How well do you know your Bible?

[nChrist]

This is exactly the point, the person that is saved, will produce good works for God, but not to be saved; but becuase that person is saved

Ya think? What have we been argueing about?

Oklahoma Howdy to Brother Tibby,

This question has been discussed throughout the ages, sometimes bitterly and sometimes from a Biblical perspective that tends to build up the participants.

One such discussion from a Biblical perspective involved justification before men as opposed to justification before Almighty God. This discussion can lead to the walk of the believer and the testimony of the believer, both being important topics. Paul and James both addressed this and other issues.

The argument on the far end of the spectrum involves Paul or James, one or the other having to be wrong. Throughout the ages, the argument went so far as to say that the writings of one or the other needed to be removed from the Holy Bible. Some went so far as to say one had to be a heretic. These arguments were usually bitter and usually involved a legalist claiming Paul to be a heretic. If you think about it, there are a large number of people throughout the ages who have never accepted the Gospel of the Grace of God, nor have they accepted Jesus Christ as being the Son of God.

The reality is that Paul and James DO NOT conflict or contradict each other. They mesh perfectly within the Gospel of the Grace of God.

In Christ,
Tom

[Agur3046]

Petro Says:
"This is exactly the point, the person that is saved, will produce good works for God, but not to be saved; but becuase that person is saved."

      I'm in full agreement with this.  If faith requires something else to get one to heaven, then it is not Saving faith at all.  You either trust Jesus completely for your salvation or you don't.  And this kind of Faith is not Faithfulness nor is it something that you have to have in order to remain Saved because if that is so, then thats effort (works) and that is not Saving Faith nor is it really the Gospel that saves.
      Tibby, you said that if one has true faith, one will work.  In a sense, yes, because when persecution comes around, phony members will leave.  However this is the question you have to ask yourself:

Can you lose that Salvation, yes or no?

      If you ssay yes to this, then it doesn't matter whether they believe enough, continueing in faith or have clean reasons because either way, if you can lose it, you will have to do something about that to keep it.

If it is all free will, then isn't so that salvation IS dependant on the person?  

        Faith or no faith, according to RCC Gospel, it is still dependant on a person, and again, Saving Faith is not something you have to continue on or having.  The Kind of faith that you do have to continue on is not the faith in context with Salvation but instead, relationship with God, now thats where faith is needed to help you work; thats where faith and works go hand-in-hand but never concerning salvation.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth: to the Jew first then also and unto the Greeks
For therein is the righteiousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith
Romans 1:16-17

      And the Gospel does not mean the whole Bible though it is good.  But, the Good-News is this in the nutshell:


1  Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2  By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4  And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:5  And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1 Corinthians 15:1-5

      If you believe this, you are saved and thats the end of it.  Now you enter a relationshjip than a religion and your practice as a believer is true religion.

agur

[Heidi]

I once knew a person who believed Jesus died for his sins, but he had no heart change. I think there is such a thing as an intellectual understanding of salvation without having received the holy Spirit. In fact, there are many people who go to church who believe Jesus died for their sins, but they don't know what it means to be born again. Salvation comes when the Holy Spirit comes inside of us and takes up residence.

[Agur3046]

Heidi Says:
"I once knew a person who believed Jesus died for his sins, but he had no heart change. I think there is such a thing as an intellectual understanding of salvation without having received the holy Spirit. In fact, there are many people who go to church who believe Jesus died for their sins, but they don't know what it means to be born again. Salvation comes when the Holy Spirit comes inside of us and takes up residence."

        Amen Heidi, I was wandering about it (I wondered everytime if I were saved).  What if someone just says yes to everything the Gospel messege (God is Holy, Man has Fallen-cannot reach Him, Christ took Mans Place, and man's response)?  
       That is just like a Jew saying in James 2, "Yes there is one God"  Yet to that even the demons shudder at the thought.  Did those demons really believe?  They do believe He exists; after all, they did see God's glory, and Satan was in His presence, so do they believe God is, and JEsus Is Christ and God?   Hard question, but in a sense, Yes, because they saw God so there is no way they can deny His existance and they probably knew what God stood for, but that's as far as  it goes.

George Bush in is speech concerning 9/11 says to the World, "You are either with us or with the Terrorist?"

       Knowing who God is isn't enough, what you do with that knowledge?  

agur

[Petro]

This is exactly the point, the person that is saved, will produce good works for God, but not to be saved; but becuase that person is saved

Ya think? What have we been argueing about?

tibby,

You should really change your moniker to "ziggy", because of your zigging and zagging.

Please note, what I answered in my reply #71;

posted by petro
Work is not required to be saved, it is the result of being saved.

Now you ask....... "What have we been argueing about?", I haven't been arguing anything, but shoring up, the same statement I made back then at reply #71, it is exactly what I stated in my last post herein.

The Catholic church teaches a salvation works gospel, and although you were able to slide under the statement BEP made when he asked,

"Could it be that everyone is right and everyone is wrong at the same time?"

I know exactly what you mean...and that is that not only must one be saved to do good works, but, that one must continue doing good works to remain saved.

That is an unbilbical position....

Now tell me, you don't believe this..??

And I will understand that what you honestly believe is that what the Catholic church teaches is garbage...

Petro

[Petro]

heidi's reply #107
I once knew a person who believed Jesus died for his sins, but he had no heart change.

Heidi,

You sound as thou you are God, what qualifies you to know, this mans heart??





If your not, I will erase this question from here..

Petro

Sorry, it was suzie...oh well..  

Petro

[Forrest]

I once knew a person who believed Jesus died for his sins, but he had no heart change. I think there is such a thing as an intellectual understanding of salvation without having received the holy Spirit. In fact, there are many people who go to church who believe Jesus died for their sins, but they don't know what it means to be born again. Salvation comes when the Holy Spirit comes inside of us and takes up residence.

   Heidi;
    I agree with you I have met, and knowen many that have head knowledge, but not hart knowledge of what Christ has did for us.

[Petro]

I once knew a person who believed Jesus died for his sins, but he had no heart change. I think there is such a thing as an intellectual understanding of salvation without having received the holy Spirit. In fact, there are many people who go to church who believe Jesus died for their sins, but they don't know what it means to be born again. Salvation comes when the Holy Spirit comes inside of us and takes up residence.

   Heidi;
    I agree with you I have met, and knowen many that have head knowledge, but not hart knowledge of what Christ has did for us.

So forrest,

Are posting this because you agree with ziggy??

Or is it because you are implying you know my heart.


Petro

[Agur3046]

Dear Brother Petro

You said:

"Heidi, 'You sound as thou you are God, what qualifies you to know, this mans heart???'"

       Wow, now wait-a-minute...Petro, I don't think she is proclaiming a relevation of sort nor is it a dispensation adding to doctrines already found in the Bible such as the Rapture.  Now of course, you meant the insides of man's heart, but you acted as if she made a breech.  
       No where did she claim to know but only she "Thinks..."  Instead, I think she got the idea though experience and observation.  

I once knew a person who believed Jesus died for his sins, but he had no heart change. I think there is such a thing as an intellectual understanding of salvation without having received the holy Spirit. In fact, there are many people who go to church who believe Jesus died for their sins, but they don't know what it means to be born again. Salvation comes when the Holy Spirit comes inside of us and takes up residence.

       Now if you are in need to defeat her "Authority" concerining Intellectual faith then in like-manner, prove me wrong.  Look at my response to her because I posted scriptures in support.

agur

[Agur3046]

       Oh by the way, Petro...have you read the Parable on the seeds and the sower?  How seeds fall in various places but all died but one which landed on Good Soil?

18   Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19   When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

       This can be a person who simply said yes but have no real reason why he/she should.  Pretty much just do what everyone else is doing.

20   But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21   Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

       The root for faith is knowledge but also seriousness seriousness - counting the cost prior to faith.  Now all who believes have varying faith; some as small as the mustard seed, and others like the centurian.  Regardless of how small, if serious, their faith saved them.  Now we know Christ will save all that believes him (John 10:28).  Christ also says that whosoever perservear to the end, the same shall be saved (Note: salvation is not discussed in this passage, otherwise the verses around would have indicated it -Matthew 24:13).  True believers will persevere, for are we not "more than conquerers?"
       But for someone who simply says yes, and recieved it with joy, did he/she recieved it with joy but they ran!  Keep in mind that every believer persevears - did they really believe, or did they simply said yes thinking "Ah yes, im saved..."   I think their faith is sort of Cavalier that they took his Salvation for granted so when persecution comes - "Wow - not for me!!!"  Their Faith is no faith, they never recieved Salvation because their decisions to believe is not genuine - like going to church every sunday like many protestants see see Catholics do.

22   He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

       Could it be that people gave their lives to Christ because of the promises of Riches?  Of course!  they stake their lives on hte promise but they may find themselves still poor not knowing that the riches of Christ is not found on money.  Again though it is dependant on the seriousness of he person because one can be attracted to money but at the same time "You know, even if I am not rich, shouldn't I just accept Christ?"

23   But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

       Now this is real faith, one who trusts God according to knowledge

Jesus' Explination on the parable of the Sower - Matthew 13:18-23

agur

[Forrest]

So forrest,

Are posting this because you agree with ziggy??

Or is it because you are implying you know my heart.


Petro

      Petro;
     Who is Ziggy?
     As for "implying you know my heart." no I do not.
 

Heidi;
    I agree with you I have met, and knowen many that have head knowledge, but not hart knowledge of what Christ has did for us.

 was adressed to Heidi not Petro.
   What would you call One who lives in sin admetedly, and knows the plan of salvation, belives its real but rejects it,and tells you that he would rather go to hell, and yes I have met some that are that dedecated to Satan.

[Tibby]

Oh, I’m Ziggy, uh? Well you, you are… you are Charlie Brown!

Ok for real, just because you don’t understand what I say the first several times doesn’t mean I change my mind.

Also, you CLEARLY misunderstand Catholic Doctrine. This comes as no surprise, of course. It seems to be your signature. I guess I'm lucky, at least you don’t slash a “Z” in my shirt.

Now comes the hard decision. To correct you once again, so you can say once again “Na ha, Tibby, you are wrong, because I know more about what you believe then you do” or to make this my last post on this thread about this topic… I think I saw a strip of Dilbert comics where he had to make a choice like this to make…

Ah, comics are geat

[Petro]

Oh, I’m Ziggy, uh? Well you, you are… you are Charlie Brown!

Ok for real, just because you don’t understand what I say the first several times doesn’t mean I change my mind.

Also, you CLEARLY misunderstand Catholic Doctrine. This comes as no surprise, of course. It seems to be your signature. I guess I'm lucky, at least you don’t slash a “Z” in my shirt.

Now comes the hard decision. To correct you once again, so you can say once again “Na ha, Tibby, you are wrong, because I know more about what you believe then you do” or to make this my last post on this thread about this topic… I think I saw a strip of Dilbert comics where he had to make a choice like this to make…

Ah, comics are geat

tibby,

There you go slithering again,  

To correct you once again,

What have corrected?....................as useually................nothing..

Petro

[Tibby]

Yeah, nothing you will listen too.

[Petro]

Dear Brother Petro

You said:

"Heidi, 'You sound as thou you are God, what qualifies you to know, this mans heart???'"

       Wow, now wait-a-minute...Petro, I don't think she is proclaiming a relevation of sort nor is it a dispensation adding to doctrines already found in the Bible such as the Rapture.  Now of course, you meant the insides of man's heart, but you acted as if she made a breech.  
       No where did she claim to know but only she "Thinks..."  Instead, I think she got the idea though experience and observation.  

I once knew a person who believed Jesus died for his sins, but he had no heart change. I think there is such a thing as an intellectual understanding of salvation without having received the holy Spirit. In fact, there are many people who go to church who believe Jesus died for their sins, but they don't know what it means to be born again. Salvation comes when the Holy Spirit comes inside of us and takes up residence.

       Now if you are in need to defeat her "Authority" concerining Intellectual faith then in like-manner, prove me wrong.  Look at my response to her because I posted scriptures in support.

agur

agur,

It makes no never mind, the heart is not revealed to men, God saves sinners, and some who are saved,  to others appear to have no heart change.

To say matter of fact like;  "He had no heart change" is to assert somehow, one knows the heart.

It is not the same as saying I know what you believe from what you say, or post.

On these things one may state; I think joe blow may not really believe what he claims to believe.

There are all sorts of doctrines being taught out there today, sorting out believers from those who claim to believe requires discernment, to speak of others hearts is one thing, to speak concerning their own words is a different matter..

Petro