Women in leadership roles....

[sincereheart]

Allinall on a role?

Yup! Absolutely!

I thought folks were supposed to strive to be a blessing to others.

Allinall's been a blessing to me! If he hasn't been to you, maybe it's because he's not saying what you WANT to hear!  

Ruling and leading are entirely different spirits.  Leader of the household vs. Ruler of the household?  Is there not a clear distinction?

Finally! I think you're getting it!   I'm afraid you've been getting mixed-up on the distinction!  

As for all the other jabs, I'll just say..... Instead of looking to have people agree with you when what you say goes against Scripture; you might to say "Thank you" when they point out your errors.  

God's way works! I'm living proof! The problem with your examples earlier - about 'following' an ungodly husband - is that we should let the Lord lead us to a husband. The problems arise when we do it our way....

[His_child]

God's way works! I'm living proof! The problem with your examples earlier - about 'following' an ungodly husband - is that we should let the Lord lead us to a husband. The problems arise when we do it our way....

What happens if we marry the man God has for us and down the road that man stops being a Godly leader in the home?

[sincereheart]

God's way works! I'm living proof! The problem with your examples earlier - about 'following' an ungodly husband - is that we should let the Lord lead us to a husband. The problems arise when we do it our way....

What happens if we marry the man God has for us and down the road that man stops being a Godly leader in the home?

I saw this earlier and wanted to wait and prayerfully answer you.

Some thoughts.....
We are our husband's helper not his keeper. Therefore, you can't control him but you can control you. By that; I mean that you can control your own attitudes, actions, etc.

The least, and most, you can do is pray. Pray for a better attitude, outlook, heart, whatever the problem is you're having with dealing with the situation.

Pray for your husband. Pray that God will work on his heart, pray that God will guide him to be the spiritual leader in your home. Pray that God opens your eyes so that you can see your husband as God sees him.

Start your day with prayer to give you the strength to get through each day. No worries about tomorrow; just strength for that day ("give us this day our *spiritual* daily bread").

Remember that when your husband is most unloveable is when he most needs to be loved. Remember why you married him. Remember how you knew he was the one God had for you! Then think about the situation now and see if you can find why God put you together. Was it for just a time as this? When you're husband is most down? When he would need for you to be strong? Did he know that any other woman might nag or belittle or berate and that you were just the one that wouldn't? Did He know that this would be a strengthening of your relationship with Him? God can handle all your frustrations and anger and fear and resentment. Take it to Him!

When these times pass, will your husband look back and KNOW that his wife will stand by him through anything - because man, those were hard times and he learned to trust her? Will he remember tough times and smile because he had a wife that loved and respected him till he got back on his feet?

Turn it over to God and LEAVE it there! Stay in His Word! Read Proverbs 31. Read it again. Re-read it.

[His_child]

Interesting that you should mention Proverbs 31.
When my husband was laid off from his job he suffered much depression.
He was the only one who couldn't see that he was sick.
He had no interest in finding another job.
He turned down jobs all the while telling me that the Lord would provide.
Against my husband's wishes, I went to work.
I prayed about it and felt it was the right thing to do. The Proverbs 31 woman kept coming to my mind. She sees what needs to be done and she does it.
During the time my husband was laid off he was not showing any interest in leading our family. I had to do that and I honestly feel the woman in Proverbs 31 would have done the same.

My husband started a new job about 2 weeks ago. The difference in him is night and day.
He is not at all fond of his new job, but he feels much better about himself and he is able to lead our family better.

When he was suffering, he couldn't do it so I had to.

[sincereheart]

She worked, too.....

16 She considers a field and buys it;
out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.
24 She makes linen garments and sells them,
and supplies the merchants with sashes.


My husband started a new job about 2 weeks ago. The difference in him is night and day.

That's wonderful!  

[His_child]

She worked, too.....

16 She considers a field and buys it;
out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.
24 She makes linen garments and sells them,
and supplies the merchants with sashes.


My husband started a new job about 2 weeks ago. The difference in him is night and day.

That's wonderful!  

Yes, she did work.
However I took a job outside the home against my husband's wishes.
If it were up to him, we'd be collecting welfare.
He saw nothing against two able bodied adults collecting welfare.
I wanted to teach our children a better work ethic than that.
My husband hates the idea of me working outside the home, but he now sees how it was necessary and is still necessary for me to hold down a job.
See, I was married once before and my ex-husband has custody of 2 of our 3 children. I have to pay child support to him.
My husband consistantly told me that he thought the children should be living with me and how he felt I got treated unfairly so he felt that I shouldn't have to pay the child support.
Now, I not only have to pay current child support, I have to pay back child support as well.
I got away from the victim mentality and found that I don't mind paying child support. They are my children and I love them dearly. I will give them every thing they need and some of the things they want.
I searched the Scriptures and did a lot of praying.
I kept coming back to the words of Jesus when He says to render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's.
My husband still doesn't agree with my decision to work, but he understands a little better why I am going to continue working until that debt is paid off.
It also really bothered me that my husband wasn't too concerned about the fact that not paying child support is a felony.
My husband would say that if it came down that I might go to jail, we'd find the best lawyers to get me out and the judge would see that I was being unfairly treated.
I totally support child support laws and I was being quite the hypocrit by thinking that they applied to everyone but me.
It will probably be necessary for me to hold down a job until I reach the age of retirement.  
Like I said earlier, my husband still wants me to be the obedient wife and quit my job. However, he knows that will not happen anytime soon.
I have to be obedient to my husband. However, I have to be obedient to my Lord over my husband. If what my husband instructs is in conflict with what my Lord instructs, then I have to disobey my husband.

[C C]

Hi His_Child,

Obeying and submitting are not the same words.  Obey the commandments of the Lord, submit to your husband.    There's a Lord, He is King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, and I think that out ranks any "husband" status.    Keep in mind however, there's few things better in life than a love that gives you hope and strength.  Although, the ten commandments do not include, "Wives submit to your husbands" as some people make it out to be, the higher law of love says that husbands and wives should submit to each other.  In the garden of Eden, God created Eve to be Adam's helper.  Lots of people like to say, it says "helper" so therefore Adam was her boss.  Not so.  The Holy Spirit is also our helper and we aren't the boss of the Holy Spirit.  In addition, what Eve needed to HELP Adam with did not include a bunch of work because it was BEFORE the "by the sweat of thy brow thou shalt eat thy bread" curse.  So, in essense, it wasn't working for Adam or under Adam that Eve was created for.  There was no real work that needed helping with.  Adam was given charge over the animals, and Eve was created to be his healper.  Before the original sin, Eve was a co-leader because Adam didn't need a worker or a slave or someone to boss around.  Read those scriptures over and see if makes sense to you.

Still the sciptures says that husbands and wives should submit to each other because it's about love, not laws.  

I would like to point out that Paul wrote different letters to each of the churches.  He didn't write one standard letter, but each letter was addressed to a specific church.  This point of Paul writing different things to the different churchs, included with the example of Aninias and Saphira, who croaked over and died because they were hypocrites.  They wanted it to look like they'd given all that they had, when in actuality they held some back.  It was their right, BUT the point was they wanted people to THINK they gave all that they had.  They didn't.  Thus, they croaked over their hypocrasy.  The churches in that day, obviously, were composed of at least less hypocrits.  Obviously, the hypocrites in our churches aren't croaking over and dying like in the churches back in that day.  It is possible that ALL the men in the churches where Paul tells the wives to submit, those men were totally worthy of submission.  I disagree that ALL men are worthy of submission in the churches in our day.  I have a strong feeling if Paul was going to write a letter specifically to each and every church in our day, he wouldn't write the exact same letters that he wrote in that day.  He would address the issues of our day, the same way he addressed the issues of the churches in his day.

There's some other things to consider about your situation with Your husband.  If I were in your shoes, and my husband told me not to work, if we had to go on wellfare, I would die.  I would hate it and I would die for sure out of sheer hating it.  But I would still do what he said in that case.  And I totally am against just doing anything anyone says just because they said it.  But it's not worth it to fight over if it becomes a fight.  But I don't know your husband.  I'm imagining up my own because I don't have one.  The one I'm imagining up is pretty smart.    And he loves the Lord.  And he's always wanting to do what is right.

So, I'm filling all the blanks with information that is inacurate.  I don't know all the details.  All I know is that there's something inside of us that have always paid our bills and paid what was expected of us, to find ourselves in a position to not be able to pay.  Only when we get to that point do we see the whole world in a different perspective.  And we might do a whole bunch of stuff to never get to that point.  Which would include working ourselves into the ground.  

Could it be that your husband loves you and he doesn't want you to work yourself into the ground.  The scriptures says husbands are supposed to take care of their wives like they take care of their own body.  Maybe he thinks you're working too much and because he has to look after you like he looks after himself, then maybe that's why he doesn't want you to work so much.  Don't work yourself into the ground and at the same time be at odds with your husband.  That's a lot of stress.  But you ARE his helper.    You can remind him that while he's looking out for you, you're helping him.

By all means, however, don't toss out wisdom when applying the scriptures.  I think the reason why the world thinks the scriptures don't apply today is because so many people try to apply the scriptures without wisdom.  Even in Solomon's day, they had fresh perspective of the law and prophets that talked to God, they still needed wisdom to apply the the scriptures.  Today, we need wisdom to apply the scriptures.  

Take care

[ollie]

Hi His_Child,

Obeying and submitting are not the same words.  Obey the commandments of the Lord, submit to your husband.    There's a Lord, He is King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, and I think that out ranks any "husband" status.    Keep in mind however, there's few things better in life than a love that gives you hope and strength.  Although, the ten commandments do not include, "Wives submit to your husbands" as some people make it out to be, the higher law of love says that husbands and wives should submit to each other.  In the garden of Eden, God created Eve to be Adam's helper.  Lots of people like to say, it says "helper" so therefore Adam was her boss.  Not so.  The Holy Spirit is also our helper and we aren't the boss of the Holy Spirit.  In addition, what Eve needed to HELP Adam with did not include a bunch of work because it was BEFORE the "by the sweat of thy brow thou shalt eat thy bread" curse.  So, in essense, it wasn't working for Adam or under Adam that Eve was created for.  There was no real work that needed helping with.  Adam was given charge over the animals, and Eve was created to be his healper.  Before the original sin, Eve was a co-leader because Adam didn't need a worker or a slave or someone to boss around.  Read those scriptures over and see if makes sense to you.

Still the sciptures says that husbands and wives should submit to each other because it's about love, not laws.  

I would like to point out that Paul wrote different letters to each of the churches.  He didn't write one standard letter, but each letter was addressed to a specific church.  This point of Paul writing different things to the different churchs, included with the example of Aninias and Saphira, who croaked over and died because they were hypocrites.  They wanted it to look like they'd given all that they had, when in actuality they held some back.  It was their right, BUT the point was they wanted people to THINK they gave all that they had.  They didn't.  Thus, they croaked over their hypocrasy.  The churches in that day, obviously, were composed of at least less hypocrits.  Obviously, the hypocrites in our churches aren't croaking over and dying like in the churches back in that day.  It is possible that ALL the men in the churches where Paul tells the wives to submit, those men were totally worthy of submission.  I disagree that ALL men are worthy of submission in the churches in our day.  I have a strong feeling if Paul was going to write a letter specifically to each and every church in our day, he wouldn't write the exact same letters that he wrote in that day.  He would address the issues of our day, the same way he addressed the issues of the churches in his day.

There's some other things to consider about your situation with Your husband.  If I were in your shoes, and my husband told me not to work, if we had to go on wellfare, I would die.  I would hate it and I would die for sure out of sheer hating it.  But I would still do what he said in that case.  And I totally am against just doing anything anyone says just because they said it.  But it's not worth it to fight over if it becomes a fight.  But I don't know your husband.  I'm imagining up my own because I don't have one.  The one I'm imagining up is pretty smart.    And he loves the Lord.  And he's always wanting to do what is right.

So, I'm filling all the blanks with information that is inacurate.  I don't know all the details.  All I know is that there's something inside of us that have always paid our bills and paid what was expected of us, to find ourselves in a position to not be able to pay.  Only when we get to that point do we see the whole world in a different perspective.  And we might do a whole bunch of stuff to never get to that point.  Which would include working ourselves into the ground.  

Could it be that your husband loves you and he doesn't want you to work yourself into the ground.  The scriptures says husbands are supposed to take care of their wives like they take care of their own body.  Maybe he thinks you're working too much and because he has to look after you like he looks after himself, then maybe that's why he doesn't want you to work so much.  Don't work yourself into the ground and at the same time be at odds with your husband.  That's a lot of stress.  But you ARE his helper.    You can remind him that while he's looking out for you, you're helping him.

By all means, however, don't toss out wisdom when applying the scriptures.  I think the reason why the world thinks the scriptures don't apply today is because so many people try to apply the scriptures without wisdom.  Even in Solomon's day, they had fresh perspective of the law and prophets that talked to God, they still needed wisdom to apply the the scriptures.  Today, we need wisdom to apply the scriptures.  

Take care

"Still the sciptures says that husbands and wives should submit to each other because it's about love, not laws."

Not only husbands and wives but all in Christ are to submit one to another.

  Ephesians 5:21.  Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
 22.  Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

 1 Peter 5:5.  Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Ollie

[Allinall]

Excellent Response, Allinall,

You officially have my permission to teach in church    Okay, VOTE.  I'll use the word VOTE.  You have my vote that you can teach in church.  The legalisits might get all excited about a woman giving a man to permission to teach in church and then they'd say maybe I had authority in church and then they'd say my middle name was Jezebel, I am sure.    Do you think women should vote in church?  Do you think women should vote at all?  Remember back in the day when women couldn't vote?  Does being able to vote in church mean you have some authority in church?  If you're voting whether a man can teach in church, does it mean you have some authority over whether or not that man can teach in church?

What does authority mean?

You didn't give me a scripture that was adequately convincing to me that from the Beginning, Adam was Eve's boss.  Adam's AND Eve's desire was toward the Lord.  I figured you were going to argue about Eve being Adam's helper, and that made him the boss of her.  But you didn't go there.  Had you, I was going to ask you IF when God sent us the Helper, the Holy Spirit, you would think that we would be the boss of the Holy Spirit because it is also a helper.  

Let me in case it's not evident, I'm not married, not dating.  There's no man now or in my immidiate future.  Christ is the head of the church, man is the head of his wife.  Man should take care of his wife the way he cares for his own body as Christ cares for the church.  Nobody HERE is arguing against that--to me it is a non-issue.  I don't think anyone is debating this thing.

I have another idea of grace.  You're either going to clarify my idea of grace or not.  It is nice to have someone to discuss these things with.  

God's role for the the day of rest is for people to rest on it.  And yet, the Lord of the day of rest healed on the day of rest.  Explain to my just why the Lord can break His own rules.

Thank you for your time and attention.  I enjoy hearing your well-thought out opinions.

Grace

Sorry so long in response.  I'm old.  I forget easily.  

Anywho...you said:

You officially have my permission to teach in church    Okay, VOTE.  I'll use the word VOTE.  You have my vote that you can teach in church.  The legalisits might get all excited about a woman giving a man to permission to teach in church and then they'd say maybe I had authority in church and then they'd say my middle name was Jezebel, I am sure.    Do you think women should vote in church?

I'm so pleased!    Anywho, most churches I've been apart of have had women voting on everything.  Only problem I have with that is that you don't see that modeled in the early New Testament church.  But I feel that may well be splitting hairs so I don't usually go there.

Do you think women should vote at all?  Remember back in the day when women couldn't vote?

No.  And no.  I'm not that old...I'M KIDDING!!! About the voting part, not the age...

Does being able to vote in church mean you have some authority in church?  If you're voting whether a man can teach in church, does it mean you have some authority over whether or not that man can teach in church?

See answer above concerning the vote.

What does authority mean?

There are many words used for "authority" in the New Testament.  In reference to the authority of the Apostles, Paul used the word exousia in 2 Corinthians 10:8 to describe their authority.  It simply means the power of choice, rule and right.  The word used for "head" in the reference of the husband being the head of the wife is kephale which means, supreme, chief, prominent, master, lord.

In regards to the woman not usurping the authority of a man, the word used is authenteo, which means one who acts on their own authority, excercises dominion over one.

You didn't give me a scripture that was adequately convincing to me that from the Beginning, Adam was Eve's boss.  Adam's AND Eve's desire was toward the Lord.  I figured you were going to argue about Eve being Adam's helper, and that made him the boss of her.  But you didn't go there.  Had you, I was going to ask you IF when God sent us the Helper, the Holy Spirit, you would think that we would be the boss of the Holy Spirit because it is also a helper.  

Nope.  Wouldn't go there.  It is important for men to remember that the woman was made for his help.  Eve was Adam's help meet for his needs.  That is, she was designed to help him.  I can see this quite clearly in my relationship with my wife.  I have a one track mind.  She can be on many tracks at once.  My track may be teaching our daughter about obedience, while her track, in line with mine, may see the need for loving in this teaching.  I miss this.  She doesn't.  Together, we get the teaching God expects, with the love He provides.  I couldn't do it alone.  I was never meant to.

I have another idea of grace.  You're either going to clarify my idea of grace or not.  It is nice to have someone to discuss these things with.  

God's role for the the day of rest is for people to rest on it.  And yet, the Lord of the day of rest healed on the day of rest.  Explain to my just why the Lord can break His own rules.

Because the point of the rest wasn't the rest, it was the reflection on God, and spending time resting in Him.  To them, they made it about a legalistic ( ) task.  Jesus proved the meaning went far deeper.  He broke no rules.  In fact, He kept them in the manner in which they were expected to be kept - perfectly.  

Soooo, what's your idea of grace?

[Allinall]

Allinall on a role?

Yup! Absolutely!

I thought folks were supposed to strive to be a blessing to others.

Allinall's been a blessing to me! If he hasn't been to you, maybe it's because he's not saying what you WANT to hear!  

Ruling and leading are entirely different spirits.  Leader of the household vs. Ruler of the household?  Is there not a clear distinction?

Finally! I think you're getting it!   I'm afraid you've been getting mixed-up on the distinction!  

As for all the other jabs, I'll just say..... Instead of looking to have people agree with you when what you say goes against Scripture; you might to say "Thank you" when they point out your errors.  

God's way works! I'm living proof! The problem with your examples earlier - about 'following' an ungodly husband - is that we should let the Lord lead us to a husband. The problems arise when we do it our way....

Thank you!  

[C C]

AllinAll,

Voting in church!    I have seen some churches, though, I'm not lucky enough to have them in my area, that wait on the Lord for guidence.  You should see our church meetings.  We always have a vote and rarely does  everyone agree on something.  Of course, I didn't go to the meetings for a long time, and when I started going, I'd have something to say about everything.  Just because I had a comment that needed saying   I don't go to the business meetings anymore because the church was there BEFORE I got there and it go along fine without my attending the business meetings.  

Let me ask you another question.  Do YOU ever notice the spirit of "The Curse" in any Christian couples you know?  Where the woman just thrives on being ruled over and never questions anything their husband says?  And if you say anything about it, they get down right nasty attitudes?  Taken to the extreme images of Charles Mansion come to mind.  Have you seen it?

How about the men that are dominitated by the princes of this world?  They thrive on dominating folks and beat their women into submission or to a pulp or to death whichever comes first.  Have you seen it?

What scriptures do you have to point out just why these spirits are ungodly?

[Allinall]

AllinAll,

Voting in church!    I have seen some churches, though, I'm not lucky enough to have them in my area, that wait on the Lord for guidence.  You should see our church meetings.  We always have a vote and rarely does  everyone agree on something.  Of course, I didn't go to the meetings for a long time, and when I started going, I'd have something to say about everything.  Just because I had a comment that needed saying   I don't go to the business meetings anymore because the church was there BEFORE I got there and it go along fine without my attending the business meetings.  

I personally think the whole vote thing is an application of Democratic philosophy to the New Testament Assembly.  Doesn't work.  But as for waiting for the Lord's guidance...part of that guidance is determined when the local body/assembly agrees on a course of action after prayer and fasting as the Spirit leads.  As for your partaking in the meetings...that's where many will disagree.  Personally, the assembly is neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female in God's eyes.  So there must be agreement between all members of that assembly within the structure of authority that God has designed.  How do you do that?  That's an entirely different thread altogether!  

Let me ask you another question.  Do YOU ever notice the spirit of "The Curse" in any Christian couples you know?  Where the woman just thrives on being ruled over and never questions anything their husband says?  And if you say anything about it, they get down right nasty attitudes?  Taken to the extreme images of Charles Mansion come to mind.  Have you seen it?

Not quite that extreme, but yes I've seen it.  I call it replacing the cultural norm for biblical truth.  Back in the '50's that was normal.  Nowadays we are obviously wrong in not following what was the norm, so now we must apply a previous norm as a biblical truth.  I've got problems with that philosophy.  As I have said before, my wife often questions what I say.  She's not commanded not to!  She's only commanded to submit to my leading in the matter, while I am commanded to love her.  Part of loving her, to me at least, is hearing what she thinks about the decision.

Some women will get nasty when questioned about this.  That is the weaker brother/sister that is acting upon what they believe.  We, are not to despise them, and they are not to judge us (Rom. 14).

How about the men that are dominitated by the princes of this world?  They thrive on dominating folks and beat their women into submission or to a pulp or to death whichever comes first.  Have you seen it?

What scriptures do you have to point out just why these spirits are ungodly?

Not in my local body of believers, but I've known folks that have had that.  Those men aren't obeying God's command through Paul to love their wives:

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.  In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.  For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body.  "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."  This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.  However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.


Ephesians 5:25-33

A husband is to love his wife sacrificially, as Christ 1)loved the church, and 2)gave Himself for it.  I think this is key.  As men, we are often ready to declare our undying willingness to die for our wives...but are we willing to live for them?  That is, Christ showed His love for the church in ministering to them, and ultimately, mostly in His dying for them.  As a husband, I am to love my wife in serving her, helping her reach her goals spiritually, seeing to it that she not only grows spiritually, but that she is able to do so, teaching her and learning her as well as from her, and treating her as a cherished, fragile vessel that means everything to me.

 

[Brother Love]

Should women be able to be pastors, preachers, priests etc?
What type of leadership roles should they have in the church?

How about at home?
Who should be in leadership at home?

Should women be able to be pastors, preachers. NO!
priests? No such thing today.  

Who should be in leadership at home? The husband\


Brother Love

<))><

[C C]

Discerning the Bible’s guidance on women and ministry closely parallels discerning its guidance on the issue of slavery. Our own Wesleyan-holiness forebears helped hammer out the approach to Scripture that gave Bible authority to anti-slavery advocates of the last century. It is no accident that old time Wesleyans who thought the Bible supported the abolition of slavery also led the way in reading the Bible in support of the ordination of women. Nor is any accident that old time Calvinists prominent in the pro-slavery camp also resisted in parallel arguments the "liberation" of women. The two arguments--over slavery and over women’s suffrage--were similar and closely tied together biblically.

The biblical challenge is two fold: 1) to interpret Bible texts accurately in their historical context, and 2) to determine which texts should be read in light of which (i.e., make sense of the Bible as a whole). Both were critical in the slavery debate, and both remain central in the "ordination of women" debate.

As for interpreting the Bible texts accurately in their historical contexts, both the pro-slavery and anti-slavery people tended to read their own positions into the text. On the one hand "The Curse of Ham," Genesis 9:18-25, did not really support the enslavement of black Africans. On the other, Paul did not abolish slavery nor imply its abolition in Ephesians 6:5-9.
The same problem of competent reading of Bible texts in their historical and literary contexts, faces persons seeking God’s will from Scripture regarding the ordination of women. The most vocal present voices against the ordination of women (who happen also to be Calvinist) would have one believe these texts in 1 Timothy and 1 Corinthians are straight-forward, easily understood verses. The problem, they claim, is not the texts, but a compromised church, unfaithful to the truth of Scripture and afraid to confront error--the same slander thrown against our abolitionist predecessors by the pro-slavery folks. The truth is 1 Timothy 2:11-15 and 1 Corinthians 14:33b-36 are full of difficulties. It is not easy at all to determine the apostle’s basic meaning in these texts or the actual problems he wanted to meet, let alone know how we should apply them. Recent evidence indicates that even these "plainest" of texts do not bear directly against ordination.

But even if 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 14 did expressly forbid the ordination of women (which they do not), the second problem we noted earlier remains. Which texts are to be read in light of which? What sense do we make of the Bible as a whole on this question? Do we read the entire Bible in light of these two problematic texts, or do we read these two texts in light of the rest of the Bible? Here again the way has already been forged by the anti-slavery people who founded one branch of our present denomination in 1843 (The Wesleyan Methodist Connection).

The abolitionists’ most powerful anti-slavery arguments from the Bible proved not to be the Bible’s statements about slavery itself, but rather other basic, irrefutable biblical claims. This larger Bible context led them to conclude that slavery was a grievous evil, an abomination to God, in spite of the fact that Moses had provided for it, and Saint Paul had assumed it. Thus, in his tract against the slave trade, John Wesley argued not from "slavery texts" but from the Bible’s teaching about the mercy and justice of God. Jonathan Blanchard, Wesleyan Methodist founding president of Wheaton College, argued against slavery on the basis of "one bloodism" --God had created of "one blood" all humans (Acts 17). Charles Finney argued against slavery on the basis of common human need (all are sinful). Others relied on Galatians 3:28 ("In Christ...no slave or free") and Luke 4:18 (Jesus’ mission of "release to the captives," and so on.

None of these persons were liberals; none of them rejected the wisdom of God or the authority of Scripture, as their pro-slavery opponents claimed. Rather, they understood that some Bible truths, by their very nature, must logically provide the context in which other specific instructions and claims in Scripture are read.

This very same task awaits persons who want to address the "women in ministry" question adequately! We must speak not only of one or two specific texts but must make sense of biblical revelation as a whole on this question. 1 Timothy 2 :11-15 and 1 Corinthians 14:33b-36 stand confronted by a tidal wave of other biblical texts, Pauline and otherwise, which fly in the face of prohibiting women full entry into Christian ministry (as B. T. Roberts, the founder of the Free Methodist Church, argued persuasively a century ago).

Our aim here is not actually to argue the point biblically but to show what the points to argue are--and have been for over a century! Here we underscore the fact that the Wesleyan Church’s ordination of women stands not only on solid biblical grounds but on a solid, historic approach to Scripture as well. We read Scripture on this question in ways hammered out over a century ago by the people who founded the Wesleyan Methodist Connection, the Pilgrim Holiness Church, the Salvation Army and other similar holiness streams.

No , the problem is not lack of biblical warrant, but lack of leadership and conviction. We have to take responsibility in local churches for calling and at district levels for appointing to leadership ministries the women whom God is gifting and calling for those ministries in the Wesleyan Church. And we must do it now.

[sincereheart]

"Anytime there is a particularly costly teaching in the Scripture that rebellious human hearts do not want to submit to, you will find it being attacked..."