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C C
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« Reply #75 on: July 15, 2004, 12:21:40 PM »

Whenever there's a spirit of this world that wants to have it's way, it will find scriptures to justify its actions.  The Pharisees were able to justify at least in their own minds, crucifying Christ, and they  used the scriptures to do it.  Using scriptures to get your way is not new under the sun.

 Smiley   Grin  

Don't tell the desire to rule over someone isn't of the spirits of this world and don't tell me there aren't men that use the scriptures to justify their desires toward these actions.

The women too, wip out the scriptures because their desire to to their husband and they  love him to rule over them.

But God SAYS MEN NEED HELPERS.  Not slaves.  mean are leaders of the homes, but they need Helpers there too.  Helpers that help in the actual leadership, the way God orignially intended in the Garden of Eden BEFORE the curse.

Like I've said before, men filled with the Holy Spirit are able to make the distinction by the discerning of the spirits.  You don't find Godly men in their homes ruling over their wives, no matter what they say, they don't do it.  Unless of course, the temptation to have their own way comes along, then they'll wip out the scriptures to justify having their own, same way anyone does when they want their own way.

 Grin
« Last Edit: July 15, 2004, 12:34:43 PM by Candice Cavalier » Logged

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« Reply #76 on: July 15, 2004, 05:04:36 PM »

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Don't tell the desire to rule over someone isn't of the spirits of this world and don't tell me there aren't men that use the scriptures to justify their desires toward these actions.


So tell me Candice, do I desire to rule over women?

Quote
The women too, wip out the scriptures because their desire to to their husband and they  love him to rule over them.


Tell me Candice, have you ever spoken with my wife to determine that she is one of these ladies who desires me to rule over her?

Quote
But God SAYS MEN NEED HELPERS.  Not slaves.  mean are leaders of the homes, but they need Helpers there too.  Helpers that help in the actual leadership, the way God orignially intended in the Garden of Eden BEFORE the curse.


So, tell me, Candice,  Grin, are we no longer then under the curse?  Are we then free to go back to the original model of equality in leadership as God so simply showed...well, pretty much just you since everyone else I've seen on these threads know that God put the man at the head of the family at the beginning...?  Grin  BTW, where's your scriptural support for God's original intention?

Quote
Like I've said before, men filled with the Holy Spirit are able to make the distinction by the discerning of the spirits.  You don't find Godly men in their homes ruling over their wives, no matter what they say, they don't do it.  Unless of course, the temptation to have their own way comes along, then they'll wip out the scriptures to justify having their own, same way anyone does when they want their own way.


Godly men obey God.  The problem is that too many men refuse to accept their biblical mandate and lead.  A man who leads his family is a man obedient to God, and a man that reflects Christ more than the man who refuses to do so.

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« Reply #77 on: July 16, 2004, 08:04:23 AM »

Whenever there's a spirit of this world that wants to have it's way, it will find scriptures to justify its actions.  The Pharisees were able to justify at least in their own minds, crucifying Christ, and they  used the scriptures to do it.  Using scriptures to get your way is not new under the sun.

Along with the same 'spirit of the world' that will lead you to believe that Scripture doesn't mean what it says.  Wink Trying to work your way around Scripture 'is not new under the sun'!

The women too, wip out the scriptures because their desire to to their husband and they  love him to rule over them.

ROFL! You really need to stop generalizing!

This woman whips out Scripture because she believes God!

Many years ago I was too filled with pride to even contemplate the whole submission idea. What was that word again? Oh yeah, PRIDE! I was too proud to even consider submission. I was SELF-righteous. And it's been a loooooong road..... that I STILL travel! But I learned that submission simply means "to yield".  Wink It means putting someone else before ME. I don't kowtow to my husband but I do respect him. He deserves it! For putting up with me if nothing else!  Wink It's about dying to self and living for Christ! It's about loving someone more than you love yourself! It's about letting down your defenses and trusting in the Lord! It's about NOT competing to be in charge! It's about discipline and self-control and turning over a rebellious nature to God. It's not about what we WANT.... it's about what God SAYS! Letting go of a little pride now and then is nothing compared to what Christ did for me! It's not about you, it's about Christ!


You don't find Godly men in their homes ruling over their wives, no matter what they say, they don't do it.

True enough! But you will find them leading in their homes! What happens when both the adults in a home compete to be in charge? What happens when both the adults in a home refuse to take charge?
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« Reply #78 on: July 16, 2004, 06:27:45 PM »

Just giving you guys some points to ponder.  And you're pondering them.   Grin  That makes me happy.  I appreciate your input.

Allinall,  Grin YOU have to give ME evidence that Adam was Eve's boss before the fall.  I've been waiting on it all this time.  There's no evidence that Adam was Eve's boss.

Sincereheart, when no one wants to take the leadership of the home---have you met a home where a certain recipe ALWAYS applies?  I haven't.  So, I don't know what to say to a person.  If it's a man and he's willing to do what he needs to, someone should get out the scriptures and tell him he's supposed to be the leader.  But if his only goals in life are to drink more beer, or do more drugs, or stay on the sofa all day, maybe he shouldn't be the leader.
I tested it out one time.  I can't say it was an official test about what to do in a marriage, but I had two male roommates.  This is when I was VERY new to Christianity.  My Christianity happened while I was in this situation.  And I tried to get them to take charge of the household.  HA HA!  Bad idea.  But I held out.  I waited and waited for up until the VERY LAST MINUTE of eviction.  Of course, I had to save the day.  But anyway.  I'm not sure if that works.  One thing is sure, there are PRINCIPLES to follow.  When a person tries to apply the principles as if they are law, they get in  to trouble.  Especially if you try to apply some principles and not aothers.  The Bible has to be take as a WHOLE.  People can't just pick bits and peices enforce them as law and call themselves righteous because of it.

Peace and Joy and love for all your input.   Grin

Candice

Ummmmm...... Not trying to split hairs here Roll Eyes; but were you married to your two roommates? 'Cause if you were; that's a whole 'nother ball of wax. Wink And if you weren't; then what does that have to do with anything?  Huh
It doesn't say submit to all men. It says a wife is to submit to her own husband and not anyone else's.

Ephesians 5:22
Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.
Ephesians 5:24
Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
Colossians 3:18
Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
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« Reply #79 on: July 18, 2004, 05:24:12 AM »

I'm saying that there's women MARRIED to guys just like Beavis and Butthead.

Yup. True enough.  Smiley Just like there are men married to the female equivalent.

Would you say that guys wife is going to hell because she didn't let him be leader of the household?

Pardon?  Huh I never even suggested that someone's salvation is in question. This is the difficulty in trying to have a dialogue with you. You jump around, make assumptions, and generalize, based on your own limited personal experience.   Undecided

If the wife has accepted Christ then her salvation is not in question. However, as her walk with Christ progresses, she will
become more grounded in God's Word and the changes will come over time. The problems happen when too many women spend time worrying about whether their husband (or anyone else's), isn't doing what Scripture says. We need to concentrate on what OUR job is. I don't need to spend my time trying to find 'loopholes' to God's Word. I need to spend my time trying to live God's Word.

You've lost your marbles if you're married to either Beavis or Butthead and you decide that they need to be the leader of the household.

I agree that there will be problems.  Smiley Anytime we do things our own way, then look to avoid the repercussions of those choices, there will be problems. "Sowing and reaping'" come to mind. A woman is no less married to B or B because she accepted Christ AFTER she married either one. Is a woman less pregnant- or less responsible for the baby- because she accepted Christ after? If I accumulate too much debt before I accept Christ am I less responsible for it after?

Of course the secret is to not marry someone like that.
Agreed!  Wink

1 Corinthians 7:16 How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband?

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« Reply #80 on: July 18, 2004, 06:34:44 AM »

Quote
Not only husbands and wives but all in Christ are to submit one to another.

Ephesians 5:21.  Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
22.  Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

1 Peter 5:5.  Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
Ollie

"The perfect illustration of submission is Jesus Christ Himself, who ``although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross'' (Philippians 2:6-8). Although Jesus was equal with God, He put aside the independent use of His attributes and placed Himself under the absolute authority of His Father for the redemption of mankind. At no point did Jesus stop being equal with the Father. That's clear from His miracles and claims to deity. But He did submit them to His Father so that the goal of providing salvation could be achieved. If Christ had not been willing to submit, there could be no salvation for mankind."

"The point is that the wife must reverence her husband, and the husband must exalt his wife in love in order to nurture their relationship. If your spouse fails to keep his or her part of the bargain, so be it. Be the mate God designed you to be."

http://www.tonyevans.org/

It's all about complementing NOT competing!  Wink

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« Reply #81 on: July 18, 2004, 09:44:57 AM »

Some times the scripture warnings about women just seem to shout.
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« Reply #82 on: July 20, 2004, 03:25:37 PM »

Candace

When you claim that those who disagree with you are Old Testament Christians or they are being Pharisees, to me it makes you seem to be putting up the same "holier than thou front" that you are upset at others for doing.

We all think we have the right answers and most of us have searched the Scriptures.

Fortunately this is not a Salvation issue because we don't all agree.
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« Reply #83 on: July 21, 2004, 10:13:00 AM »

A little clarification here...

Quote
The Bible says we should discern the spirits--it's not so much we're going to try to pick up on invisible vibrations or something as much as --discerning Attitudes.

It actually says we are to try the spirits, not discern them.  The idea being that we test them against something to verify their validity.  Question...test them against what?  Thanks for asking!   Grin  hehe  anywho, we're to test them against God's word.  If the spirit disagrees with the word, then the Spirit is not God's.  The Holy Spirit never leads us contrary to God's Word, and always leads us in accordance with that Word.  

Attitudes reflect the heart.  No one has a perfect heart.  While their head may know the truth, and while they may give that truth in love, after a while of being told they have no idea what they're talking about, they may snap, and be less than kind.  Hence, have a bad attitude.  An imperfect hearts imperfect response.  But the imperfect heart that rests in the truth of God's Word rather than in the feeling of the spirit that tells them what they want to hear, and obeys that Word will stand on much firmer ground than the latter.

Quote
The whole gist of it, in a nut shell is the principle of the matter.  Christ repeatedly warned the Pharisees that the searched the scriptures trying to live out every word for word, thinking that in that they had eternal life.  Christ wanted to give them LIFE.  Living water.  


The Pharisees problem wasn't the Word, or even their obedience of that Word.  It was their motivation behind the obedience.  To them, keeping the Law was salvation.  To God, it was to show them how desparately in need of salvation they were, and to point them to believe Him concerning that need.  Hence, the O.T. believer believed God in that He would send a Redeemer.  He did!  Now, the N.T. believer believes God in that His Redeemer paid the price for our sins, was dead, buried and rose again on the third day to the glory of God.  And ya know what?  We get that from both the Old and the New Testaments.  Living by the Word isn't the problem.  Living by the Word with the wrong heart is.   Smiley

Quote
So, then what I see are called "Old Testiment Christians".  They want to pour over ancient words and instead of living out the spirit, the LIFE--following a LIVING GOD who is ALIVE and well, try to follow word for word.  Instead of getting the whole message, they pick out this and pick out that and try to live by parts of it just like the Pharasees did pouring over the scriptures and not getting Living Water.  

Yup.  It's called growth.  Each believer will be lead in a different fashion, dependent upon the areas of their lives that the Holy Spirit is working on.  They will obey bits and parts, and at times will hold the bits and the parts as more important than others peoples bits and parts as they are simply immature believers.  Paul tells the mature believers not to despise them, and the immature believers not to judge the mature by their limited understandings.  Paul even goes further and tells us that we all know only in part, and are only capable of telling in part.  Bits and parts is God's way of working the image of His Son into our lives.

Quote
Do Debrah and Mulda mean nothing to some because Paul's words cancelled out women leaders and prophets for all Old Testiment Christians.  50 percent of the popluation is women and there will be women leaders regardless of Old Testiment Christians who try to apply the scriptures to their lives the way that the Pharisees applied the scriptures to their lives.  The only difference between them and the Pharisees is that now they have Paul's additional commands and Jesus' Words, but they still don't appeal to the Living God for wisdom and guidence.


Nope!  They are still women used by God to accomplish what the men refused to accomplish alone.  It is not the norm.  Yet, whoever said God had to operate in the norm?  There were, BTW, consequences for the man's failure to lead.  Regardless, Jesus, Paul, and the rest of them spoke in unity concerning the roles of the genders within the body of Christ.  Male leadership and authority within the assembly and in the home, along side female submission in both.  Male and female equality within the assembly, but differing roles.  "If every one were the eyes, then were would be the hearing?"  

And I do want to stop here and make a point.  You said:

Quote
The only difference between them and the Pharisees is that now they have Paul's additional commands and Jesus' Words, but they still don't appeal to the Living God for wisdom and guidence.

Who are the "they" and "them" of which you speak?  You seem to be running dangerously close to generalizing the populace of the Body of Christ, when you may actually only be referring to a specific member within that body.  You can't judge the whole on the misdeeds of the few.    Smiley

Quote
I do not hold Paul's letters in the New Testiment to be a personal letter to me.  Paul's letters aren't commands given to all people.  If you notice, he wrote specific letters to each of the churches.  He didn't write one standard letter to all the churches because each church had different needs.  

Actually, he did.  When Paul wrote to the assembly at Corinth, was it simply one assembly at the entire city?  Or was it many assemblies in the city?  We don't know.  We do know that the letters sent to each city were circulated amongst believers worldwide.  They were copied, and resent, reread, recopied and resent.  And if those letters are in God's Word to you and I, then we cannot chose to say that they don't apply to us because it wasn't written to us.  It was Paul who said, "ALL[/b] scripture is breathed out by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness."  Not some.  ALL[/u][/b].  Do you believe what Paul says here?   Smiley

Quote
My point is we have a living God.  And the commandments not to Kill and not to Steal--those are commandments.  Paul's letters aren't direct commandments to me.  Or to the women who organize neighborhood watches, or who organize day care for single moms.  There's nothing really wrong with women who are wise and use wisdom to make their world a better place.

Chapter and verse that says this is true please?  Because without it, you base your statement upon your feeling.  You state it by a spirit you haven't tried.  The Spirit will never lead you contrary to the Word.  If the Word and the feeling don't agree...which is wrong?

Quote
In wisdom women SHOULD let their husband be head of the household -- AND THE REASON for this is that if not, the women WILL carry the whole burden themselves.  There's something about life that always turns out and that is if a person consistently does some task, after a while everyone thinks that task is THEIR responsibility.  One day the task doesn't get done, that person is in trouble because everyone now thinks it's that person's job to make sure that task gets done.  Women can rest and focus on the details that they are good at if there is someone responsible for the household.  And there's so much more to it then that.  It IS WISE.  Wise words given by Paul.

Wise, and God's design for the family.  Imagine that.  God being wise... Grin  Seriously though, a wise woman can do wonders in her family, and with her husband if she does so under the auspices of God's design.  He promises an affect on the husband.  Wisdom is using God's truth in God's way.   Smiley

Quote
Jesus has not abandoned us.  The WORD is Jesus.  He is the WORD.  When we live by The Word, we are living by a living God.

I'll ask one last leading question here: How do we live by a living God?

I know that I haven't responded to your question about proof of the Adam/Eve relationship.  Well, already have.  You simply chose not to believe the Word that was given.   Smiley
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« Reply #84 on: July 24, 2004, 12:04:29 PM »

Hi All,

You know, there are women who I feel terrible about.  Their husband is like an additional child.  He brings home the paycheck AFTER he stops at the bar.  Any chance to run away and escape responsibility WILL be taken advantage of.  The wife has to hold the man to his responsibilities.  She's got to make every decision in the house--plus, she has an additional child who has full control of all the household's money plus a driver's license.  He does not take a lead in the household.  None.  He thinks he's a good father because the kids love him best because he's their best friend--he never scolds or disciplines.  The disciplinarian is the mom.  It's a terrible terrible situation.  In no way am I ever going to begin to say this is the way things should be.   Cry  

The mom has to carry the whole weight.  Then there's also families where the mom is some sort of lazy person that doesn't know how to use a broom.  You go over to their house and there's not a full square inch of carpeting without some sort of grime or crud on it.  It's disgusting.  And the husband is no where to be found until the paycheck is gone.  And there's another baby on the way.  This world isn't a right place.  I do agree with the Word in the way that God ordained families to be.  But in this world, it's not always that way.  People that need help need help in the place that they are at.

Thought I would point that out.  

My point is, I'm not arguing with the scriptures, but I think that women in communities make a big difference in places where people need role models and guidance.  Women lead by the Holy Spirit can make a difference in many people's lives.  

So, I guess I'm saying these things because its not about arguing what the ideal thing is, its about living in the world.  We can sit in our lofty places and say all kinds of words, but what we want to do is LIVE OUT HIS LOVE.  We want to LIVE OUT what we know.  We want to interpret the scriptures with our lives and not just with our minds.

Peace

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« Reply #85 on: July 24, 2004, 04:09:22 PM »

Allinall,

When you said   "ALL scripture is breathed out by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness."  

You are quoting Paul who was talking to Timothy who had known the scriptures from his youth--Paul says this in the paragraph right before.

2 Timothy 15 "and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."


While I do believe Paul's words are inspired and God breathed, a person has to be an idiot to think Paul was referring to his own words when he wrote that to Timothy.

It was years and years after Paul's death that Paul's words became "the scriptures"  While Paul was preaching people were searching the Old Testiment and Paul in his letter was referring to the Old Testiment when he wrote "All Scriptures"

Of course, in our wisdom and knowledge we like to add all sorts of meanings to words where the original writer had no idea we would add those meanings to his words.

Peace

« Last Edit: July 24, 2004, 04:11:53 PM by Candice Cavalier » Logged

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« Reply #86 on: July 25, 2004, 07:08:44 AM »

I'm sure you all miss me.

Actually, I really will miss you.  Smiley

What I'm seeing is people freaking out about the sound of the words, "Women in leadership roles."  That proves my point of the the danger of here in being afraid there might be a woman leader.

LOL! You didn't prove your point. You didn't prove the 'freaking out' aspect, either.  Grin

So sorry about over generalizing the population--I was referring to the people who have been believers for YEARS who know better and are still terrorized by a woman that is lead by the Holy Spirit of God to take an active role in areas where she can make a significant positive impact.

Ah! I think I almost understand now.  Grin In fact, I think I might possibly agree with you.  Wink No, Scripture doesn't require women to be mindless idiots.

My point is, I'm not arguing with the scriptures, but I think that women in communities make a big difference in places where people need role models and guidance.  Women lead by the Holy Spirit can make a difference in many people's lives.

*GASP* I even agree with you on this!  Grin

We want to interpret the scriptures with our lives and not just with our minds.

I agree here, too. BUT.... I doubt that I agree with how you mean it!  Wink
« Last Edit: July 25, 2004, 07:10:25 AM by sincereheart » Logged



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« Reply #87 on: August 03, 2004, 06:41:26 PM »

Should women be able to be pastors, preachers, priests etc?
What type of leadership roles should they have in the church?

How about at home?
Who should be in leadership at home?


I have a couple of questions for you: Doesn't the bible tell us to go and teach the nations? Does it say that just man is supposed to go and teach the nations or all Christians are supposed to?

Just a thought....
Christina
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« Reply #88 on: August 03, 2004, 06:53:45 PM »

Colossians 3:18 - "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord."

Neo,
What is your interpretation of this verse? Is she a door mat? Does she have to wait on him hand and foot just because he says so?

The bible also says that she is his HELPMATE..... The way that I understand the bible is that she is equal to her husband and that yes the husband is the head of the household as long as he is right with God and God's will. I am in a situation in my own home where I have taken the role of being the head of the household. This is because my hubby is currently in a year long Christian Rehabilitation program called Teen Challenge. Before he went in, he wasn't a Christian at all and I was told by God that I needed to make the decisions that were best for our family based on God's wishes for us. If it had not been for me following what God said for me to do, my husband wouldn't be where he is at right now. He is a Christian now and is doing wonderful and in a few months he will be home. When he comes home, he will be the head of our household again. See if I had submitted to my husband instead of what God wanted, where would my family be at today? My husband and I would have devorced instead of our love for God and each other growing stronger.

God Bless You,
Christina  Grin
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« Reply #89 on: August 03, 2004, 07:48:42 PM »

God's way works! I'm living proof! The problem with your examples earlier - about 'following' an ungodly husband - is that we should let the Lord lead us to a husband. The problems arise when we do it our way....

What happens if we marry the man God has for us and down the road that man stops being a Godly leader in the home?

I saw this earlier and wanted to wait and prayerfully answer you. Smiley

Some thoughts.....
We are our husband's helper not his keeper. Therefore, you can't control him but you can control you. By that; I mean that you can control your own attitudes, actions, etc.

The least, and most, you can do is pray. Pray for a better attitude, outlook, heart, whatever the problem is you're having with dealing with the situation.

Pray for your husband. Pray that God will work on his heart, pray that God will guide him to be the spiritual leader in your home. Pray that God opens your eyes so that you can see your husband as God sees him.

Start your day with prayer to give you the strength to get through each day. No worries about tomorrow; just strength for that day ("give us this day our *spiritual* daily bread").

Remember that when your husband is most unloveable is when he most needs to be loved. Remember why you married him. Remember how you knew he was the one God had for you! Then think about the situation now and see if you can find why God put you together. Was it for just a time as this? When you're husband is most down? When he would need for you to be strong? Did he know that any other woman might nag or belittle or berate and that you were just the one that wouldn't? Did He know that this would be a strengthening of your relationship with Him? God can handle all your frustrations and anger and fear and resentment. Take it to Him!

When these times pass, will your husband look back and KNOW that his wife will stand by him through anything - because man, those were hard times and he learned to trust her? Will he remember tough times and smile because he had a wife that loved and respected him till he got back on his feet?

Turn it over to God and LEAVE it there! Stay in His Word! Read Proverbs 31. Read it again. Re-read it.

sincereheart,

That is exactly what I had to do. I knew that God had put my husband and I together for a reason. My husband had gone astray from God. I prayed that God would touch his heart so that he would see that he needed help. God did that and my husband asked for my help and asked that I get him set up for Teen Chellenge which is a year long Christian rehabilitation program. I respected my husband's wishes and got him set up to go there.

While he is there, I have to make all the family decisions. I have trusted God to see that my husband turns to God and not his old ways. I have seen such a change in my husband since he has been there. The change is from him trusting in God and from all the prayers that I continue to make.

In one letter from my husband he told me how much he loves me for standing beside him and not throwing up what has happened in his face. He also says that he knows how much I love him. Our love for each other has grown stronger. When he does come home, nothing will tear our bond with each other apart, because that bond is made through God's love not just man's love. See God told me not to give up on my husband and to stand by him. God has an ultimate plan for us and one day that plan will be revealed to us. By praying for my husband and letting God take care of the rest, God has worked wonders in his life and in mine.

Christina
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