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Should women be able to be pastors, preachers, priests etc?
What type of leadership roles should they have in the church?

How about at home?
Who should be in leadership at home?

Well....lotta questions, not many answers.

Here (http://www.john812.com/women.pdf") is a link to a pdf (too long to post here) of a study on women in ministry. Hopefully, it will answer some of your questions.

 I have  no  problem  with  women  in  leadership  roles.  I promote  gender  equality.  I  dont  support  mysogyny or  misandry.   I  would   not  want to work  under a  tyrant,  be it a  male or a  female.   In the  home,  a  partnership  of  sorts  is the best relationship. Mutual  respect,  understanding,   and cooperation  is key to a  good  relationship.  

Evangelist- sorry, I couldn't get to your link.

BlackmanX- care to give an explanation of what Paul was talking about when he said women should not be in leadership roles in the church or when he talked about male headship in the home?

http://www.john812.com/women.pdf (http://www.john812.com/women.pdf)
Had an extra quotation mark. Should work now.... :)

 :D

I read the link about women in Leadership roles.  I have no desire to fight against God and I get tired of fighting against man.  But I do disagree with the people that are hard hearted against having women in leadership roles.

I think women do just fine in leadership roles provided there's no worthy men in leadership roles.  If there are men in leadership roles that are worthy of being followed, then we can let them lead.  It is much easier to care for others if we don't have to worry about making lots of hard decisions.  But I think there's a very dangerous thing that happens if one part of the Bible gets taken to an extreme and another part gets ignored.  You can easily have lousy leaders teaching false doctrines and then telling women they have to submit.  Everyone will agree that there is some truth to the scripture that says, "wicked are those that put their trust in men."  There will be a judgment day and women as well as men will be accountable for their actions because in the kingdom of God there is neither male nor female.  

For the most part, I do believe that in the "Church" which is the body of Christ, that having women in leadership roles is entirely acceptable.  Because households are in the body of Christ.  Everyone that is a believer is in the body of Christ, and in every relationship that we have with anyone we always influence them in one way or another.

I also believe that there are conditions that are applied to roles within a household between husband and wife in that a wife should submit to her husband AS her husband submits to Christ.  Not just on anything and everything.

I find it dangerous to trust in men and scripture warns us not to.  We should trust in God.  But I also find it "restful and peaceful and a burden lifted" to be able to trust in humans who love us and also love God and are looking out for our best interest while we look out for the best interest of others.  Women do quite  well in ministering to people.  They are excellent ministers  But it is a dangerous world, always has been and always will be.  I totally believe that Paul was not permitting women doing certain things in church in some instances because remember, Christians were being murdered for their faith.  In protection of women, Paul may have stated those things.  It only makes sense that it was for women's best interest and protection because in practice women were in fact having leadership roles in Paul's time.  And the women were loud apparently and zealous and they could have easily been killed and there was a whole bunch of hostility.  Think about how many times Paul was stoned and beaten and imprisoned--think about those things and you'll have a better understanding of what Paul was talking about.  I don't think that he meant to undo the "neither male nor female" freedom in Christ that he had given to women.

Christ also is the one that began treating women with respect and dignity.  

I do have strong opinions about whether or not all those scriptures that tell women to "sit down and shut up and do as your told" scriptures may have been misinterpreted and possibly taken out of context.  I have been posting some things in another thread.  I'll copy them below.

"Anyway, I'm not claiming to be an expert on Greek.  I'm just claiming to know that some translations can be laughable if they are translated word per word.  Especially when the concept that develops out of the translation is laughable.  And even more especially when there's something to be gained by the mis-translation--then it's not so much laughable as much as possibly evil.

I'll just go with laughable.  If a person just went with the translation the way those scriptures translate then it would be boiled down to women must trust in men.  The Bible tells us that Wicked are those who trust in men.  Also, how can you explain the female prophets and the female judges of old if it was against God's will for women to teach.  And how do you explain away the female leaders of churches in Paul's day?  And then when you come to think about it, there are so many interpretations of what "church" actually is.  But if the "church" is the body of Christ, like I believe it to be, then the interpretation of those scriptures is saying that women can't be leaders in the body of Christ and women can't be teachers in the body of Christ.  That's laughable.  Hence, there is evidence that the interpretation is correct EVEN if it is word per word interpretation, the concept is incorrect based on the rest of the Bible."

I'm sure there's reasons why Paul said some of the things that he said, but I'm also sure there's reasons why they were translated the way they were translated.

Matthew 7
12  So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Jeremiah 17:5
This is what the LORD says: "Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the LORD .

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
 
Psalm 118:8
It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in man.
(Whole Chapter: Psalm 118 In context: Psalm 118:7-9)

Proverbs 29:25
Fear of man will prove to be a snare, but whoever trusts in the LORD is kept safe.

Isaiah 2:22
Stop trusting in man, who has but a breath in his nostrils. Of what account is he?

Anyway, the whole point is that we're told over and over in the Bible to put our trust in Our Lord.  Then if we practiced Paul's words the way that they are interpreted, what would happen to women is that they would be forced to take their eyes off of Jesus and focus them on men.  It would be another story if we knew our Lord, and then we knew our husband to love the Lord.  But living out Paul's words exactly the way most folks teach them these days and based on those interpretations, a women would never be able  to develp a relationship with the Lord enough to even be in a position to find a man that follows the Lord in order to submit to him.

How many millions of women are dealing with husbands as dorky as Nabal?


1 Samuel 25:3
His name was Nabal and his wife's name was Abigail. She was an intelligent and beautiful woman, but her husband, a Calebite, was surly and mean in his dealings.
While David was in the desert, he heard that Nabal was shearing sheep.
So he sent ten young men and said to them, "Go up to Nabal at Carmel and greet him in my name.
When David's men arrived, they gave Nabal this message in David's name. Then they waited.
Nabal answered David's servants, "Who is this David? Who is this son of Jesse? Many servants are breaking away from their masters these days.
One of the servants told Nabal's wife Abigail: "David sent messengers from the desert to give our master his greetings, but he hurled insults at them.
Then she told her servants, "Go on ahead; I'll follow you." But she did not tell her husband Nabal.
May my lord pay no attention to that wicked man Nabal. He is just like his name-his name is Fool, and folly goes with him. But as for me, your servant, I did not see the men my master sent.
"Now since the LORD has kept you, my master, from bloodshed and from avenging yourself with your own hands, as surely as the LORD lives and as you live, may your enemies and all who intend to harm my master be like Nabal.
Otherwise, as surely as the LORD , the God of Israel, lives, who has kept me from harming you, if you had not come quickly to meet me, not one male belonging to Nabal would have been left alive by daybreak."
When Abigail went to Nabal, he was in the house holding a banquet like that of a king. He was in high spirits and very drunk. So she told him nothing until daybreak.
Then in the morning, when Nabal was sober, his wife told him all these things, and his heart failed him and he became like a stone.
About ten days later, the LORD struck Nabal and he died.

 ;D.

and last but not least, if women are prohibited from teaching in the Body of Christ, all of us women on this chat are in big trouble, because if we've lead anyone to change their mind about something, that would make us a leader, and if someone learned anything from us, that would make us a teacher, and if the ones that learned or were lead by us are in the body of Christ, then heck we're leading and teaching in church SIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNN  oooooh!

Repent sinners.   8)

1 Corinthians 14:34 - "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law."

1 Corinthians 14:35 - "And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

The scriptures are sexes no doubt about it. As much as i believe the scripture that tells me Salvation is via the Lord . i believe the sexes ones also. God is wiser than man or woman I trust in Him.   In the churches, women teach other women. I know this does not 'fit' into todays world and this is just my view. John is the head of this house, yet we are a team. Reading Proverbs 31 the lady had "it going on" She was about real estate among other things. A baseball team needs 9 players on the field each works with the other. all are needed one is not better than the other just different.  ( please dont tell Bobby Bonds he is not better ;D)

1 Timothy 2:11 - "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection."

1 Timothy 2:12 - "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

Titus 2:3-4
The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
KJV

Colossians 3:18 - "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord."

Galatians 3
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

BlackmanX's explaination, or will any explaination do?

And:
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Romans 8:14.  

Reba,

Don't you think that the scripture that says basically, "I don't allow women to teach in church" and the scripture that says, "women should teach women in church"  
Which can be easily and happily concluded that obviously the first scripture isn't all encompasing of all women not teaching in all churches under any circumstances.

If women are teaching women in church, they're still teaching in church and not remaining silent DUH!!   then that's against Paul's rule about teaching in church which is clear indication that Paul's rule is not so all encompasing the way that it's made out to be.  And if it's not all encompasing the way its made out to be then just how narrow is the interpretation?  What really is the true interpretation??????

What really is the issue here is that women ARE allowed to teach in church or they are NOT allowed?  Clearly they are allowed because in another place of Scripture women ARE instructed to teach.  

What it really means is that the rule about women not teaching in church is NOT all ecompasing.

The principle of the matter is that God made men for the laws not the laws for men.  But that doesn't include women does it. . . .  ::)  at least according the the Pharasees of our day.  I would consider the spirit of the man that gets in an uproar about a woman teaching in church as well as consider the spirit of the woman teaching in church.

Does anyone recall the Prophetess Anna of the New Testiment who had served in the temple for 80 years or what not?  She was in the Temple and she prophesied and people learned her prophecy and essentially she taught in church.   ;D  

Remember Ladies, we're dealing with the male ego, Christian or unchristian.  When men get all in an uproar and start getting legalistic about things, that's when we know their own spirit is not in check.  And women know better then men about the male ego and how a man's head swells so just for that reason God does raise up Godly female leaders.

I sat around wondering for how long the writer of the letter in the link was posted above in another post--I wondered how long that writer had to mull over how to prove that the Prophet Debra wasn't a teacher and a leader.  He discounted it by saying it was in Civil matters only.  Well, then how does that writer discredit the Prophet Anna?  She lived and worked in the temple from the time that her husband passed away.  I suppose that was civil matters only too.  Or what other sort of discredit would the pharasees of our day when in comes to the issues of female leadership might use to discount that there have been in fact female leaders raised up by God Himself.

Remember how the Pharasees were always in an uproar about Jesus and what laws He seemed to be breaking?  Didn't Jesus teach us a thing or two about our actions being about our spirit and the intentions of our heart?

The men that have huge hang ups about women teaching in church probably have the same spirit as the Pharasees that had huge hang ups about Jesus healing on the Sabboth.

I do believe that in our God given roles in life women do have burden LIFTED of the responsibility to teach in church.  We also have the burden of the responsibility of being in leadership roles.  No one can condemn women for not getting a hold of the reins and leading a group even when a group is going to hell in a handbasket.  The men involved will be in big trouble on judgment day, the women wont.  The scriptures are clear we don't have to do take the responsibility to teach and lead.  But the principle of the matter is that God can use anyone He wants for whatever purpose He wants including using women in leadership roles.  It happens!!

In all honesty, I think America has a whole lot of big problems and I think it is because the leaders that we have that are men are slackers.  They really are.  I have yet to see ONE single pastor that isn't conforming the the mold that our united states has created for us.

Even my favorite pastor in the whole world has to hurry up and end the surmon on the Sunday's that there's football.  I have yet to see a man that is totally like Jesus in our culture.

If God happens to raise up a woman leader that is dedicated totally to God and God can really use her because He has complete control of her, and she is fully yeilded to Him, I would follow her.  I haven't seen her yet.  But it's the principle of the matter.  I haven't seen any men yet actually doing all that they can do.  Yes, men have their faith, but they still cling to the cares of this world with part of their heart, mind and strength.  I think part of their hang up is that they're so busy being concerned about getting the speck out of their brother's eye or sister's eye, that God can clean out their heart.  And I totally believe this is one of the issues that makes men such slackers.

Neo,

In Christianity there are neither male nor female, we're all supposed to be equal.  But it's almost like the human spirit doesn't want to embrace equality.  There's lots of Christians running around that would love to use Christianity to make themselves feel better about themselves.  Then they start getting out scriptures that point to women's roles of being submissive and quiet.  I think that they're taken out of context and were written in a day when you could get beheaded and beaten and imprisoned for mentioning Christ.  the principle of the matter is that god wasn't calling the women to those kinds of things for their own safety and security but for the safey and security of man AND women.  Imagine if you will, if Martin and Gracia Burnim--Imagine if Martin wasn't ready to die for Christ, and Gracia was off getting kidnapped by terrorists and Martin had to go save her???????????  The point is, women are supposed to wait around for the leading of their husband in matters such as these, but in EVERYTHING.  What if you are the wife of the Morman who teaches that the United States is a wicked and evil empire and then your husband tells you to go bomb buildings????????  All I'm saying is you can't be a big Pharasee.  Obviously even the the scripture that says "in EVERYTHING" is NOT all encompassing.  Back to Paul's day and when couples went preaching, in the best interest of their husbands, if a woman got herself into trouble for being a big loudmouth for Christ, then her husband would have to risk his life to save her, what if the husband wasn't ready for that?  The idea was for women to wait around for their husband to be ready to give his life up for Christ  The scriptures were more related to the idea that a person's life was pretty much in danger for teaching about Christ.  Paul didn't want the women to get ahead of their men in going to the grave for Christ.  These days, it's all taken out of context and its all about male ego and male dominance.  The scriptures aren't about that though.  

Peace

No.  St Paul said it in a particular context to a particular readership with particular issues.  The human author isn't just God's dictation machine.  The message that God wants us to draw from it can only be understood by stepping back and considering it in context, and in the light of the rest of scripture.

You are demanding that we read the bible in the way muslims read the Koran - as a book dictated by God.  Although a small number of rather extream Christians try and do that, it's not how the bible is presented nor how it has traditionally been understood.

Don't you think that the scripture that says basically, "I don't allow women to teach in church" and the scripture that says, "women should teach women in church

Isn't this in reference to the public gatherings or assemblies of the church and not to "in the church" per se. Is Paul telling the Corinthian church to obey a civil law of Corinth where women are not allowed to speak at public assemblies? If so, is it true, for us not of Corinth, to adhere to this admonishment?

So Paul's teachings are outdated?
Do we get to pick and choose which parts of the Bible still apply today?
BTW- Christians are still being murdered today for their beliefs.

ebia- anyone's explaination will do.

The purpose Paul intended to fulfill by saying that in his letter may be outdated, but that doesn't mean there isn't something God wishes us to learn from it.  The bible isn't an instruction manual, its an opportunity to learn about God, and one of the ways it does that is by the inclusion of these letter.  The original purpose of which has long since vanished, but they still have value because we can learn from them.

You assume he wants to.

But he chooses to communicate through stuff that has a context, because the object isn't to inform us about facts and lay down rules, but to teach us how to grow closer to him.

Hmmmmm...where to begin here.

How about...here...


The principle Paul is teaching here is order.  God does things decently and in order.  Not every prophet is to speak at once.  They are to speak so as to build up the assembly.  If one has a message that is more profitable for the assembly the other is to keep silent.  Paul then says women are not to speak in the assembly.  I know guys that feel they shouldn't sing, or even talk!  But that's a little out of context, isn't it?  Especially since Paul also spoke of one fellas daughters who prophesied in the church and did so favorably.  The speaking is instructing.  And for a woman to instruct a man...well, Paul deals with that as well.  It's not to take place as she is not to usurp his authority.  That does not mean that the man is to lord over her, or even that she has nothing valid to say.  She is to ask her husband.  Why? Because he has all of the answers?  No.  Because that is God's design.  She asks her husband who is her head.  He asks Jesus who is his Head.  

Is the man better than the woman then?  By no means!  There is neither male nor female in the assembly as far as God is concerned.  But there is order.  There is structure and the expectation of that structure being enacted.  The woman is not the lead.  The man is.  Problem is, men don't lead.  Women take up the slack, and are wrong.  So are the men.  But if a woman asks her non-leading husband a biblical question, what's he going to do?  In most cases, be flattered.  And to not look like a moron in front of his wife, study to answer her question.  Does she know the answer?  Remains to be seen.  

In my life, my wife asks me things from time to time.  Sometimes because she really doesn't know.  Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.  When I do, I'm able to build her up.  When I don't, we are able to build each other up as we learn.

Sometimes she does know, but follows the example given.  I.E., last night at our bible study, I was going off on a tangent another fellow started.  But I was missing the key verse that clarified everything.  She quietly asks me what that verse means then if my tangent was right.  She was right and I wasn't.  I pointed that out to everyone!  And the issue was solved, biblically in truth and in practice.  I would have had no problem with her simply saying so on her own, but her obedience to God's word was blinding to me.  It built me up, and those around us as well.

Just a thought...

My biggest problem with this discussion is that the same churches who don't believe in women as ministers are the same churches who have women teaching children sunday school.  If you are going to go by the scripture when it comes to ministering and teaching adults why not children?

For starters, it's hard to get men to step up into the role of leading the youth unless their wives encourage them.
Also, women are supposed to lead other women.

 ;D

You're never going to get me to agree that paul says I can't talk in church.  and you're never going to get me to agree that every word Paul says is law.  Paul was trying to get people into a closer relationship with the Lord.  

So, whenever people read Paul's words such as "Say Hi to Lodacia"--or some other person living in his day, does everyone who reads that have to stop all that they are doing and say "Hi" to Locacia who is already with the Lord and  dead to us?  Is there not something in the Bible that's against speaking to the dead?  Yes there is.  Should we all drop everything we're doing to say "Hi" to Lodacia????  Let's all have a big seyance or however it's spelled and call up the dead so we can say Hi and send our greetings to Paul's friends of his day!  

Whoever says ALL of Paul's words apply to all of today is blind and groveling in the dark.

All I can say is that people that believe that all of Paul's words are law and we must submit to them are stunted in their spiritual growth and blind, missing the whole point that Paul was trying to make.  

"The only genuine motivation in the Christian life that will consistently sustain a godly lifestyle is love.  Any other motivation will eventually fail.  If contemporary Christians spent as much time developing loving intimacy with Christ as is spent in defining proper Christian behavior, the world would be a different place.  It isn't without basis that the unsaved world sees Christianity as a religion with a particular system of behavior.  Many Christians make that their focus too.  They want to know God's commandments in every area of life so to keep them.   . . .any approach to Christian living that focuses on keeping rules as a means of experienceing vitory or growing spiritually is LEGALISM.  Legalism is a system in which a person seeks to gain God's acceptance or blessing by what he does.  People who live this way are called LEGALISTS.   . . .Is your concept of the Christian life one which suggests that Gdo's primary concern with you is your behavior?  If so, you are a card-carrying member of the LEGALIST LODGE."

Therefore, when you open your Bible to study, focus on the words that Christ spoke to the Pharasees.  Don't focus on the words that Christ spoke to the sinners.

Ha-ha-ha!!!  :D ;D :D

CC - that's a real hoot.  I've never heard that particular argument!  I think you just made me smile for the rest of the day.

Yours in Christ,
JN

 ;D

Thanks!

Glad to make someone's day.  

Nobody believes me when I say that some people's ideas of the way to interpret the Bible are laughable.  :)  You've made my day because you've proved my point.

Thanks!

I've thrown out my Legalist Lodge member card and now am under grace.  

In Paul's words,

"You know very well, my brothers (for I am speaking to those well acquainted with the subject), that the Law can only exercise authority over a man so long as he is alove.  A married women, for example, is bound by law to her husband so long as he is alive.  But if he dies, then his legal claim over here disappears.  This means that, if she whould give herself to another man while her husband is alive, she incures the stigma of adultery.  But if, after her husband's death, she does exactly the same thing, no one could call her an adulteress, for the legal hold over her has been dissolved by her husband's death . . .the death of Christ on the cross has made you "dead" to the claims of the law, and you are free to give yourselves in marragage so to speak to another, the one who was raised from the dead that you may be productive for God."  Romans 7:1-4 PHILLIPS

"The Christian is dead to the law!  is what Paul teaches us.  And yet, now everyone wants to make everyone one of Pauls words NEW LAWS.  We have died to Christ and made alive to live legalist lives under the words of Paul.  It's sheer stupidity and it's laughable!"

"A person who focuses on keeping rules will experience contstant frustration.  The purpose of the law is to show that a right relationship to God is not the result to conforming to external regulations.  Now we live on a new law which isnot based on external demands, but rather on internal desire."  Yet there are hundres of people coming in the name of Christ, who for Freedom set us free--making up all kind of NEW external demands--Paul's Words are the new external demands that they dump on us.

But that's not all.  We now have all kinds of churches that claim to be the only true church and they've made up hundreds of external demands newer and more difficult to keep than than the demands that they've given us from the words of Paul!

I don't know whether to  laugh or cry and sometimes I just want to give up hope.  "the core of Christian life doesn't revolve around DOING, but is grounded in BEING.  The Christian life is the life of Chirst.  Or focus is a person, NOT the performance of religious activities.  

Paul's words again:

Let me ask you this one question:  Did you receive the [Holy] Spirit as the result of obeing the Law and doing its works, or was it by hearing [the message of the Gospel] and believing [it]? [Was it from observing a law of rituals or from a message of faith?]  Are YOU so foolish and so senseless and so silly?  Having begun [your new life spiritually] with the [Holy] Spirit, are you now reaching perfection [by dependence] on the flesh?  Galations 3:2-3

yep, lots of men out there keeping thier wives quiet in church, I don't know how many marriages have been broken up by it, but it's NOT the principle of the matter.  We are legalists and we will focus NOT on love but on the New Law which has been given to us by Paul the apostle.   :P  Who came to teach about Christ, but in so many of the century's legalist's efforts the effect of making Paul's words law do distract us from Christ, we now live by Pauls words as law.  We should change our names from Christian to some other name.

Peace

 

APPLAUDS! Well said!

Posted previously here:
http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=11;action=display;threadid=4210 (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=11;action=display;threadid=4210)

The Jezebel Profile

When the name Jezebel comes to mind, most of us see the painted face of a seductively dressed woman gazing into the eyes of a man who lacks good sense. The Bible portrays Jezebel in a different light.

Revelation 2:20 says that Jezebel “calleth herself a prophetess,” and men received her as a teacher. This was given as a warning to the church. The one whom you have received as a spirit filled teacher comes to you in the great tradition of Jezebel. We have observed that many wives have stalled their half of the marriage by assuming the spiritual headship of the home. They would teach their husbands. But consider 1 Cor. 14:34-35, “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”

I went back to I Kings to see what the Bible had to say about this woman Jezebel. The first thing I noticed was that Jezebel was more religious than her husband. She was spiritually intense. The Bible says in 1 Cor 11:3, “But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.” As a woman, our place is under our husband, especially in the spiritual realm. Regardless of our circumstances, when we take the spiritual lead, we have stepped out from under our head. We have tried to rearrange God’s designated place for us. We are no longer in God’s will.

The second thing I observed was that Ahab was emotionally volatile—unstable. Is your husband prone to retreat? Is he bitter, angry, or depressed? When a woman takes the lead, she is playing the masculine role. Unless her husband fights her for supremacy, he must assume second place. And men who are forced into spiritual subjection to their wives tend to be angry and retreat like Ahab.

The third thing I noticed was that she used his emotional stress to endear herself to him—strange way of lording over the husband. Jezebel manipulated and accused an innocent man, then had him murdered so that Ahab might have the vineyard he wanted. Ahab kept his face to the wall and let her do her dark deeds. Today, if a woman is willing to play her husband’s role in directing the family, he will lose his natural drive to bear responsibility.

In the dominant role, a woman quickly becomes emotionally and physically exhausted. God made us the weaker vessels. If you are in this exhausted state, then chances are you’re carrying a load not meant for you. It is not for you to press your husband to do his duty to be spiritual. You are to live joyfully in the context he provides.

The fourth thing that jumped out at me was that Ahab could easily be manipulated by his wife to suit her purposes. Jezebel used him to set up images as aids to worship under her own prophets and to kill God’s prophets. Often, a man becomes involved in the Church, not because God has called him or because it is in his heart to do so, but because he is trying to please his wife and at least LOOK spiritual. When a husband steps into a spiritual role at his wife’s beckoning, he becomes vulnerable to her guidance in that role. This is against nature, and often brings conflict in the family and in the church.

Ahab chose not to notice when his wife worked behind the scenes. Many men turn their heads when they see their wives stepping out of their God-given role. These men would rather not have to deal with the stone-cold anger they would receive from their wives if they offered any resistance. Have you been there, done that?

Jezebel knew that she was not the rightful head, so she invoked her husband’s name to give her word authority. Did you ever say, “Oh, my husband will not let me do that,” when you knew in truth he really would not care? It is a way to maintain control and stop those who would question you. When a woman does this, she stops any ministry God has to her.

Jezebel was deeply concerned about spiritual matters and took steps to help promote her spiritual leaders. In the process, she provoked her husband to destroy those in spiritual authority she did not like. Have you ever influenced your husband to think evil of those in authority because you did not like something about them? When a woman comes to this place she might as well sign her name “Jezebel.”

God has a plan for women. He revealed his will in many verses in clear, concise commands. He gives a revealing picture of what he abhors in a woman by introducing us to Jezebel, then reaffirming in the New Testament just what it was about her character that he found so despicable.

He reveals his will in a positive note in the stories of the women whom he honored. The story of Ruth tells of a young girl who had known tragedy, extreme poverty, and hard menial work, yet she maintained a positive, thankful, and submissive attitude. God blessed Ruth because her own personal success and happiness were not the driving forces in her life.

Esther is the story of a girl who lost all of her family and was taken by force to become the wife of an older, divorced, heathen man. She was put (by her husband’s decree) in danger of losing her own life as well as the lives of all her people. Yet, she overcame her circumstances and her fear in order to honor her husband. The Scripture teaches that when her husband heard her honest appeal, delivered with gracious dignity, she won his heart, and he turned to save her people. God used Esther because God’s will was more important to her than her own fulfillment.

...cont`d

Posted previously here:
http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=11;action=display;threadid=4210 (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=11;action=display;threadid=4210)
cont`d...
Proverbs 31 defines the virtuous woman. She is NOT a mousy, voiceless prude. She is confident, hard working, creative, and resourceful. She uses her time wisely, and contributes to the family income. Her first virtue is that the heart of her husband is safe with her. It says that she will do him good and not evil all the days of her life. That is, he can trust her with his thoughts and feelings, never fearing that she might use the private knowledge she has of him to hurt him in any way. Some men maintain a distance from their wives because if they reveal themselves, their wives will use it against them when they are out of sorts.

If this passage had been written from our modern perspective, it would have extolled her for having a “quiet time,” prayer time, fellowship time, and would have projected an image of a prayer warrior, teacher, or counselor. In all the Scriptural profiles of righteous women, including Proverbs 31, none of those concepts are even mentioned. A Proverbs 31 woman is busy helping her husband become successful. She is too busy being productive to spend time being his conscience. In our culture, we have lost a clear understanding of what constitutes a virtuous woman. We have accepted the modern concept of the “spiritual” woman, circulating in the realm of religious power, and have forgotten that God does not see them in this same “glorious” light. What we think is spiritual, God labels “Jezebel.” “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD (Isa 55:8).”

In order to become a righteous woman, reaping the benefits of having our man adore us, we must follow God’s principles of womanhood and totally reject the Jezebel tendency.

God laid down a few simple rules that must be followed because they are consistent with our feminine nature and the nature of men. It was Ruth’s virtuous and humble, yet feminine, bold example that caused Boaz to love and admire her. It was Esther’s submission to this principle that won the King’s love and appreciation for her as a woman and as his queen. These women showed themselves womanly and lovable in the midst of extreme circumstances. God honored them with favor from the men in their lives.

Dominance and control are always masculine. It is a hormonal thing. It is the way God designed male nature. It is important for a woman to understand that she has to be feminine (devoid of dominance and control) in order for her man to view her as his exact counterpart and thus respond to her protectively, with love and gentleness.

God designed us, so he knows what our husbands need in order to function properly in their roles as men who cherish the woman in their life. By nature, men need honor (this includes not questioning their decisions). They need respect (treated as if they are wise). They need reverence (daily admired as a man who is accomplishing great things). They need to be accepted for who and what they are, just like they are. Men need to feel they are in command and doing a good job.

An important part of man is a God-given, natural instinct to bring his wife pleasure. If a woman is to be greatly treasured she will choose to find pleasure in the way the man presents himself and his care. All these traits are basic masculine needs. We were created as a helpmeet to the man we married, fulfilling who and what he is. This is God’s will for us as women. When we as women obey God by responding to the needs of our husband, we are worshipping and honoring God. “Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man (1 Cor 11:9).”

God created you to fulfill your husband’s basic masculine needs. Only in that role will you find peace and cause your man to respond to you in loving adoration. This role of submission is totally feminine. It is the exact counterpart for his masculine needs. “And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. (Gen 2:18).”

A woman who criticizes her husband for watching too much TV no longer honors him. When a woman tries to control areas of their life together because she thinks she is right, she is usurping authority over him, and lording over him. A depressed, discontented woman, who feels that her husband does not meet her needs, is dishonoring God.

Hurt feelings are a way to control. Silence and emotional retreat are ugly, destructive ways to control both your husband and your children. Anger, sickness, exhaustion, and even fear are all used to control those you care about. Some women control their husband by having an intense spiritual hunger. Jezebel comes in many disguises.

There are many various and subtle ways to control and direct your husband. One of the ways to take control is to tell your husband that you want him to be the spiritual leader in the home and then let him know that you are waiting to follow. You can lead from behind just by clearing your throat at the right moment. Many nice homeschooling moms are the spiritual leaders in their homes. They play the masculine role spiritually. How this must grieve the Holy Spirit of God. Often the excuse is that we cannot serve two masters, and since our husband is carnal, we have to take the higher ground. Like Eve, we are so deceived. “And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression (1 Tim 2:14).”

A man cannot cherish a strong woman who has expressed her displeasure with him and is holding out until he fulfills her ideal. You say he should have Christ’s love. Is that what you want? Do you want your husband to have to seek supernatural power just to find a way to love you? What most men cherish in their wives is the memory when love was fun and free, with no demands—the time when she smiled at him with a sweet, girlish, “I think you are wonderful” look. She was so feminine then, so much the woman. It was a time when he wanted to hold her just because she was his, a time when he wanted to give her everything. A vague memory keeps him hoping. He is as disappointed in love as you are, maybe more. He is just as lonely. He just fills up his loneliness doing things that will distract him from the reality of the emptiness he knows is there but does not know how to fix. His helpmeet is not pleased with him. He is a loser.

The very first command God gave to a woman was, “Thy desire shall be unto thy husband and he shall rule over thee (Gen. 3:16).” Is your desire toward your husband? Do you desire him as a man? Do you live to please him? Does he rule over you? This is God’s will.

Being a Jezebel is an active role—actively controlling, actively doing our own thing. Being a Ruth or an Esther is just as active. It is a decision we make hundreds of times each day as we choose to joyfully honor our husbands.

God’s reward is without measure. Men are like clay in the hands of a woman whom they can trust with their hearts. A man, lost or saved, responds to a woman who honors him. When a woman looks to her husband with a face that is full of laughter and delight, he will look forward to being with her. If her voice speaks words of thanksgiving and joyful appreciation of him, he will want to listen to her. If her actions are full of service and creativity, and if she has goodwill towards him, he will be drawn to her as a bee is to honey. This kind of lady is altogether feminine. She is what God created and gave to Adam.

Deep in our heart we all want the same thing. We all want to be loved and cherished. We all cry out with our utmost being to be treasured in the heart of our husbands. It is the greatest honor on earth to know your husband is thrilled that you are his woman. It passes all of earth’s blessings to feel his gaze upon you and know that you are his greatest gift, his most prized possession, his best friend, his favorite pastime, his only chum, and his delight as a lover. It is a great joy to know that he is actually proud you are his. It is not remembering birthdays, opening the door of a car, or other silly customs that we crave, it is the knowledge that he is totally taken with us. We want him to want us. We simply want to be loved. It is God’s perfect will for our husbands to love us. It is God’s perfect will for us to honor, obey and reverence our husbands. God’s way works. If what you are doing this year has not worked, why not go God’s way?

1 Co 11:7 “For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.”

1 Co 11:8 “For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.”

1 Co 11:9 “Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.”

--article written by Debi Pearl

Candice Cavalier, With all due respect, as a single woman, should you really be advising married woman on what their role should be in a marriage? :-X

 ;D

As a single woman I'm advising anyone in the chatroom to not be LEGALISTS!

My point is about legalism as in:  "nobody in the New Testiment was more commited to studying the Bible than the Pharisees.  They could quote long passages from memory.  They knew the content of their Bible because they poured over it daily.  But Jesus had a word to say about their kind of Bible study, "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.  But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life

Jesus was pointing out that their approach to the Bible was nothing more than an academic discipline.  They KNEW their Bible, but there was no life in their empty religious routines.

Their approach to the Bible was no different than the approach some Christians today take toward the activity of their Christian life.  There are people who attend church, preach sermons, teach Bible classes, sing, pray, tithe, and do a dozen other things that they believe God expects without on ounce of spiritual life in what they are doing.  That may be church ministry, but can it really be called Christian Ministry? What separates Christian ministry from empty religious activity?  LIFE!  Much activity takes place in the modern church that has no real life in it."

And since the last time I mentioned it You supposed I was talking to about marriage or to Married women and you asked whether I would be advising married women, I will quote Paul again:  

"You know very well, my borthers (for I am speaking to those well acquained with the subject), that the Law can only exercise authority over a man so long as he is alive.  A married woman, for example, is bound by law to her husband so long as he is alive.  But if he dies, then his legal claim over her disappears.  This means that if she would give herself to another man while her husband is alive, she incures the stigma of adultery, but if, after her husband's death, she does exactly the same thing, no one could call her an adulteress, for the legal hold over her has been dissolved by her husband's death. . .the death of Christ on the cross has made you "dead" to the claims of the law, and you are free to give yourselves in marriage so to speak, to another, the one who was raised from the dead, that you may be productive for God. (7:1-4)

I'm not talking about marriage.  I'm talking about Christ's death on the cross freed us from the demands of the law, the same way a man dying frees his wife from the demands of marriage.  We are no longer bound by the law.  We are  Free in Christ.  Free in Christ to talk in church.  Christ's freedom from the law includes the laws that aren't really laws that people say are laws because Paul said them.  

My point is, Paul was trying to get folks to walk closer to Christ.  He wasn't creating a new set of commandments.  My other point was, although there is wide ranges of speculation on Why Paul said women shouldn't teach in church--Paul also said we weren't slaves to the old Testament Law.  

Are you saying that the words of Paul are the new Law on which we are to focus ourselves?  The words of Paul are more powerful than the 10 commandments?  The words of Paul this new binding authority by which we should enslave ourselves to as law AFTER Christ set us FREE, we now have new laws in which to enslave ourselves?

Legalists want to bind us to the law again.

"The Christian is DEAD to the LAW!!  Our old self was subject to the law . . .the person we used to be is DEAD.  The life we have now is the life of Christ.  We now live by a new law called the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus."

What legalists want to do is make us yoked and bound to stuff they made up and say they are laws.  They're not LAWS and we're not legalists.  I mean some of you all may be thinking that you've made yourself righteous by your actions.  If you have made yourself righteous then you are self-righteous.  But if Christ has made you righteous, then you're not going to get more righteous by claiming that Paul's words are law and that women can't speak in church.  Christ healed on the Sabboth, and women teach on the sabboth.  Christ, the Lord of the Sabboth is the leader of the church and our focus is on Him.  If we abide in Christ then the Lord of the Sabboth, Who is also the Lord of the other laws can free you from the legalism that binds you.

Or lets have a big communion with the dead and send greetings to Paul's friends, because Paul's words are law and we can't be Christians unless we live by them.   ;D

It is for Freedom that Christ has set me free.  

By the way, I have NEVER spoken during the worship service, but during Bible study, we all speak freely about what we think about the scriptures.  We have a leader of the Bible study, and he likes everyone to give their insights and examples.  I know the Apostle Paul wouldn't be offended and neither is Christ.  As a matter of fact, the Bible Study leader's wife is part of the Bible study--and I've been a part of this Bible study since 1997--there doesn't seem to be an issue when I say something about the Bible study during the Bible study.  AND during the worship service we're going to be giving our testimony of how we came to know Christ.  I don't think Paul or Christ will have a problem with that either.  The only folks that would have a problem with that are the folks still bound by the law.  But those wouldn't be Christians would they be.  I wonder why people bound by the law, are studying Paul's words and missing the part about the Freedom in Christ?

Peace

Why should we bother with any of Paul's words since he seemed to be little more than a sexist?
Either that or he had very poor language skills and simply was not able to communicate the word of God.
Why not just get rid of Romans through Philemon?

Remember Ladies, we're dealing with the male ego, Christian or unchristian.  When men get all in an uproar and start getting legalistic about things, that's when we know their own spirit is not in check.  And women know better then men about the male ego and how a man's head swells so just for that reason God does raise up Godly female leaders.
Wow. However did you learn so much about men?  ::)

In Christianity there are neither male nor female, we're all supposed to be equal.  But it's almost like the human spirit doesn't want to embrace equality.  There's lots of Christians running around that would love to use Christianity to make themselves feel better about themselves.  Then they start getting out scriptures that point to women's roles of being submissive and quiet.  I think that they're taken out of context....
Sounds more like you're trying to use Scripture to feel better about yourself~  ::) What the Bible says isn't really what it means? It was only for that time? While you throw out Paul's writings, do you also dismiss Proverbs 31?

Wow. Sounds like a whole lot of control and pride issues. And a lot of what you think versus what the Bible says. Following what you think would lead to a whole lot of confusion and chaos which is exactly opposite of what Scripture lays out. In Christ we ARE equal. In a job or a marriage we are assigned certain duties. Why constantly try to circumvent that? Maybe a third option is just to be self-employed. ::)

Questions a Wife Can Ask to Tear Her House Down --Debi Pearl
Proverbs 14:1 "Every wise woman buildeth her house; but the foolish plucketh it down with her hands."

He wonders about his reasons for working there, even though it is a good job. He remembers he has had opportunity to witness. Yet? He grows unsure of his own leading.

3. Honey, I need to ask you something very important that really tears me up inside, does this  activity not grieve your spirit?

The Spirit of God had been prompting him concerning this, but he was trying not to hear; almost he brought the subject up  himself last evening, but now she is disappointed with him. He suspects he is not spiritual, but somehow the whole thing makes him angry. He feels pushed.

4. Why don’t you ever want to go with me to _____________?

He doesn’t feel comfortable around those people, they seem so artificial, and their kids are whiny jerks. The man talks in a quiet humble way which grates on his nerves, it just seem so “put on,” but his wife doesn’t see it that way. He guesses he must be carnal. Somehow he just doesn’t care anymore.

5. Before we were married you read your Bible; at least you said you did, why don’t you ever  read and teach me and the children?

He has a vague memory of enjoying reading and relating to how scared Moses was of the job God gave him, but somewhere he just lost interest. He supposes he is backslidden.

6. Why don’t you spend more time with our sons?

The thrill of having boys has faded. The few times he has disciplined them, his wife talked with him later for being harsh. Maybe he was. He likes being with the men better; anyway, they are mama’s boys.  Not that they are sissies, they just have this close, talky, relationship with mama. He feels separated. He’s not that type. He can see the accusation in the  boys’ eyes; it is reflected from their mother’s eyes. Same questioning look,  which provokes in him the same feelings of condemnation he gets from being  around her. He thinks, “I am a real jerk. I wonder if I’m even saved.”

7. Do you ever think of just loving me in the spiritual way instead of the carnal? I am so  hungry for some deep spiritual understanding and communication.

Something deep inside him is so dissatisfied, so frustrated that she responds only when she feels right about it. It speaks nothing of his manhood. His soul is sick all the way to its core. He falls asleep dreaming of the woman he met in the store today. God, help his filthy soul.

7. Sweetheart, why won’t you have devotions with us? We want you to lead us in prayer and help us grow spiritual. The Bible says you are our spiritual leader, why, why will you not lead?

He laughs inside himself, “Are you kidding? I can’t do that. I would feel like a total hypocrite. I can’t teach them about something I don’t know. I’m out of here.” He leaves, or works, or watches TV all the same; it is his escape.

8. Why do you think the pastor said that about Charles? Don’t you think it was cruel?  Sometimes I wonder if we should go to Church somewhere else.

Angry bile seethes in him as he listens to her tell the story for the fourth time. He silently contemplates, “The pastor’s a jerk. He’s not any better than anyone else. I don’t know what makes him think he’s so righteous.”

9. Poor Charles, it is so sad to see what the preacher’s mean words have done to that family.  Don’t you think we should do something about it, like call and let them know we love them and don’t agree with the pastor, because I am so hurt at the pastor myself?

Frustrated at his own failures, and bitterness at others has run its course and is now bearing fruit as he silently surmises: “All those self-religious people make me sick. I don’t care what they do, but they will not do it to me.”

10. Honey, its church time. You need to get dressed. What! are you not going? But you always go to Church? Do you think you should let a silly thing like that business with Charles, keep you from worship? What about the boys? You’ll be a bad influence on them, don’t you care?

11. Jane, I want you to know that without your close, loving friendship, which I turn to everyday, I would never be able to get through this loveless marriage. He is so cold and distant. He doesn’t care about the children. I don’t know how I could have been so deceived into thinking he was a fine Christian man when I married him. Will you ask the girls to pray for him this week at our women’s meeting?

Proverbs 14:1 “Every wise woman buildeth her house; but the foolish plucketh it down with her hands.”

"It is not a man’s responsibility to police women who would be teachers or church leaders. It is a free country and we allow most anything, but it is the responsibility of Christian men to never sit and listen to a woman minister in the church. Women can speak on a variety of subjects outside the church service; they can run a business, be president of a company or a country. They can teach on health, child training, or any other subject, but God does not permit them to take spiritual authority over men or to teach the Bible to men. That is God’s view. There are other views. Take your pick."


http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/index.php?id=25&backPID=55&tt_news=35 (http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/index.php?id=25&backPID=55&tt_news=35)

Sin sear heart,

Jezebel's big sin was having the kind of Authority over man that Paul is refering to when he used the word Authority--She threatened Elisha's life!  That word authority at the time that Paul used it was control over LIFE & DEATH.  Men shouldn't sit and church and fear for their life!

Elisha ran from her.  Remember?

In your writing however, you blame Jezebel's actions are what caused Ahab to act like an idiot.  Honey, listen.  Ahab was an idiot before Jezebel came along.  So are many men.  But if you take Adams stance, you'll say, "it was that woman!  It was that woman that YOU gave to me that tempted me."  Adam blames God and the woman.  It was NONE of his own fault.  It's wise to not make men do anything or even give them an inkling that they're doing what you said, because if something goes wrong, it will be ALLLLLLL the your fault.  The men wont hold themselves accountable and they wont confess or repent as long as there's a woman to blame.  As long as there's a woman to blame, they'll maintain that it was a woman's fault.  As you know, Paul's words do have wisdom in them.  But it's not really women that are at fault that Paul points out that God insists that we submit to men.  God insists that we submit to them and it probably has a whole lot to do with their tendency to blame stuff on women.  I never said there was no wisdom in Paul's words.  All I'm saying is that getting legalistic is missing the point.  

And the other thing that I'm saying is that Paul's words are are not held higher than the highest commandment.

If you ask Jesus, what the most important commandment is, do you think His answer will be, "that you keep all Paul's words as law, especially the part about women and them keeping silent in church?"  Well, He wont say that, and you wont say that but your spirit testifies to what you wont say.  You think that legalism is the key way to live out God's love.

I just jump for joy when people talk about Jezebel.  You know why?  Because really, there ARE NOT many other women that caused the entire Isreal to sin.  When someone wants to search the scriptures for a bad example of a woman that messed things up, they find Jezebel and Eve.  Not too many others.  t.  The only woman people can really think of as far as women leading people astray, you get Eve and Jezebel.  That's a pretty good track record for women NOT leading people astray.

Let me ask you a question.  Is Jeroaboam the Son of Nebat Who caused Isreal to sin, male or female?  How about all the other kings that lead Isreal astray, we're talkin' Kings here.  Were they male or female?  Now, hopefully you get a clue about how males are perfectly able to lead people to sin.  I guess you're in denial about that.  You think men don't cause people to sin.

1 Kings 16:26
He walked in all the ways of Jeroboam son of Nebat and in his sin, which he had caused Israel to commit, so that they provoked the LORD , the God of Israel, to anger by their worthless idols.
(Whole Chapter: 1 Kings 16 In context: 1 Kings 16:25-27)

1 Kings 16:31
He not only considered it trivial to commit the sins of Jeroboam son of Nebat, but he also married Jezebel daughter of Ethbaal king of the Sidonians, and began to serve Baal and worship him.
(Whole Chapter: 1 Kings 16 In context: 1 Kings 16:30-32)

1 Kings 21:22
I will make your house like that of Jeroboam son of Nebat and that of Baasha son of Ahijah, because you have provoked me to anger and have caused Israel to sin.'
(Whole Chapter: 1 Kings 21 In context: 1 Kings 21:21-23)

1 Kings 22:52
He did evil in the eyes of the LORD , because he walked in the ways of his father and mother and in the ways of Jeroboam son of Nebat, who caused Israel to sin.
(Whole Chapter: 1 Kings 22 In context: 1 Kings 22:51-53)

2 Kings 3:3
Nevertheless he clung to the sins of Jeroboam son of Nebat, which he had caused Israel to commit; he did not turn away from them.
(Whole Chapter: 2 Kings 3 In context: 2 Kings 3:2-4)

2 Kings 10:29
However, he did not turn away from the sins of Jeroboam son of Nebat, which he had caused Israel to commit-the worship of the golden calves at Bethel and Dan.
(Whole Chapter: 2 Kings 10 In context: 2 Kings 10:28-30)

2 Kings 13:2
He did evil in the eyes of the LORD by following the sins of Jeroboam son of Nebat, which he had caused Israel to commit, and he did not turn away from them.
(Whole Chapter: 2 Kings 13 In context: 2 Kings 13:1-3)

2 Kings 13:11
He did evil in the eyes of the LORD and did not turn away from any of the sins of Jeroboam son of Nebat, which he had caused Israel to commit; he continued in them.
(Whole Chapter: 2 Kings 13 In context: 2 Kings 13:10-12)

2 Kings 14:24
He did evil in the eyes of the LORD and did not turn away from any of the sins of Jeroboam son of Nebat, which he had caused Israel to commit.
(Whole Chapter: 2 Kings 14 In context: 2 Kings 14:23-25)

2 Kings 15:9
He did evil in the eyes of the LORD , as his fathers had done. He did not turn away from the sins of Jeroboam son of Nebat, which he had caused Israel to commit.
(Whole Chapter: 2 Kings 15 In context: 2 Kings 15:8-10)

2 Kings 15:18
He did evil in the eyes of the LORD . During his entire reign he did not turn away from the sins of Jeroboam son of Nebat, which he had caused Israel to commit.
(Whole Chapter: 2 Kings 15 In context: 2 Kings 15:17-19)

2 Kings 15:24
Pekahiah did evil in the eyes of the LORD . He did not turn away from the sins of Jeroboam son of Nebat, which he had caused Israel to commit.
(Whole Chapter: 2 Kings 15 In context: 2 Kings 15:23-25)

2 Kings 15:28
He did evil in the eyes of the LORD . He did not turn away from the sins of Jeroboam son of Nebat, which he had caused Israel to commit.
(Whole Chapter: 2 Kings 15 In context: 2 Kings 15:27-29)

2 Kings 17:21
When he tore Israel away from the house of David, they made Jeroboam son of Nebat their king. Jeroboam enticed Israel away from following the LORD and caused them to commit a great sin.
(Whole Chapter: 2 Kings 17 In context: 2 Kings 17:20-22)

2 Kings 23:15
Even the altar at Bethel, the high place made by Jeroboam son of Nebat, who had caused Israel to sin-even that altar and high place he demolished. He burned the high place and ground it to powder, and burned the Asherah pole also.
(Whole Chapter: 2 Kings 23 In context: 2 Kings 23:14-16)

Free in Christ to speak in Church

Sincereheart,

 ;D
I might also add, about Adam . . .he didn't need no snake to tempt him to blame someone, he came up with the blaming on HIS OWN.  And did you notice who got the bigger a-s chewing?  It was Adam, and do you know why?  It's only when we're sorry for our sin that we find forgiveness, not when we blame someone for our sin.   ;D

It just cracks me up the way that some women are so conditioned to think that men are not utterly flawed.  

You think that YOUR behavior is going to make or break your husband--it is only the Lord and the Holy Spirit's work in a man's heart-- but that's another subject.  

 ;D

Sincereheart,

I'm reading over more of your post.  I think you're giving yourself and women too much credit and POWER over men.  In your words above about how a women tears her house down, you're saying this woman has all this power over this man.  It's her fault that he's not doing the Lord's work.  In essence, you're TELLING WOMEN to use power over men.

If you were sincere in your heart about women not having power over men, you would know to NOT even try to posses any power over a man.

I'll tell you what, I have over 20 brothers.  Woohoo!  That's a lot.  And I will tell you what else--THEY KNOWWW, when they are being manipulated.  I hate it when Christian women give other Christian women Minipulation techniques on how to get men to do stuff.  It doesn't matter HOW you slice it!!  You're saying, "the way to get your man to do this or that or that other thing . . ."  That's not submission.  

Long before I gave any validity to the Bible or any of Paul's words, I found out that any and ALL systems that manipulate, trick, work in such a way, say in such a way, do in such a way, act in such a way, behave in such a way so that man will do this or that--ALL of it is in vain.  Because what we really want is a man's HEART.  We want his very heart.  We don't want his behavior.  At least, I don't want a man's behavior.  I'm not saying in a spouse, I mean any man.  The only thing of value is what's in his heart.  And the only person that can change a man's heart is God through love.  You can get your man to behave in such a way, but only as long as he's within your range of vision and hearing.  Wait 'till you're gone, then see what he does.  He'll do stuff purposely if he was controlled by you, he'll do stuff purposely to prove that you don't controll him, albeit, he might only do it when you're not around.

I found out that any and ALL systems that manipulate, trick,

work in such a way,

say in such a way,

do in such a way,

act in such a way,

behave in such a way so that man will do this or that--ALL of it is bad marriage counsel.  Because men know when they are being manipulated.  Even if Paul didn't say a darn thing in the whole entire Bible about submission I WOULD still swear by it.  What matters is that its a true fact God wants men to do the right thing because its in their heart.  You know what, it's not in a whole lot of men's hearts to take out the trash.  So, take it out yourself.

The truth is in a man's heart is not in it, no behavior is good enough, so why try to manipulate his behavior.  A wise woman does all these things for her home, she doesn't try to figure out how to manipulate her husband into doing things for her home.

Anyway, I'm not offering marriage counsel, I'm just saying that manipulation tactics are the same thing is not submitting and behavior strategies are the same thing as not submitting--either way you're still trying to get your man to do the things that YOU see fit, which is not submitting.

Peace

Response to Sincereheart's comments:

My quote:  "Remember Ladies, we're dealing with the male ego, Christian or unchristian.  When men get all in an uproar and start getting legalistic about things, that's when we know their own spirit is not in check.  And women know better then men about the male ego and how a man's head swells so just for that reason God does raise up Godly female leaders."

Your smart answer: "Wow. However did you learn so much about men? "

My smart answer: "20 brothers.  You'd think I'd figure out a thing or two by now.

My quote:  "In Christianity there are neither male nor female, we're all supposed to be equal.  But it's almost like the human spirit doesn't want to embrace equality.  There's lots of Christians running around that would love to use Christianity to make themselves feel better about themselves.  Then they start getting out scriptures that point to women's roles of being submissive and quiet.  I think that they're taken out of context...."

Your response: "Sounds more like you're trying to use Scripture to feel better about yourself~   What the Bible says isn't really what it means? It was only for that time? While you throw out Paul's writings, do you also dismiss Proverbs 31?"

My response:  In God I am complete.  Even if I'm dumb and rebellious, God still loves me.  :)  But I'm neither dumb nor rebellious, I'm just not groveling in darkness bound by legalism because I know my identity in Christ, the Truth that sets us Free.  I don't dismiss Paul's writings, I'm getting to the principle of the matter of Paul's writings.  Where as you are hung up on his exact words and phrases, I'm focused on point he was trying to make.  Paul was trying to make a point.  apparently, some have missed it.

Your quote:  "Wow. Sounds like a whole lot of control and pride issues."

Yes there is a whole lot of control and pride issues.  I'm saying that men have them and you've fallen into the trap of them by missing Paul's point.

Your  quote:  "And a lot of what you think versus what the Bible says."  

The Bible has to be taken as a whole and it is an instrument by which you learn about God.  Not a rule book to live out Pharisees' fantasies of living out every rule and missing that Christ that sets you free.

Your quote:  "Following what you think would lead to a whole lot of confusion and chaos which is exactly opposite of what Scripture lays out."  Are you saying that freedom in Christ causes confusion.  ?

Your quote: "In Christ we ARE equal."

Now you're talking

Your quote: "In a job or a marriage we are assigned certain duties. Why constantly try to circumvent that? Maybe a third option is just to be self-employed."

You supposed I'm trying to circumvent it. But really, it's because I refuse to be legalistic about things.

I AM self-employed.  I'm an independent contractor.   ;D  

I realize you may not comprehend this so let me try and explain this in such a way that you might understand.... Being a sister and being a wife are different. I don't care if you have 100 brothers - blood, foster, or adopted.


I guess you missed the part where the source was quoted.... ::)

It's not about legalism and it's not about manipulation. I'm sorry you don't understand that.


The fruit is rotten and I can smell it from here.

You may want to seriously consider your OPINIONS on marriage at least until you've experienced it. God's way works. Yours are just more of the worldly ideals.

 ;D

It's your remarks that got me on a tangeant.  I'm sorry, I can tell now that you're not debating anymore, you're taking it personally.  Don't take it personally.  I don't even know you.  You shouldn't, at least in my opinion feel bad about anything I say.  Don't feel bad.

What makes me think you feel bad is that you're saying I shouldn't say anything until I'm married.  And MY impression is that you're taking a stab  . . .there were a few others that I thought were stabs.

But what I interpreted as a stab that makes me think you're upset is that you keep pointing out that I'm single--as if I'm so unhappy about it.  I'm DIVORCED.  And I wake up every morning praising God that I'm divorced.  Actually, I got separated in 1995.  And when I found Christ, then I had someone to thank that I'm not with my husband anymore.  It requires praise.  You don't know how happy you are until you've experienced true misery.  

Anyway, that's neither here nor there.   :) ;) :D ;D  I know that you're upset and I don't want you to be upset.  There's no reason to be upset.  None.  It's not even you my rant is directed at.  Not you personally.  It's the whole world that weighs people down with burdens.  At least in Christianity we could overlook each other when we don't reach the intended goal of perfection.  I like to rant and argue and then I hurt people's feelings, it's sometimes not worth the arguement.

There's no sense in arguing if your feelings are going to get hurt.  

Actually, its for your own freedom that I was arguing with you.  Now, suppose your husband went mad and he told you to steal a car.  Now, you would have it at the back of your mind that men can lead you into sin and that submitting to him in everything is conditional on whether he's submitting to Christ--you might save yourself prison time.  And if whether or not he's submitting to Christ becomes an issue, there's probably already other sins greater than not submitting involved.  It's a matter of love and trust and walking with Christ.  It's not a matter of following an instruction booklet.

Peace

Adam and Eve were both punished for their own sins (and not the sins of the other).
They both played the blame game.
Satan tempted Eve probably because he knew that she would be the easier target.
Adam, as the head of Eve, should have not given into her. He let both of them down when he let her have the power to sway him.


hmm... I don't think anyone on this forum said that.  


As a wife I know that I can sway my husband's decisions. When he fulfills his duties as head of house, things go great for us. When he fails, disaster results.
As a Christian wife, I have learned that the power of prayer is amazing and also that our family is better off letting God sway him.

 ;D

I have no clue about marriage.  My own husbands only goals in life were to get more money and buy more stuff to impress more people.  His goals in life were to impress people with possessions.  I wasn't a Christian, but those weren't my goals.  I decided I had enough of his greed and I moved on.

Personally, in life, in the real world and in this day and age, the mass majority of men have goals that don't revolve around Christ.  Some Christians instead of being Salt and Light in the world are huddled in Christian basements and secret Christian hideouts, I'm sure never experience the real world, never met a selfish greedy man in their whole life, I am sure.  

As women in Christ and under grace, I will consistently, profess that legalism in this submission issue is unwise.  I don't say I know everything about marriage, but I do know quite a bit about legalism.

Legalism is when you've got your mind on rules and your heart off of Christ, who is the One we're supposed to be following.

Of course, there's always the danger that someone will in their selfish motives say that their mind is on Christ when they don't want to cooperate or submit, and there's always the danger that men that want their way, though it may be wrong, insist on submission.

The scriptures says, "HUSBANDS SUBMIT TO YOUR WIVES"

Which to me says that there's some kind of team work that's supposed to be happening in marriage.  It's not a one way street.

Anyway, none of my insistence is directly related to marriage.

My issue of women in leadership roles is about GRACE.  

Clearly, in the past and to this day evil men will abound.  They will.  It happens.  Clearly, in the past God has raised up Female leaders and in His Mighty Hand He may do it again.  It will be the legalists that will attack her.  And like the Pharisees they'll be fighting against God.  People that say that God cannot raise up a female leader are legalists.  That's my whole point.

Grace

Why thank you!

This would be class A example of why women aren't biblically to have leadership in Christ's assembly.  Namely, because the focus is unbiblical.  How?  Lemme see...


I find Paul's teaching on this very thing quite interesting.  You see, he says that the woman isn't to usurp authority over the man because the woman, not the man, was deceived.  In other words, she was not able to discern between Godly truth and Satan's lies.  But Adam didn't get chewed more because he wasn't sorry enough.  You see when Eve sinned, her punishment was pain in child bearing.  When Adam sinned, eternal damnation came upon all mankind.  Why?  Because Adam failed to be the leader God had called him to be.  He followed Eve's lead - Eve, who had been deceived.  

Now.  Here's a kicker for the guys.  Adam, was not deceived.  Great for him right?  Riiiiiight.  Rather than being deceived, Adam willingly chose to disbelieve and disobey God concerning God's command.  Adam had the facts and the proper discernment thereof.  He simply chose to disregard them.  Hence, his punishment was far greater and affected not only him, but Eve and the rest of us as well.

Adam and Eve both blameshifted.  Both sinned.  But God laid the blame for the sin on Adam's shoulders alone.  He does the same in families Candice.  One day I will stand before my God and answer for my wife's actions, and the actions of both of my daughters.  They are accountable for their own sins, but I will be accountable for all.  My wife, will answer for her sins alone.  Not mine or our daughters.  Hers.  Don't be so ready to take on the responsibilities that God has laid on the man.


You've never met my wife.  She knows my flaws, and often reminds me of them!   :D  Nevertheless, she follows God's will for her in our marriage, and sets an example for so many in our church that it doesn't go unnoticed.


My answer?  YES.[/b][/u]  Consider:


Peter sure thought so.  And I'll stick with him anyday.   :)

Just a thought here Candice.  I'm not arguing with you to make myself seem great, or to pump up a male's ego.  God has given me, as a husband and even more so as a father, a great responsibility.  I don't see myself as better.  I see myself as having much required of the much I have been given.

AllinAll,

My point here isn't as much about women in leadership roles, in any particular place, but Legalism vs. Grace.

So, you've missed my point.  At least, since you aren't arguing about my point, then I'll supposed you've missed my point.

BUT FIRST!  :)  I must defend my position about Adam's blaming.  Here is the exact text:

11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"
12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me-she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

Adam could have answered "Yes" to God's question.  But he didn't.  Instead he says, "The woman you put here with me-she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."  As IF he needed no repentance.

How is it unbliblical that I, as a woman, would look at that example and find out that it's probably a GOOD idea not to go around getting man to do something, because if it's WRONG, when God asks him about it, he might blame the woman??????  Are you not supposed to learn lessons from the Bible.

What's so unbiblical about that?

(I know that the Holy  Spirit talks to men's hearts, and the Holy Spirit will lead them in the right direction.  There's a big difference between a woman focusing on her own behavior because it's pleasing to God, and a woman focusing her own behavior because she's manipulating man.  I'm against manipulation tactics that are designed to manipulate people.  The negative way of getting men's behavior to change.)

I might add, :)  And you can use this against me if you want; Did you notice how much Eve's response resembles Adams?  Do you think she was following his example?

Now, an unbiblical principle you threw forth?  Allinal, a man, teaching an unbiblical principle--why some men shouldn't teach in church???  No where from the beginning of the Bible until after the eating of the Apple did God make Adam the leader and Eve the follower.  No where.  At least I've read it over and over and I don't see it.  

If you find it and post it, I will stand corrected.

And after that, God didn't make Adam the leader and Eve the follower.  I might add, that the curse was that Adam would be her desire, what kind of curse is that?

And that man would rule over her.  That's part of the curse.  Are curses, usually God's ordained plan from the beginning.  

Wouldn't you say that having a man rule over you is a curse?  The Bible says its a curse.  But if a man is your desire, then there's no harm in pleasing him is there?  My pleasure and my desire are more in order.  Bossing people around is an entirely different topic then isn't it?

Well, I hope you answer because I can't wait to hear what you say.

Allinall, don't you get tired of people arguing to be right or wrong?  I'm not arguing to be right or wrong.  I actually like to discuss these things.  Like in a discussion.  I don't want to argue.

Grace!

Candace- how is the wife submitting to her husband considered legalism?

*MORE APPLAUSE* All in all, you're on a roll, Allinall! :D

It's your remarks that got me on a tangeant.
Ah, so I MADE you do it? Back to the Garden.... ;)

you're taking it personally.  Don't take it personally.
 ::) Only when the remarks made are personal. ::)

Now which of those is not personal?  ::)


I don't even know you.
That is truer than you will ever know.

You shouldn't, at least in my opinion feel bad about anything I say.  Don't feel bad.
You didn't make me feel bad. You ended any dialogue where I would seriously consider anything you had to say.

you keep pointing out that I'm single--as if I'm so unhappy about it.
I had no idea whether you were happy or unhappy to be single. But the mere fact that you ARE single - or even add to that that you're happily divorced ::)- says even more that you definitely don't need to be advising Christian women on ANY aspects of marriage.

There's no sense in arguing if your feelings are going to get hurt.
There's no sense arguing with anyone who puts their opinion above God's Word. Though where you got the idea that my feelings are hurt is beyond me. Again, you don't know me.

It's not a matter of following an instruction booklet.
No it's not. It should come naturally. But for those who need the instructions, they are explicitly stated so there SHOULD be no misunderstanding.  ::)

Actually, its for your own freedom that I was arguing with you.
Thanks, but no thanks.  ::) I am married to a wonderful, godly man who loves the Lord. I am cherished and loved and there is no doubt that my husband loves me MORE than he loves himself but LESS than he loves the Lord. He would willingly lay down his life for me. It took me years to accept that. It took me about the same amount of time to realize that God loves me even more than that. What, exactly, do you think I need freedom from?  ::)


Ephesians 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

1 Peter 3:
Wives and Husbands
1 Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2 when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3 Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. 4 Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. 5 For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, 6 like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.
7 Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

1 Corinthians 7:
16 How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?  

Ephesians 5:
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient.
22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church-- 30 for we are members of his body. 31 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." 32 This is a profound mystery--but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Colossians 3:
18 Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.
20 Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord.
21 Fathers, do not embitter your children, or they will become discouraged.
22 Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. 23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. 25 Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and there is no favoritism.

Proverbs 12:4
A wife of noble character is her husband's crown, but a disgraceful wife is like decay in his bones.
Proverbs 31:11
Her husband has full confidence in her and lacks nothing of value.
Proverbs 21:9
Better to live on a corner of the roof than share a house with a quarrelsome wife.
Proverbs 21:19
Better to live in a desert than with a quarrelsome and ill-tempered wife.
Proverbs 27:15
A quarrelsome wife is like a constant dripping on a rainy day;

Genesis 3:17
To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.

;D for the "Lodacia", "Locacia" section of this reply.
What a funny lesson to use about freedom from law. To show that the things Paul wrote are not all law.

However Paul did say this, "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord."
1 Corinthians 14:37.

Ollie

Candice:

Why don't you just finish the thought by surmising that those verses aren't really Scripture, but were simply added by male chauvinists who wanted to put women in their place?

You posted a lot of verbiage, but you could just as easily have made one statement and that would have sufficed: "I don't believe the Bible".  

Otherwise it would not be "I do have strong opinions" but instead "What saith the LORD?"

For those who want the Truth, read the Bible and BELIEVE IT, whether it suits your opinions or not. It is God's Word.

Candice,

You said:


Isn't as much about...I did get your point, however I think you may be missing the point you're hammering the most.   :)  I agree with the legalism vs. grace concept, which I will address after I touch on a few other things.

For example:


Yup!  He blameshifted instead of accepting responsibility.  However, who did Adam blame?


Adam's reasoning wasn't that it was the woman's fault!  He reasoned that it was God's fault for having given him the woman in the first place!    :D  He blamed the woman for giving him the fruit, but he blamed God for giving him the woman to give him the fruit.  And legitimately, don't we all do this very thing?


Because the example set wasn't for the woman to try and do anything short of simply obeying God in the role He has given her.  The example in that passage is for the man.  The fault in the passage was the man's.  Adam failed to lead, and faulted God primarily and Eve secondarily for his failure.  Yes.  You are supposed to learn the lessons God gives in His word.  And yes, there are applications from passages that God will touch each heart individually with (i.e. your understanding of that passage). Just make sure the lessons learned from the passage are the lessons taught in the passage.   :)


I agree!  You do right to please God, not to get a man to do what you want!  And what does God say about your right behavior?  That it will have an affect on the wrong behavior of a man (husbands in context).  The key is that you aren't manipulating the man to do or to get what you want.  You are doing what God says and thereby setting an example that he won't miss, and can follow in doing what God wants.


Absolutely!  Adam took the cherished weaker vessel and pawned off HIS responsibilities therein.  What happened?  The weaker vessel broke under the unnecessary pressure.  What spilled out...was what else Adam mixed in.


Lemme see... ;D


Ah.  But that was Old Testament Law that has no bound on today...


Old Testament example of New Testament truth, put forth as an example, not to disregard, but to follow.  The verses prior speak of a wife submitting to her husband, and Sarah's honor she bestowed upon Abraham was, contextually, in accordance with the inner adornment she valued and allowed her to biblically respond to her husband.  Now.  Does that mean women should call their husbands lord?  ABSOLUTELY!!!  *Ducks the incoming punch from his wife*  OkokkokokokoK!!!!  That was Sarah's honoring factor.  But at the heart of it all was her submission.  Not obedience.  Submission  I think that's key too.  Women aren't called to have no opinion and to simply obey their husbands.  They're called to submit their opinions to the leadership of their husbands.

Take my wife for example again.  Everytime we come to a point of making a decision I consult her.  God has given her a great mind and discernment.  I'd be a fool not to ask her what she's thinking.  And each and everytime after she gives me what she's thinking about the decision, she says, "...but it's your decision."  Submission.  Sometimes I take her idea and go that way.  Sometimes I don't, and she follows willingly.  I don't brow beat.  A wise man once told me that I will only lead as far as my wife will follow... :)  But I digress.  More proof...


Adam was formed first.  By chance?  Did God have a plan and then decide He needed to improve it?   ;D  Don't answer that one in the flesh ladies.  No.  God had planned this order.  And the order that God spells out in the New Testament, He repeatedly uses the Old to exemplify.  No anti-biblical sentiment here.  Yes, in the assembly there is neither male nor female.  We are equal in God's eyes.  But there are roles God has given each gender.  It's much like the Trinity.  God the Father is equal to God the Son.  God the Holy Spirit is equal to God the Father.  Yet God the Father is the Head, the Son does the will of the Father and the Spirit the will of Them Both.


Well, let's think about this curse thing for a minute...


The KJV translates the word "manage" as "rule."  The concept is continued in the following verses for the requirements for a deacon.  This tells me that the "rule" or management aspect is still around.  From the passages I have given already, the concept of the man having the leadership role of the family is, has been, and always will be God's will for the family.  :)


I agree!  People argue all of the time over Calvinism, or music, or other things that have little to do with living day by day in faith in Christ.  But I'm not arguing to be seen as right.  I'm teaching so that you can get it right.  I know that sounds real bad, but it's truth.  There are many who have been burned in the past by their relationships and let that be their guide.  When they see posts doubting the structure of God's plan for the family, which is untrue, they are bolstered in their rebellion.  It is error.  You contradict error with truth.  Speaking the truth in love...we build up.

That's what I'm trying to do.

Grace to you too!   :)

Allinall on a role?

He still hasn't pointed out where BEFORE the eating of the fruit God told Adam he was the boss of Eve.

After the Eating of the Fruit incident, THE CURSE was that Adam would be the boss of Eve.

So, then how many husbands are graciously accepting the task of being the instrument of God's curse?   ;D

I thought folks were supposed to strive to be a blessing to others.  

It's the principle of the matter.  Or do principles not matter?

Ruling and leading are entirely different spirits.  Leader of the household vs. Ruler of the household?  Is there not a clear distinction?

I can FEEL the Baracudas.  Man-eating Jesus fish with sharp teeth.  Can't wait to impose the law on me.  Ah yes, the true Spirit of Christ.   :P  By your fruits you shall know them.

If Christianity is about forgiveness and compassion on people that aren't perfect, as was Christ, then we should have compassion on each other.

My only wish is that folks wouldn't take personal what I write.  It's not personal.  There's nothing personal about it.

Sincereheart, I like to break up words, as in Sin can sear your heart--is that an insult? . . .no, but God delivered the folks from the Wicked city of Sodam and Gomorrah because sin was making their heart sad, and there are numerous references in the bible to the blessings to the people who's hearts are grieved by sin.

It's not like I said a person a heart that is quick to see sin instead of overlooking it, Sin Seer Heart.  

All the Sin Seer hearts raise your hands, for by which measure you judge so shall you be judged.  I'm not afraid of your harsh Judgements because there is one true judge, and he wont judge me as harshly as humans will.  

Thanks for the encouraging and uplifting environment Fellow Christians.  The fellowship is wonderful.  I feel so uplifted and encouraged here.  I'm so happy to be known as a Christian.  It's so nice to be loved and accepted by my peers.  It's so wonderul to discuss the Biblical principles without being attacked.  

Jesus is my Redeemer and if He were here, He'd ask that you not throw so many stones.  The Bible tells about Jesus not letting people throw stones.

Peace

CONTINUED...

Now, for that legalism thingy I mentioned touching on.  I agree!  People want to live lives that can be measured by what they don't do.  "I don't go to movies."  "I don't go to restaurants that have bars in them."  "I don't listen to CCM."  "I don't have a television in my house."  "MY wife doesn't wear pants.  She only wears ankle length dresses."  Are any of these things inherantly wrong?  No.  But do they make the believer inherantly right?  No.  For some, that may be the principles by which they live and good for them.  But there are no verses that say "Thou shalt not go to movies" or any of these other examples.  People looking for what they aren't to do, and what they are to do make God a TaskMaster.  Does He have expectations of us?  Yup.  Does He discipline us if we fail to meet them?  Yup.  But why?

He does so to bring us to a better understanding of His grace.  Candice, just what is God's grace?

Some say, and rightly so, that grace is getting what we do not deserve.  But I think it is so[/b] much more than that.  The grace of God is the opportunity to know Him.

But do you know what the fulcrum upon which the understanding of Legalism and Grace rests is?  OBEDIENCE[/b].  Obedience is the door by which God, through the power of His Spirit and the incorporation of His Word changes us into the image of His Son.

How one views God's commands is dependent upon their maturity in Christ.  To me, "All things are lawful unto me."  Sin is still sin, but I'm not condemned by my sin.  I'm disciplined from it so that I obey, rather than disobey my God.  And in my obedience I'm transformed into a Christ-likeness I'll never achieve on my own.  Yet to another, "Thou shalt not go to movies."  How do we deal with these situations biblically?


How does the stronger deal with the weaker?  By not despising them in their weakness.  By considering whether their actions build up, or tear down the weaker brother and amending such practices in context.

How does the weaker deal with the stronger?  By not judging others by our weaknesses.  "I don't do this, so if you do, you must be wrong!"

Legalism is a nasty thing, but a misunderstanding of the Grace of God can be even nastier.   :)

Excellent Response, Allinall,

You officially have my permission to teach in church   ;D  Okay, VOTE.  I'll use the word VOTE.  You have my vote that you can teach in church.  The legalisits might get all excited about a woman giving a man to permission to teach in church and then they'd say maybe I had authority in church and then they'd say my middle name was Jezebel, I am sure.   ;D  Do you think women should vote in church?  Do you think women should vote at all?  Remember back in the day when women couldn't vote?  Does being able to vote in church mean you have some authority in church?  If you're voting whether a man can teach in church, does it mean you have some authority over whether or not that man can teach in church?

What does authority mean?

You didn't give me a scripture that was adequately convincing to me that from the Beginning, Adam was Eve's boss.  Adam's AND Eve's desire was toward the Lord.  I figured you were going to argue about Eve being Adam's helper, and that made him the boss of her.  But you didn't go there.  Had you, I was going to ask you IF when God sent us the Helper, the Holy Spirit, you would think that we would be the boss of the Holy Spirit because it is also a helper.  

Let me in case it's not evident, I'm not married, not dating.  There's no man now or in my immidiate future.  Christ is the head of the church, man is the head of his wife.  Man should take care of his wife the way he cares for his own body as Christ cares for the church.  Nobody HERE is arguing against that--to me it is a non-issue.  I don't think anyone is debating this thing.

I have another idea of grace.  You're either going to clarify my idea of grace or not.  It is nice to have someone to discuss these things with.  

God's role for the the day of rest is for people to rest on it.  And yet, the Lord of the day of rest healed on the day of rest.  Explain to my just why the Lord can break His own rules.

Thank you for your time and attention.  I enjoy hearing your well-thought out opinions.

Grace

Allinall on a role?

Yup! Absolutely!

I thought folks were supposed to strive to be a blessing to others.

Allinall's been a blessing to me! If he hasn't been to you, maybe it's because he's not saying what you WANT to hear!  ;)

Ruling and leading are entirely different spirits.  Leader of the household vs. Ruler of the household?  Is there not a clear distinction?

Finally! I think you're getting it!  ;D I'm afraid you've been getting mixed-up on the distinction!  ;)

As for all the other jabs, I'll just say..... Instead of looking to have people agree with you when what you say goes against Scripture; you might to say "Thank you" when they point out your errors.  ;D

God's way works! I'm living proof! The problem with your examples earlier - about 'following' an ungodly husband - is that we should let the Lord lead us to a husband. The problems arise when we do it our way....

What happens if we marry the man God has for us and down the road that man stops being a Godly leader in the home?

I saw this earlier and wanted to wait and prayerfully answer you. :)

Some thoughts.....
We are our husband's helper not his keeper. Therefore, you can't control him but you can control you. By that; I mean that you can control your own attitudes, actions, etc.

The least, and most, you can do is pray. Pray for a better attitude, outlook, heart, whatever the problem is you're having with dealing with the situation.

Pray for your husband. Pray that God will work on his heart, pray that God will guide him to be the spiritual leader in your home. Pray that God opens your eyes so that you can see your husband as God sees him.

Start your day with prayer to give you the strength to get through each day. No worries about tomorrow; just strength for that day ("give us this day our *spiritual* daily bread").

Remember that when your husband is most unloveable is when he most needs to be loved. Remember why you married him. Remember how you knew he was the one God had for you! Then think about the situation now and see if you can find why God put you together. Was it for just a time as this? When you're husband is most down? When he would need for you to be strong? Did he know that any other woman might nag or belittle or berate and that you were just the one that wouldn't? Did He know that this would be a strengthening of your relationship with Him? God can handle all your frustrations and anger and fear and resentment. Take it to Him!

When these times pass, will your husband look back and KNOW that his wife will stand by him through anything - because man, those were hard times and he learned to trust her? Will he remember tough times and smile because he had a wife that loved and respected him till he got back on his feet?

Turn it over to God and LEAVE it there! Stay in His Word! Read Proverbs 31. Read it again. Re-read it.

Interesting that you should mention Proverbs 31.
When my husband was laid off from his job he suffered much depression.
He was the only one who couldn't see that he was sick.
He had no interest in finding another job.
He turned down jobs all the while telling me that the Lord would provide.
Against my husband's wishes, I went to work.
I prayed about it and felt it was the right thing to do. The Proverbs 31 woman kept coming to my mind. She sees what needs to be done and she does it.
During the time my husband was laid off he was not showing any interest in leading our family. I had to do that and I honestly feel the woman in Proverbs 31 would have done the same.

My husband started a new job about 2 weeks ago. The difference in him is night and day.
He is not at all fond of his new job, but he feels much better about himself and he is able to lead our family better.

When he was suffering, he couldn't do it so I had to.

She worked, too..... ;)

16 She considers a field and buys it;
out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.
24 She makes linen garments and sells them,
and supplies the merchants with sashes.


My husband started a new job about 2 weeks ago. The difference in him is night and day.

That's wonderful!  :D

Yes, she did work.
However I took a job outside the home against my husband's wishes.
If it were up to him, we'd be collecting welfare.
He saw nothing against two able bodied adults collecting welfare.
I wanted to teach our children a better work ethic than that.
My husband hates the idea of me working outside the home, but he now sees how it was necessary and is still necessary for me to hold down a job.
See, I was married once before and my ex-husband has custody of 2 of our 3 children. I have to pay child support to him.
My husband consistantly told me that he thought the children should be living with me and how he felt I got treated unfairly so he felt that I shouldn't have to pay the child support.
Now, I not only have to pay current child support, I have to pay back child support as well.
I got away from the victim mentality and found that I don't mind paying child support. They are my children and I love them dearly. I will give them every thing they need and some of the things they want.
I searched the Scriptures and did a lot of praying.
I kept coming back to the words of Jesus when He says to render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's.
My husband still doesn't agree with my decision to work, but he understands a little better why I am going to continue working until that debt is paid off.
It also really bothered me that my husband wasn't too concerned about the fact that not paying child support is a felony.
My husband would say that if it came down that I might go to jail, we'd find the best lawyers to get me out and the judge would see that I was being unfairly treated.
I totally support child support laws and I was being quite the hypocrit by thinking that they applied to everyone but me.
It will probably be necessary for me to hold down a job until I reach the age of retirement.  
Like I said earlier, my husband still wants me to be the obedient wife and quit my job. However, he knows that will not happen anytime soon.
I have to be obedient to my husband. However, I have to be obedient to my Lord over my husband. If what my husband instructs is in conflict with what my Lord instructs, then I have to disobey my husband.

Hi His_Child,

Obeying and submitting are not the same words.  Obey the commandments of the Lord, submit to your husband.   ;)  There's a Lord, He is King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, and I think that out ranks any "husband" status.   ;D  Keep in mind however, there's few things better in life than a love that gives you hope and strength.  Although, the ten commandments do not include, "Wives submit to your husbands" as some people make it out to be, the higher law of love says that husbands and wives should submit to each other.  In the garden of Eden, God created Eve to be Adam's helper.  Lots of people like to say, it says "helper" so therefore Adam was her boss.  Not so.  The Holy Spirit is also our helper and we aren't the boss of the Holy Spirit.  In addition, what Eve needed to HELP Adam with did not include a bunch of work because it was BEFORE the "by the sweat of thy brow thou shalt eat thy bread" curse.  So, in essense, it wasn't working for Adam or under Adam that Eve was created for.  There was no real work that needed helping with.  Adam was given charge over the animals, and Eve was created to be his healper.  Before the original sin, Eve was a co-leader because Adam didn't need a worker or a slave or someone to boss around.  Read those scriptures over and see if makes sense to you.

Still the sciptures says that husbands and wives should submit to each other because it's about love, not laws.  

I would like to point out that Paul wrote different letters to each of the churches.  He didn't write one standard letter, but each letter was addressed to a specific church.  This point of Paul writing different things to the different churchs, included with the example of Aninias and Saphira, who croaked over and died because they were hypocrites.  They wanted it to look like they'd given all that they had, when in actuality they held some back.  It was their right, BUT the point was they wanted people to THINK they gave all that they had.  They didn't.  Thus, they croaked over their hypocrasy.  The churches in that day, obviously, were composed of at least less hypocrits.  Obviously, the hypocrites in our churches aren't croaking over and dying like in the churches back in that day.  It is possible that ALL the men in the churches where Paul tells the wives to submit, those men were totally worthy of submission.  I disagree that ALL men are worthy of submission in the churches in our day.  I have a strong feeling if Paul was going to write a letter specifically to each and every church in our day, he wouldn't write the exact same letters that he wrote in that day.  He would address the issues of our day, the same way he addressed the issues of the churches in his day.

There's some other things to consider about your situation with Your husband.  If I were in your shoes, and my husband told me not to work, if we had to go on wellfare, I would die.  I would hate it and I would die for sure out of sheer hating it.  But I would still do what he said in that case.  And I totally am against just doing anything anyone says just because they said it.  But it's not worth it to fight over if it becomes a fight.  But I don't know your husband.  I'm imagining up my own because I don't have one.  The one I'm imagining up is pretty smart.  :)  And he loves the Lord.  And he's always wanting to do what is right.

So, I'm filling all the blanks with information that is inacurate.  I don't know all the details.  All I know is that there's something inside of us that have always paid our bills and paid what was expected of us, to find ourselves in a position to not be able to pay.  Only when we get to that point do we see the whole world in a different perspective.  And we might do a whole bunch of stuff to never get to that point.  Which would include working ourselves into the ground.  

Could it be that your husband loves you and he doesn't want you to work yourself into the ground.  The scriptures says husbands are supposed to take care of their wives like they take care of their own body.  Maybe he thinks you're working too much and because he has to look after you like he looks after himself, then maybe that's why he doesn't want you to work so much.  Don't work yourself into the ground and at the same time be at odds with your husband.  That's a lot of stress.  But you ARE his helper.  :)  You can remind him that while he's looking out for you, you're helping him.

By all means, however, don't toss out wisdom when applying the scriptures.  I think the reason why the world thinks the scriptures don't apply today is because so many people try to apply the scriptures without wisdom.  Even in Solomon's day, they had fresh perspective of the law and prophets that talked to God, they still needed wisdom to apply the the scriptures.  Today, we need wisdom to apply the scriptures.  

Take care

"Still the sciptures says that husbands and wives should submit to each other because it's about love, not laws."

Not only husbands and wives but all in Christ are to submit one to another.

  Ephesians 5:21.  Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
 22.  Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

 1 Peter 5:5.  Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Ollie

Sorry so long in response.  I'm old.  I forget easily.   ;D

Anywho...you said:


I'm so pleased!   ;D  Anywho, most churches I've been apart of have had women voting on everything.  Only problem I have with that is that you don't see that modeled in the early New Testament church.  But I feel that may well be splitting hairs so I don't usually go there.


No.  And no.  I'm not that old...I'M KIDDING!!! About the voting part, not the age...


See answer above concerning the vote.


There are many words used for "authority" in the New Testament.  In reference to the authority of the Apostles, Paul used the word exousia in 2 Corinthians 10:8 to describe their authority.  It simply means the power of choice, rule and right.  The word used for "head" in the reference of the husband being the head of the wife is kephale which means, supreme, chief, prominent, master, lord.

In regards to the woman not usurping the authority of a man, the word used is authenteo, which means one who acts on their own authority, excercises dominion over one.


Nope.  Wouldn't go there.  It is important for men to remember that the woman was made for his help.  Eve was Adam's help meet for his needs.  That is, she was designed to help him.  I can see this quite clearly in my relationship with my wife.  I have a one track mind.  She can be on many tracks at once.  My track may be teaching our daughter about obedience, while her track, in line with mine, may see the need for loving in this teaching.  I miss this.  She doesn't.  Together, we get the teaching God expects, with the love He provides.  I couldn't do it alone.  I was never meant to.


Because the point of the rest wasn't the rest, it was the reflection on God, and spending time resting in Him.  To them, they made it about a legalistic ( ;D) task.  Jesus proved the meaning went far deeper.  He broke no rules.  In fact, He kept them in the manner in which they were expected to be kept - perfectly.   :)

Soooo, what's your idea of grace?

Thank you!  :)

AllinAll,

Voting in church!  :)  I have seen some churches, though, I'm not lucky enough to have them in my area, that wait on the Lord for guidence.  You should see our church meetings.  We always have a vote and rarely does  everyone agree on something.  Of course, I didn't go to the meetings for a long time, and when I started going, I'd have something to say about everything.  Just because I had a comment that needed saying  ;D I don't go to the business meetings anymore because the church was there BEFORE I got there and it go along fine without my attending the business meetings.  

Let me ask you another question.  Do YOU ever notice the spirit of "The Curse" in any Christian couples you know?  Where the woman just thrives on being ruled over and never questions anything their husband says?  And if you say anything about it, they get down right nasty attitudes?  Taken to the extreme images of Charles Mansion come to mind.  Have you seen it?

How about the men that are dominitated by the princes of this world?  They thrive on dominating folks and beat their women into submission or to a pulp or to death whichever comes first.  Have you seen it?

What scriptures do you have to point out just why these spirits are ungodly?

I personally think the whole vote thing is an application of Democratic philosophy to the New Testament Assembly.  Doesn't work.  But as for waiting for the Lord's guidance...part of that guidance is determined when the local body/assembly agrees on a course of action after prayer and fasting as the Spirit leads.  As for your partaking in the meetings...that's where many will disagree.  Personally, the assembly is neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female in God's eyes.  So there must be agreement between all members of that assembly within the structure of authority that God has designed.  How do you do that?  That's an entirely different thread altogether!   ;D


Not quite that extreme, but yes I've seen it.  I call it replacing the cultural norm for biblical truth.  Back in the '50's that was normal.  Nowadays we are obviously wrong in not following what was the norm, so now we must apply a previous norm as a biblical truth.  I've got problems with that philosophy.  As I have said before, my wife often questions what I say.  She's not commanded not to!  She's only commanded to submit to my leading in the matter, while I am commanded to love her.  Part of loving her, to me at least, is hearing what she thinks about the decision.

Some women will get nasty when questioned about this.  That is the weaker brother/sister that is acting upon what they believe.  We, are not to despise them, and they are not to judge us (Rom. 14).


Not in my local body of believers, but I've known folks that have had that.  Those men aren't obeying God's command through Paul to love their wives:


A husband is to love his wife sacrificially, as Christ 1)loved the church, and 2)gave Himself for it.  I think this is key.  As men, we are often ready to declare our undying willingness to die for our wives...but are we willing to live for them?  That is, Christ showed His love for the church in ministering to them, and ultimately, mostly in His dying for them.  As a husband, I am to love my wife in serving her, helping her reach her goals spiritually, seeing to it that she not only grows spiritually, but that she is able to do so, teaching her and learning her as well as from her, and treating her as a cherished, fragile vessel that means everything to me.

 :)

Should women be able to be pastors, preachers. NO!
priests????????????? No such thing today.  

Who should be in leadership at home? The husband\


Brother Love :)

<:)))><

Discerning the Bible’s guidance on women and ministry closely parallels discerning its guidance on the issue of slavery. Our own Wesleyan-holiness forebears helped hammer out the approach to Scripture that gave Bible authority to anti-slavery advocates of the last century. It is no accident that old time Wesleyans who thought the Bible supported the abolition of slavery also led the way in reading the Bible in support of the ordination of women. Nor is any accident that old time Calvinists prominent in the pro-slavery camp also resisted in parallel arguments the "liberation" of women. The two arguments--over slavery and over women’s suffrage--were similar and closely tied together biblically.

The biblical challenge is two fold: 1) to interpret Bible texts accurately in their historical context, and 2) to determine which texts should be read in light of which (i.e., make sense of the Bible as a whole). Both were critical in the slavery debate, and both remain central in the "ordination of women" debate.

As for interpreting the Bible texts accurately in their historical contexts, both the pro-slavery and anti-slavery people tended to read their own positions into the text. On the one hand "The Curse of Ham," Genesis 9:18-25, did not really support the enslavement of black Africans. On the other, Paul did not abolish slavery nor imply its abolition in Ephesians 6:5-9.  
The same problem of competent reading of Bible texts in their historical and literary contexts, faces persons seeking God’s will from Scripture regarding the ordination of women. The most vocal present voices against the ordination of women (who happen also to be Calvinist) would have one believe these texts in 1 Timothy and 1 Corinthians are straight-forward, easily understood verses. The problem, they claim, is not the texts, but a compromised church, unfaithful to the truth of Scripture and afraid to confront error--the same slander thrown against our abolitionist predecessors by the pro-slavery folks. The truth is 1 Timothy 2:11-15 and 1 Corinthians 14:33b-36 are full of difficulties. It is not easy at all to determine the apostle’s basic meaning in these texts or the actual problems he wanted to meet, let alone know how we should apply them. Recent evidence indicates that even these "plainest" of texts do not bear directly against ordination.

But even if 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 14 did expressly forbid the ordination of women (which they do not), the second problem we noted earlier remains. Which texts are to be read in light of which? What sense do we make of the Bible as a whole on this question? Do we read the entire Bible in light of these two problematic texts, or do we read these two texts in light of the rest of the Bible? Here again the way has already been forged by the anti-slavery people who founded one branch of our present denomination in 1843 (The Wesleyan Methodist Connection).

The abolitionists’ most powerful anti-slavery arguments from the Bible proved not to be the Bible’s statements about slavery itself, but rather other basic, irrefutable biblical claims. This larger Bible context led them to conclude that slavery was a grievous evil, an abomination to God, in spite of the fact that Moses had provided for it, and Saint Paul had assumed it. Thus, in his tract against the slave trade, John Wesley argued not from "slavery texts" but from the Bible’s teaching about the mercy and justice of God. Jonathan Blanchard, Wesleyan Methodist founding president of Wheaton College, argued against slavery on the basis of "one bloodism" --God had created of "one blood" all humans (Acts 17). Charles Finney argued against slavery on the basis of common human need (all are sinful). Others relied on Galatians 3:28 ("In Christ...no slave or free") and Luke 4:18 (Jesus’ mission of "release to the captives," and so on.

None of these persons were liberals; none of them rejected the wisdom of God or the authority of Scripture, as their pro-slavery opponents claimed. Rather, they understood that some Bible truths, by their very nature, must logically provide the context in which other specific instructions and claims in Scripture are read.  

This very same task awaits persons who want to address the "women in ministry" question adequately! We must speak not only of one or two specific texts but must make sense of biblical revelation as a whole on this question. 1 Timothy 2 :11-15 and 1 Corinthians 14:33b-36 stand confronted by a tidal wave of other biblical texts, Pauline and otherwise, which fly in the face of prohibiting women full entry into Christian ministry (as B. T. Roberts, the founder of the Free Methodist Church, argued persuasively a century ago).

Our aim here is not actually to argue the point biblically but to show what the points to argue are--and have been for over a century! Here we underscore the fact that the Wesleyan Church’s ordination of women stands not only on solid biblical grounds but on a solid, historic approach to Scripture as well. We read Scripture on this question in ways hammered out over a century ago by the people who founded the Wesleyan Methodist Connection, the Pilgrim Holiness Church, the Salvation Army and other similar holiness streams.

No , the problem is not lack of biblical warrant, but lack of leadership and conviction. We have to take responsibility in local churches for calling and at district levels for appointing to leadership ministries the women whom God is gifting and calling for those ministries in the Wesleyan Church. And we must do it now.

 ;)

Whenever there's a spirit of this world  that wants to have it's way, it will find scriptures to justify its actions.  The Pharisees were able to justify at least in their own minds, crucifying Christ, and they  used the scriptures to do it.  Using scriptures to get your way is not new under the sun.

 :)   ;D  

Don't tell the desire to rule over someone isn't of the spirits of this world and don't tell me there aren't men that use the scriptures to justify their desires toward these actions.

The women too, wip out the scriptures because their desire to to their husband and they  love him to rule over them.

But God SAYS MEN NEED HELPERS.  Not slaves.  mean are leaders of the homes, but they need Helpers there too.  Helpers that help in the actual leadership, the way God orignially intended in the Garden of Eden BEFORE the curse.

Like I've said before, men filled with the Holy Spirit are able to make the distinction by the discerning of the spirits.  You don't find Godly men in their homes ruling over their wives, no matter what they say, they don't do it.  Unless of course, the temptation to have their own way comes along, then they'll wip out the scriptures to justify having their own, same way anyone does when they want their own way.

 ;D

So tell me Candice, do I desire to rule over women?


Tell me Candice, have you ever spoken with my wife to determine that she is one of these ladies who desires me to rule over her?


So, tell me, Candice,  ;D, are we no longer then under the curse?  Are we then free to go back to the original model of equality in leadership as God so simply showed...well, pretty much just you since everyone else I've seen on these threads know that God put the man at the head of the family at the beginning...?  ;D  BTW, where's your scriptural support for God's original intention?


Godly men obey God.  The problem is that too many men refuse to accept their biblical mandate and lead.  A man who leads his family is a man obedient to God, and a man that reflects Christ more than the man who refuses to do so.

Whenever there's a spirit of this world that wants to have it's way, it will find scriptures to justify its actions.  The Pharisees were able to justify at least in their own minds, crucifying Christ, and they  used the scriptures to do it.  Using scriptures to get your way is not new under the sun.

Along with the same 'spirit of the world' that will lead you to believe that Scripture doesn't mean what it says.  ;) Trying to work your way around Scripture 'is not new under the sun'!

The women too, wip out the scriptures because their desire to to their husband and they  love him to rule over them.

ROFL! You really need to stop generalizing!

This woman whips out Scripture because she believes God!

Many years ago I was too filled with pride to even contemplate the whole submission idea. What was that word again? Oh yeah, PRIDE! I was too proud to even consider submission. I was SELF-righteous. And it's been a loooooong road..... that I STILL travel! But I learned that submission simply means "to yield".  ;) It means putting someone else before ME. I don't kowtow to my husband but I do respect him. He deserves it! For putting up with me if nothing else!  ;) It's about dying to self and living for Christ! It's about loving someone more than you love yourself! It's about letting down your defenses and trusting in the Lord! It's about NOT competing to be in charge! It's about discipline and self-control and turning over a rebellious nature to God. It's not about what we WANT.... it's about what God SAYS! Letting go of a little pride now and then is nothing compared to what Christ did for me! It's not about you, it's about Christ!


You don't find Godly men in their homes ruling over their wives, no matter what they say, they don't do it.

True enough! But you will find them leading in their homes! What happens when both the adults in a home compete to be in charge? What happens when both the adults in a home refuse to take charge?

Ummmmm...... Not trying to split hairs here ::); but were you married to your two roommates? 'Cause if you were; that's a whole 'nother ball of wax. ;) And if you weren't; then what does that have to do with anything?  ???
It doesn't say submit to all men. It says a wife is to submit to her own husband and not anyone else's.

Ephesians 5:22
Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.
Ephesians 5:24
Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
Colossians 3:18
Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

I'm saying that there's women MARRIED to guys just like Beavis and Butthead.

Yup. True enough.  :) Just like there are men married to the female equivalent.

Would you say that guys wife is going to hell because she didn't let him be leader of the household?

Pardon?  ??? I never even suggested that someone's salvation is in question. This is the difficulty in trying to have a dialogue with you. You jump around, make assumptions, and generalize, based on your own limited personal experience.   :-\

If the wife has accepted Christ then her salvation is not in question. However, as her walk with Christ progresses, she will
become more grounded in God's Word and the changes will come over time. The problems happen when too many women spend time worrying about whether their husband (or anyone else's), isn't doing what Scripture says. We need to concentrate on what OUR job is. I don't need to spend my time trying to find 'loopholes' to God's Word. I need to spend my time trying to live God's Word.

You've lost your marbles if you're married to either Beavis or Butthead and you decide that they need to be the leader of the household.

I agree that there will be problems.  :) Anytime we do things our own way, then look to avoid the repercussions of those choices, there will be problems. "Sowing and reaping'" come to mind. A woman is no less married to B or B because she accepted Christ AFTER she married either one. Is a woman less pregnant- or less responsible for the baby- because she accepted Christ after? If I accumulate too much debt before I accept Christ am I less responsible for it after?

Of course the secret is to not marry someone like that.
Agreed!  ;)

1 Corinthians 7:16 How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband?

"The perfect illustration of submission is Jesus Christ Himself, who ``although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross'' (Philippians 2:6-8). Although Jesus was equal with God, He put aside the independent use of His attributes and placed Himself under the absolute authority of His Father for the redemption of mankind. At no point did Jesus stop being equal with the Father. That's clear from His miracles and claims to deity. But He did submit them to His Father so that the goal of providing salvation could be achieved. If Christ had not been willing to submit, there could be no salvation for mankind."

"The point is that the wife must reverence her husband, and the husband must exalt his wife in love in order to nurture their relationship. If your spouse fails to keep his or her part of the bargain, so be it. Be the mate God designed you to be."

http://www.tonyevans.org/ (http://www.tonyevans.org/)

It's all about complementing NOT competing!  ;)

Some times the scripture warnings about women just seem to shout.

Candace

When you claim that those who disagree with you are Old Testament Christians or they are being Pharisees, to me it makes you seem to be putting up the same "holier than thou front" that you are upset at others for doing.

We all think we have the right answers and most of us have searched the Scriptures.

Fortunately this is not a Salvation issue because we don't all agree.

A little clarification here...


It actually says we are to try the spirits, not discern them.  The idea being that we test them against something to verify their validity.  Question...test them against what?  Thanks for asking!   ;D  hehe  anywho, we're to test them against God's word.  If the spirit disagrees with the word, then the Spirit is not God's.  The Holy Spirit never leads us contrary to God's Word, and always leads us in accordance with that Word.  

Attitudes reflect the heart.  No one has a perfect heart.  While their head may know the truth, and while they may give that truth in love, after a while of being told they have no idea what they're talking about, they may snap, and be less than kind.  Hence, have a bad attitude.  An imperfect hearts imperfect response.  But the imperfect heart that rests in the truth of God's Word rather than in the feeling of the spirit that tells them what they want to hear, and obeys that Word will stand on much firmer ground than the latter.


The Pharisees problem wasn't the Word, or even their obedience of that Word.  It was their motivation behind the obedience.  To them, keeping the Law was salvation.  To God, it was to show them how desparately in need of salvation they were, and to point them to believe Him concerning that need.  Hence, the O.T. believer believed God in that He would send a Redeemer.  He did!  Now, the N.T. believer believes God in that His Redeemer paid the price for our sins, was dead, buried and rose again on the third day to the glory of God.  And ya know what?  We get that from both the Old and the New Testaments.  Living by the Word isn't the problem.  Living by the Word with the wrong heart is.   :)


Yup.  It's called growth.  Each believer will be lead in a different fashion, dependent upon the areas of their lives that the Holy Spirit is working on.  They will obey bits and parts, and at times will hold the bits and the parts as more important than others peoples bits and parts as they are simply immature believers.  Paul tells the mature believers not to despise them, and the immature believers not to judge the mature by their limited understandings.  Paul even goes further and tells us that we all know only in part, and are only capable of telling in part.  Bits and parts is God's way of working the image of His Son into our lives.


Nope!  They are still women used by God to accomplish what the men refused to accomplish alone.  It is not the norm.  Yet, whoever said God had to operate in the norm?  There were, BTW, consequences for the man's failure to lead.  Regardless, Jesus, Paul, and the rest of them spoke in unity concerning the roles of the genders within the body of Christ.  Male leadership and authority within the assembly and in the home, along side female submission in both.  Male and female equality within the assembly, but differing roles.  "If every one were the eyes, then were would be the hearing?"  

And I do want to stop here and make a point.  You said:


Who are the "they" and "them" of which you speak?  You seem to be running dangerously close to generalizing the populace of the Body of Christ, when you may actually only be referring to a specific member within that body.  You can't judge the whole on the misdeeds of the few.    :)


Actually, he did.  When Paul wrote to the assembly at Corinth, was it simply one assembly at the entire city?  Or was it many assemblies in the city?  We don't know.  We do know that the letters sent to each city were circulated amongst believers worldwide.  They were copied, and resent, reread, recopied and resent.  And if those letters are in God's Word to you and I, then we cannot chose to say that they don't apply to us because it wasn't written to us.  It was Paul who said, "ALL[/b] scripture is breathed out by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness."  Not some.  ALL[/u][/b].  Do you believe what Paul says here?   :)


Chapter and verse that says this is true please?  Because without it, you base your statement upon your feeling.  You state it by a spirit you haven't tried.  The Spirit will never lead you contrary to the Word.  If the Word and the feeling don't agree...which is wrong?


Wise, and God's design for the family.  Imagine that.  God being wise... ;D  Seriously though, a wise woman can do wonders in her family, and with her husband if she does so under the auspices of God's design.  He promises an affect on the husband.  Wisdom is using God's truth in God's way.   :)


I'll ask one last leading question here: How do we live by a living God?

I know that I haven't responded to your question about proof of the Adam/Eve relationship.  Well, already have.  You simply chose not to believe the Word that was given.   :)

Hi All,

You know, there are women who I feel terrible about.  Their husband is like an additional child.  He brings home the paycheck AFTER he stops at the bar.  Any chance to run away and escape responsibility WILL be taken advantage of.  The wife has to hold the man to his responsibilities.  She's got to make every decision in the house--plus, she has an additional child who has full control of all the household's money plus a driver's license.  He does not take a lead in the household.  None.  He thinks he's a good father because the kids love him best because he's their best friend--he never scolds or disciplines.  The disciplinarian is the mom.  It's a terrible terrible situation.  In no way am I ever going to begin to say this is the way things should be.   :'(  

The mom has to carry the whole weight.  Then there's also families where the mom is some sort of lazy person that doesn't know how to use a broom.  You go over to their house and there's not a full square inch of carpeting without some sort of grime or crud on it.  It's disgusting.  And the husband is no where to be found until the paycheck is gone.  And there's another baby on the way.  This world isn't a right place.  I do agree with the Word in the way that God ordained families to be.  But in this world, it's not always that way.  People that need help need help in the place that they are at.

Thought I would point that out.  

My point is, I'm not arguing with the scriptures, but I think that women in communities make a big difference in places where people need role models and guidance.  Women lead by the Holy Spirit can make a difference in many people's lives.  

So, I guess I'm saying these things because its not about arguing what the ideal thing is, its about living in the world.  We can sit in our lofty places and say all kinds of words, but what we want to do is LIVE OUT HIS LOVE.  We want to LIVE OUT what we know.  We want to interpret the scriptures with our lives and not just with our minds.

Peace

Allinall,

When you said   "ALL scripture is breathed out by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness."  

You are quoting Paul who was talking to Timothy who had known the scriptures from his youth--Paul says this in the paragraph right before.

2 Timothy 15 "and how from infancy  you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."


While I do believe Paul's words are inspired and God breathed, a person has to be an idiot to think Paul was referring to his own words when he wrote that to Timothy.

It was years and years after Paul's death that Paul's words became "the scriptures"  While Paul was preaching people were searching the Old Testiment and Paul in his letter was referring to the Old Testiment when he wrote "All Scriptures"

Of course, in our wisdom and knowledge we like to add all sorts of meanings to words where the original writer had no idea we would add those meanings to his words.

Peace

I'm sure you all miss me.

Actually, I really will miss you.  :)

What I'm seeing is people freaking out about the sound of the words, "Women in leadership roles."  That proves my point of the the danger of here in being afraid there might be a woman leader.

LOL! You didn't prove your point. You didn't prove the 'freaking out' aspect, either.  ;D

So sorry about over generalizing the population--I was referring to the people who have been believers for YEARS who know better and are still terrorized by a woman that is lead by the Holy Spirit of God to take an active role in areas where she can make a significant positive impact.

Ah! I think I almost understand now.  ;D In fact, I think I might possibly agree with you.  ;) No, Scripture doesn't require women to be mindless idiots.

My point is, I'm not arguing with the scriptures, but I think that women in communities make a big difference in places where people need role models and guidance.  Women lead by the Holy Spirit can make a difference in many people's lives.

*GASP* I even agree with you on this!  ;D

We want to interpret the scriptures with our lives and not just with our minds.

I agree here, too. BUT.... I doubt that I agree with how you mean it!  ;)

I have a couple of questions for you: Doesn't the bible tell us to go and teach the nations? Does it say that just man is supposed to go and teach the nations or all Christians are supposed to?

Just a thought....
Christina

Neo,
What is your interpretation of this verse? Is she a door mat? Does she have to wait on him hand and foot just because he says so?

The bible also says that she is his HELPMATE..... The way that I understand the bible is that she is equal to her husband and that yes the husband is the head of the household as long as he is right with God and God's will. I am in a situation in my own home where I have taken the role of being the head of the household. This is because my hubby is currently in a year long Christian Rehabilitation program called Teen Challenge. Before he went in, he wasn't a Christian at all and I was told by God that I needed to make the decisions that were best for our family based on God's wishes for us. If it had not been for me following what God said for me to do, my husband wouldn't be where he is at right now. He is a Christian now and is doing wonderful and in a few months he will be home. When he comes home, he will be the head of our household again. See if I had submitted to my husband instead of what God wanted, where would my family be at today? My husband and I would have devorced instead of our love for God and each other growing stronger.

God Bless You,
Christina  ;D

sincereheart,

That is exactly what I had to do. I knew that God had put my husband and I together for a reason. My husband had gone astray from God. I prayed that God would touch his heart so that he would see that he needed help. God did that and my husband asked for my help and asked that I get him set up for Teen Chellenge which is a year long Christian rehabilitation program. I respected my husband's wishes and got him set up to go there.

While he is there, I have to make all the family decisions. I have trusted God to see that my husband turns to God and not his old ways. I have seen such a change in my husband since he has been there. The change is from him trusting in God and from all the prayers that I continue to make.

In one letter from my husband he told me how much he loves me for standing beside him and not throwing up what has happened in his face. He also says that he knows how much I love him. Our love for each other has grown stronger. When he does come home, nothing will tear our bond with each other apart, because that bond is made through God's love not just man's love. See God told me not to give up on my husband and to stand by him. God has an ultimate plan for us and one day that plan will be revealed to us. By praying for my husband and letting God take care of the rest, God has worked wonders in his life and in mine.

Christina

Candice,
I can relate with what you said. My first marriage was exactly like that. I believed that it was my DUTY to stay with him no matter how bad it got and things got really, really bad. I was abused mentally, physically and emotionally. I was one of those wives that felt like I had to do whatever he said I had to do no matter what it was or who it hurt. He was one of those husbands that wanted a wife and children at home but wanted to be able to do the "single guy" thing. It didn't matter how much I pryed for him. My mother's words that she said to him came crashing down one day when he abused me with my kids in my arms. Se when, I was barely 18, she told him he was satan himself. He laughed and said, "Yep, you found me out." At the time, I ignored what she said.  10 years later, and still trying to get away from him, I believe that he isn't rightw ith God by no means and follows satan's wishes.

To make matters worse, I remarried almost 3 years ago. At the time, my husband was a Christain. Notice, I said "at the time." After about a year, he started resorting to pills and alcohol. I soon found myself in a place where I felt like I was rasing another child. We have 6 kids between us. 4 that are mine and 2 that are his kids but we claim each otehr's kids as our own. Not like I didn't have enough children to raise but to raise a grown man on top of it (that's how I felt). After a year of trying to solve the problems on my own by limiting his money, the amount of time that he was alone with the car, trying to watch every move that he made, and several fights over me being too controlling, I decided that it was in our best interest to turn the problems over to God and let him deal with them instead of me. Once I did that, my husband saw where he was wrong asked me for help and is currently getting the Godly help that he has needed for a long time. I have noticed a BIG change in him over the past 7 months that I attribute solely to God. We still have a ways to go until our family is completely reunited but when that day comes, we will have a great testimony to share of how satan riped our family apart but God put it back together again.

God Bless You,
Christina

 Please tell what you think of the articles on these websites

   www.godswordtowomen.org and www.cbeinternational.org

  Thanks :)

I'd just like to say something, I have spent a while reading your past sayings.  And I wonder, If we are not giving glory to the one who allows God to work through him then what does it matter?  I think whoever's called is called.  And I think that I am able to discuss patiently with you.  I should know, that God has called me to preach to a church.  
BTW, the girl that was wondering about all this . . . she is probably trying to figure out what God is calling her to do.  I hope that you didn't discourage her. . .

I am a   young  man  who  has  seen  both  men  and  women  abuse  the  power  they  have  been  given.  All  people are corrupt  and  evil.   Women  in  leadership  roles  should  be watched  closely,  as  should  the  men.   Women  as  well as  men  abuse  power.   Take  it  away  from  them  before it's too  late.

Seems like you judge all christians by the way a few act . . . :( >:( NOT good.  Maybe you should give others a chance.