what's wrong with voting Kerry?

[nChrist]

Marv,

Alliances change. Much of the world was allied wih Russia during WWII for survival, but things did switch back and forth since then. That's reality.

France was allied with us in the first Gulf War but not the second. Anyone with any common sense can figure out why. They were selling arms to Iraq in violations of UN sanctions. There were no sanctions when the US sold weapons to Iraq. That doesn't necessarily make it right, but the area was a powder-keg and our interests were in danger, including Israel. By the way, George W. Bush didn't sell weapons to Iraq, nor did he violate any UN sanctions. However, the whole UN thing is a joke and a disgrace, completely corrupt.

If you want blunt reality, here it is:  you can sometimes give a wild dog food, and it will turn on you and bite you. If you keep trying to pet it on the head, you will draw back a bloody stub.

Tom

[nChrist]

Marv,

By the way, we also helped and sold arms to Afghanistan at one time. That was when they were being invaded by Russia. Well, years later, they became the Taliban, the home of Bin Laden, and terrorist central for the world.

Tom

[DeLenn]

Bush absolutely can make abortion illegal.  With Justice Remquist critically ill and all of the other Supreme Court Justices over 60, the next president will put justices on the supreme court who will either overturn Roe Vs Wade or keep it law for the next 40 years or more.  Kerry has pledged to appoint only Pro-choice justices.

[graphxguy]

Whoever wins, the King is still on the throne. And He knows all that is going on and needs to be done. Hallelujah!

[Patzt]

Whoever wins, the King is still on the throne. And He knows all that is going on and needs to be done. Hallelujah!

Amen!

[Marv]

As for changing alliances, the very people who were instrumental in keeping Saddam in power, in arming him, in protecting him are the people in the current administration.  His violations were significantly fewer when we invaded than when we funded and armed him.   He was using gas almost daily when Rumsfeld traveled to Iraq to help normalize relations.  We gave him Billions$, we even retrofitted helicopters for him because pilots were getting sick applying "insecticides."

Please explain to people in the Middle East why it was okay when Saddam killed them with poison gas during the Reagan years, but he had to be immediately removed years later when he hadn't attacked anyone for years.  A couple of Bible verses would go a long way.

Here we are now voting on leaving the very same bunch in power, and the rational is they are good Christians.  Please explain to the Kurds and the Iranians why these same good Christians had no real moral problem with Saddam gassing their families.  And I'm not talking after the Gulf War, before that.  Since we had already been at war with him, we had misgivings about his gas after the war.

By the way, reports say at least one of the companies that provided poison gas to Saddam was a US company, anyone got any info on that company being prosecuted?  I can't find it.

If there were no UN resoulutions, it was because the US used its power to block them.  Now we send people to lecture the UN on morals.  

You are correct in saying that George W. Bush didn't sell arms to Iraq, you have to go back to George H. W. Bush.  Or you could move across the hall to Cheney's office who was doing business with Iraq until the day he resigned to become Vice-President.

The white house today is full of guys who have been feeding the Middle East trouble for many years, the sooner they are out of there and down the road, the sooner we can start to really make some headway.  Every country in the Middle East has seen these guys before, backroom oil or weapon deals, funding radicals to bring down governments, proping up dirty dictators as long as they are "our" dirty dictator.

We haven't a moral leg to stand on.  The sooner we realize that and repent the better.  I believe the place to start is with a housecleaning in Washington.  I've said before that Kerry wouldn't be my first choice, probably not even second, but that choice was made already.  

I just can't look at my two kids and vote to leave this bunch in the White House.  I don't think Bush would be that bad with a different administration, but that isn't going to happen either.  I fundamentally believe that the current bunch in power significantly raises the chances of all out war in the very near future, not because we've been the moral leader of the world, we've been willing to accept any dirty dead as long as it helps us in the short term.

I know some will bring up abortion, but remember, the Justices that gave you Roe v Wade were 5 Republicans and 2 Democrats with 1 Republican and 1 Democrat against.  Roe v Wade isn't going away with 9 Republican Justices, you could just as well get going on the Constitutional Amendment now.   The majority opinion was based on a conservative interpretation.  

I saw what happened in my state, used to be lots of abortion bills every session as long as the legislature was pretty evenly divided, now Republican supermajority in both houses and a Republican governor and NOTHING, not a thing.  All that changed was instead of "Vote pro-life for the state legislature, it's a matter of life-and-death."  Now it's "Vote for Bush, we can't do anything."   They didn't even try, they just wanted the votes.

I know many of you disagree, that's your perogative.  If Bush wins I can alway tell myself Edwards will be President four years sooner.

I would just ask anyone that wants to support the current administration to read the Saddam Hussein Sourcebook at the National Security Archive.
http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/

It probably won't change your mind, but at least you can know what you support.

Marv

[Marv]

Oh, I almost forgot, I wonder how different history would have been if we hadn't invaded Russia at the end of WWI.  It certainly colored our relationship with them for many years.  They never did trust us after our quick switch.   If I remember correctly, the rational was that the Russian people would be so overjoyed at seeing liberators bringing them democracy they would throw down their weapons, throw roses and kiss our troops.

Too bad Bush was sleeping that day in history class.

Marv

[DeLenn]

Do you remember when Clinton was president? He vetoed every pro-life law that came up. Kerry will do the same. There is a law that will be coming up about funding crisis pregnancy centers, which provide housing, material help, and counseling to women in difficult pregnancies.  If it passes, Kerry will most likely veto it. Plus, he has publically pledged to appoint justices to the supreme court who will make sure Roe v Wade is not overturned.  He has said so.  He will make sure that any judge he appoints is so pro-abortion that, republican or democrat, he or she will never rule to overturn Roe V Wade.  
Kerry originally supported the war in Iraq, remember.  He voted to invade Iraq, and then he voted to cut off funding to our troops, denying them the equipment they needed to fight the war and protect themselves. The war he helped send them to.  He publically stated that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq in the beginning of the war but now claims that Bush made that up.  He is a hypocrite and a liar. He claims that Bush alienated France and Germany when both those countries were bribed by Saddam Hussein with millions skimmed off the Money For Oil project and had already agreed to oppose any invastion of Iraq.  It's a big scandal now in the UN. Kerry ignores this and accuses Bush of alienating other countries when those other countries were against us already. Kerry is a liar and an opportunist.

[nChrist]

Marv,

Vote your conscience, however you wish, and I'll vote mine.

I really have no desire to read any further twisted distortions. I'll be voting for George W. Bush, and I'll sleep fine after I vote.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Marv]

Hi,

The National Security Archive is documents that have been obtained through the freedom of information act.  They aren't partisan, they have other things like how the Johnson administration lied to get us more involved in Vietnam.  How Ollie North knew about drug smuggling to fund Sandinistas etc.  

That's the beauty of the site.  It's not some spin room to distort things.

Marv

[Symphony]

Well P. Bush is definitely closer to a respect for human life, and all that that means.  Kerry and his ilk are from the same cloth as the Clintons; look at how they treated the White House when they left, four years ago - they trashed the place, booby trapping computers, etc.  Not surprisingly.


Still, tho, as graphx above says:

   Whoever wins, the King is still on the throne. And He knows all that is going on and needs to be done. Hallelujah!


They've found, buried eight feet deep in the volcanic ash of MT. Vesuvius, in Pompey, and Herculaneum, from 79 A.D., the hollowed out molds left by corpses trying to escape - a well-to-do lady's skeleton, still with the gold rings and bracelets on her wrists and finger bones.

And where the beach use to be, in the Bay of Naples, the skeleton of a Roman soldier, still with hilt from his sword and scabbard, his carpenter's tools, and skeleton of his horse.  Forensics aged the man at 42 - with sword wound still in a leg femur bone, his right arm, the sword arm, twice the bone size of his lesser used left arm, with fused lower spine vertabrae - they surmized he is constant pain from that - the life of a soldier in Rome, shortly after Christ.

But they also discovered in city streets, on the walls, preserved by the volcanic ash, billboards advertising for an election - they were in the middle of an election when the volcano hit, and buried them all!!

So we needn't take our politics too seriously to heart, I don't think.  It may be important but, I think for a Christian, there may be more expedient things to be thinking about.