, looks like tibby's back on the works bandwagon.    Such a shame must be all that good catholic doctrine.  

If you will read over my posts, many time ,I make a distention between the RCC and Catholic.

I was sure I told you about all of this, Jason, didn’t I? I knew wasn’t Roman Catholic. I remember, when I first came on the board, I told both you and Petro. Remember, Petro ( think it was Petro) started ranting about me being an Independent Catholic, and I said No no, I’m CEC, no Independent Catholic. As I said, I’m not sure if it was Petro or someone else, but I know you where there, Jason.

I said the RCC was a pagan institution.  You said no we are not.  Then you tell me you aren't a RC.  I think you're confused.

[Heidi]

I agree with Saved 4 ever. All I know is that I have yet to meet one praciticing Catholic who KNOWS he has met his Lord and Savior on a personal level. I'm sure there are some who have but it hasn't been in my experience. On the other hand, I have yet to meet one person from the E-Free, Pentescostal or Assembly of Gof church who has NOT met his savior on a personal level. Something is wrong with the Catholic teaching if the congregation is not getting that message. That's all I'm going to say on this subject.

[Tibby]

Explain the verse that I posted, then. Clearly, it means if you have no works, then you are not saved. It isn't enough to say the words. Just you honestly beleive in your heart, you will do good works. End of story.

When did I say we. I'm not saying I didn't, because, with the vast majority of my family RCC, I do hold a special place in my heart. BUt I do not remimber saying "we" when directly referring to the RCC. Catholic, Yes, Roman, maybe. Either way, I told you many time before I was CEC. Why did you not bring this up before now?

Heidi, the congragation is getting the message. Because you word it differently then some doesn't make it any less valid. You say you have yet to meet Pentescostal or Assembly of God people who are saved, uh? But every Catholic you know isn't saved, uh? Way to look at at the heart! Oh, wait... isn't only God able to do that...

[btettemer]

Explain the verse that I posted, then. Clearly, it means if you have no works, then you are not saved. It isn't enough to say the words. Just you honestly beleive in your heart, you will do good works. End of story.

If I said I was a painter and you asked to see my paintings and I said I have none to show you, would you not doubt I was a painter?  What if I have never painted, but in my heart I truly believed I am a painter, am I a painter?  I think I would be hardpressed to convince anyone I was a painter.  So, can a Christian without works be a valuable witness for Christ? I sincerely doubt it. And for what reason are we Christians?  To glorify God, I hope.  WIthout works, we may be Christians, but we are worthless CHristians, and what good is that?

[Tibby]

Well said

[Petro]

posted by tibby as reply #68
Explain the verse that I posted, then. Clearly, it means if you have no works, then you are not saved. It isn't enough to say the words. Just you honestly beleive in your heart, you will do good works. End of story.

tibby,

I'll give the end of the story.........

This verse is famously used by catholics, to prove nothing to those they want to impresss with their knowledge of scripture. And they fail miserably.

The fact is one has to look at the context in which this one verse is spoken by James.

In the first place, the Apostle Paul, makes it perfectly clear that Abraham performed NO WORK as his FAITH was counted for Righteouness (Rom4:1-8), of course one needs to read the scriptures in their context, not just around and try to put forth their owns churchs teachings, and this same FAITH was what justified Abraham when God tested him  (Heb 11:17-19), this is precisely what Paul is speaking of at Romans 4, that Abraham, in obedience to Gods command to sacrifice his only son, thru whom the promises would be attaned, was willing to obey (without questioning God), "Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead;" such was Abrahams FAITH in his GOD.

Now, consider of what James is speaking of and the context in which he makes this beloved verse by those who work;  (The whole passage is verses 1 thru 22), I won't post them all, but will focus on the ones you use to try and prove your works will save you.

It is clear between verses 1 thru 16, that James is speaking to christians and exhorting them how to conduct themselves, in a way the pleases God, since He is no respecter of person, christians are called to fulfill the Royal Law {vs 8}, they ought not respect persons nor make distinctions between them, for to do so, is sin (vs 9); and (although christians are not under the law, since it has been abolished with the NT, (2Cor 3:13, Eph 2:15) although transgression of the law is still sin (1 Jhn 3:4), one most show forth obedience to the law as a testimony of ones FAITH in God.

 At verses 15 and 16, Paul gives an example of what christians ought not to do, if they see a needy person, he ends it by asking the question;  

16    And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

So thats a valid question, What does it profit for a christian to witness about Gods goodness and mercy, if one is not willing to show forth the same attributes as a testimony of ones FAITH in that goodness and mercy by meeting the  persons imediate needs.

The answer of course is nothing, since the christians blessing means nothing to the person who has the need. So the christians faith to him (the needy person) is seeing as dead faith (vs 17), unless he sees the christians work, love goodness, and mercy in meeting his needs.

So one can clearly see, that this work is not to be saved, but simply to showforth to men, and whoeverelse asks, show me your faith??  What have you done for God?? You who says you have Faith..

On the other hand if a christian makes an effort to meet the physical needs of an unbeliver who has a need, he has shown that his FAITH in God is a living FAITH in a Living God.

And this is what Paul is  saying at verse 18;

18  Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

The word justify, is defined as;  1. To show to be just, free from blame, this is what was declared of Abraham after God had counted his faith for righteouness (Gen 15:6), when God swore the covenant to him and sealed it with an oath (Gen 22:16-18).

The same words "justified" which proves Abraham was righteous, as used in the following verse simply reiterate the same words Paul states in Rom 4, concerning Abraham;

James 2
20  But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21  Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23  And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Abraham was declared righteous before he was tempted of God (Gen 22:1) and was simply justified, when he obeyed God, proving he was righteous.

In the same way, christians show forth their faith in God, by doing works worthy of their faith in God, not because they will be saved, because it is clear that no man can be saved by works of righteouness;

Titus 3
4  But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

You are a college student, I trust you are able to understand these simple definition of words.

Work is not required to be saved, it is the result of being saved.  

Petro

[Tibby]

Could ya shorted the post a little bit just this once

Read Titus 3 in context. We is clearly talking about works being the signs of salvation!

Are you trying tell us you can we saved any NOT do good works?

I don't see what you are saying about James. CLEARLY he is saying that is Faith is fullfilled by works. Abrahams faith was shown through his works. James 2:20-24 is saying just what I am. Faith only is nothing without works.

[nChrist]

BEP I'm a little surprised at this answer or post from you.  A person joins a church because they hold the same beliefs as that church.  I would NEVER be a member of a church that did not hold the same beliefs the same as I would never marry an unbelieving woman.

Oklahoma Howdy to Saved_4ever,

I don't think you understood my post, and I would certainly have to disagree with a portion of your post.

"It's a definite there are problems with all of mankind's churches, including mine and your own. If a person has Jesus in their heart and is truly Saved, would you base your fellowship on the name of the church they attend?"

If a person has Jesus in their heart and is truly Saved, are you saying you wouldn't have any fellowship with them unless they went to your physical church building? As far as I am concerned, the Bible clearly teaches that person is my brother or sister in Christ if they are truly saved. God doesn't care about the name over the door of the physical church building.

There is no mystical body of Christ at this time, else there'd be no reason to have churchs (or for the stupid picky ones a called out assembly).

Those that are saved are part of the family of God but are not part of any church until they are baptized into one.

Here, I would have to respectfully but completely disagree with you. It doesn't mean that I don't think your saved, and it doesn't mean that I can't have fellowship with you because of this disagreement. I have no doubt that you are saved, so you are my brother in Christ.

As far as I am concerned, joining a church made out of brick and mortar with human hands means nothing. The Church which is the Body of Christ most certainly exists. All truly saved people are members of the Church which is the Body of Christ, a church not made with human hands. Membership and baptism into physical church buildings means nothing. Your brick and mortar church is simply a place to assemble and worship on earth, but citizenship and church membership is in heaven for saved people.

You can see your brick and mortar church building, but it's not THE CHURCH. One could have their name on the membership roles and be baptized into a hundred physical church buildings and not be saved. One gets their name in the LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE by accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour and being BAPTIZED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. A man doesn't do the baptism, and Christ is the head over THE CHURCH. A saved person is a MEMBER OF HIS BODY, THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST.

In Christ,
Tom

[Mr. 5020]

I've tried having fellowship with A/G's, and you can rarely have super-close friendships with them, because eventually your kajillion doctrinal disagreements will come up.