what's wrong with voting Kerry?

[Florida_Catholic]

God willing, I will vote for Kerry on election day.

I am realizing more and more that President Bush and his administration has been lying about very important issues and taking advantage of good Christians.

There may be debate about what the Jesus teaches about some issues, but clearly lying is wrong.

I am one who thinks that our country's government depends on the public being honestly educated about current political events. Over the past four years the exact opposite has taken place.

Many Americans support attacking Iraq after believing a series of lies from the Bush Administration. As our source of information about terrorism, war, and foreign policy, the administration encourages a series of misconceptions that lead directly to their unfounded support.

http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Iraq/Media_10_02_03_Report.pdf

The report at that link is an interesting study. It demonstrates some grave misconceptions held in this country.

Many people think that Iraq was directly involved in the 9/11 attacks.

A good number have been fooled into thinking we have found stockpiles of WMD in Iraq since the war ended.

Numerous Americans think most people in the world were not opposed to the US going into Iraq even w/o UN approval.

It also shows some interesting facts, like you are much more likely to have these misconceptions if you primarily watch Fox News. We are constantly getting lies from numerous sources, it's very hard to tell what's true and what's not.  Though I found a lot of things I didn't agree with in Michael Moore's movie Faerenheit 9/11, I also found that it presents a lot of facts that are not commonly known unless you watch a ton of C-SPAN or something.  However, the more critical and scary fact that the study I was talking about demonstrates is that that you are tremendously more likely to support the war if you have these misconceptions. Duh! Who wouldn't support the President if they though that Iraq sent people to attack us on September 11th, that Hussein had tons of nuclear warheads, and that the rest of the world is wishing that we'd go in . . . just that pesky UN trying to hold everyone back.

The Iraq war is only one of a long string of deceptions. I cannot vote to reelect a liar into office. These sorts of lies hijack our government and render our democracy ineffective. How can you vote for the best candidate if you're not given the right facts?  How can you trust someone like this and how can you consider him moral?

[Chesed]

Florida Catholic -

Being a Catholic, do you allign yourself with the Catholic Church regarding the Church's views on abortion? How do you feel about Kerry's position on abortion? I believe that last I heard (he may have changed his mind by now) that he won't legislate against abortion. He would appoint Supreme Court justices who support abortion. I believe he would be against partial-birth infanticide, where doctors suck the brains out of a living baby after the head has passed through the gotcha11l canal. Many people don't realize this gruesome fact about partial birth abortion (infanticide). It is a medical procedure that is often used on babies that are found out to be down syndrome or other similar problems. It cannot be justified as saving the life of the mother, because the mother has to go through most of the birth anyway. It is infanticide. It should be banned.

you said,

It also shows some interesting facts, like you are much more likely to have these misconceptions if you primarily watch Fox News.

So you think we will be more informed watching Dan Rather of CBS (See BS)? Get real. Talk about lying, forging documents... could Fox be worse than this?

And about Iraq -

Did you know that when Kerry was asked if he would have still voted for the Iraq war, even knowing what we know now that they didn't have WMD that he said he would!!!! He realizes like many other Americans do that Saddam and the US is better off where he is now.

Yes, I agree that the US was misinformed about WMD, but we had every reason to believe they were there. (I would not be at all suprised if we end up finding that Saddam moved them to Syria.) Both Pres. Clinton and Senator Kerry believed Saddam had WMD. And Saddam DID have them, and used them on the Kurds.

I don't believe Bush lied about WMD, there is a difference between LYING and being MISINFORMED.

Speaking about being misinformed, I wouldn't treat Michael Moore's movie as fact. Many "facts" he presented in his movie have been disproved by the bi-partisan 911 commission. You can buy the report for $10. Maybe you should read it.

And let's talk about lying....

John Kerry says he is for the "little guy." I assume he means me. I'm part of a middle class household. John and Teresa Kerry make a combined income of 6.8 million a year. Guess how much they paid in taxes last year? 12 % !!!! How much did George and Laura Bush pay in taxes last year? 30 %. How much does the average "little guy" pay in taxes? 20 %. When John Kerry says he wants to tax more the "wealthy 1 %" obviously he doesn't mean himself, as he can hire tax attorneys and CPA's to get out of paying his fair share.

Well, you should be proud to be voting for the "more intellectual" candidate. He would have to be intellectual because he must have 2 brains, one for each position on an issue.

You said,

Numerous Americans think most people in the world were not opposed to the US going into Iraq even w/o UN approval.

So what's so great about the UN anyway? Why do you think they would help us? This is one sKerry thing I find about Kerry, he wants to give UN more soverignty over us. Who runs the UN? Arabs. Who are the terrorists trying to destroy us? Arabs. (Not to say that all arabs are terrorists, but it is disconcerting, isn't it? )  Aside from this, the UN wants the US to be weaker, both militarily and monitarily. Doesn't this concern you? It should.

You said,  

God willing, I will vote for Kerry on election day.

God willing? You sound unsure. Of course you are voting in Florida, no wonder. May you get confused by your ballot and mark the wrong box

Take care,
Chesed

(PS, did you know that they changed the voting day to Nov. 3rd? They're doing it to trick the terrorists, pass it on to your other friends voting for Kerry.)

[Brother Love]

God willing, I will vote for Kerry on election day.

I am realizing more and more that President Bush and his administration has been lying about very important issues and taking advantage of good Christians.

There may be debate about what the Jesus teaches about some issues, but clearly lying is wrong.

I am one who thinks that our country's government depends on the public being honestly educated about current political events. Over the past four years the exact opposite has taken place.

Many Americans support attacking Iraq after believing a series of lies from the Bush Administration. As our source of information about terrorism, war, and foreign policy, the administration encourages a series of misconceptions that lead directly to their unfounded support.

http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Iraq/Media_10_02_03_Report.pdf

The report at that link is an interesting study. It demonstrates some grave misconceptions held in this country.

Many people think that Iraq was directly involved in the 9/11 attacks.

A good number have been fooled into thinking we have found stockpiles of WMD in Iraq since the war ended.

Numerous Americans think most people in the world were not opposed to the US going into Iraq even w/o UN approval.

It also shows some interesting facts, like you are much more likely to have these misconceptions if you primarily watch Fox News. We are constantly getting lies from numerous sources, it's very hard to tell what's true and what's not.  Though I found a lot of things I didn't agree with in Michael Moore's movie Faerenheit 9/11, I also found that it presents a lot of facts that are not commonly known unless you watch a ton of C-SPAN or something.  However, the more critical and scary fact that the study I was talking about demonstrates is that that you are tremendously more likely to support the war if you have these misconceptions. Duh! Who wouldn't support the President if they though that Iraq sent people to attack us on September 11th, that Hussein had tons of nuclear warheads, and that the rest of the world is wishing that we'd go in . . . just that pesky UN trying to hold everyone back.

The Iraq war is only one of a long string of deceptions. I cannot vote to reelect a liar into office. These sorts of lies hijack our government and render our democracy ineffective. How can you vote for the best candidate if you're not given the right facts?  How can you trust someone like this and how can you consider him moral?

"FOUR"Thumbs DOWN

[sincereheart]

Quote from Chesed:
"Of course you are voting in Florida, no wonder. May you get confused by your ballot and mark the wrong box"
 

 

[just1man]

I hope everyone will vote, no matter whom they vote for. Please take advantage of your right to do so. So many others do not have that option. Remember... This isn't a test with one right answer. If you care enough, you will educate yourself with FACTS and cast a vote for the candidate that best meets your needs.
 This has been a difficult task for many and you are not alone in your uncertainty. I feel that quoting religion out of one side of our mouths and then supporting war (or a candidate because of war) out of the other is hypocritical. If I support a candidate because of his stance on say abortion but ignore the fact that that same candidate invades a Country and ignores the religious beliefs of those people, it would be hypocritical.
With so many issues facing this great country (USA) I have to ask if everyone has just forgotten about these issues? Is war and abortion all that matters?
 Facts we all know;
1.) this is a two party system and the best candidates for both parties have been chosen. These are great men, involved in politics and who have made it there lifes work to serve this country. I know I owe them both the respect that comes from such a life, mistakes and all. Like me, I hope they learn from them.
2.) election will take place in 19 days, with or without your vote.
3.) the past four years have brought many new terms and focuses to America that we have never faced before. Terrorism and the fears associated, these issues are cleary the focus of the majority of voters. I ask those of you who feel that way,
 If the war was to end in 6 months, what do you know about your candidate and what they offer beyond war?
4.) How can we allow our religion to lead our vote in a country that is so diverse? If we live in the USA and if we believe in the rights of freedom, we have to be willing to if not understand then atleast allow those who's beliefs differ to live as freely as we do.
5.) If you are a fair voter, if you search out the facts and educate yourself, you will know how to cast your vote. All the nonsence and rediculous remarks people make IE; "what if Jesus had been aborted" are simply appauling. The same people who make these comments believe in medical science but don't support the facts when it is a political issue. If a NON catholic woman is raped, are you telling me that was "Gods plan"? I think the only one in that situation that needs to worry about answering to God, would be the rapist. If a woman from another religion is pregnant and in a car accident, the doctors determine that Mother will die if they dont operate and if they do, the fetus will be lost, how can you chose? Would it not be just as murderous not to save the Mother? This fetus may not survive either way.
6.) We have experienced what is now almost four years of President Bush and I don't know about you but I still have no feeling of being any safer than I was on 9/11. I am looking forward to an end to this war not another 4 year term of negativity and deceit.
I in no way want to discourage anyone from voting and in no way am I trying to get you to vote for a specific candidate.
 I am merely offering an opinion and hope to see you at the voting both!
Scott

[Brother Love]

Quote from Chesed:
"Of course you are voting in Florida, no wonder. May you get confused by your ballot and mark the wrong box"
 

 

LOL



<))><

[Florida_Catholic]

Bush isn't just misinformed, he's clearly lied.

The primary lie to remember is that he's misled so many Americans into believing that Iraq was linked to the September 11th Attacks!  That's totally false - the 9/11 report confirms that.  Faerenheit 9/11 is a movie that illuminates facts that are not learned from watching Fox News.  If you want balance you have to look at all the angles.

Bush is taking advantage of Christians for their votes by playing on the abortion issue.  He's had 4 years with a Republican Congress, as have all the Republican presidents since Roe v Wade in 1973.  Abortion as a whole is settled law; considering it otherwise would be like voting against Bush-Cheney because Cheney opposed the Equal Rights Amendment.  That's settled law, and has been for decades.  He didn't do anything to stop embryonic stem cell research and he hasn't put any more funding into it . . . talk about not taking a stand.  He's not defending the lives of the embryos and he's not supporting the research either.
This is why I'm voting on what is at issue in this election, I cannot in good conscience support a President who has lied to the people and totally undermined democracy.  I also find many of his policies anti-Christian, such as but not limited to the war in Iraq, taxes, and healthcare.

[Marv]

So what would people say is the correct Christian position on launching preemptive strikes against other countries?

Any scripture?

Saddam Hussein would have been gone a long time ago without the aid of the US.  People heavily involved in keeping him in power included George H. W. Bush, Dick Cheney, and Donald Rumsfeld.

Was it proper from a Christian perspective to supply Saddam with arms and keep him in power when he was using poisonous gas almost daily on Iranians and Kurds?  Or is the current problems the US having due to past behavior by these men?

Any scripture?

Is it proper from a Christian perspective for the US to be running up debt at the rate it is?

Any scripture?

Is it proper for either candidate to belong to Skull and Bones?

Any scripture?

I'm not asking for your opinions, because frankly as a Christian, I don't rely on your opinions, I rely on Scripture.  So could you help explain these things presently happening based on scripture.

Thank you,

Marv

[sincereheart]

[Florida_Catholic]

[Brother Love]

Floridarc, your killing me, LOL

[sincereheart]

 

[Florida_Catholic]

Let's not follow the Bush Administration in trying to squash intelligent discourse.

The debate we're having in this forum isn't because of traitors, but because debate is what makes our democracy great.

[Lynx]

I started my search this week a Kerry supporter.  I've read uncountable websites along this subject, because my wife is voting for Bush because of Kerrys stance on abortion. My intent on researching this was to find reasons to argue with my wife to vote for Kerry.

I despise Bush, and it made me feel physically ill to even consider voting for him, but after everything I've read, it really comes down to one simple thing.  Being a Catholic, I cannot vote for someone who is pro-abortion.  Kerry is. As much as I can't stand Bush, I know that by voting for Kerry I will be supporting abortion. By voting for a third party I will technically aiding Kerry by not giving Bush my vote, and thus be technically aiding abortion.

All the other things I can't stand about Bush don't outweigh the millions of unborn children Kerry will allow to die. Even when I look for arguments that there's no guarantee that Bush will be able to stop abortion, (certainly he Can't stop it alone) I can't find enough to support me to vote for Kerry because of the simple fact that by voting for Kerry (or by Not voting for Bush) my vote will be For abortion.

Now, when I did finally admit to myself that I Did have to vote for Bush because of all this, I felt comforted; A couple of days ago I felt Sick at the thought that I was being "forced" to vote for Bush because of my faith, but I'm now at peace with it.

Florida Catholic, I can only give you the advice to search and read more about it. Perhaps you might even try searching for reasons to prove you should vote for Kerry, as I did, and yet still find the truth. Perhap you'll find yourself led to vote for Kerry after all, but I'll leave you with these few links to start with, or you could just read the Bible and find the Truth there, eh? ;o)  there's still time before the election.

read this thread:
http://www.catholic-pages.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2770&whichpage=1
this site,
http://www.priestsforlife.org/elections

these are just the last 2 I came across, there's certainly Many Many more,
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=voting+for+kerry+is+a+sin

[Florida_Catholic]

If you still believe by voting for Bush you'd be voting for a more moral leader, I don't think you've done a very effective search of these candidates.  Just consider what you typed into to google to find these webpages, "Voting for Kerry is a Sin".  That is the string that's going to get you the most convincing string of arguments to support Kerry.

Bush has been effective in tricking many Americans into believing that which is not true.  Just take a look at:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-10-04-alqaeda-saddam_x.htm

Too many Americans have been tricked into believing that Saddam was involved in the attacks of September 11th.  

Similarly, Bush has tricked many into thinking he's going to do something about abortion.  He said something about balancing ethics and science in the second debate.  He's had four years and hasn't really done anything . . . and I don't think Kerry has any big plans on changing abortion rules either.  MAYBE voting for the third candidate mentioned in your article is a more moral vote (I just don't know enough about him) . . . but the argument can't really be made for Bush vs Kerry.