what's wrong with voting Kerry?

[Lynx]

But the argument can be made specifically Against Kerry simply based on just his stance on abortion, as a Catholic you should see that, have you read any of those links?  If not, then at least read this one
http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=1321

I don't want to vote for Bush anymore than you do, and like I said before, read both parts, those for and against Kerry.  I didn't say just to read only the reasons to vote for Kerry, which you can certainly find aplenty using the google search I posted, but read everything you can about both.

I certainly Do Not think Bush is a more moral leader over all, and I disagree with alost everything about Bush, I see him on the telly and he makes me sick*lol*  but there's the matter of "proportionate reasons".

[Lynx]

I don't think you've done a very effective search of these candidates.

Also perhaps you missed the point where I stated I've spent the better part of the week researching this, these few links I gave were to start you off, not a total tally

[Chesed]

Oompa Loompa Doopity Doo...

[2nd Timothy]

Probably the best place to start is with what each party stands for.  If you could name 3 (or more) of the most important issues for you this upcoming election what would they be?  Once you answer these, go to....

http://www.rnc.org

and

http://www.dnc.org

and educate yourself on what each party stands for.   After that ask God how he would have you vote.  Then......

VOTE!

Grace and Peace!

[Brother Love]

Probably the best place to start is with what each party stands for.  If you could name 3 (or more) of the most important issues for you this upcoming election what would they be?  Once you answer these, go to....

http://www.rnc.org

and

http://www.dnc.org

and educate yourself on what each party stands for.   After that ask God how he would have you vote.  Then......


VOTE!

Grace and Peace!

Thanks for the Links Bro


I will VOTE for Bush

[sincereheart]

Let's not follow the Bush Administration in trying to squash intelligent discourse.

Veiled barbs constitute 'intelligent discourse' in your book? Let's not follow Kerry and talk out of both sides of our mouth.

The debate we're having in this forum isn't because of traitors, but because debate is what makes our democracy great.

Actually, the debate is about which candidate is best suited to run this country. A traitor isn't.  

[2nd Timothy]

Actually, the debate is about which candidate is best suited to run this country. A traitor isn't.

Ouch...thats gotta sting!  

[Florida_Catholic]

Calling those who disagree traitors is exactly what I meant by "squashing intelligent discourse".  Hurling insults and labels rather than debating the logic in the issues is exactly what destroys our democracy.

I did indeed read the articles.  Did you look at the websites posted by others?  I found the argument to be flawed.  How many people do you except to die during a Bush reelection vs a Kerry election?  Why would you count an embryo to be a human life?  Do you have some scripture that is behind your thought that an embryo is a human life?

The leaders of the church have been wrong before, I think it's up to all Christians to study the issues, the scripture, and reflect and pray on what you know the facts to be.

[2nd Timothy]

How many people do you except to die during a Bush reelection vs a Kerry election?  Why would you count an embryo to be a human life?  Do you have some scripture that is behind your thought that an embryo is a human life?

Jer 1:5  Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Of course now I'm guessing we will see what squashing intelligent discourse really means.  

Grace and Peace!

[Florida_Catholic]

Thanks, 2nd Timothy for answering one of my questions with scripture.  I think that is exactly the type of discourse we need to have.  However I disagree that that scripture in any way says that life begins at conception.  If anything this says that God knows you even before conception.  It does not stipulate that your human life begins when you are conceived.

[2nd Timothy]

I disagree that that scripture in any way says that life begins at conception.  If anything this says that God knows you even before conception.  It does not stipulate that your human life begins when you are conceived.

A brief definition of know.

1. To perceive with certainty; to understand clearly; to have a clear and certain perception of truth, fact, or any thing that actually exists. To know a thing pre

includes all doubt or uncertainty of its existence. We know what we see with our eyes, or perceive by other senses.

3. To distinguish; as, to know one man from another.

:::wonders how much more God can know someone when He says he does:::

Jer 1:5  Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;

(notice WHO does the forming and where it is preformed)

The hebrew used for the word knew in this passage...

H3045
yaw-dah'
A primitive root; to know (properly to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively instruction, designation, punishment, etc.): - acknowledge, acquaintance (-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, [un-] awares, can [-not], certainly, for a certainty, comprehend, consider, X could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern, discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be [ig-] norant, instruct, kinsfolk, kinsman, (cause to, let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have [knowledge], (be, make, make to be, make self) known, + be learned, + lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, X prognosticator, regard, have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have [understanding], X will be, wist, wit, wot.

How sad that some willingly end what God knew (and formed), and cares about.


Continuing..
Jer 1:5b and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee

note again who sanctified what, and where

SANC'TIFIED, pp.

1. Made holy; consecrated; set apart for sacred services.

2. Affectedly holy.

Ending anything that God has made holy or set apart for sacred service should make one tremble.

Disagree if you like, but I for one will agree with He who forms life in the womb.  And you can bet my vote will reflect that view.

Grace and Peace!

[sincereheart]

Calling those who disagree traitors is exactly what I meant by "squashing intelligent discourse".  Hurling insults and labels rather than debating the logic in the issues is exactly what destroys our democracy.

Actually, Kerry isn't a traitor because he disagrees.   He's a traitor by the definition of the word:
1 : one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty
2 : one who commits treason

The 'logic in the issue' has been debated. Feel free to search it out.  

I did indeed read the articles.  Did you look at the websites posted by others?  I found the argument to be flawed.  How many people do you except to die during a Bush reelection vs a Kerry election?  Why would you count an embryo to be a human life?  Do you have some scripture that is behind your thought that an embryo is a human life?

The leaders of the church have been wrong before, I think it's up to all Christians to study the issues, the scripture, and reflect and pray on what you know the facts to be.

So why do you stay with a church if you disagree with it?  

[Florida_Catholic]

You've brought up a lot of definitions, but you haven't connected them with the discussion very well.  All the definitions of the words in the scripture do not speak to my question, where does the scripture talk about where your human life begins?  God knowing you before you are formed in the belly is totally different.

You might ask, is there ANY scripture that'd speak to that exact point?  I'd say yes.  Let's look to Genesis 2:5

"the LORD God formed the man [5] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."  This says to me that the point at which you are able to take your first breaths

Also, how has Kerry "betrayed another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty"?

That's exactly the point I made with the earlier article about how Bush has lied to Americans to make them believe that Saddam was involved in the September 11th attacks.

As to why I would stay with the church that I have disagreed with is exactly like the common Republican argument of "if you're unhappy with what's going on in the country, you should move to another country".  These are truly unpatriotic arguments that are meant to "squash intelligent discourse".  As to the church being wrong . . . are you saying you've agreed with everything the church has ever engaged in, say the Crusades for example?

[sincereheart]

Also, how has Kerry "betrayed another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty"?

As I previously stated: "The 'logic in the issue' has been debated. Feel free to search it out."  

As to why I would stay with the church that I have disagreed with is exactly like the common Republican argument of "if you're unhappy with what's going on in the country, you should move to another country".  These are truly unpatriotic arguments that are meant to "squash intelligent discourse".  As to the church being wrong . . . are you saying you've agreed with everything the church has ever engaged in, say the Crusades for example?

Really?  
Are the Crusades something happening NOW that I disagree with?  

Apparently, you consider 'intelligent discourse' to be the kind that agrees with you.

[sincereheart]

Job 31:15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?